During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
From YMMV.Yu Gi Oh The Abridged Series
- Complete Monster: Melvin. Bakura explicitly calls him "the most evil character on the show." Played for Laughs of course.
- Possibly the Satanic Teddy Bear. Being a demon though, this is to be expected.
Seriously? First off, the Teddy Bear has never done anything and is Played for Laughs.
Melvin is, admittedly, a comedic villain. Are his actions Played for Laughs? Kind of. He's taken as a very serious threat at the least. But even if he does fit the heinous standard, there is something else. He genuinely loved Mr. Tweetums and got pissed when Mai made him forget about him. He also considers the Slender Man an old friend. He also has standards, very silly standards, but standards nonetheless.
Slender Man: You should pretend to be a Jehova's Witness.'
Melvin: Come on, Slender Man! We're not that evil!
I know I seem silly taking this entry seriously, but that's just me.
Avatar by Leafsnake
I gave my opinions for Melvin and Teddy Bear here. In short: Cut.
You know what... ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
on Turpin. He may be on paper less heinous than Lovett and Todd, but Todd has an excuse and Lovett's played for comedy. Turpin is neither. He is the most heinous person in the story with no mitigating factors. Sending Johanna to the asylum when she wouldn't let him rape her clinches it for me. Lovett is IMO a 99% Monster, Played for Laughs just often enough to escape the list.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Nuke.
re: CSI and Cold Case: I'll try to post some writeups this weekend.
edited 10th Apr '13 12:15:33 PM by HamburgerTime
@11302: Agree. Cut those entries. So fast.
I think I've said this before but I agree with keeping Film!Turpin (I've heard he has more depth in the play). Framing an innocent man so he can rape his wife, ordering a little boy's execution when he admits he doesn't know/care if the boy was innocent or not, and sentencing the girl he raised as a daughter to an asylum when she wouldn't let him sleep with her. I know Todd kills more people, but in my opinion Turpin's crimes are unique enough that he reaches the heinous standard on his own merits.
edited 10th Apr '13 12:24:23 PM by OccasionalExister
Play!Turpin... yes and no. He gets a number that reveals he hates himself for being such a creepy pervert, but at the end of it he resolves to... be an even more creepy pervert.
In some productions that song is cut and is replaced with the little-boy-hanging, too.
edited 10th Apr '13 12:26:31 PM by HamburgerTime
X Filo, feel free to submit the changes for the CSI page at least
For X Files, Exister said everything I was gonna, so mark me down for what he said.
I'm with Exister on the X-Files examples. Burn those ones from Yu Gi Oh Abridged.
Anyway, looking at the Law and Order page, we've got a problem here. Unlike CSI, L&O almost never features flashbacks, or anything similar. That means almost all the examples suffer from Offscreen Villainy. Going through just the ones I'm familiar with:
Jacob Lowenstein. All offscreen. We see his wife torture their son onscreen (trying to burn his hands off), but the most Jacob does is scream at her (while she was trying to do that).
Constantin Volsky: Offscreen if memory serves.
Leon Vorgitch: This one can stay. His original crimes are offscreen, but the ones he commits in the episode are, if I remember rightly, on camera.
Rudy Amendariz and Betty Drake. All offscreen. They are horrific people, but nothing they do is shown.
I don't watch SVU, but I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are also offscreen.
edited 10th Apr '13 1:29:53 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Yeah I think Turpin could qualify. Also, somone said they thought that that movie could not have a cm because EVERYONE in it was bad. Not true, Anthony, Johanna, Lucy, and Toby are all good. It's Todd, Lovett, Turpin, Bamford, Pirili, and Fogg who are bad.
The abridged examples should be cut.
edited 10th Apr '13 1:30:44 PM by bobg
jjj
That's still a lot of bad people. In any case, I say no on Turpin. Todd's got a higher bodycount, despite having less power.
edited 10th Apr '13 1:30:45 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
I support keeping Turpin.
Yeah, not so sure about Beadle Bamford though, while he does go along with Turpin's plans, and he does show a sadistic streak (smiling while seeing Lucy getting raped and enthusiasticly attacking Johanna), he is really nothing more than Turpin's lacky. in the stage version, it's even mentoned that he has a daughter named Annie, whom he seems to care about.
Also, the yughio abridged examples have been cut.
Lastly anyone else have any opinons on dr Pschyes music example?
jjj
The Beadle is the type who never has a thought Turpin didn't have first. He's not a standout to...well...anyone.
I'm going to do one final sweep for group examples
From the Anime & Manga Section
- The Novas from Freezing are Abominations from another dimension, which started a war against humanity just for amusement. They corrupt many Pandoras, forcing them to fight their comrades and Body Horror seems to be their way of fun. It's almost like they rape the Pandoras to mind control them, too.
- Shirou Hisujikai's army of high school delinquents from Ookami-san. In Ep. 2 they kidnap Ryouko, tie her up, and proceed to kick the crap out of her. They heavily imply that they're about to rape her as well, but thankfully, Ryoshi and the Otogi Bank show up to rescue her
- For a kid-oriented show, Gao Gai Gar gives us seven of the 31 Primevals, the Arm Primeval, the Nail Primeval, the Ear Primeval, Eye Primeval, Intestine Primeval, Rib Primeval, and Liver Primeval. They brutally conquered Soldat J's world, killing all its inhabitants. To beat Kaido, the Intestine Primeval even took over his adopted mother's body so she could kill him in the worst way. Unlike the other Primevals and the Zonders, they're shown in an absolutely evil light no matter what their programming.
- And then, in FINAL, we have the 11 Soul Masters, which are a bunch of Omicidal Maniacs trying to destroy the entire universe by sucking up all the Dark Matter to revive the three worlds. The only one who seems to be...decent is Volfogg's opponent, Polturn. Palparepa, Pillnus, False Able, and False Cain are the worst of the group, psychologically torturing the Braves and GGG. False Able even turned Kaido into a living battery for Pia Decem to prevent Soldat and Renais from attacking. Pillnus psychologically tortured, physically tortured, AND is implied to have raped Action Girl Renais. And Palparepa takes special pleasure in beating Guy down every time he can and making him Brainwashed and Crazy to attack his friends!
From the Fan Works section:
- Prophecies of the Morphing Grid:
- Most of the Dominus Lords qualify, too. The twelve wealthiest people in the world, they've spent their entire lives subverting the government and business communities of Earth for the UAE so they can take it over more easily. Their ancestors have been doing this for hundreds of generations, going back 10,000 years, as it turns out, too. They're also fond of assassinations, unethical business dealings, and boundless decadence. Two rise above the rest: Gregory Roschin, the Big Bad of the group (actually described as "The Devil himself" by another character), turns out to be, among other things, the person who hired Mirloc to kill Sky's father, and Mr. Stonefeld, who, as a message to get the Rangers to back off from the UAE's business, has a hit put out on their families, and we get to watch (well, read) actual characters from the show die horribly. Also, ever wonder why Norg was the only yeti we see? Yeah, these guys are why. They're apparently based on real people, but good luck finding a list of crimes as long on even the most coldhearted Real Life Corrupt Corporate Executive.
- Finally, let's give a nod to the small army of Corrupt Corporate Executives, Sleazy Politicians, Amoral Attorneys, crime bosses, drug kingpins, and various other powerful human villains who helped along or at least looked the other way toward the UAE's attempts to conquer Earth. They're all incredibly minor characters, most of whom don't even get names, but selling out your entire planet in order to fatten your wallet is about as despicable as it gets.
From the Film section:
- Reinhard Heydrich (played by Kenneth Branagh) in Conspiracy, a film about the 1942 Wannsee Conference, in which a group of German bureaucrats and leaders worked out the major details of the Final Solution. What's interesting about Heydrich in Conspiracy was that they tried to make him handsome and mild-mannered, and only showed him in Soft Light (instead of having shadows on his face). In fact, All the Nazis in this movie are Complete Monsters; Heydrich is merely the most prominent example. This is, after all, a movie about the planning of the Holocaust. It's particularly notable in that the two characters who actually object to the "solution" put forward do not do so out of the moral grounds of exterminating a people; they'd be quite happy for the Jews to be wiped out, but their objections are based on legalistic grounds: it would just cause too much paperwork and probably become a complete bureaucratic mess. Most Nazi leaders in movies about Nazis will be portrayed as this.
- The rapist/murderers in The Last House on the Left. After escaping prison for their previous brutal crimes in the beginning of the film, they kidnap two teenage girls, subject them to humiliation beyond words, rape them, and brutally kill them. They had no remorse for this and tried to shack up with the parents of one of the victims for the night (who eventually found out). You're very happy when they die. The only sympathetic member of the group is Junior, the son of the leader of the monsters who was hooked on drugs as a kid as a way for his dad to control him, who honestly tried to reach out to one victim and who felt completely guilt-ridden and horrible after the deed was done. As said by Mari, he was really just a willow, blowing in the wind that was his father (who was more a force of evil than a human).
- Most of the kidnappers in Big Jake; they start off by murdering two children in cold blood (and half the staff of the McCandles ranch) and just go on from there. They kidnap a young boy and are clearly ready to kill him at any moment, if they think they won't get their money. Their leader is an interesting example in that he is also Affably Evil — he'd be happy to have a nice, pleasant, friendly conversation with you...just before pulling out a gun and murdering you in cold blood without so much as flinching. The worst of the bunch is the machete-wielding, overweight kidnapper. There is also among their number a man who enjoys shooting people in the back. Fortunately, the title character catches up with them in the end.
- Hobo With A Shotgun, being a tribute to 70s and 80s vigilante movies, features these a lot:
- Most of Scumtown's police force. When the Hobo goes to a station and tries to get them to put a stop to the Drake's sadistic reign, one officer tries to convince the Hobo they can't do anything. As the Hobo keeps insisting on justice and Ivan, one of the Drake's sons, enters, this same officer starts watching in disdainful satisfaction as Ivan carves the word 'scum' into Hob's chest and throws him into a back alley. It's made clear the police don't do anything, not because they couldn't, but because The Drake pays them a lot and they don't mind corruption at all. There's also one dirty cop who tries to molest Abby and uses words like curse words more than you'd think would sound realistic (apparently to make sure we realize he is an unpleasant person).
- Masked robbers, who happen to be attempting to rob a convenience store, demanding money, one of them pointing a gun at a nearby baby and giggling like he's ready to pull the trigger at any moment. Fortunately, for both the storekeeper and the baby, the Hobo happens to be there, with a fully loaded shotgun within arm's reach.
From the Live Action section:
- Jordan Chase and his fellow conspirators from season 5 of Dexter might just be the worst monsters in the whole show thus far. On Jordan's direction, the other men capture women to torture and rape for months before disposing of them in barrels. All the while, Jordan looks on, occasionally holding his watch to the women's ears and whispering, "Tick tick tick. That's the sound of your life running out." Watching the video footage they took of what they did to the women was enough to make Debra root for the people who were tracking them down and killing them (despite it being her job to catch the killers). Dexter himself admits that they sicken him. The tapes themselves, which the viewers listen to, are pure horror. When Dexter and Lumen (the last victim who managed to get away) finally have Jordan at their mercy, he taunts Lumen about what he did to her, mocking her for being so "pathetic" and "helpless". When Lumen plunges her dagger into Jordan's chest, the only thing unsatisfactory about it all is how quick his death was. Unlike the Ice Truck Killer, Miguel and Trinity, none of these monsters are presented with a Freudian Excuse, making their actions all the more horrific.
Here's the final recap of group examples:
- Anime & Manga
- The Undertakers from Deadman Wonderland
- The Novas from Freezing
- The Primevals and Soul Masters from Gao Gai Gar
- Shirou Hisujikai's army of high school delinquents from Ookami-san
- Fan Works
- Nihilators from Brave New World
- The Horizon Corporation, the Federation Of The Stars, and Vasari from Friends of a Solar Empire
- The Sound Village from Naruto Vs Sasuke The Aftermath
- The Dominus Lords and the sellouts from Prophecies of the Morphing Grid
- The Dark Young from The Stars Will Aid Their Escape
- Film
- The kidnappers from Big Jake
- The Nazis from Conspiracy
- The police and robber gang from Hobo With A Shotgun
- Island Staff from The Island. Remove last line.
- Rapists from I Spit On Your Grave
- The murderers from The Last House on the Left
- Live-Action TV
- The demons from Angel o Demonio
- The EE Kids from The Closer
- The "Fannysmackin" gang from CSI
- Jordan's gang from Dexter. As sick as they are, only Jordan himself qualifies as a monster.
- The white supremacists and Satanists from Walker Texas Ranger
- Tabletop Games
- The Dolfurynote from Mortasheen
If no one objects I will take this list to the requests page.
edited 11th Apr '13 12:41:18 PM by randomtroper89
On the ymmv page for last house on the left, it just lists Krug, the leader of the group. I sugest we change the movie's entry on the film page so that it only mentons him.
Heres his ymmv entry:
Krug is an absolutely revolting pschyopath that cares for no-one but himself, not even his own son.
edited 10th Apr '13 3:30:14 PM by bobg
jjj
Also, the very first example on the Tabletop Games page is a group.
edited 10th Apr '13 3:27:43 PM by Camberf
Thanks, I'll add that to my list.
edited 10th Apr '13 3:58:35 PM by randomtroper89
I am curious to know where all the various versions of Norman Osborn/Green Goblin are in the "Is he a complete monster?" scale. I know that it was discussed that the comic-verse version of him was one while the movie-verse version was not.
Anyways, while I can't say anything about any of the other versions of him, I would like to the nominate the Ultimate Spider-Man animated series version of Green Goblin.
The only issues I would see is that it may be too soon (since Green Goblin himself has only appeared in three episodes even though Norman has appeared in about half of Season One), and since the show tends to be lighthearted, he may fail the heinous standard. However, the show does get dark when Green Goblin is around. Also, he's barely played for comedy.
Anyways, the reason I mention Green Goblin in particular is because Norman does care about his son Harry. Green Goblin, on the other hand, has several major kick the puppy moments that involve his son. Also, he's shown that he could care less about Harry after he rejects him.
As for why he would qualify: -As Norman Osborn, the only thing he's shown to care about is power. He also attempted to kill Doc. Ock, so Spidey and S.H.I.E.L.D. wouldn't find out that Doc. Ock was working for him and has ruined Doc. Ock's life. Also, when he found out that his son was Venom? Was actually delighted instead of horrified.
-When he becomes Green Goblin, he manages to crush Dr. Connor's arm and ends up going after Harry to turn him into Venom again. His method for turning his son into Venom? By shocking him. And when Harry ends up rejecting the symbiote? He rejects his son, takes the symbiote with him, and leaves Harry behind to drown. He later ends up going after Peter, kidnaps Peter, injects the symbiote into Peter, and shows delight when Carnage (what Peter becomes after being injected with symbiote) starts trashing the place. Later, after Harry's rejected the symbiote again, he grabs his son, brings his son to the top of the building, ends up telling his son how proud he is of him for what happened that day, and in a horrifying subversion of what could be a heartwarming moment drops him right after. Also, ends up manically laughing sometime after this.
So, would Green Goblin count, or is it too soon to tell? Or could no one in that series be a Complete Monster thanks to its mostly lighthearted nature?
I don't about the comics, but in the Spider-Man animated series(the 90s one) very few of the villains veer into complete monster territory.
There is no Planet B
RE: The X-Files, thanks for your feedback, especially Occasional Exister. I send you a cookie :-) (That's what's used for rewards around here, yes? ;-))
I agree that The X Files could use its own subpage. I'll try to write it all up the weekend and put it here for final critique.
About Modell aka Pusher from The X-Files: He actually never shows affection for his sister, if my memory serves right. But his treatment of Mulder and police force in his second episode exonerates him. (IMO, it didn't make much sense considering his ideas and deeds from his first episode, but whatever. Yeah, I'm kind of bitter. They ruined a perfectly good character.)
RE: Cold Case and CSI @ Hamburger Time. Excellent! ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
I'm looking forward to seeing the writes-up. Feel free to PM me if you'd like some insights on the final resolutions or example write-up polishing.
Re: Sweeney Todd: I was referring to film!judge Turpin. He really struck me as nasty and worst of them all. Nothing remotely good in him. The others... not so much and had an excuse, reason or some positive trait.
RE: Dexter: Agree that Dexter entries at Monster.Live Action TV could use some changes.
- The last paragraph could be the general info stuff at the beginning.
- The entry on The Skinner (G. King) is ok I think.
- Jordan Chase. Yes, it's only him who qualifies. But the entry is fine and fairly in-depth, so just make small changes so that's clear that his comrades don't count.
- I think some of Dexter's (Asshole) Victims of the Week could qualify, and if someone is willing to bring them up, ok, go ahead, but the problem might be that their murders and nastiness might not have been shown on-screen.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
I just figured out that's a useful internet writing thingy which is used sometimes. It's shorter to write film!Turpin and play!Turpin than Turpin in the film and Turpin in the play. I don't know whether it has a deeper meaning. ;-)
Ah, that is a cool thing. I didn't know that.
edited 10th Apr '13 6:42:44 PM by XFllo
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
What's with the film!Judge thing? I see this often; is this some stylistic thing I'm missing?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
On the group examples, there are also the rapists from I Spit On Your Grave.
Also, I know we will need to get rid of the murderers/rapists from last house on the left, but can we keep Krug (the leader), and chang the entry to reflect that?
jjj
Isn't that the movie that's like, 75% rape or something? Don't think I'll ever watch that one, no sir, because I think I'd get either really disgusted or really bored.
They're Characterization Tags. Started in fanfiction communities, and has been slowly spreading outward into fandom in general.
edited 10th Apr '13 5:50:03 PM by Nocturna
X Files may need its own subpage.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts