During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
Not really into fanfics. Anyone who wants to can check it out.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Making a new EP. Thinking on this guy for a while.
Setting?
Inazuma Eleven is a Level-5 franchise following the Raimon team for two different eras in their games of football, which use superpowers for them and tons of Narm Charm for how ridiculous the story manages to be.
Like, the Starter Villain appears in a landship that occupies the entire doors of what's meant to be prestigious school. For a friendly soccer match. Matches where children use superpowers to play soccer. Its a franchise based on Narm Charm.
The candidate here is The Big Bad of the second game of its second trilogy. Go 2: Chrono Stones.
Who is Simeon Ayp/ SARU?
"Leader of Nu-Gen, He wants to control the world."—his In-Game despiction.
In the distant future, the Power Escalation of soccer players across the ages created mutations on their descendants, who developed surprising abilities such as heightened athletism or higher power, being able to use their auras as weapon fuel even outside soccer, however, this power had a cost, those mutants—now called Second-Stage Children—would have a short lifespam, dying at their 20s.
This lead to discrimination against them, with them being under the watch of the world goverment's. This eventually lead to a group named Feida/ Nu-Gen, which challenged the goverments and lead to the creation of El Dorado, a Time Police that would try to erradicate soccer to prevent the existance of the Second Stage Children.
However, Simeon had a plan for this. He erased the memories of his kind-hearted companion Fei Rune and replaced them with a false narrative to send him to ask help to Dr. Crossword Arno, the best time travel academic—and work with him to time travel back and stop El Dorado under the belief they were just protecting time from alterations. Fei befriends the Raimon team and they together defeat El Dorado and their many teams, preserving the timeline until El Dorado realizes that the Raimon are their best chance to actually defeat Nu-Gen. Once El Dorado brings the Raimon to their era, Simeon orders a attack to their base to present himself to them and announce his plan to start the Ragnarok Tournament, a soccer tournament where Nu Gen's teams would play against El Dorado and the Raimon to decide the fate of the world.
The Nu-Gen already has won the war, but the Ragnarok would serve as the ultimate proof of the superiority of the Second Stage Children in the eyes of Simeon, who plans for the creation of a world where only them exist.
The first match ends in a loss of El Dorado, but the second ends in a win from them. During the Tournament, Simeon simply return Fei's true memories to him and tests his loyalty by making Fei score a goal against his own team.
Fei returns, but eventually, Fei decides to return back to the Raimon due to valuing their friendship. Simeon accepts Fei leaving despite the criticism of his liutenants because he already has a way to win even against the Chrone Stones—the so-called "Ultimate Team".
In the final match of the game, Simeon is the captain of The Lagoon/ El Ragna and uses all his powers, including capsules of his own aura to devastate the Ultimate Team. However, the Ultimate Team manages to unlock all their potential and eventually turn the game, especially as Simeon's power-ups start to wane.
Once the Ultimate Team actually starts to win, Simeon has a mild Villainous Breakdown where he is unable to accept his own weakness...before being picked up for his Co-Dragons, who cheer him up and tell them that they work together, Nu-Gen aren't just Simeon's followers, they're his friends.
Simeon decides to be Defiant to the End, trying to win until the end. When he losses, Simeon accepts his conditions and surrenders to El Dorado, giving up his Super Supremacist views and accepting the Power Nulifier medicine that would turn him into a normal human but also restore his life-expectative.
Smart?
Simeon used everyone to his advantage. He completely used the protagonists for his own plans during most of the story, taking advantage of their kind hearted nature by using a person with incomplete information.
While his mysterious benefactor does betray him, Simeon very clearly keeps the upper hand until the very end. He might have got some help, but its clear that he is bosss here. The game retty much starts with Simeon already having won, with El Dorado resorting to time travel in a attempt to retcon him from existance and then kickstarting the real game.
Charisma?
Simeon is the Evil Counterpart and implied descendant of Arion Sherwind/ Tenma Mizukage, The Hero himself, and share the same Determinator traits. Simeon is a carefree and friendly person, except to El Dorado, which is justified as they're trying to erase him from existance after discriminating against him for all his short life.
With his team mates, Simeon actually proves to be a clear Benevolent Boss, enjoying the friendly atmosphere. His harsh life made him unable to fully grasp the concept of "friendships" until he really was faced with possible defeat, but its clear that he really values Nu-Gen as his friends even before using the word, its a very clear case of Villainous Friendship.
His Villainous Breakdown at his possible defeat is not played as pathetic, but tragic and he actually recovers instantly. Sure, its because his friends cheered him up, but the whole point of the scene is that Simeon's Nu-Gen have the same feeling of companionship that the heroes. After that scene, Simeon remains Defiant to the End, even receiving a injury in the Animated Adaptation and he ends as a clear Graceful Loser in the end.
Bastard?
Simeon already has no issues firing weapons at humans during his rebellion and breaks his own truce to give a message to El Dorado. Most importantly, he is a Super Supremacist that sees himself as a superior species.
But all of those feelings are a reaction to a life of mistreatment and he's never showing actually hurting innocents. This is a child's game by Level-5 after all.
Simeon has plans to Kill All Humans, but the situation is too cartoony/ fantastical to have any real-life implications of eugenics. And even with those, he ends up renouncing those views at the end thanks to Character Development
Verdict
You decide.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 28th 2021 at 10:46:49 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Sounds like a keeper Kaz.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to Simeon.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Also @ Polar, with Eva everything is divisive... looking over the Base-Breaking Character and Broken Base entries for Rebuild you'll notice anything that changed—literally, anything—has a note saying some fans prefer it and that others like it less. Also the character was completely altered from her previous appearance but Mari was in the manga as well, this isn't her first outing.
Caesar
Simeon sounds like a keep!
And now...funny we mention OG!Moriarty: the only man to put Sherlock Holmes on the run.
Who is Professor James Moriarty? What makes him a candidate?
The Napoleon of crime himself, the man who supposedly killed off Sherlock Holmes for years in-universe and out, the world's greatest criminal mind, James Moriarty was created to function as Holmes' Arch-Enemy, introduced in the classic story "The Final Problem" for the express purpose to be Holmes' intellectual equal and the man to kill him off.
Later stories and prequels delved a bit deeper into Moriarty's organization and its workings, altogether working to showcase him as the most devious villain Holmes faced. Moriarty ran a global crime network, one untouchable by law enforcement, Moriarty never, ever dirtying his own hands and instead using countless agents of his to pull off crimes. If any men were caught by police, they were immediately orchestrated to be freed from custody with money, and, failing at this, were silenced lethally. Moriarty's Villain with Good Publicity status is also gone over, having published a book so famous and ingenious that "no man in the scientific press was able to criticize it" and he himself so well-liked that even when presented with evidence, the likes of police inspectors are hesitant to believe Moriarty could be so evil.
In Valley of Fear, a bevy of Moriarty's agents go up against Holmes, having seemingly murdered a man with information named John Douglas (no not Mindhunter John Douglas!)...and though Douglas successfully faked his death for some time, and Holmes seemingly secured the man's safety, Moriarty nonetheless found Douglas and murdered him in an "accident", Holmes swearing at this point forward to focus on Moriarty's organization.
Holmes would spend months trying to trap and outwit Moriarty...to no avail. As Holmes himself says, "Never have I risen to such a height, and never have I been so hard pressed by an opponent. He cut deep, and yet I just undercut". Moriarty was always a step ahead, having set up plenty of contingencies and security protocols that he can never be tied to his vast network of crime.
When Holmes' investigations continued to plague Moriarty, the professor personally and effortlessly entered Holmes' apartment and surprised the detective, having an amicable chat in which Moriarty snarks about Holmes carrying a loaded firearm in his pocket, they both remark that they know what the other will say and skip an entire chunk of a potential conversation, and Moriarty reveals he's seen through various attempts by Holmes to spy on him. Moriarty offers Holmes a chance to stand down and end their conflict, remarking that "(This) is not danger. It is inevitable destruction."
As Holmes stands firm, Moriarty masterminds a variety of attempts on Holmes' life, all staged to look like accidents so Holmes is kept constantly run ragged. Eventually, Holmes does manage to mastermind a plot that takes out a chunk of Moriarty's network of crime...but shockingly, Moriarty himself escapes capture through guile.
Later, at the Reichenbach Falls, Moriarty has tracked down Holmes and Watson. Using an agent of his to lure Watson away from Holmes, Moriarty confronts Holmes and offers a final duel betweenst them to the death. Nonetheless remaining a gentleman and allowing Holmes to write a farewell letter to Watson, Moriarty then walks with Holmes to the edge of the Reichenbach Falls, and the two begin a violent scuffle...one that, ultimately, ends with Moriarty being thrown to his death off the side of the Falls.
And though Moriarty himself is gone, his remaining organization plagues Holmes for years to come, Moriarty's personal right-hand Sebastian Moran, vastly loyal to his boss for pulling him out of a rough life, hounding Holmes for long periods and using a lethal technological marvel of an air gun designed by Moriarty for skilled assassinations.
Is Moriarty magnificent?
Aaaabsolutely, he was designed to be the man who killed Sherlock Holmes for crying out loud, and he came damn close to it plenty a time. Moriarty isn't personally seen all that much, but Holmes paints such detailed descriptions of him, his organization, his intellect and machinations that the presence is more than enough there, and when we do get firsthand dialogue from Moriarty? He's portrayed as a calm, smooth-talking Affably Evil type, one who has a perfectly respectable conversation with Holmes about ending their fight, both of them trading cool jabs.
Moriarty constantly evades Holmes attempts to expose or take him down, and when his organization is finally crippled, Moriarty escapes justice, smoothly tracks down Holmes and challenges him to a final fight, giving him the opportunity to first write a last letter to his best friend before the duel. Moriarty oozes affableness and Villain Respect in what we get of him, and unlike, say, Sherlock or Game of Shadows' portrayals, this one isn't even implied to be Faux at all, but a genuinely well-spoken and polite genius. The only time he is said to lose his composure is when he's thrown from the Reichenbach Falls, in which he is noted to let out a scream, but uh... I'm pretty good to let that slip for the poor bastard falling to his death lol.
Is Moriarty a bastard?
Most def, though he has no personal murders on his hands he masterminds a vast criminal organization that deals in all manner of crookedness and will dispense death to those who cross him. He targets Holmes for assassination, and later tries to kill him with his bare hands once he "knew his own game was up, and was anxious to revenge himself on (Holmes)".
Even still, few of his crimes are delved into, with the brilliance of him and his organization focused on far more, and he explicitly takes Watson out of the equation rather than targeting him as well, luring the man away from his friend so Moriarty can duel Holmes.
Final Verdict?
I'd give the man, the myth, the legendary original incarnation of Professor Moriarty a fine 'Yes'.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 28th 2021 at 1:10:32 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
As we discussed I'm a solid and happy yes. I know he's been brought up a few times before and dismissed on the basis of lacking the presence even if we got accounts of the grand nature of his crimes but reading the EP there's more than enough on-page of the classic of all classic Diabolical Masterminds.
Aye to OG Moriarty.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Moriarty.
The Breakout Villain of maybe fiction as a whole.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Also as I'm watching it, I'd like to suggest a bit of a tweak in Hideko & Sook-hee's entry. Just to clarify things a bit and get their full names.
From:
- Lady Hideko and Sook-hee are young women who are initially brought into Fujiwara's conspiracy against one another, both deceiving all around them to send the other to an asylum while the other escapes. Upon falling in love, the two realize Fujiwara and Hideko's lecherous, monstrous uncle Kouzuki are their true enemies, and hatch a plan to play them against one another. The two organize a breakout Sook-hee from the asylum, steal all of Hideko's money, manage to see Kouzuki and Fujiwara dead and escape Korea for Shanghai, a free and happy couple together.
To:
- Lady Izumi Hideko and Nam Sook-hee are a pair of young women who are initially brought into Count Fujiwara's conspiracy against one another, both deceiving all around them to send the other to an asylum while the other escapes. Upon falling in love, the two realize Fujiwara and Hideko's monstrous uncle Kouzuki are their true enemies, and hatch a plan to play them against one another. The two organize a breakout to get Sook-hee out from the asylum, escaping with all of Hideko's money, manage to see Kouzuki and Fujiwara dead and flee Korea for Shanghai, a free and happy couple together.
If folks are cool with it I'll throw it in the drafts... which'll also give our pal Star a chance to pretty it up with potholes!
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Moriarty (I was under the impression that he he didn't have any dialogue)
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Based on the EP, Moriarty sounds an easy .
I'm gonna see if someone potentially wants to collab on the Guy Richie Holmes. I really feel we're dismissing him far too quickly. Additional points I made that might've been overlooked can be found here.
Until I or someone else does an EP, I won't press it any further. I'd rather not cause dissension.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 28th 2021 at 12:05:51 PM
I think it's the opposite... having thought on that one I think we're embellishing way too much on his "crimes" future. He experiments on a dog in a Played for Laughs scene, comically bugs Watson when he's in a relationship/married and can be impressed with Moriarty's brilliance. "Bastard" is stretching it.
Going through your post on the matter:
- He's friends with Watson, he wants him happy in life. He might be a zany main character but again, a Guile Hero intends for their "pawns" to be okay. He'd never do anything to intentionally work Watson, even if his advice can be weird.
- If there's evidence he's solving unsolved crime and not reporting it I'd like specific instances and to hear how the work makes it apparent there's damage for him not doing so.
- He's trying to stop Moriarty who, again, wants to jumpstart WWI, even if that puts Adler in danger we can't give him brownie points for stopping a bloody global conflict.
- He... gets mad in a fight when someone spits on him? I fail to see how that makes him darker. He's in a fight and he just got spit on.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 28th 2021 at 3:14:21 PM
Yes to Holmes and Moriarty, superb to see the two gentlemen go up.
Caesar
Like 43 I'm agreeing that Ritchie!Holmes was thought on and talked out long and hard, we went over pretty much every possible bastard move he pulls and nearly everyone found him lacking, an effortpost would serve only to reiterate these statements. Experimenting on Gladstone is totally played for laughs, messing with Watson and Mary's relationship isn't treated as some friendship-breaking treachery, and nothing he does outright causes moral outrage from anyone around him. Even when he shoved Mary from a train and both her and Watson are pissed, they both pretty quickly realize what Holmes was doing and get over it. Watson treats Holmes' attempts to pull him away from Mary as childish tricks that he brushes off with "ugh, Holmes, quit it", not horrid manipulations to ruin his life.
@papyru: OG!Moriarty does indeed have dialogue, it's relayed to us through another party (as many interaction and characters are in the stories) but it's there and enough.
@43: Definitively approve of The Handmaiden updates, man!
And since we're on Moriarty, I wholeheartedly think the classic quote about him would be wonderful quotes page:
Thoughts on this one?
Edited by Ravok on Aug 28th 2021 at 12:17:53 PM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
to Moriarty and the quote
Simeon and big happy Moriarty.
I agree with Ravok and 43, Future. Ritchie!Holmes was discussed in depth, I don't think you're bringing up much new info.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
If OG!Holes and OG!Moriaty are approved for write ups, does that mean they both can get an entry in the Greats section?
Edited by TrueChaos on Aug 28th 2021 at 12:18:18 PM
I approve of the quote of course.
Yeah, we've all said so much already, I think it's probably talked out.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Aug 28th 2021 at 12:23:35 PM
The Moron
And a hell yeah to both OG Sherlock and OG Moriarty (and his quote) - excellent work as always, Rav!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I mean, I don’t really see why? But maybe that’s just me.
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Aug 28th 2021 at 3:21:08 PM
I like the quote and with Holmes' status as a beloved Public Domain Character now we'll probably need it for the eventual page!
I don't see why they need a section in the Greats... one's an Anti-Hero, the other a Diabolical Mastermind, haven't we already covered those?
Edited by 43110 on Aug 28th 2021 at 3:27:38 PM
The wifi here sucks
Almost forgot this but Yes to the Handmaiden rewrite, also yes to the quote and I agree that we don't need an entry for them in The Greats (The most I could justify for that would how Moriarty stands out despite the lack of screentime but I don't think that's enough)
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Goku Black
GREAT Quote.
Caesar
Yeah like, both of them are classic literature characters but it should be noted that "the Greats" isn't for any "super popular, genre-defining" character in general. It's solely for the "Greats" of MB, of which neither Holmes nor Moriarty are particularly unique in any major sense—Holmes I guess is a unique-ish "rogueish detective with his own moral code who is the creator of the Sherlock Scan and deduction", but even then probably not enough to warrant an outright entry.
And Holmes will definitely be getting a page at some point, the games have a couple keepers I believe and I'm absolutely certain another iteration or two of Holmes is out there to count. I'm more surprised it doesn't have a page yet honestly.
Edited by Ravok on Aug 28th 2021 at 12:39:18 PM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Found this on wall of text BURN THE WITCH (Miraculous Ladybug) that I don’t think was approved.