What goes to Character Sheets?

Re: ~Hello83433 on their reply here.

There might be a confusion on what a "biodata" is, and it was highly likely that some relevant info was accidentally deleted because of such "mass biodata removal"

You keep on saying that biodata should be cut, but let's take this from another perspective; one aspect that may cause confusion is... just what exactly are examples of a "biodata"? It may be possible to confuse something as "biodata" that can be deleted, when it's actually a relevant information that should be kept (as it helps in describing the character in some way).

Or what if, the text formatting itself may cause such confusion as well?

In the first place, "biodata" information on this wiki is inconsistently handled, looking at two more examples

As a follow-up to my previous recent post, it is very much obvious by now that I keep on insisting at least an "Origin" line or sentence to be kept depending on a case-by-case basis, as many "crossover" and "multiverse" works use this information in some way... Especially if there's already an existing TV Tropes page for that "Origin".

And I'll still use Fate/Grand Order character pages for now to keep asking why the "Cleaning Up Lengthy Character Descriptions" project suddenly deleted that part on that game's character pages. This time, let's compare it to something else that also uses an "Origin" information but had it presented differently.

What I noticed when comparing the above two pages, and why the "biodata" info of ''Fate Grand Order" shouldn't have been cut wholesale.

• Right now, all but the Voiced by: line is present in FGO Beowulf's folder. The Origin: line (which had a link to this wiki's Beowulf page) got caught in the deletion most likely because it's formatted in the same way, and is grouped in the same block as the character's "gameplay-related" info such as Rarity:. Imagine if I want a direct access to the TV Tropes page of the Beowulf epic poem, I could simply click on what's beside the Origin: line. What if I do not know which myth or original source is FGO Beowulf based from, does it mean I have to manually type it or search it, when a link on the page itself should've been just fine?
• The link to Spider-Verse Miles Morales' "Origin" work is not formatted in the same way as his Homeworld:, Voiced by: and Appearances: line... For some reason, it was actually potholed to his name header (Miles Morales / Spider-Man II). Does this mean the clean-up thread would've deleted the page's link to the comic book Miles Morales, just as it did with Beowulf on the FGO folder? If so, how in the description would I know that Spider-Verse Miles Morales originated from this comic book? Again, information like "Origin" is relevant to a character's description for those within a "crossover" or "multiverse" work. Hence, at one point, I suggested a case-by-case look instead of just "mass deleting".
• Information such as a character's origin is also as valuable as a voice actor. Just as a Voice Actor: increases the "Related Pages" count of a Creator Page on the TV Tropes wiki, having an "Origin" line also increases the "Related Pages" count of the source material's page. Go to the Related Pages of the Beowulf literature now, for example. There's no longer a Characters.Fate Grand Order Berserkers A To F page there, it lost one link (that was on the character's "Origin" line)... Imagine if this happens to more source materials' pages because of "biodata" being cut wholesale from hundreds of playable characters' descriptions.

---

TL;DR You keep on saying that biodata should be cut, and that there are also tropers who agreed with you on that... But I see a different part of the issue - the "Character Description" clean-up thread has actually deleted something that's more than a "mere" biodata... because it was mistaken as a "biodata".

Edited by DanteVin on Oct 31st 2023 at 6:34:59 PM

With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation

IMHO it seems to be a matter of confusion over syntax, given that what some tropers consider "biodata" may actually contain details too important to delete, such as, in the case of Fate/Grand Order, a Servant's real-world and Nasuverse origins (which oftentimes have their entries on this very wiki).

Also, to repeat an earlier post I kept editing, we have to keep reminding ourselves that FGO is, first and foremost, a gacha game. Speaking as a long-time observer of such games, dating back from the late Brave Frontier in 2013, these tend to have dozens, if not hundreds, of playable characters (or at least alternate gameplay styles, and not counting "evolutionary" lines) which are periodically introduced, and there are many valid ways to arrange their order. Right now story-based sorting is the norm, but even that isn't always feasible, so tropers tend to resort to certain gameplay criteria, such as rarity, element, weapon type, role, etc. (either entirely or as an auxiliary, such as in the case of FGO, where all other Servants apart from Mash, who is already counted at Chaldea, the player's faction and thus the first in the characters roster, are sorted according to Class), which I can call "quasi-metadata" because they are readily available from the UI, as well as heavily advertised on promotional materials and/or official social media accounts (and come to think of it, story-based criteria are also a form of quasi-metadata).

---

For another example of how to trim gacha-game biodata to the quasi-metadata, I can use the example of Ningguang from Genshin Impact, courtesy of a post from the other thread by Libraryseraph: We can limit Ningguang's biodata to the following details: The former three are such quasi-metadata I kept talking about, while the latter, though mostly for aesthetic purposes, thematically fits the game's stellar motifs, is readily introduced in the game's social media accounts, and is also frequently tied to a character's background, aesthetics, and/or personality (e.g., Ningguang's Constellation can allude both to the Jade Chamber, her floating mansion, as well as to the balancing act she has to constantly undertake as a prominent political leader, while that of the Raiden Shogun, "Imperatrix Umbrosa" [Shadow Empress], is a foreshadowing to the revelation that she was but the Body Double for her late twin sister Makoto, the original Electro Archon). Also, in Genshin characters are sorted according to their nationality, followed by their affiliation whenever available, themselves quasi-metadata (specifically for Ningguang, her nationality is Liyue, and her affiliation the Qixing, both of which have their own pages); in the event the sorting order changes, their nationality and/or affiliation can be demoted into the biodata section, and another (like, say, element or weapon type), can be likewise promoted from it.

Edited by zero5889 on Oct 31st 2023 at 8:36:15 PM

Slowly losing my mind, Bocchi-style.

Regarding constellations, my biggest concern is that non-fans of Genshin wouldn't be able to understand why a constellation is there in the biodata section, as not a lot of other characters from other works have constellations. Sure, a lot of people here know what a constellation is, but how does a constellation relates to a Genshin character is kinda something a non-fan wouldn't know I feel. And it's kind a similar issue to what some people stated regarding FGO Command Cards (though it's less severe I feel, as "command cards" are something I don't think are brought-up a lot outside of video games such as FGO).

Also, elemental bursts can be moved to a Limit Break trope entry I feel.

Rarity, elemental powers, and weapons are very common stuff in other video games, as I don't think non-fans of Genshin would need a different trope to understand them. I feel like it might better to have a slightly more detailed Fictional Constellations entry for each character on their TVT profile as well as a more general Fictional Constellations entry on the main Genshin page as well, but that is just my opinion, and there could be others that disagree with me.

Edited by MummyGaGa on Oct 31st 2023 at 11:52:26 AM

BTW, please call me Jake.

The fact that each character has an associated Constellation is already covered in the "Cosmic Motifs" trope in Genshin's main tropes section.

That said, so far there is no entry for "Fictional Constellations," though I can also insert it to add at least some justification for their presence in character biodata, which can go like this: As for the other quasi-metadata...

• Rarity: On account of Genshin Impact being a gacha game, this is a very common element in such games, so this no longer needs justification.
• Element: Already covered under the "Elemental Powers" trope:

• Weapon Type: Recently several weapon tropes have been deprecated, though I could propose adding a bullet point in the "An Adventurer Is You" trope:

---

Update
I am not exactly keen on adding the "Fictional Constellations" trope on every playable character's list (any more than giving a boilerplate description of their element) given that there are already existing tropes that better capture the significance of their Constellations (e.g., Animal Motifs, Flower Motifs, Meaningful Name, Rule of Symbolism, Foreshadowing, etc.).

Edited by zero5889 on Nov 2nd 2023 at 12:38:21 AM

Slowly losing my mind, Bocchi-style.

I'm very glad for this thread because I've been slowly working on Characters.SMPLive for a while now and it's been bugging me how scattered information is on setting up character sheets.

I see a lot of Gacha Game discussion above, so I want to chime in with standard format I see in another medium/genre! I see that in most SMP character pages folders typically contain a transparent render of the character's Minecraft skin, with labelnotes to open notable alternate skins if they have any.

Then it's usually just:

If there's a unique gimmick to the series, that might also be listed, like on Characters.Origins SMP, where the character's Origin (basically power/species) is listed.

I like this format a lot because it means other biographical information is either relegated to the character's introductory text, or shown in the trope list itself, rather than having a long indented block of information, but I know that different mediums end up with different needs.

Oh yeah, and Characters.Dream SMP and Characters.SMPEarth include flags for factions under their headers, which is nice and gives a good visual depiction of the group before getting into specific characters. SMPEarth also includes the faction's in-game tagline as the caption.

---

I like having alternate depictions present as images on the page, but I would agree that a lot of Gacha Game pages (and comics, but I don't go there) tend to suffer from bloating. I feel like there should be a limit of some kind where it's like. If you have more than 5 images there better be a good reason, because otherwise it's just overkill. I agree that we don't need every outfit ever for a character on the page.

In SMPs I generally only see alternate skins being included if they're extremely different, plot-relevant or used for a prolonged amount of time.

I like pages like Characters.V Shojo English Ironmouse that doesn't include all of her million models, just the important ones.

Edited by Serilly on Nov 1st 2023 at 1:02:55 AM

LP Deprecation Cleanup | Ask me about SMPLive

Seen the post, and no objections, too, though I would like to emphasize keeping the biodata selection process a largely internal affair per given work depending on their needs.

Regarding gameplay description paragraphs, its necessity and/or length often boils down to just how technically demanding a given video game requires players to be, such as fighting games (e.g., Street Fighter, Tekken, Guilty Gear, the Soul Series, The King of Fighters, and Dissidia Fantasy [both the 2008 and 2015 incarnations, as well as the Opera Omnia RPG gacha spinoff of the latter]), MMORPGs (e.g., Ragnarok Online and Final Fantasy XIV), or even recent RPG gacha games (e.g., the aforementioned Opera Omnia, Fate/Grand Order, Arknights, Genshin Impact, and Honkai: Star Rail).

Slowly losing my mind, Bocchi-style.

Seconding keeping bio data a per work thing rather than a strictly standardized template because as my earlier post says, different mediums tend to have different relevant bio data. But still support cutting down on redundant and story-irrelevant information

LP Deprecation Cleanup | Ask me about SMPLive

Now that Mrph1 has clarified that the related Lengthy Character Descriptions clean-up thread is "not intended to be a complete purge of templates and biodata"... I agree with the above two, as I'd also suggest that if other tropers ever feel a need to trim biodata and templates in compliance with this wiki's guidelines, it's better to summon those who are more familiar with the specific work first.

I mean... that way, if the information in the character's "description" or template can be salvaged as a trope example anyway, it's better to let someone who knows the work do the trimming and moving.

Edited by DanteVin on Nov 2nd 2023 at 8:30:22 PM

With Great Power, Comes Great Motivation

I'd add the same caveat just posted to the other thread.

We need the expert knowledge of the tropers who know the work, to make sure we get it right.

But we also need the end result to be clear and self-explanatory for a casual reader who's never even heard of the game before.

So there's a conversation and a balance there. Character pages (not just for games) are especially prone to falling into Fan Myopia and assuming readers know the setting/franchise and all the other characters.

At the very least we can help introduce some of the elements seen in the character sheets' biodata sections through descriptions and/or tropes at the given work's main page (e.g., for gacha games, "An Adventurer Is You" can introduce certain quasi-metadata, while for sports series we can add a link to the related sport's Useful Notes page).

Slowly losing my mind, Bocchi-style.

Just something to note: in Honkai Star Rail for example, the characters' rarity, "path" and damage type are advertised alongside them, so they at least should be "public knowledge" enough to be put in biodata

I'd like to see something people can vote on, even if it's "discuss per-work basis", so then the conversation can be rerouted to the cleanup thread with it in mind.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I feel information that is within each biodata should be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Edited by MummyGaGa on Nov 5th 2023 at 12:12:57 PM

BTW, please call me Jake.

IMHO, character page cleanup ought to be on a case-to-case basis, so at least the people who have more intimate knowledge of a given work can discuss how to balance being informative and casual-friendly.

Right now, I'm restoring some of the deleted biodata entries at Genshin Impact (i.e., rarity, element, and weapon type, as well as Constellation for lore purposes, and release date out of consideration for the fact that, as a gacha, the game is being constantly updated so at least tropers have an idea how the game evolved; the others can be discussed in the game's own Discussions and/or Forum pages), as well as the descriptions (albeit trimmed this time around; it's gonna take some time, but a touch better than a wholesale cut).

Edited by zero5889 on Nov 6th 2023 at 11:42:18 PM

Slowly losing my mind, Bocchi-style.

Can I start doing it for Honkai Star Rail pages?

I would be wary of restoring stuff until you have staff's go ahead?

LP Deprecation Cleanup | Ask me about SMPLive

I'd be tempted to put proposals in the other thread (this one is focused on policy, not cleanup), along with explanation of why the elements being restored are relevant and how we're making them clear for readers who are new to the work.

Not sure we need formal crowners if we can get a consensus via thread, but let's see how it goes.

You mean ~Mrph1's e:

Personally I'd first list all "data" that was common on Honkai pages, and let people (the more the better) discuss/vote for each row if it's valuable for a casual reader.

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 7th 2023 at 3:48:25 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I should probably add some caveats -

That last post was definitely mod hat off, as is this one, but I don't think the mods want to get into the detail of this if we can avoid it.

As long as changes are not contradicting Administrivia policy, it's usually (imo) better if users reach a consensus rather than mods deciding.

The one thing I'd keep stating is that it has to work for casual readers, though. That's a core principle of the wiki. So if the users making changes are those who know the works (which seems likely), it's worth getting a second opinion from readers who don't.

Well, if I could throw a couple of examples from pages I've worked on:

• A bunch of the character sheets for D&D-based CRPGs — e.g. Neverwinter Nights 2, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous, Baldur's Gate III — have stuff like race/species, character class, and Character Alignment, stuff that has both story and gameplay impact.
• For the Reign of the Seven Spellblades character sheet, I threw in a note on the characters' First Appearances across the LN, manga, and anime continuities. This is meant to be cross-referenced with a chronology key I added to the top of the article to make understanding the series' timeline easier, since every character advances a grade year roughly every three Light Novel volumes.

But I'm frankly baffled that minutiae like a character's blood type and, what, three sizes? is considered worth including on a character sheet, especially above the example section. That strikes me as irrelevant Flavor Text. And we don't need a character's entire biography above the example section, just a short paragraph to lay out the basics about who they are and what they're like.

I'd argue that "if there's an official biodata and it mentions those minutiae, then they must be relevant to the character in question"

But I guess, in practice, we may not need everything inside the biodata - just a few most relevant items in them

It may be relevant to characters as background color, or might be relevant to gameplay... but is it relevant to tropes?

Lots of series have "official" information about a character that isn't really relevant outside of a strategy guide or character book.

One criteria should be if a casual viewer/player needs to know that information. Like a casual Pokémon player should probably know that Electabuzz is Electric-type (and it'd be hard to describe them without mentioning that), but OTOH it's base Defense stat is pretty irrelevant it's 57.

For gacha games, I'd definitely say that things like illustrators are important information, when they don't have a single house style or something. Both for noting any trends or similarities within the franchise, and if the illustrator's got external work that is itself tropeworthy... which is kind of easier for anyone going through to note if we stuck the illustrator actually there. Same reason we put VA's and stuff on character sheets.

Avatar Source