Broken Base Cleanup

Bringing up these examples from Future Quest:

• Broken Base:
  • The comic's disregard of the more comedic versions of the characters. Some feel it's proper for a more serious reboot while others think that because those incarnations are popular, the writers should find some way to incorporate elements from them into the comic.
  • Space Ghost's real name being Kyr instead of Thaddeus, and the comic going out of its' way to say he doesn't like interviews.

The first entry sounds legitimate, but the second entry should be deleted for being a Zero Context Example that doesn't acknowledge both sides.

Alright here's the examples from super girl.

I recommend cutting the casting as she has become near universally considered a good choice for this role, the trailer for being pre-release, Superman's involvement as he is an Ensemble Dark Horse through and through and not too involved that he overshadows her and they didnt kill him off like this speculation says and the stuff at the comic-con for having nothing to do with the actual show and already being in internet back draft. But what else do you think should go.

Broken Base:

• Casting Melissa Benoist as Supergirl, while reasonably well-received, still met considerable opposition from people who wanted Claire Holt. After the Pilot however, it seems that everyone is approving Melissa Benoist's performance.
• Superman's involvement. When the character list was first released, the first thing most people noticed was the absence of Superman despite several members of his supporting cast being used. This led to a faction that wants no involvement from Superman, letting Kara be the one and only Kryptonian. However, after a while casting tapes leaked and they referred to Superman heavily, leading to dissent from people who don't want Kara to be under her more famous cousin's shadow. When it was revealed that Superman would make a full appearance in Season 2 of Supergirl the base broke a little more - while there are many who are happy to finally see the Last Son of Krypton in action in the small screen, many are worried about how involved he'll be, with some going on to assume that they're going to kill him off once his time is up so that he doesn't overshadow Kara.
• The first trailer. Some fans liked it for its upbeat tone akin to classic Superman stories, while others criticized it for long sections that felt right out of a Chick Flick and compared it to a parody trailer about Black Widow released by Saturday Night Live a week earlier.
• The scene where Cat Grant defends the name "Supergirl" against Kara's suggestion of "Superwoman" by claiming that it's empowering for women to use "girl" for themselves as they see fit. Some would agree, some wouldn't for it being ageist/sexist, some think the whole woman vs. girl issue is pointless.
• The show's heavy feminist messages and whether they're being overdone and poorly handled or a case of Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped. Even this page got some edit warring over the subject when the show first aired.
• The show being on a different universe than the "prime" Arrowverse. Some fans feel that this avoids the potential awkwardness of forcing Superman, a well-known and public figure at this point in the show, into a universe that seemingly has never heard of him before. Others feel that it was a waste of potential, seeing that the lore built up by the show can never be a part of the universe built up by the CW. Some of these fans are hoping that a universe "crisis", like the kind DC Comics is known for, can occur that will merge the two universes into one.
• Season 2 dumping the Kara/James romance and subsequently setting Kara up with Mon-El. The show is either wisely ditching a relationship that didn't have much chemistry, or sidelining one of its only characters of color in favor of a white guy who's just as big a Base-Breaking Character as James. As alluded to above, the accusation that the writers had Kara dump James just so they could pair her up with a white dude has also added some fuel to the fire.
• While Maggie's storyline with Alex has been well received, there's a segment of fans who dislike the idea of Maggie being with anyone other than Kate Kane, her former love interest from the comics. There's also a smaller segment of fans who are angry about the show omitting Toby Raynes, Maggie's original girlfriend.
• The announcement that Floriana Lima would be downgraded from a regular cast member in Season 3, with many fans understandably worried about what this will mean for her and Alex's relationship, especially given the CW's large role in the massive swath of Bury Your Gays across a bunch of TV shows the previous year. Although it was at least made clear that it's entirely Lima's own decision, as she was caught off guard by her upgrade to regular, and wanted time to pursue other jobs. The crew also made sure to put in a shot of the two warmly smiling at each other in the Season 3 trailer.
• The SDCC 2017 incident described below in the Internet Backdraft entry. Some people are angered by what happened. Others point out a few things:
  • Jeremy Jordan never said Kara and Lena couldn't get together because they were two girls, just that they weren't going to get together because they were only friends. A statement that can be said for just about any non-canon couple comprised of two friends.
  • The supercorp shippers, who were the main group offended, have a history of harassing those who don't ship supercorp, and even the writers and actors (namely Chris Wood; Mehcad Brooks; and Rahul Kohili, the latter of whom played Lena's ex for one episode and was attacked online by supercorp shippers claiming Lena was gay). So most who aren't upset about the SDCC 2017 incident view it as karma.

edited 13th Nov '17 6:00:51 AM by miraculous

There having been no objections, I've copied BrokenBase.Live Action TV over to Sandbox.Broken Base Live Action TV (in case anyone cares to doublecheck my work for more salvageable entries) and cleaned out the vast majority of entries on the live page.

Will move on to BrokenBase.Music next.

edited 13th Nov '17 8:02:27 AM by HighCrate

Unsurprisingly, BrokenBase.Music is a garbage fire of 'general' examples, natter, Thread Mode, Zero Context Examples, and shoehorning. Potentially salvageable entries:

• Within the dubstep fandom, fans of the more bass-driven, minimalistic sounds of Burial or Skream and fans of the more aggressive "Brostep" such as Flux Pavilion or Rusko get into flame wars that you wouldn't believe. There is no middle ground.
• AFI seem to have a solid divide between fans of their hardcore punk period of 1994-2000 and their goth-influenced works from 2003 on, with rather ugly flamewars raging to this day. Neither side seems to like Crash Love much, however.
• This happened to the British indie band The Horrors. The songs on their first album and their singles were fast, short bursts of goth-influenced garage punk often not lasting more than two minutes. Then in early 2009 came the video for "Sea Within A Sea", the first single from their second album. It was slower, more atmospheric and Joy Division-sounding and most troubling to fans, eight minutes long. Some fans cried bloody murder. Other fans welcomed the new sound with open arms and praised their new tighter sound. Needless to say, any forum discussing the band has degraded down to two dozen active flame wars about the subject between the two sides.
• In Flames' older albums are often praised for being melodic death metal masterpieces, but when they changed their sound in 2002 with Reroute to Remain it caused a bitter flame war between "old" and "new" In Flames fans that still hasn't ceased; if you look on a comments section involving In Flames anywhere, it's very likely there'll be a debate (or flamewar) over new vs. old In Flames.

On YMMV.Netflix

• Broken Base: The increased production of Netflix Originals, content produced exclusively for Netflix. While quite a few have been released to critical acclaim, it has increasingly led to debate over whether Netflix would be better focusing their budget on increasing their licenses for more well known tv shows and movies.

Burn that as creators cannot have a Broken Base.

I'll also cut the incorrect enteries for Supergirl 2015 that I mentioned should be gone.

edited 13th Nov '17 12:04:48 PM by miraculous

YMMV.Pokemon I Choose You has a bunch of examples based on prerelease material. Cut?

Creators can totally have a Broken Base, but I don't think that Netflix one is a valid example. The vast majority of people just enjoy watching stuff and don't spare a second thought about where the company is allocating their funds.

And yeah, Pokemon I Choose You is barely out. Cutting on principle.

edited 13th Nov '17 5:50:40 PM by HighCrate

Here's Justice League Action

• Broken Base:
  • Wonder Woman's hairstyle. Some think it's cool and stylish while others think it's a weird looking mix of Anime Hair and '80s Hair.
  • The 10-minute format. It's the third DC cartoon after Krypto The Super Dog and Teen Titans Go! to follow the format. Some fans are turned off by the format as that means less time for character development or plot, while others don't mind and cite other shows that work well with the same time slot.
  • The emphasis on "action". A large part of what made previous cartoons interesting were the characters. Word of God is Justice League Action focuses on action over plot. This annoys many older fans who think it'll get boring after a while without much backstory behind it. On the other side, many fans hope this cartoon will help revive action cartoons and will give rise to more 30-minute DC cartoons.
  • The fact that Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill are coming back to voice Batman and The Joker respectively, while Susan Eisenberg and George Newbern or Tim Daly won't as Wonder Woman and Superman and are, instead, replaced with Rachel Kimsey and Jason J. Lewis have fans either disappointed that the main three's iconic voices won't be heard, or willing to give the new actors a chance and see how they do.
    • There's also fans who felt that not having the voice actors from Justice League squanders the potential of rebooted Justice League show, while others don't exactly mind this change.
  • The revelation that Superman and Wonder Woman are dating has some fans upset that Steve and Lois are being sidelined. They do bring up that they have feelings for Steve and Lois, but they seem to like the super hero identities over their civilian ones.
  • Big Barda's design. It may turn some people off given how thick her lips are...and how odd her head in general looks compared to the rest of her.

I dont think the hairstyle and Barda's design are that big an issue to get you this trope as most people dont mind. Also 10 minutes are done plenty of good cartoons, so I didnt see anyone actually complainig about that one, though I could be wrong.

Also, the entries about the emphasis on action and voice actors are worded as if they were written pre-release, which is grounds for removal.

Yes, I checked it was written pre-release and since there don't seem to be any valid examples, Ill cut everything like Pokemon I Choose You.ill only keep the stuff with superman and wonder women being a couple as that got a fierce amount of debate thanks to how controversial that pairing is.

edited 14th Nov '17 3:51:35 AM by miraculous

Here is another one from Star Trek Discovery which I cut because the show JUST started :

• Broken Base: Complaints from longtime fans about the Darker and Edgier storytelling, Klingon redesign, advanced technology, and resemblance to the Kelvin timeline have been heavy. So has the fact it's only available on CBS All Access for Americans. Nevertheless, the show has quite a fandom that is enjoying the serialized storytelling versus episodic adventures, the heavy focus on characterization, the aforementioned darker and edgier elements, the diverse cast, as well as the fact that Star Trek is finally back on the air.

edited 14th Nov '17 5:02:45 AM by miraculous

Went on another subpage cleaning jag:

Copied BrokenBase.Music over to Sandbox.Broken Base Music in case anyone wishes to check for more salvageable examples and cut the majority of the page.

Copied BrokenBase.Professional Wrestling over to Broken Base Professional Wrestling and cutting the page, as virtually none of the entries have anything even approaching the necessary context.

Cut BrokenBase.Religion, as classifying religious beliefs as a "fanbase" is a stretch at best and insulting at worst.

Copied BrokenBase.Sports over to Sandbox.Broken Base Sports and cut the page; there may be a valid example or two in there if someone more knowledgeable cares to add context, but the vast majority of entries are of the "Vanilla or chocolate?" variety without attempting to establish any criteria.

Copied BrokenBase.Tabletop Games over to Sandbox.Broken Base Tabletop Games and cut the page. It's exceptionally nattery and complain-y.

edited 14th Nov '17 7:52:15 PM by HighCrate

Uh Here's the examples from Uchu Sentai Kyuranger. The civiailn forms and no. of members are pre-relase and an instant cut as they have done fine with the number and no one complained and said diffeent looking memebers are of the Ensemble Dark Horse variety, so this is no longer an issue. Lucky's catchphrase and number of power-up's got toned down later, so neither entries are long term. People havent complained about the Kyulette as far as I know and the whole point of it is to avoid the possible issue of having too many members detailed in bullet 2.They also left earth, only 2 freaking episodes after the second last entry was put up and only came back in 1 episode of 12 later and not even for the whole episode, so that is seriously short term. Basically just let me cut everything except the number of female members as that seems to be the only, valid long term argument but Ill rewrite it though so its not pre-release.

• Broken Base:
  • Although the first pics of the show has received overall positive reception, some have expressed annoyance that out of the nine member team, only two of them are female.
    • This issue was only exacerbated as new Kyurangers were revealed, and none of them were girls.
  • Another problem is starting with a nine-person team. While other seasons have had higher than the usual six, half of the Rangers on those teams were introduced over time, and weren't part of the main team full-time. Starting the series with a nine Ranger team has some fearing that the season will be too cluttered to keep track of everybody.
  • The civilian forms for Garu, Balance, Champ, and Raptor and whether they take away from the season's pre-premier hype. Likewise is whether they can or should transform into "human" identities similarly to the Zyuohgers.
  • Lucky's catchphrase "YOSSHA LUCKY!" can make or break you. Very evident in Space 1 where he spews it at least nine times, with three of those times happening before the opening credits roll.
    • Thinking about it, 9 is the Arc Number this season
  • The Kyulette: A fun inventive method to divide up the screen time between the rangers or a budget-induced gimmick that abolishes the major gimmick of there being nine active rangers?
  • The fact that, by Space 4, the Kyurangers are on Earth. Some people are interested in why Earth is important enough to have multiple members of Jark Matter occupying it while others find that it's a cheap way to destroy the space faring concept of Kyuranger and ponder that them fighting to save Earth will last the rest of the series.
  • Lucky getting the Lion's share of power ups is getting on some people's nerves, from magazine scans alone he already gets at least first dibs on the Pegasus, Sun/Moon and Saiko kyutamas, with sun and moon having two sides and modes to give, thus making Lucky get *4* whole SuperModes. compared to other red rangers like Yamato who got 3 powerups with Gorilla, Whale and All animals unleashed in the Finale, and Daigo who got 5, but they all came at once so they could be counted as one.

edited 15th Nov '17 10:10:29 AM by miraculous

YMMV.Your Name

• Broken Base:
  • Whether the score is fitting and suitably atmospheric, or the vocal ones generic and insipid and the ambient pieces just forgettable.
  • Whether the plot twists are part of the appeal that elevates the film beyond just another "Freaky Friday" Flip, or simply make it more convoluted than needed, specially considering that the biggest one (Taki and Mitsuha were also time travelling while switching bodies), creates some major Plot Holes^note Namely, that they switch bodies for weeks, maybe even months. And yet, they never realize that they were in different years, which feels next to impossible. Specially considering that they were leaving notes for each other in their respective cellphones. On a diary app, at that.
  • The news that J. J. Abrams is in talks to direct a live action version of the film. Considering how divisive Abrams already is among movie fans, as well as the lackluster performance some other recent live action anime adaptations, this news would obviously be met with mixed reception.

The first two are about general reception, not contention in the fanodom and the last is pre-release info.

Should I burn it down and burn it to the ground?

Doing a 30 second search it looks like the Hollywood stuff is pre-release gossip and shouldn't count. Feel free to get rid of it.

At this rate of cleanup we might be able to delete the sub-pages for Broken Base and just add the examples back to the main page. How often is it that something like that happens on this site?

edited 15th Nov '17 6:50:13 PM by DocJamore

Alright next up Evillious Chronicles. I'd say cut the first one as that has nothing to do with the base and is just people pondering and is not a vicious and sustained argument and the second one as it got resolved. The others can be kept as they are genuine Broken Base entries although maybe move Allen to Base-Breaking Character as he'd fit there better rather than as a Broken Base.

• Broken Base:
  • Is the Evillious Chronicles essentially a huge Vocaloid fanfiction, where the various Vocaloids play the characters as Animated Actors? Or is it an entirely separate story where Vocaloid should be viewed as purely inspiration for designs and the voices used in songs? Generally it depends on whether someone joined the fandom in its early days or after much of its complex internal canon was revealed.
  • Some areas of the fandom grew very divided over whether or not to accept the Master of the Hellish Yard as a real world, Nazi-esque figure that new information suggested instead of the supernatural demonic entity that the series previously implied she was. Later revelations about the nature of the Master of the Hellish Yard negated this, however.
  • Whether or not Allen is overused as a character became a minor split among some fans, with his inclusion as a POV character for Cloture, presence in several short stories, and his reincarnation into the Tailor of Enbizaka novel. What side you're on typically depends on if you think of him as an overarching protagonist similar to the likes of Elluka, or just a Creator's Pet that mothy decided to keep around.
  • The increasingly heavy reliance on plot twists to move the plot forwards has polarized many fans. While some are appreciative of how it keeps the story interesting and unpredictable, others find the repeat revelations of varying scale to be contrived and gratuitous, as well coming to the detriment of things like character development and pacing.
  • The Reveal that Kayo killed the Miroku's out of revenge is probably the most controversial twist in the series. Either it's a good twist that makes Kayo more interesting and tragic, or it's a completely gratuitous twist that throws a perfectly fine narrative and creates a heaping amount of Fridge Logic.

YMMV.Song Of The Sea

• Broken Base: The films conclusion. Some love it and find it lovely and fitting, others dislike the idea of Saoirse losing out on an eternity in paradise to live with a family that spent most of the movie either neglecting or mistreating her.

I think it's a case where the fanbase isn't big enough to have an example.

I cut this from Thor Ragnarok as its only been two weeks since it premiered and fails the long term argument test.

Broken Base: The comedy.

• The movie is very funny and probably the most hilarious Marvel movie to date. However, there are plenty who feel the film is going too far with its humor. Many emotional moments throughout the movie are victims of Mood Whiplash. For example, Thor and the remaining Asgardians watch Asgard get destroyed by Surtur. Korg assures everyone that once the fiery giant finishes his rampage, they will rebuild a new Asgard on the remaining foundations. Then Surtur blows up the entire landmass Asgard was situated on, obliterating it into a small asteroid field. Korg makes an awkward quip. People felt this joke and many others completely undermined what should've been giant Tear Jerkers. It can also rob the dramatic moments of all drama, and the very film itself of any sense of narrative tension... if the characters in the film refuse to take anything going on seriously, why should the audience?
• Others, however, defend this by noting that the MCU in general have not really built up Asgard and invested it in enough for audiences to really care about its downfall, and the message of the film, about Asgard being built on imperialism, lies, and propaganda, that Ragnarok is paradoxically a moment of redemption and Dawn of an Era for its people to escape its past, means that treating it with a light touch is not unfitting.
• What's more, as stated below in Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy, much of the humor was originally cut from the film, but was added back in because test audiences found the film to be rather boring without it.

That entry reeks of personal opinion anyway, so even if it didn't fail the "long-term conflict" requirement, it would have needed a rewrite.

Found this on Fate Stay Night Unlimited Blade Works . Iv watched it but Im Unfamiliar with the fandom and I highly doubt everything here counts as an example of Broken Base, so could somone familiar give me some info:

• Broken Base: Veterans of the original visual novel were initially really excited for this series when it was first announced, but a number of factors turned what was once universal adulation into a very divided and combative core fanbase. Something that grew bigger as the series went on. The stand out examples are:
  • The choice of Takahiro Miura as director when announced was the first major fracture. His previous work was the sixth Kara No Kyoukai movie, which is widely agreed to be the weakest entry in that series.
  • The fact that it's an adaptation of the Unlimited Blade Works route also caused a split between those who were happy it was getting an anime adaption due to the poor storytelling of The Movie and those who were bothered it wasn't going to be an adaptation of the Fate route or, before the film was announced, Heaven's Feel. Some even felt like it should have been a composite of the three routes or even an entirely new scenario written solely for this moment.
  • There is some over Illya appearing naked in Episode 4. Some are Squicked by the pedophilia undertones, others believe It Makes Sense in Context and wasn't meant to be read as fanservice.
  • The soundtrack received some mixed reception. Some think it's decent, some like it because it fits the tone well without being distracting, and others complain that it's barely noticeable in some key scenes. It hurts that the previous series (the 2006 anime, the 2010 film, and Fate Zero) and the VN were rife with Awesome Music.
    • The second season's OST received an overall much better reception, with Fukasawa providing both excellent remixes of classic VN tracks (including what many fans are calling the best version of EMIYA ever) and really solid original compositions - except the official release of the soundtrack left out a lot of these positively received tracks, from the remix of Last Strength from the VN to Berserker's anime-original theme, which leaves a lot of fans baffled.
  • There is a serious disconnect regarding Shirou's actions in Episode 12's Hostage Situation between people who are just watching the anime versus people who have read the visual novel. The former group see it as a completely idiotic move whereas the latter try to explain how it's not as stupid as it looks (due to the anime not including every single detail of the scenario from the VN), often falling on deaf ears.
  • The anime started adding more and more original scenes while downplaying a lot of other elements from the VN (in particular internal monologues and explanations of some of the verse's more complex subjects). One major point of contention was the anime's expansion of Caster's backstory which Type-Moon vets felt took time away from other plot points that needed to be addressed.
  • Related to Base-Breaking Character, the show's portrayal of Shirou. An interview with Miura from the first BD boxset set tempers flaring as VN readers felt he didn't understand Shirou's character that well, resulting in a flanderized portrayal of him as an incompetent Everyman way in over his head.
  • Complaints of ufotable rushing the series became a lot more prominent as of the second half, mostly during the Caster arc.
  • Then ironically after that, there were many complaints about how Archer and Shirou's fight was stretched out over 3 episodes (19, 20, and 21). The fight itself is rather stale and repetitive with Archer's rants to Shirou taking up most of the episodes' run times. It hurts that the "music" is just... boring, and it's the same songs throughout Episodes 20 and 21 over and over again except for Last Stardust at the end of 20. When you can make EMIYA repetitive and stale, something is definitely wrong.
  • The fact that in Episode 22, ufotable chose to use the Bleached Underpants version of the mana transfer scene from Realta Nua (complete with Narmy CG dolphins) rather than even hint at Shirou and Rin having sex pissed off a portion of the VN readers who were expecting the series to not shy away from some of the more mature material. Others prefer the Realta Nua scene, feeling that it makes more sense in the context of the story and Rin's characterization, and that the original sex scene was a Big-Lipped Alligator Moment.
  • Episode 24. As the episode was basically one huge love letter to the visual novel (including no fewer than four remixes of VN music), it's no surprise that VN fanboys exploded with joy at it. On the other hand, Many Gilgamesh fans exploded with fury over Gilgamesh getting defeated by a mere human and especially over Archer's return being cited as the biggest Ass Pull of the entire series. These are both things that VN fans like to point out have been canon to the franchise for over a decade.
  • The last, but definitely not least argument about the story is its thematic discussion about the nature of altruistic heroism. Propents found the argument compelling and the addition of a physical fight making for a thrilling visual metaphor. Naysayers found the argument poorly executed at best, and pretentious and nonsensical at worst, in a "this is not even remotely as smart nor meaningful as it thinks it is" fashion. There's also the view that the argument loses much coherence outside of its original medium, where it relied on the meta-narrative created by reading the three routes. It should be noted that this perception is deeply tied to your opinion on Shirou as a character.
  • The English dub cast was announced on July 2015, and... to say that Bryce Papenbrook as Shirou is controversial is a pretty big understatement. Replacing Liam O'Brien with Kaiji Tang for Archer also got people worked up.

edited 20th Nov '17 11:34:14 PM by miraculous

I removed this from YMMV.Doki Doki Literature Club for failing literally all of the criteria:

• Broken Base: While not as divisive as many other examples, there is quite the debate on whether the game would work as a normal dating sim with some of the more serious topics (i.e. Sayori's depression, Yuri's self harm, and Natsuki's Abusive Parents intact), or if it would just be yet another generic harem game.

@The Fate/Stay Night: Unlimted Blade Works entry. I don't see a single good example on that list. I say cut the whole thing.

edited 20th Nov '17 12:46:45 PM by mrbits

Maybe keep the Bleached Underpants one. It's not minor given all the persistent memes about it from detractors. And move the Caster backstory and English Dub ones to They Changed It, Now It Sucks!.

edited 20th Nov '17 3:47:10 PM by AlleyOop