Character pronoun and identity discussion

I won't go into specifics like which character, but now that this review from Laughing Place directly confirms that one of the characters has an arc of realizing they're non-binary, I think I'm safe to name the upcoming work: Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock. Characters.Fraggle Rock is used for both original and reboot despite having separate continuities, with little issue so far up until potentially now. (The other character involved is a Canon Foreigner not from the original, so unlike the other character a change of pronouns won't be an issue).

Edited by AlmightyKingPrawn on Mar 25th 2024 at 3:52:32 PM

Since it's separate continuities, I would say use pronouns that pertain to whichever work you're describing per entry. If it's an entry that describes both characters and not referencing any specific events, I'm torn — one could go with the original work's pronouns since it's the first one to establish the trope, or go with "they" since it's gender-neutral anyway.

The character's so consistently being referred to as he/him by the producers in interviews released today even when they seem to be teasing that he's non-binary that I'm starting to think that his pronouns are not changing, as they're saying a lot of stuff about how he will learn to accept himself for who he really is in a really supportive way where it would be weird to refer to him incorrectly. Sorry for a bunch of confusion about nothing lol. It really was a genuine question as to whether we should soon transition to using new pronouns for (basically confirmed now down to John Tartaglia describing the scene where he comes out to Gobo, so I believe I can say his name) Wembley based on the leaks, but, while I could be proven wrong in 4 days, he seems to be a he/him enby.

Edit: Based on what I was just told, uhh... we'll still wait and see.

Edited by AlmightyKingPrawn on Mar 25th 2024 at 6:28:00 AM

For whatever reason, I have the ability to stream the new Fraggle Rock: Back to the Rock season 2 hours before midnight even though it technically isn't Friday yet. I've only watched the first episode so far, and I'm trying to keep myself unspoiled so I don't know how soon or late into the season Wembley comes out, but I'll keep you guys posted. If this isn't just a "me" fluke, feel free to investigate yourself.

Appreciate the updates, but I think you'll complicate matters less if you just wait until you've seen the episode to clarify things, since nobody seemed aware of the leak until you brought it up (and we couldn't discuss its contents anyway) and it may end up being a non-issue if he still uses he/him anyway.

Just watched the episode and I... don't know their pronouns? They are weirdly not referred to by their pronouns at any point after coming out. This question is plaguing the Muppet Wiki right now too, so we may have to wait for someone to finish the season. The canon foreigner that was also leaked to come out as non-binary, however, does explicitly go by they/them. I'm off to, at the moment, at least correct Pogey's pronouns on all pages.

Edited by AlmightyKingPrawn on Mar 28th 2024 at 1:48:30 PM

On... all pages? Even the ones referring to the character before the reboot?

Do you see why I advocated for a split?

Pogey is a Canon Foreigner. They never appeared in anything until Back to the Rock.

Anyways, I've been told on the Discord that Wembley still goes by he/him, and that that's why the Fraggle fandom is so much more focused on correcting Pogey's pronouns than Wembley's. I'm inclined to believe them because for what is essentially Wembley's gender dysphoria song, the creatures giving the back up vocals are asking "who is he?", and, while he hasn't come out yet, it would be extremely awkward to pull that in hindsight. Sorry for the confusion, everyone. Feel like I wasted a bunch of time.

Edited by AlmightyKingPrawn on Mar 28th 2024 at 2:14:35 PM

Generally it's probably a good idea to wait until an episode is officially viewable in some regard before asking for consensus, since most of us won't have context and we try not to discuss leaks publicly.

Again, I seriously apologize. I started regretting even bringing it up but it was too late and I thought I had to keep giving updates.

A from Xenoblade Chronicles 3 appears to be described as androgynous nonbinary and is addressed by "A" exclusively both in-story and in marketing. Toffolus has changed all references to female, citing the source code and Official Artworks Aionios Moments, which to me feels like an insufficient reason. I don't know the work. Relevant ATT.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 3rd 2024 at 12:42:00 PM

I was directed here from Ask The Tropers. Thread here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=133124&type=att

The short version is that a user decided that A is female and unilaterally changed A's pronouns based on an art book that contains some inaccuracies and concepts that didn’t make it to the game. They also did a bit of mini modding in the edit reasons.

The game goes out of their way to not use any pronouns for A, and has another character walk up to the screen and say A is between male and female. I think that trumps an art book, which admittedly refers to A as a woman.

What do you guys think?

Edit: Ninja'd

Edited by PresidentBrit on Apr 3rd 2024 at 10:42:19 AM

I'm inclined to go with the game here. A being nonbinary is an actual plot point: they're meant to serve as an "inbetween" for the male Logos and female Pneuma, and thus not fully either gender. Rex outright says as much and A does not disagree with this statement. I could believe them being feminine-leaning from their appearance (and to contrast their counterpart, the masculine Alpha), but they explicitly aren't female and the game very deliberately avoids using pronouns when referring to them.

(I am admittedly a little biased, as you might tell from A being my avatar, but still.)

Edited by TheGrayFox on Apr 3rd 2024 at 4:02:45 AM

Agreed, it doesn't make sense. The game deliberately avoided using gendered pronouns for A, so sticking to they/them for A.

Does the game use "they/them" or always "A"?

They use A or write in a specific way to avoid pronouns. There is one NPC that refers to A as "it", but that is one piece of dialogue in the whole game.

Does "A from Xenoblade Chronicles 3: Intentionally not addressed by pronouns, use the name A." sound fine? If the game avoids using "they", I feel we should as well, and the wiki page used to follow so.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 4th 2024 at 9:27:58 PM

Has the book been fully translated regarded A? I feel like that would be important, to see if they address this. And to be clear, Rex's explanation was in answer to Shulk asking A "why do you look like that?" given they look so different from Alvis. Rex proceeds to explain how Ontos was designed to be somewhere in between the male Logos and female Pneuma. The discussion seemed to focus on what A physically looked like, rather than specifically about how A identified or what sex they were. I also find it odd that if A was intended to be nonbinary that they would not be such in the game's code, when the game outright has a code for nonbinary characters. That's my take on it, I'm not invested either way but I do think this book should be regarded as a canon source given a major part of it is the developers answering fan questions regarding unclear things from the game.

Edited by Perentie on Apr 3rd 2024 at 7:12:31 AM

i seriously doubt that the art book is even gendering A in the first place. Japanese as a language doesn't gender people very often unless the character themselves uses an explicitly male/female pronoun. and even then it's context dependent and someone using a feminine pronouns doesn't necessarily identify as female.

the art book has been out for maybe two days and i highly doubt it's been anything more than machine translated- which is notorious for not translating things completely properly and cannot understand context. i also don't think it's getting an english translation, which also makes it not reliable as a source to suddenly change all of A's pronouns.

and at that matter, a quick google search turns up nothing in terms of A being nonbinary suddenly being non-canon, and as someone who follows a LOT of xenoblade artists and community members i think i would have encountered this on my own from any sort of reliable source.

A is never referred to with pronouns in game. Rex literally turns to the screen and says that A is non-binary.

edit: after some further research it does appear that twitter user @Xeno_Mira states that "A is referred to as a woman in the character introduction section for Future Redeemed.". That is the only seemingly reliable source i can find on the matter. i still believe that the game takes precedence, and the source material translation being a higher priority than untranslated side material has been well established on this thread.

the.. eagerness of which Toffolus changed all of A's pronouns does make me worry that the user is editing with a transphobic agenda.

Edited by EpicBleye on Apr 3rd 2024 at 10:47:55 AM

The art book also says Nikol and Glimmer are 9th Term (18 years old) when they're clearly 10th Term (19 years old) in the game ^note They have marks on their arm to show how old they are . Glimmer makes a bigger deal about her age than A does about gender identity.

Guess what was left unchanged?

I am once again asking how to handle Ayunosuke, a character whose true gender is a last-episode spoiler. Use they/them? Spoiler tags on pronouns?

When in doubt,just use their name,or they/them

we have precedent for using they/them even if the work itself avoids using pronouns altogether — for example, our page on The Order of the Stick refers to V as "they/them". Its just a lot easier to avoid pronouns in some formats, like comics, than on a wiki character page

Edited by Tremmor19 on Apr 3rd 2024 at 2:13:44 PM

The work calls her he/him until the reveal, after which it's she/her. I guess they/them works, but it would tip someone off to there being some kind of reveal of her gender.

oh, sorry, i missed the last post and was still taking about A

if it's a spoiler, use the non-spoiler version as the main pronoun. In some cases we've put Spoiler Alert on the character folder, and then use the correct pronoun in inside the character folder