To-do list:
- The basic definition of this trope is evil that is so horrifying, powerful, incomprehensible, etc that it cannot be clearly shown on-screen, as for when they it is built up so much, anything shown to the audience is a letdown. Remove any examples that confuse it with other villain tropes, such as Big Bad or Greater-Scope Villain.
Original post
Ultimate Evil is a trope that has gone through various kinds of misuse for many reasons. The basic definition of this trope is evil that is so horrifying, powerful, incomprehensible, etc that it cannot be clearly shown on-screen, as for when they it is built up so much, anything shown to the audience is a letdown.However, this trope has been misused in a variety of ways. One particular problem leading to misuse is the trope's name. Although there exists a explanation at the bottom of the page description that this trope is not about being a Big Bad, Greater-Scope Villain, or the like, it still gets misused a ton because of its name. It doesn't describe the trope at all. There has been lots of misuse of a result of not understanding the exact classifications of the trope and that the evil needs to be unseen the entire time.
Here is my wick check (this is my first-ever wick check, so sorry if it's not super good), with usage being organized into various categories:
A. Evil that cannot be clearly shown on-screen because of how horrifying, powerful, incomprehensible, etc it is. It cannot be shown because the audience's expectations has been built up so much that anything shown would be a letdown.
1. Characters.Glitchtale (the bit about them being the Greater-Scope Villain can be cut though)
3. A Wrinkle in Time (third usage)
7. Characters.Inspector Gadget (assuming you don't count crappy action figures...
)
8. Characters.Angel Wolfram And Hart
11. Pineview Drive
B. The evil is shown off-screen for a while, but is eventually shown on-screen. (I left whenever they arguably made up to expectations or not out of this.)
1. Characters.The Legend Of Spyro
2. Characters.Ninjago (second usage)
3. Characters.John Dies At The End
4. Characters.The Suite Life Of Zack And Cody
5. Characters.Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated Antagonists
7. Characters.Over The Garden Wall (yes, the character that literally provides the page image. However, their true form is shown extremely briefly, so I'm not sure if this counts.)
8. Characters.Pony Dot Mov (listed as a subversion)
C. The evil is a Big Bad, Greater-Scope Villain, or the like. This includes evil entities, as well as objects that serve an evil role. (Note that for some of these examples, it was left unclear whenever they were this from the initial wick, so I had to gain additional context by looking though the works.)
1. Characters.Bright (from what I can tell, The Dark Lord is never actually seen in the flesh, but this still seems to be misuse)
2. Characters.Ninjago (first usage)
3. The Darkness
4. A Wrinkle in Time (first usage)
5. Frogger
8. The Elder Scrolls: Daedra (I'm unsure if these "ultimate evils" ever actually come into involvement of the plot or not, but from the way it's used, it seems to be used to describe a Greater-Scope Villain)
10. Wes Craven's New Nightmare
11. Mortal Engines
12. Lone Wolf
13. Supernatural.Tropes E To L
14. Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go!
15. Recap.Samurai Jack S 5 E 10 CI
16. Characters.The Fifth Element (ZCE, but seems to be this)
17. Characters.Violinist Of Hameln
18. Gravity Soul
19. Desperation
20. Axelay
D. Zero-content examples.
E. Mixed usage.
1. Characters.Bone (unseen in the main series besides a pair of glowing "eyes", but he takes the form of a giant locust in the prequel comic Rose to contact Rose in her dreams.)
2. Characters.Code Lyoko (Has no definite shape apparently, but he is represented by a symbol, does take somewhat of a physical form in the real world as a "massive billowing cloud of slimy, black smoke", and apparently makes a physical appearance as a teenage boy in the novels)
F. Uncertain about usage; this includes examples where it could potentially be C but I couldn't find context elsewhere.
1. A Wrinkle in Time (second usage)
The results are:
Category A: 11/50
Category B: 8/50
Category C: 20/50
Category D: 6/50
Category E: 2/50
Category F: 3/50
Confusion about what the trope's name means seems to be a huge problem, with a majority of the wicks coming from that, so the trope definitely needs a rename. Unseen Evil is already a redirect for the trope, and I don't know why it isn't the trope's actual name.
For the definition of the trope itself's idea, here are some ideas:
- Keep the definition how it currently is: evil that is so horrifying, powerful, incomprehensible, etc that it cannot be clearly shown on-screen, as for when they it is built up so much, anything shown to the audience is a letdown
- Expand and alter the definition of the trope; make it so evil that is unseen for a significant amount of time still count, and also make it so that the reason why the evil is not shown onscreen is to make their actions seem more powerful and ominous. This would exclude the part on whenever the audience thinks the evil lives up to their expectations or not when it is seen.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 5th 2022 at 2:13:52 PM
How sweet it is
If a character no longer counts as this if they are seen on-sceen at any point, then you should add a note explaining this to the trope's description.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Very Spooky
So I realized the description contains this paragraph:
I didn’t realize the trope already allowed examples where a villain was offscreen for most of the time, but was eventually shown onscreen. I’m assuming we’re good with no longer allowing examples like this?
Edited by jandn2014 on Jun 29th 2020 at 6:10:39 AM
back lol![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Did we agree to that with a crowner? I forgot.
Very Spooky
We did, but I was wondering if the fact that said aspect existed all along might change people’s opinions.
Hm. Well, opinion on the thread was to expand it, while the crowner did not obtain sufficient consensus to expand it. But it's already on the page, so we don't need to expand it, just not change it. Yes the crowner implies people want the definition more limited, but that's not actually what we voted on.
The best option would be a runoff crowner with more explicit wording for that option... but that might be too much effort.
Very Spooky
I do think it’d be best to have a runoff crowner before we go changing anything else. The reason why I was concerned is that I feel as if people might have voted differently if the question was “Do you want to restrict the current definition more so?” instead of “Do you want to expand the current definition more so?”
back lol
Very Spooky
Bump. I still think the definition thing needs to be discussed.
back lol
Let's go with a runoff crowner.
Very Spooky
Created a runoff crowner; hollering to hook.
Crowner hooked.
Very Spooky
I’d say the crowner can safely be called.
back lol
How sweet it is
Yep, calling in favor of keeping description as is.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
How sweet it is
Clocking to see if there are any takers regarding cleanup.
Edited by Berrenta on Sep 22nd 2020 at 5:28:36 AM
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
How sweet it is
Clock expired; will add to the list of stalled projects and close.
Edited by Berrenta on Sep 26th 2020 at 8:19:47 AM
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Brought back from the Morgue per discussion in the meta thread.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
the Retromancer
Ironically, I've recently started to slowly dewick it per Wick Cleaning Projects since it wasn't touched in the longest time. Is the note I've added to Wick Cleaning Projects fine?
Edited by Amonimus on Sep 5th 2022 at 12:06:21 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Yes, and the same goes for the notes added to Unseen Evil and Positive Discrimination. As a side note, I gave Sequel Difficulty Spike and Sequel Difficulty Drop their own listings instead of lumping them under one entry with Difficulty Spike.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Double posting to mention that I'll probably work on this soon since this shouldn't be hard to take care of, since the fact that the new name begins with the same letter as the old name means that correct examples won't need to be moved much further down in example lists (if at all).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 8th 2022 at 10:07:27 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
why exactly was this brought back?
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Wick cleanup wasn't finished. I attempted a Short-Term cleanup thread, but it went nowhere so I requested this be brought back.
If you'd like to help, there's still 755 wicks.
Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Sep 9th 2022 at 2:19:56 PM
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
How sweet it is
Less than 700 to go.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
(she/her)
Under 500 now. I'll work on some wicks today.
Macron's notes
Crown Description:
The former page action crowner voted to not expand the trope's definition to include examples where an antagonistic force is obscured or off-screen for the most part, but is eventually shown clearly on-screen. However, it turns out that the trope's definition allowed examples like that in the first place, if you read its description. With how this aspect has always been present, do you want to keep the definition how it currently is, or add the restriction?
Unseen Evil it is; calling.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report