Is this an example?

I asked for a clarification on All Gays are Promiscuous over at ATT in light of the entries being removed. Kinda moved the crux of the discussion here since there weren't that much responses from other tropers and it kinda got derailed with what gay is supposed to mean in the trope's context, whether it means a homosexual man or same-sex attracted individuals in general.

Edited by Elfkaiser on Dec 2nd 2019 at 3:17:35 AM

So I swapped in the sandbox for TheReasonYouSuckSpeech.Web Original, and I see that most of the bad examples were pulled from the Atop the Fourth Wall page. That said, two of the page's six examples are bad and need to go, and I don't know for sure how many examples we need to keep them on a separate page. I want to say it's seven, but I can't find any policy pages discussing it. Does anyone else know for sure?

Edited by Serac on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:02:51 AM

Removed those examples.

From Ghetto Name:

• One of the characters in NW by Zadie Smith is a black lawyer called Natalie. Her parents named her Keisha, but she didn't think that it sounded very professional.

Seems like it fits. "Keisha" is one of those names with an African-American association, I think.

Edited by Twiddler on Dec 2nd 2019 at 4:20:15 AM

I'd like to remove this example from YMMV.Pokemon Sword And Shield:

• And You Thought It Would Fail: Between the many controversies surrounding Sword and Shield before its release ^note the decision to exclude the National Dex, reusing character models and animations from previous games, changing or removing game features, and Game Freak's inconsistency on whether or not these issues were going to be fixed, a lot of people were sure the games would suffer a hit in sales compared to previous titles. The games defied expectations, selling six million copies in just one week, becoming the fastest-selling games on the Switch to that point, and received generally positive reviews from critics. Fan reception was also more positive than what was expected, though the games still remain highly contentious.

From a quick look over the period of drama, it seems that even the most infuriated of the detractors begrudgingly accepted that a financial hit or severe fanbase exodus was very unlikely, and thus this Contested Sequel controversy does not qualify for And You Thought It Would Fail.

Edited by Albert3105 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 9:00:14 AM

I also wonder if And You Thought It Would Fail is one of those tropes that, like Overshadowed by Controversy, has a minimum time limit to qualify.

Edit: Doesn't seem to currently have have a minimum time requirement, just that the game be actively derided before release, which it was due to things like Dexit.

However, I think it fails as an example because of part of the definition:

Given that Pokémon is an established goldmine of a franchise two decades old, I'd say it's well past the point of And You Thought It Would Fail

Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 8:06:45 AM

True.

I went ahead and pulled it.

• Most Writers Are Male: Don't write women from ignorance, stereotypes, and/or in unsympathetic ways (either in the form of misogyny or over-sexualization).

I don’t know if this fits the Bad Writing Index, since Most Writers Are Male is more of a statement than a trope. Plus it’s redundant, since Unfortunate Implications is already listed.

Agreed. I think this example on Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg is misuse, not to mention having two YMMV potholes:

• Crapsaccharine World: Morning Land could be interpreted as this, seeing as how you can usually find some sort of terrifying Mook hiding right around the corner. And honestly, how bright and cheerful would you be if you were faced with the chance that you may never see the light of day again?

Edited by rjd1922 on Dec 2nd 2019 at 11:10:48 AM

That could probably be removed on the basis of Speculative Troping.

Alternative Character Interpretation is YMMV; an example that hinges on it shouldn't be on the main page. Edit: Oh, you already pointed out the YMMV pothole. Well, the "could be interpreted as" is some Examples Are Not Arguable failure.

this query

Edited by Twiddler on Dec 2nd 2019 at 10:37:37 AM

From the dialogue alone, looks to me like a classic example of Rhetorical Question Blunder? What's making you doubt?

It’s less “mistaking a rhetorical question for a non-rhetorical one” and more “not getting what the answer is supposed to be”.

Edited by Twiddler on Dec 3rd 2019 at 1:15:56 AM

Is the Answer to This Question "Yes"?

Oh, thanks!

From that trope page:

Is that pothole being used correctly? It’s like poking a hole in a metaphor, but not necessarily out of being Literal-Minded. So in this analogy, is the literal-mindedness the important part of the trope (i.e. not recognizing a rhetorical question for what it is), or does it extend to other reasons for the metaphor failing, like an Analogy Backfire?

...Probably making this question more complicated than it needs to be by posing it through analogy.

Ok, tl;dr: is “not recognizing a rhetorical question as rhetorical” the key part of Rhetorical Question Blunder?

Edited by Twiddler on Dec 3rd 2019 at 1:33:29 AM

Can we have a look at this example from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic S5 E16 "Rarity Investigates!":

• Unfortunate Implications: The efficiency with which Wind Rider threw together and implemented a scheme to discredit Rainbow Dash implies that she's not the first promising rookie that he's sabotaged. Also, his lack of remorse and conviction that "you have to play dirty" may say some unsavory things about the conduct of earlier generations of Wonderbolts.

I believe that a) this is not what Unfortunate Implications covers as a trope, and b) the whole example is speculative anyway.

And it's not cited. Three strikes, it's out.

The answerer not understanding the question was rhetorical is their blunder. But I think not recognizing what the answer *should* be falls under it, too. So you have Is the Answer to This Question "Yes"? followed by Rhetorical Question Blunder.

Found this entry on Pokémon Sword and Shield and wasn't sure if it's actually a case of Harsher in Hindsight:

• Harsher in Hindsight:In the Tokimeki PokéLive! and TwinBee story "Prophecy of Failure!?", it's revealed that Climate Change wreaked havoc in Shizuku Osaka's World (Earth) in the future, making most of the planet uninhabitable and with many species going extinct. In this game, it's revealed in Galarian Corsola's Pokedex entry that it was eradicated by Climate Change in the past.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 3rd 2019 at 4:46:01 AM

It's already on the fanfic YMMV page.

Yeah, cut it. Sword/Shield is completely unaffected by something that happened in fanfiction.

Edited by Tabs on Dec 3rd 2019 at 5:00:59 AM

I suppose Harsher in Hindsight might be appropriate on the fanfic page, but I'm not sure it belongs on Pokémon Sword and Shield.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Dec 3rd 2019 at 4:53:58 AM

If the opportunity arose, I'd suggest having either a notability requirement, a within-the-franchise scope requirement, or a "ridiculously specific" requirement for the three hindsight tropes. That'll have to wait until TRS clears its backlog, but I think it'd make the items much more meaningful.

As an example, one game I follow has a Hilarious in Hindsight that basically says "Ms. Fanservice got a Hot Witch costume for the game's halloween event. A fan artist once drew her in a Hot Witch costume." That's not worth caring about. On the other hand, someone predicting the names of the Switch Pokémon games as Sword and Shield very shortly before the official announcement is at least a little amusing, especially given that it was presented as a hoax.

Heya. Someone wrote this in Harsher in Hindsight in Metal Gear Solid.

• Liquid desired to murder Big Boss in revenge for either allegedly being knowingly given the inferior genes by Big Boss or being told by Big Boss repeatedly that he was inferior, and hated Snake partially for stealing that chance. Liquid's voice actor, Cam Clarke, would later voice a character who attempts to avenge his father after discovering that he was murdered by his uncle in Kingdom Hearts II.

Thing is, this is not related to Metal Gear Solid at all, which is why I cut it (admitedly with a very bad reason from my part, "how is that tragic?"). It feels like random trivia about voice acting since it has nothing to do with the future of Metal Gear Solid or a Kojima work. User PF put it back on without an edit reason.

I felt I should ask here first.