Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

And that's not even going into how he basically controls the Ultimo universe's personification of Jealousy. Ultimo is freaking complicated, but it's a Hiroyuki Takei manga, that's to be expected... XD

Actually, you might need to get into that so that I could make a reasonable judgment. Controlling the personification of one of the Seven Deadly Sins could alter how I look at the character.

Okay, cool. Here comes another massive post, be warned!

Dunstan, who is apparently millions of years old, was once a respected scientist, but in his later years, went a bit nuts and decided to figure out who would win in a fight, good or evil. To do this, he made 1000 doji, or dolls, and they've been set, in the present, to fight each other in a massive bloodbath that will probably destroy the entire world, called the Thousand Machine Funeral. The most powerful doji on each side are based on the Seven Heavenly Virtues and the Seven Deadly Sins. Going into our concern, Rune controls the doji for Jealousy.

What makes this interesting is that Rune agrees to let Jealousy be partnered with him, as opposed to Rune just finding Jealousy (which is pretty much what happened with all the other doji masters, or is implied to have happened). Again, this ties into Love Makes You Evil (damn this trope is confusing everything) - after being made aware of his past, Rune agrees to be Jealousy's master. On one hand, there were obvious seeds of nutsoness in Rune before this happened: he had a really frightening Stalker Shrine for Yamato, and it's implied that Jealousy just brought pre-existing frustrations to the forefront. Also notable is that Jealousy had absolutely nothing to do with the aforementioned attempted rape - that was all Rune, which gives the implication that he's evil, and just allied with a similar evil. On the other hand, Rune's Start of Darkness is pretty much directly after Jealousy makes Rune aware of his past life, where he was happily married to Yamato before the Ultimate Good doji Ultimo murdered her (...yeah, this is Gray-and-Gray Morality: The Manga). Jealousy definitely manipulated Rune with that information.

But when time is reversed to avoid the Thousand Machine Funeral that would destroy the world (I know this sounds like it makes no sense, I'm so sorry), and the Good Doji side try to change time to avoid the Thousand Machine Funeral for a second time, Rune not only sides with Jealousy AGAIN, but goes completely Axe-Crazy, carrying out said attempted rape, threatening to murder Yamato's love interest Sayama, and treating his own love interest like total shit. These actions are treated as being much more heinous than the actions of the doji manifestation of Vice, the worst of the Seven Deadly Sins, for what it's worth.

Fucking time travel, man. I think I'm gonna reread my volumes again, see if I was missing anything.

I've read only the first five volumes of Ultimo, but I think that's enough to say that Rune is not a Complete Monster. It is shown that Rune and Iruma were both good people before they bonded with Jealousy, but having Jealousy made them go crazy. Also, I've read that Rune lets Yamato go in Volume 6. He had nothing to gain from this, but seeing as I haven't actually read that part, I have no idea what his motivations were.

Furthermore, Rune has all the memories of his previous incarnation, who was sympathetic. Also, his villainous actions are trying to win Yamato over. Rune isn't a Complete Monster. He's a Yandere.

You keep using that trope. I do not think it means what you think it means.

A Start of Darkness is a prequel that reveals how a villain turned evil, not an action leading to a Face–Heel Turn.

I took a look at Fairy Tail, and I wonder if any of them fit.

I think entire groups are exempt, right?

This guy was portrayed as an absolute joke. No way he qualifies.

Maaaaaaaaaybe. Still not exactly sure.

Hmm, no redeeming qualities, but may not be heinous enough.

I say he's legit—-killing your allies is a big deal in this series.

Not sure. They're jerks and somewhat evil, but....

His motivation seemed to be boredom to me. Whatever it was, it wasn't a change of heart or any realization that rape is probably not the best way to go about making someone love you.

My problem with this, and I really don't want to seem Single-Issue Wonk here, so no offense is meant by arguing your point, is that Rune might have his memories of his past, but the only thing he really focuses on is how he was meant to be with Yamato (hence, Love Makes You Evil and/or Crazy). Jealousy, to me, seems less like the puppetmaster holding Rune's strings, and more like Rune's means to an end, hooking up with Yamato. Also, you have to make a distinction - does being a good person in a past life redeem your reincarnation?

Also, Rune was a good person before being linked to Jealousy is debateable. We do know that he's got Single-Target Sexuality, and hard, for Yamato, bordering on Stalker with a Crush, but since so much of the early work focuses on Yamato and Sayama, it'd be hard to determine what Rune was thinking about the whole thing.

Topic change, I didn't realize that's what the trope meant - I've seen it used in relation to Loki in Thor, which was kind of why I assumed the meaning of it here. Thank God I haven't been putting it on pages! XD

edited 27th Jun '12 12:01:47 PM by LargoQuagmire

I actually have a problem with Cousin Eddie. He is stopped before his plan (ruining a wedding) could succeed. Also compared to the other villains, he's absolutely harmless. Two I don't remember him doing anything worse than any other villain or getting more than a timeout (which is fitting). Should we axe him as the only criteria he fits is "No Remorse".

I would like to replace the current page Monster.Fire Emblem with this sandbox that I have cleaned up for grammar, spelling, and first person. I've had myself and at least one person in the thread check through for factual accuracies, so I'm led to believe that everything here qualifies.

edited 27th Jun '12 1:09:31 PM by DarkConfidant

To be fair, nobody is going to call you a Single-Issue Wonk when it's perfectly clear (as it is here) that you were asked to give more detail by someone who is undecided. That's the province of those who continue to provide the same details as before to folks when folks have already made their decision. In other words, you're doing quite fine, Largo.

Geez, lots to go through. Busy night of troping tonight.

I have more villains that need to be removed;

• Depending on your interpretation of her character, Clara La Guerta, who is a pregnant girl who says she was impregnanted by her employer, Harold Thornton, then thrown out on the street with her child. You go to get some money from Harold to support her, but he denies it, challenging you to a duel. He dies. Upon giving her the money, she is clearly distraught at the news of Harold's death. A few days later, you see Mrs Thornton. Clara apparently turned up to laugh at Harold's funeral, and Mrs Thornton casts doubt on the whole story. Thus, the possibility of Clara being a deranged, lying, vengeful bitch who manipulated you into killing an innocent man for no reason whatsoever is a very real one. Her status as a minor Karma Houdini makes this even worse.

She is from Red Dead Redemption and her actions seem mild compared to other villains, and also it only an interpretation. Isn't a CM supposed to be a CM for sure?

Just saw an entry that characters in a Rugrats movie were complete monsters. Seriously?

edited 27th Jun '12 2:33:10 PM by Jordan

I'd like to have Spike from Mighty Max to be added to the Western Animation page. He murdered Norman's father and threatened to kill Norman when he was still a kid in the most brutal way possible. Literally eating his heart. In no way he's portrayed for comedy and was a virtual unstoppable juggernaut, making him Nightmare Fuel incarnate since even Norman was struggling against him.

Wow, a lot of examples to talk about;

@ SSM, did Spike just kill one person? Why? And one person's death doesn't make a CM, so if that's all you written I would oppose such a inclusion

@ Money-Krystoff, I'd cut it due to how vague it seems (it's relying on the notion that both Thorton's are telling the truth and the other woman is the liar).

@ Dark Confident, once you're sure it's done we'll holler for a mod to make the swap, best to get it done in one shot than have it take several revisions

@ I Disagree, if he showed remorse for his aborted plan (or anything else) then you can make the request to get it cut.

@ Lu, groups are dependent on the size. A large organisation? No, they can't be C Ms. A small, focused team? Eaiser to justify.

And I'm not going to get into the small-essay example here.

I'm done. The sandbox is done at Sandbox.Fire Emblem Monster, and since the page is unlocked, I could swap it in at any time. But I'd rather wait for at least one person to check over it before we do so.

Okay, having had some time to mull through that (okay, and check out some new toys that just got delivered)...

Okay, as mentioned before, Griffith (I keep saying Griffin; don't know why I always make that mixup) of Berserk is a depiction of how a character can be led so far down the path of Love Makes You Evil that they become a Complete Monster. So Rune from Ultimo isn't excluded for that. In fact, there's a large parallel here - in both cases, that desire was so perverted that they attempted to demonstrate it by raping the object of their "affection."

It seems the question ultimately does come down to the process of bonding with Jealousy. Do they make it explicit that bonding with Jealousy changes the would-be partner? Because if they don't, I think a valid interpretation is that bonding with Jealousy is not a personality shift, but instead proof of depravity in the world it's set. I think my final answer hinges on that question.

For Fairy Tail, yes, groups are exempt. My only question is that we may be misusing Always Chaotic Evil there - that trope does specify an entire race (as in, an entire species). I'm starting to worry that we're accidentally misuing a different trope to help end misuse of this one.

For Monsieur Sol, I'd need details of just how we was a joke... the example doesn't seem that outrageous, although it could be better.

Jose sounds pretty bad, but from what I understand, he fails the "heinous" standard based on how bad the world of Fairy Tail can be.

Zero sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villain - those don't belong here.

Zancrow sounds legit.

Raven Tail still runs afoul of the "groups do not qualify" rule. Technically, a group could qualify, but each member individually would have to be shown to qualify, and in my experience, authors seldom put in that much effort.

For Cousin Eddie, I'm going to try to break poor editing habits now. I won't even look at your example because you didn't mention the show's name in the post. Potholing a show's name in a character name is terrible style. Stop doing that.

On the Fire Emblem sandbox, the grammar is good, although I do see a couple examples that should be taken out. I would definitely scratch Jerme and Pascal, and I have the strong feeling that both Sonia (for the "heinous" standard) and Valter (the curse makes it sound like he wasn't so bad, once upon a time, thereby suggesting a redeeming quality) would have to be cut as well.

Clara should be removed, as the whole "it must be clear" part is important. Anything relying on that level of Alternate Character Interpretation needs to be cut. Also, if it turns out she was right, her callousness towards a man that she blames for her misery makes more sense. It would be a Cycle of Revenge issue instead.

I remember bit of the various Rugrats movies... just no. Sponge Bob Square Pants has more claim than those, and we already established that the latter doesn't have them.

I've looked over the Power Rangers page and I find a few examples that should be looked over:

• Dark Specter from Power Rangers In Space is possibly one of the most evil villains in the franchise. He is behind all other villains before, who fear and obey him, and is known as "Grand Monarch of Evil" and is evil incarnate and incredibly powerful and can spread evil and brainwash people by mind control ( he was the one who brainwashed Astronema/Karone and turned her into his personal right-hand henchwoman. He wants to take over the entire universe. Since he is a dark, demonic galactic overlord and is behind all villains and can spread evil, he definetly qualifes for this trope. While he is not as memorable as the other Big Bads, he is definitely one of the most evil villains in Power Rangers.

While that may be so, he hasn't done anything heinous onscreen than being a Generic Doomsday Villain and all of it is Offscreen Villainy. There's no proof he's the "Satan" of the series despite being behind all the other villains and that he looks big and scary. At the end of the day, he's a Generic Doomsday Villain.

• Note, one of said minions was her son! Oh, and to note: Said son is ALSO A COMPLETE MONSTER. Remember that little baby Impus from the beginning of the series? Yeah, he later is turned into an adult named Olympius. At the cost of former Big Bad Diabolico, of course. Olympius's own ORIGINS are pure evil. Then, his actions. He only cares about his mother, who gives him barely any love in return, even leaving Olympius stranded in torture for awhile. Then, when Diabolico is revived, the two become rivals. This becomes important after Diabolico's Heel–Face Turn after Bansheera forced him to kill his best friend Loki. Olympius proceeds to USE DIABOLICO AS HIS SLAVE. Olympius is taken down after the "I Know You're in There Somewhere" Fight Carter has with Diabolico, after which Diabolico weakens Olympius at the cost of his life, then Olympius is taken down. Bansheera finally takes the free will out of both of them and makes them grow. Diabolico didn't deserve the pain of the Life Force Megazord, but Olympius DEFINITELY did.

If someone is evil but still cares about his mother, he can't be a Complete Monster cause he cares about SOMETHING, and thus has some degree of empathy. So no, he's out for that reason alone. Complete Monster cannot have any degree of empathy, which makes him a scumbag, but not CM material. And there's a degree of bias here given all of the caps used.

And oh, if anyone complains, they can but please don't bring up a particularly famous example of "Even Bad Men Love Their Mamas" in Real Life(I think you know which one) to justify why as it would kill this discussion...

• Power Rangers Operation Overdrive has Flurious. He was shown as being more ruthless than his brother Moltor and treated Norg (dumb, but innocent Yeti) badly. He was the first of the two brothers to openly declare hostilities, attacking Moltor for the Corona Aurora and declaring "it's every man for himself" afterwards. What really pushes him into this territory is what he does in the final episodes: he tricked his brother, who'd came on his hands and knees and offerred peace, into handing over the Corona Aurora with an offer of friendship; however, Flurious kills him off in cold blood. And in finale, he freezes the entire city when he gets the rest of the jewels for the crown and decides to have Vella and Norg killed just because they weren't neccesary to him. It is satysfying to see him defeated by the Rangers.
  • Note, the Red Ranger blew up Flurious after he'd been defeated and reverted from his One-Winged Angel form. Flurious was so evil that finishing him off after he's already been beaten is a perfectly acceptable act!

It seems that the two brothers were at war and distrust for thousands of years, so from a Machiavellian standpoint, it was arguably justified that he took the other one out from paronia alone. Basically, my enemy wants peace after fighting with me for eons, can I trust him? No! I can't take any chances! "This is a war" mentality also has to be considered.

Plus while this was a Moral Event Horizon it happened very, very late in the series and one Moral Event Horizon does not a Complete Monster make.

And stating it's "every man for himself" doesn't make you a CM, it just means what it means.

Also trying to have the two characters killed just means he's a villain, and doing what a villain does. So all in all, he is disqualified from this trope for the same reasons that Rodrigo & Cesare Borgia was disqualified from qualifying as examples from the Assassins Creed series. So he's a class-A @$$hole, but not exactly a CM once all is said and done.

edited 28th Jun '12 8:06:50 AM by xie323

I can't speak for the first three since I've not played that game, but Valter is definitely the among the most depraved and evil villains in the series, and the game does not play on any redeeming features whatsoever. He's definitely presented as a truly complete monster.

The example may need to be rewritten slightly though.

edited 28th Jun '12 7:42:10 AM by DarkConfidant

Dark Specter definitely shouldn't belong - the only act of evil described there is brainwashing, and that alone is not going to get you Complete Monster status.

For Dark Specter's son, I'm automatically suspicious of any entry that uses all caps that much. The fact that he does show filial love indicates to me that we have the ever-popular 99% Monster being thrown in here.

Also, since this is a No Real Life Examples Please trope, nobody is going to bring up a comparison to any real person. If they did, they'd get shouted down fast, and probably get a Holler for a mod as garnish.

I'm actually inclined to let Flurious stay. For one thing, the piece makes it blatantly clear that the fight between them was due to his own actions. Second, it makes it clear that the murder happened after the fighting was over - unless the victim had a rep for trying sneaky backstabbing moves, that is murder in cold blood.

As for comparing Flurious to the Borgias, I'd like to point out that Rodrigo was disqualified for not being heinous in regards to the series as a whole. That bar is extremely high for Assassins Creed, but much lower for analyzing Power Rangers.

Finally, for Valter... if he is truly qualified, he'll need a much more robust description than what's currently in the sandbox. Again, the grammar is good, but the example as written makes me think it doesn't belong.

On Rune: It is explicitly shown that bonding with Jealousy changes a person. In volumes 4 and 5, Yamato travels back in time to when Jealousy's previous owner Iruma first got him, and sees that Iruma is a really awesome guy (Yamato's exact thoughts). Then the Big Bad, Dunstan, shows up and gives Jealousy to Iruma, causing him to become crazy and murderous. Later when Yamato confronts Dunstan, it's explicitly stated that bonding with Jealousy caused Iruma to go crazy. The same is true for Rune as well, as he was helpful and mostly sane until he bonded to Jealousy, at which point he became Yamato's enemy.

Ok, Flourious stays(plus to be fair, a Machiavellian every-man-for-himself view of the world isn't exactly something glorious or admirable anyways from a moral perspective, so you can say I looked at it the wrong way). The other two examples are removed. And oh, Olympius is not Dark Specter's son, that whole theory was from a fanfic so it isn't canon.

There's also one other example here that should be checked for review:

• Doubletone, Monster of the Week from episode "Deal With a Nightlok", is seen as this by Kevin and Mia because he tricked Ryan into giving up baseball by lying that if he did so, his father would return from the army. He seemed to enjoy Ryan's suffering

That's just blackmail/manipulation. And the only particular evil thing he seems to have done.

And can someone check over the two Fallout examples I've checked for review(I've decided that the third example may actually qualify, so I limited it to two examples)?

• The third installment also gives us the Talon Company, which has no apparent redeeming qualities. Every last member is a Psycho for Hire.

This seems to be a large group, and every single one of them is a Always Chaotic Evil Generic Doomsday Villain. However, Fallout series set a high bar for evil so they don't qualify. They're just no different from no other raider in the Wasteland. Plus, they're often Elite Mooks sent by evil characters if you're good enough.

• The Enclave in the first two games were definitely this. First of all, all of those utterly horrific Vault Experiments? They were behind every single one of them. That's right; Vault 11? They did it. Vault 112? They did it. Vault 97? You get the idea. Their first onscreen action in the series is to massacre a whole vault full of innocent men, women and children, just because some of them had a trace of radiation in them. That's right, they are so obsessed with rebuilding a "pure" America that they are willing to commit genocide on not just Ghouls and Mutants, but literally anyone with even the smallest bit of radiation in them. That's over 90% of America's remaining population. They don't care. Among the worst is Fallout 2's Agent Horrigan, who is best described as a "genetically engineered cyborg psycho total homicidal maniac." He always murders someone whenever he appears, the first victims being a group of unarmed peasants.

This shows the group as a whole, which seems to be sizable enough to avoid this trope. Fallout3 and New Vegas shows that not everyone in the Enclave qualifies, with the Big Bad being a AI that runs on Blue And Oranage Morality instead of this trope, and Fallout New Vegas even more so as the Remnants were all sympathetic and can be connected to the Enclave in Fallout2. This entry should be just limited to Horrigan or any Enclave member that qualifies.

edited 28th Jun '12 8:37:18 AM by xie323

I'm going to reread the sequences where Rune bonds with Jealousy today and get back on the subject.

After a reread, I'm withdrawing Rune for consideration as a Complete Monster. I don't agree with Lightflame's reading that Rune was mostly sane and helpful before bonding with Jealousy (more like mostly sane and mildly jealous of a antique-store doll), but he obviously gets much, much worse after bonding with Jealousy, though whether that influence is just bringing out existing bitterness and amplifying it, or making him truly evil, is debatable. And there's not a lot of room for debatable with C Ms, as I understand it, so in with the nuance, out with the nomination. Axe-Crazy Yandere Rape Nut? Yes. Complete Monster? ...eeeh.

Sorry for the delay, Dark Confidant, but now for a review of the Fire Emblem Monster page.

Sadly, I'm only knowledgeable on 7,8, and... 11, I think. (DS Shadow Dragon.)

Elibe: Sonia - I'd say she has the greatest call to be a Complete Monster. Personally, I wouldn't consider her one, but I tend to be very strict in who counts. Killing Nino's parents, and then raising Nino as her own daughter (She actually wanted to kill the child, but Nergal said Nino could be useful later on) is quite bad. It gets worse when she orders Ursula to kill Nino if she failed the mission. And when Nino confronts her later, she laughs and calls her useless. Quite harsh. Plus the other mentioned crimes as well. She is played quite harshly by the standards of the story, everyone around her who realizes her true nature despises her, and she shows no remorse. In her dying moments, when she pathetically claims that she is human, denying that she was just a Morph (Artificial human) is quite satisfying. Some may see it as being played for pity, but considering everything she does to you and the Black Fang, I saw it as Karmic Justice. Despite what I said at the beginning, I'd keep her in.

Ephidel - I'd take him out. Yes, he does kill quite a few people, but that's rather standard villainy compared to Sonia. He kills more to complete the job, not out of any personal satisfaction. The only really heinous thing he does is having Leila's corpse strung up as a warning to your party, and then mock you over it. He's evil, but hardly the Completeness of the Complete Monster.

Lundgren - Like Ephidel, take him out. He's just greedy for the throne. Does quite a few nasty things, but some of those would be rather typical for any treacherous Vizer-type character vying for the throne.

Jerme and Pascal - Not enough is shown about them. You only see Pascal once, and while his background is quite nasty, it's never directly shown, just alluded to. You kill him in the same level you meet him, and he's never mentioned again. Jerme is much the same way, you only learn about him in the level you meet him, and then you kill him. He's only seen once more during the final level. Both could be played as Monsters if they had more buildup or were shown in action more. Jerme especially, talking about how much he'd love to slice up Lyn and fondle the strips of flesh afterwards. But since they're never really shown in action, and are quickly disposed of, I don't think they count.

Desmond - Take him out. One scene shows him in a softer light. He wants to play with his daughter, but his daughter refuses, saying "I want to play with my brother, not you!" Maybe others felt differently, but I actually felt sorry for the poor man after that, even if he did order assassins to kill his son.

Valter - Certainly has the best claim in the game. It does mention that he was already a rather ruthless soldier before grabbing the cursed spear, but afterwards he became absolutely insane. Unlike with Jerme above, you get to see his bloodlust throughout two-thirds of the game. Though, again, the only issue is not a lot is actually shown in-game. He talks a lot, and his constant mention of wanting to savour the hunt against Ephraim and Erikia is very disturbing.

Riev - Doesn't do as much. He does raise the dead, and does worship the demon king, but doesn't really do much of anything directly that's very heinous. Heck, the one crime mentioned he didn't even do. (Standing by while the Dragon Guardian of the shrine was killed.) I'd say remove him.

Can't comment on anyone else, sadly. Wonder if I should post this in the Fire Emblem thread, to get some input.

edited 28th Jun '12 2:42:04 PM by TriggerLoaded

I'm very familiar with the Tellius games (9 and 10) and somewhat with Mystery of the Emblem (3) and the Judgral games (4 and 5).

Izuka, Manfloy, Lang, and Ashnard are the four that I would unequivocally count as Complete Monsters without hesitation.

Lekain is a bit trickier, and very borderline. Although he's crossed the MEH for sure, he hasn't done anything quite as heinous as the five I mentioned above, and could possibly be removed. I'm willing to get rid of him, and I'd also be fine with keeping him. Extremely borderline.

Gharnef is one I don't think I can make a call on. On the one hand, he's the complete epitome of evil, dark wizardry, and he is presented without redeeming features in any capacity. With that said, his kidnapping of the young maidens, as well as corrupting Hardin and leading the world of Akaneia into not one, but two continental-scale wars means that he's definitely as evil as they come, but whether he's done anything quite heinous enough to firmly cement him as CM is... something I'm not prepared to answer.

As for Valter, let's just say that his personality and depravity in game roughly match up with The Joker. I think he's a true CM.

edited 28th Jun '12 2:51:03 PM by DarkConfidant