Is this an example?

I don't think that distinction is all that clear, nor is there enough context to say the trope is actually used.

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I'm thinking about a possible Harsher in Hindsight moment for Berserk:

• The King of Midland's death is already sad to begin with, but it becomes much more sadder when you realize that his actor for the 1997 anime, Tamio Ohki, died in December 2017.

Thoughts?

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.

No. That's always an invalid use of HIH. Actors die; it doesn't make the deaths of all the characters they've ever portrayed retroactively sad. It could only apply if the manner of their RL death were ironically similar to the manner of the character's death. It would have to be unusual as well.

For example, if someone portrays a character who dies from being struck by lightning, and then dies from being struck by lightning, that could be an example.

A Chronically Killed Actor is exempt from this. For example, Sean Bean has died in so many ways on screen that he'd have a hard time not qualifying when he passes on, which in turn invalidates any of them as an example.

For Harsher in Hindsight to apply, there must be a direct relationship between the events in question.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:04:07 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Got it, thanks.

Does HIH also apply to in-story examples as well? For example, in High School DXD, Akeno Himejima gets frustrated whenever her relationship with her father Baraqiel is mentioned. But by Volume 7, we learn that Akeno was upset with Baraqiel because he failed to save her mother, Shuri Himejima, from being murdered by her own relatives.

Edited by gjjones on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:35:35 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.

No, that's an in-story character reveal. It's objectively present. Harsher in Hindsight is an audience reaction.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:29:53 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Understood, I just wanted to be sure.

Edited by gjjones on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:33:20 AM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.

Does No Name Given apply if a character is unnamed for a significant amount of time before their name is revealed? For example, one or more seasons?

Is this Leaning on the Fourth Wall, or just saying it like it is? Or both?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576

When Akeno talks to Issei in Volume 7 of High School DXD, she mourns to him that she was left to fend for herself when Baraqiel was unable to save Shuri, and now Akeno can't ever call Baraqiel her father.

Is this a true example of the Despair Speech trope or would a different trope apply here?

Also, given the show is supposed to be family-unfriendly in general, would Family-Unfriendly Death apply to Issei's death at the beginning of the series?

Edited by gjjones on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:47:01 PM

He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.

I would qualify the example to say that it only applies in the first season(s), although context matters. Is it clear that this character always had a name, but the work didn't choose to reveal it until later? If so, it's not an example no matter how long it took.

I don't really sense any fourth wall issues with that, so not an example.

Not being even slightly familiar with the work, I'd need more detail to answer.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

On Appeal to Worse Problems it's listed as trying to say something is worse than the issue someone is upset about, right?

Well what say the issue of awkward times games tried to be mature, just to use an example at random. Suppose an example of something like microtransactions or loot boxes or references to sexual violence being used, and they brush it off, but go over the top over something so minor anyway. Would that still count?

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

Let's say you're expressing upset about loot crates in video games. I say to you, "Yeah, but there are starving kids in Africa." I am implying that your concern is unimportant because more important issues exist. That is Appeal to Worse Problems.

I'm not sure how what you said is an example.

Edited by Fighteer on Dec 21st 2018 at 10:52:54 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Kinda get what I am getting at except:

• Bob is really upset. He is triggered. Because a game happens to...lets say promote the killing of giant bugs, using an example at random. He's quite over the top about it.
• Alice discusses it and says how the developers and writers expressed how they see the bugs as people. They think the world is overcrowded and a thinning of the herd is needed, some culling, a few mass shootings where the number killed is in the hundreds of thousands, something truly legendary and awe inspiring, a war or two.
• Bob may hear what is said about the writers but he doesn't listen. He doesn't care that they see the bugs as humans or think halving the world's population is a excellent idea is anything wrong, but he's still very much threatened by their game having you kill bugs.

Thoughts? Alice is appealing to worse problems than Bob's but they directly correlate to his issues and Bob shows that he very much has Skewed Priorities: developers of bug killing games leaning towards a little genocide is not an issue for him but killing bugs in a game very much is. Still count it?

Edited by tsstevens on Dec 22nd 2018 at 7:35:03 AM

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

I don't see how Alice is trying to say he shouldn't care about the bugs, or that his opinion is wrong. At most she says it's actually even worse than what he thinks it is. It's also a bit too theoretical for Skewed Priorities in my opinion.

I don't think Family-Unfriendly Death applies to HSDXD. It's as mentioned fairly on par for the rest of the series.

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Interesting, very interesting. So Alice would be valid in saying this?

Currently reading up My Rule Fu Is Stronger than Yours

I feel like Murder Simulators is the trope in question. The idea that killing these giant bugs is somehow equated to the cause/existence of real world issues.

Health sure is versatile. It's possible to be both light-headed and dim-witted. At the same time, no less.

I have no idea what it is you're asking.

From YMMV.SSSS Gridman.

Misaimed Fandom: The anime is clearly aimed at those who watched the source material and its American adaptation as kids, as well as Kaiju fans and Tokusatsu fans. Then there are those who watch the show for the "waifus" Rikka and Akane, some of them even hoping the two will become a lesbian pairing... despite the fact that Rikka's friendship with Akane is Played for Drama and Akane is the Big Bad turned Tragic Villain due to the manipulations of the Greater-Scope Villain.

The way its written seems more like Just Here for Godzilla.

Reposting from the previous two pages:

Do the following examples from Robin Hood (2018) have enough context?:

• So Bad, It's Good: The movie either just straight up sucks, or it's wonderfully enjoyable with how much it sucks. It's really up for you to decide.
• What Do You Mean, It's Not Political?: By the end, the final battle between the Merry Men and the Sheriff's forces might as well be a G8 meeting with crossbows.

Also whilst I've removed the "Wielded by several characters,", because it's Word Cruft, I'm still not sure this example from Mortal Engines has enough context:

• Hand Cannon: Thaddeus's in particular operates as a hand-sized minigun.

What about for the trope Unnamed Parent? The parents are referred to as ___'s Mom/Dad for a couple seasons before their names are revealed and henceforth they are referred to by their names. Not an example, then?

According to Forenperser, Aquaman from the movie of the same name is a Designated Hero because because he leaves Black Manta's father to drown in front of his son even though he could have easily saved him and just have him imprisoned was definitely an un-heroic thing to do. He states that the standard procedure for criminals is not being left to drown, but to be taken into custody in our justice system. A Designated Hero is a character in a story who, despite being presented as heroic, is actually a Jerkass at best and an arguable villain at worst. This is not the same as the deliberately morally ambiguous Anti-Hero. From the praise they receive from other characters, the narrative, and perhaps Word of God, it is plain that the audience is expected to like and root for the Designated Hero; instead, they have problems that can even inspire pity or, on rare occasions, disgust. They are often mean people with no redeeming qualities aside from some superficial virtues. They do not undergo appreciable character development and they're generally given a pass by the writers, freeing them from the consequences of their actions.

---

The movie picks up after Justice League (2017) and Aquaman has been depicted in a pretty heroic light.

Edited by MasterHero on Dec 22nd 2018 at 5:48:43 AM

The specific entry in question from YMMV.Aquaman 2018

• Designated Hero: Arthur, not throughout the entire movie, but during the beginning. Villain or not, leaving Black Manta's father to drown in front of his son even though he could have easily saved him and just have him imprisoned was definitely an un-heroic thing to do.

I would think that the qualifier of "not throughout the entire movie" disqualifies it as an example before anything else does, unless growing out of being a Deisgnated Hero is part of the plot.

Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 22nd 2018 at 6:40:11 AM

For a couple of seasons, they're examples of No Name Given (specifically the subtrope Unnamed Parent), and then they aren't.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Reposting this from a few weeks ago because I didn't get any feedback on it. I'm probably going to delete the Padparadscha example because from what I've seen, no one really got tired of her Delayed Reactions.

From YMMV.Steven Universe:

• Author's Saving Throw:
  • For fans not fond of the Uncle Grandpa crossover, the fact that it went out of its way to state within the first two minutes that it's not to be considered canon, and that it was more of an excuse to cut loose for the sake of one-off humor greatly helped its reception in the fandom.
  • To some fans, the moral of "Love Letters" that there's no such thing as real Love at First Sight conflicted with how Greg and Rose's relationship had been portrayed. "We Need to Talk" shows that after the initial infatuation wore off, they needed to have a serious discussion about how they could realistically work as a relationship.
  • A lot of fans were getting weary of Steven simply talking many of his foes out of hostilities during season 2 and feared that Steven's All-Loving Hero status was being taken to unrealistic levels, especially after he dealt with the Cluster by simply talking it down. As a result, many viewed Steven being forced to learn during his encounters with Bismuth, Jasper, and Eyeball that Talking the Monster to Death doesn't work with every foe he faces and that there is going to be times that he'll be forced to resort to violence in order to survive dangerous encounters as a breath of fresh air.
  • Many criticisms of the show talk about how Steven usually manages to make friends or get on passable terms with the Gems he encounters, especially after defeating them. "Room for Ruby" has Navy take complete advantage of that mindset and stab Steven in the back.
    • 'Room for Ruby' also addresses another criticism. The Rubies suffering A Fate Worse Than Death being left to drift in the cold void of space was seen as needlessly cruel by some. Steven promising to rescue them at the start of the Zoo arc, only to not do that, just added onto it. This episode not only implies that they will all be rescued by Navy, something confirmed come Wanted, but the way Navy goes about acquiring the means to do that involves playing Steven like a fiddle as a revenge scheme.
  • Blue Diamond's Badass Decay in the Zoo arc by being portrayed as The Eeyore compared to her ruthlessness in "The Answer" was an issue with people hoping for her to be as dangerous and threatening as Yellow Diamond. This is remedied when she is portrayed as a menacing authority in the Wanted arc and "Reunited" while downplaying, but not erasing, her sorrowful traits.
  • After increasing complaints that Padparadscha's "can only predict the past" shtick was wearing a little thin, "Your Mother and Mine" shows that her powers do indeed come in handy at times.
  • Most of the episodes that made up the "Heart of the Crystal Gems" Stevenbomb addressed a lot of concerns that fans had been having about the show for quite some time:
    • A common criticism of the Crystal Gems is their tendency to let their own issues fall on Steven's shoulders, with varying degrees of intent. In "What's Your Problem?", Amethyst refuses to do, and Steven calls her the most mature Crystal Gem for it. Additionally, she tells him that he doesn't need to deal with other people's problems, something that many fans had been wanting to tell him for years.
    • "The Question" was one for Garnet even though she didn't even appear. Ever since "Hit the Diamond", many fans noted how unhealthy it was that Ruby and Sapphire couldn't spend a minute apart without each other. Ruby notes how in her whole existence she's never really had any time by herself; she thoroughly enjoys it, and Steven helps her realize that her desire for independence and her wanting to be with Sapphire aren't mutually exclusive. By the episode's end it's implied that from now on she'll want to spend more time by herself, and she excitedly tells Sapphire that being married will mean they're always together — even when they physically aren't.
    • Multiple fans worried that the issue with the Breaking Point or her trying to kill Steven would be swept under the rug upon Bismuth's return, or would be handled in a way that made her look like a villain. Both are handled with care in "Made of Honor"; Bismuth realizes shattering the Diamonds would've done more harm than good, and is very regretful of what she did to Steven, even exiling herself because she believed the other Crystal Gems wouldn't take her back because of it.

Considering Animation Lead Time and the like, I'm not sure how many of these are actual examples.

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From Anime.Bang Dream:

• Chromosome Casting: Like the other Idol franchise, the series lacked the male characters, whether they're main, supporting or minor. Justified as Takaaki Kidani reveals that he refused to allow any of the girls to interact with men other than their fathers.

Is "justified" being used correctly here? From what I can see, it doesn't provide any kind of reasoning other than "the creator said he didn't want it".