Is this an example?

What about the other examples?

The Social Expert doesn't mean the character is necessarily manipulative, so calling it a subversion is wrong. A subversion of that trope would be someone who's one way or another implied to be able to figure out the social workings of people, but turns out to be crap at it. This a dead straight example (assuming it's accurate to the character).

"Subverted" is one of the most misused words on the wiki. I admit that I used to have trouble with it myself, until I got into the habit of challenging myself every time I was tempted to use it.

A huge number of examples which claim to be "subverted" should really be edited to say "played with". (A few too many of the remainder simply aren't examples of the tropes they claim at all.)

As for the Cunning Linguist example, that sounds right to me. The only other possibility I see is Omniglot, and your description sounds more like the former.

Aside: while your use of the word "epithet" is technically correct, the word has acquired some generally negative connotations. People "hurl epithets" at people they don't like. It might be better/clearer to use another word, like "sobriquet" or "moniker". But that's totally up to you.

In Lilo & Stitch: The Series, Lilo and co. travel around Hawaii to catch Jumba's experiments on the loose. These aliens come in tiny balls, are assigned a number, and are eventually nicknamed and trained to be good. While this makes a passing resemblance to the Pokémon series, it wasn't until 13 years later that players can travel around a Hawaii-based region to catch Pokemon.

Is this Hilarious in Hindsight?

Reposting so it doesn't get lost.

Do video games provide Knife and Sword Fight examples if there's no theatrical Flynning or other dramatics, just that two opposite sides/combatants are wielding knives/swords?

Mainly for 2D RPGs like of RPG Maker, or Final Fantasy.

I feel like the simple availability of swords or knives as weapon choices in a video game is not interesting enough to function as a trope. What would you put as example context? "Knife Fight: You can equip knives and fight with them." Boooooooooring. The tropes seem intended to represent when some narrative significance is made of a particular fight with knives or swords — and in particular, when both (or all) combatants are using the same weapons. Example: Tommy Lee Jones and Steven Seagal in the climactic battle of Under Siege.

While it might count as a Shout-Out or something if done intentionally, there is nothing about that example that strikes me as particularly funny. Anyway, the description specifically states, "This is not merely when something predicts something else."

edited 8th Oct '16 5:55:08 AM by Fighteer

& : My impression from reading the lead of The Social Expert is that it must necessarily overlap with being manipulative.

Those tropes would probably have been named Sword Duel and Knife Duel if the pages were made today (even if they also include melees), but the names they have are what Hollywood generally uses, I believe. In live action, they have to be specifically choreographed, rather than "this could happen", which is more how it is in games with general weapon choices. The way I see it, any "this could happen" example is a generic "example", which means it should be deleted.

I'd draw the limit where it's specifically coded one way or another. Let's say it's the final boss fight, and that boss uses a sword. You can use any weapon you want to. If that's all there is to it, I wouldn't count it. However, if there's an achievement for only using a sword in that fight, or if there's a unique response from the boss if you do, or if it's considered the canon way it happened, or something like that, then I would count it.

Tropes could probably use some cleanup.

The trope says it's a prerequisite for several manipulative tropes, but it only describes itself as the ability to detect the social workings of people, not to act on them. Some of the specific tropes you mentioned are even mentioned on that trope as being what it's about.

edited 8th Oct '16 8:28:52 AM by AnotherDuck

Reposting these from the previous page so they don't get lost:

YMMV.Ex Machina:

• "Funny Aneurysm" Moment: One of the lyrics of the song that plays in the dance scene is "work your fingers to the bone". Later when Caleb watches the video Jade banging her arms on the door, her fingers are the first to disintegrate. Additionally, her arms worked to the bone.

YMMV.The Fault In Our Stars:

• Narm: Hazel's infinity quote^note There are infinite numbers between 0 and 1. There's .1 and .12 and .112 and an infinite collection of others. Of course, there is a bigger infinite set of numbers between 0 and 2, or between 0 and a million. Some infinities are bigger than other infinities. A writer we used to like taught us that. There are days, many of them, when I resent the size of my unbounded set. I want more numbers than I'm likely to get, and God, I want more numbers for Augustus Waters than he got. But, Gus, my love, I cannot tell you how thankful I am for our little infinity. I wouldn't trade it for the world. You gave me a forever within the numbered days, and I'm grateful. might lose its impact and become laughable when you learn that it's mathematically incorrect. While some infinities are bigger than other infinities - the set of all rational numbers is for instance smaller than the set of all real numbers - the intervals [0, 1], [0, 2] and [0, 1000000] actually contain the same amount of real numbers.

ComicBook.Future Quest:

• Revisiting the Roots: The Hanna-Barbera action hero lineup ^note discounting their 80s-90s entries, like Galtar, Dark Water, and SWAT Kats has spent many more years as parodies of themselves than they spent as actual action heroes. This comic is possibly the most notable return to the characters' original premises in over two decades.

The Revisiting the Roots example seems fine to me. Are you seeing something I'm not? It can really help to mention why you're asking. Because I honestly have no idea.

As for the other two, I consider YMMV to be the site's Wretched Hive, and avoid it as much as possible, so I'm probably not the best person to comment.

'A huge number of examples which claim to be "subverted" should really be edited to say "played with".'

I would disagree. Saying something is played with doesn't say how it's played with. If it's not played straight it is subverted, inverted, etc. If you can't say how it's played with then it should be left off the page.

Actually, that appears to be Zig-Zagging Trope.

"Played with" is a rhetorical cop-out that you use when you can't find an actual Playing with a Trope category and just want to insert some mindless Word Cruft.

Zig-Zagging Trope is when multiple forms of Playing with a Trope are used in the same example.

edited 8th Oct '16 9:51:38 PM by Fighteer

It's been 4 days, could someone take a look at the YMMV.Ex Machina and YMMV.The Fault In Our Stars examples I posted above

YMMV.The Phantom Menace has Vindicated by History listed. I think it's bullshit.

Opinions? *cough* Fighteer *cough*

edited 14th Oct '16 9:52:50 PM by Karxrida

What does that even mean in the context of the prequel trilogy? Oh, I see. I consider both examples under that entry to be bullshit, but it's obviously at least slightly a matter of opinion. Especially the idea that TFA is worse than TPM is not anything that is even remotely supported by the weight of opinion that I've seen.

edited 14th Oct '16 9:54:03 PM by Fighteer

Holy shit that was quick.

Um... I dunno? I'm just pretty sure that it's a Contested Sequel (or prequel, w/e) at best because I'm pretty sure opinions of it have gone down since its release (especially because of the Plinket review).

I have not read "the Plinket review", so I am not one to offer an opinion on its validity. Contested Sequel seems like the best option there, and that does not in any way allow for TPM to be "vindicated".

TFA's main sin is its relative lack of originality, which may or may not make it "better" than the other films depending on what you expected to get out of it in the first place. TPM's "originality" seems mainly devoted to Lucas writing fanfic about his own universe, including the risible "midichlorian" concept. The idea that there is any objective way to measure quality in this respect is baloney.

edited 14th Oct '16 9:57:51 PM by Fighteer

The Plinket review is that famous RedLetterMedia video review about TPM. If you haven't seen it (which I'd be pretty surprised about since you're a Star Wars fan), go watch it; it's very in-depth about why the movie doesn't work.

I'll nuke it, but I probably won't be able to make a good Contested Sequel write-up.

edited 14th Oct '16 10:00:53 PM by Karxrida

Is the Superpowered Evil Side of a character considered to be separate from them?

edited 15th Oct '16 9:31:42 AM by TroperNo9001

Same character, somewhat different personality. It's not the same thing as a possession, and not exactly like a split personality (though there could probably be overlap).

edited 15th Oct '16 9:42:41 AM by AnotherDuck

... A Superpowered Evil Side is by definition always a Split Personality, since it's a subtrope of Enemy Within and Superpowered Alter Ego, both of which are subtropes of Split Personality.

I find that like saying if you're drunk you've got a split personality.

Would a god of minions count as a case of Odd Job Gods?

In Spells, Swords, & Stealth the main god that the protagonists have dealings with is Grumble, god of the minions, thanks to his being the god worshiped by ex-henchman and current Paladin of Grumble, Thistle the gnome.

I would say yes.