I've decided to start a cleanup thread for Narm, since it seems to attract a lot of misuse and complaining. Like I said in my ATT post
, "some misuse is easy to catch (e.g. saying a joke is Narm when Narm by definition can't be a joke), a lot of examples fall into grey areas that seem like misuse but it's hard to tell. Like nitpicks that at first glance seem to be valid examples, but feel like stretches the more you think about them."
I think one of the main reasons for misuse is that most people aren't clear on what Narm actually is. To my understanding, it's when a scene is intended to be dramatic, but comes off as cheesy/funny unintentionally. But going by the page description, it's kind of vague what actually qualifies something as Narm. At the top, it says "Narm is a moment that is supposed to be serious, but due to either over-sappiness, poor execution, excessive Melodrama, or the sheer absurdity of the situation, the drama is lost to the point of surpassing "cheesy" and becoming unintentionally funny." But then later on in the same page, it gives a much more vague definition:
Most often, Narm is misused to mean "anything I personally don't think worked," whether or not it was intended as dramatic or comes off as funny. And when a work is high-profile enough, hoo boy, pretty much every scene is Narm to somebody. You can look at the Narm subpages for Doctor Who, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones and find tons of examples of people nitpicking the tiniest of details in a scene and blowing whatever it is out of proportion.
Another problem is that since it's such a subjective trope, it's not clear if there's supposed to be any sort of in-fandom consensus on the example in-question, or if every example is valid under the "it's called YMMV for a reason" excuse, even if the only person who thinks the example is Narm is the troper who adds it in.
I think it needs to be clearer whether nitpicks are valid examples of Narm, especially since nitpicking overlaps so often with barely-disguised complaining. The most frequent offenders for Narm entries I see are complaining, nitpicking, adding jokes, and ZeroContextExamples. I'm going to use Venom (2018) as an example, with my comments in bold:
- The scene of Eddie freaking out on the medical table is presented as the teaser's Money-Making Shot. It... doesn't quite work as intended, which isn't helped by it being sped up, making it look like a parody.
- The final trailer features a more complete version of the clip showing Venom's face "shutter" over Eddie. Whether or not this works or if it looks like a cheap special effect depends on who you ask.
- What makes the freakout even more narmful is that Eddie's screams are different screams playing on top of each other. The actual film lacks this strange effect. This example seems fine to me, but falls into the "The trailer is Narmy but the finished product isn't" doublespeak.
- The leaked trailer revealed some pretty terrible lines (“The guy you work for is an evil person.”). Tom Hardy's horrible New York...ish(?) accent isn't doing the delivery any favors either. And it really does not help that his voice cracks on the reading of "evil person". Thankfully, that line is not in the film proper. Do we keep examples that are purely in the trailers? Also an example of "thing falls flat" instead of "thing is funny."
- Hardy's line reading of "You're not real, you are just in my head." sounds like he's suffering from Elmuh Fudd Syndwome. At worst, he sounds like Adam Sandler's signature Manchild babbling. However there's some speculation that, based on the context of the scene and Eddie's stumbling movements, he's actually drunk, or perhaps even overdosed on medication (considering he was seen taking a bunch of pills, thinking he's sick). That and it could be a case of Reality Ensues, as it's unlikely anyone would keep the mental clarity to speak normally as an alien parasite is slowly bonding with their body. Natter. Goes back and forth between snarky complaints and defending the moment. Also nitpicking.
- Movie trailers cutting quotes out of context to form a new sentence is nothing new, but the editing on the line "you will only hurt bad people" is particularly poor, and it's very easy to hear that the line has been cut together out of separate pieces of dialogue. Not really a dramatic thing, so I don't think it counts as Narm. And it definitely isn't funny, it just falls flat.
- How Jenny Slate's character pronounces "symbiote" note . Plus, her giving firm, equal stress to all three syllables like she's speaking some foreign language. Luckily, this was cut from the theatrical release. Nitpicking and not funny.
- The shot of Eddie crashing straight through a half-fallen tree in the forest that he could just as easily have ducked under comes across as more comedic than cool, as if they just needed an additional gratuitous shot of something breaking. Especially if your mind goes to Victor from Wet Hot American Summer and his inexplicable refusal to jump over anything. It really does not help that the evil bad-guy vehicle chasing him looks like a slightly modified golf cart. The context for this one in the movie is that Venom is taking control of his body and forcing him to blindly flee through the woods to escape the Life Foundation. Context makes it not-Narm. Cut?
- Although it may look better in the context of the full scene, Eddie flying 50 feet into the air on his motorcycle off a slightly steep hill seems to rather severely break the laws of physics. Clearly written before the movie came out. Cut?
- The Jump Scare (on both sides of the fourth wall) where Venom suddenly shouts Eddie's name as he brushed his teeth would have been much more scary if not for the fact that the latter Screams Like a Little Girl. There's also the fact that he somehow throws himself backwards so hard that he crashes into the bathroom wall. Intended as comedic, so it isn't Narm.
- Remember how creepy and awesome that shot from the second trailer of the symbiote forming around Eddie's face in order to eat a guy was? In the third trailer, the potential Nightmare Fuel of that moment is significantly undercut by Venom slobbering all over the man's face with its tongue in an amusingly over-the-top manner. One is reminded of the scene with Patrick licking the yellow popsicle, or perhaps "This is the taste of a liar".... This seems pretty in-character for Venom. I'm not sure with this one.
- The guy who Carlton Drake subjects to Orifice Invasion in the third trailer would have been disturbing, if not for the victim's bland expression. Moment that falls flat; not funny. Cut.
- The symbiote's Venom-face forming on the end of Eddie's arm to talk to him strongly resembles a deranged hand puppet rather than a vicious alien parasite. There's also the fact that they can communicate telepathically, making that sequence unnecessary. Seems fine.
- Venom's violent threats to his enemies are this if they're not aggressively tasteless Black Comedy. His threat to mutilate a man until he's "like a turd on the wind" is particularly groan-inducing, especially coming after a genuinely frightening threat. How It Should Have Ended was even driven by this to make a video on just the trailer for the very first time, in which he mangles a bunch of other sayings. Pretty sure they are intended as comedy, so it's not Narm. Cut.
- The animation of the yellow symbiote just looks like mozzarella cheese come to life. Nitpick. Also... inaccurate? It's more of a mucus yellow.
- After Venom heals Eddie's broken legs, he flatly states "My legs! They were broken... and now they're not broken..."
- "My leg!" Seems fine to me.
- "HOSPITAL!!!! (extremely long pause) Now!" Zero-Context Example.
- Eddie and Anne quite casually discussing cannibalism as one of the symbiote's favorite activities. It's something that would probably sincerely shock and disgust the average person and likely require therapy, and yet it's bandied about like it's a pretty normal occurrence. These kinds of entries are tricky to me. They seem valid at first glance, but there's something off about them. I don't think this one counts if the work itself is treating the moment lightly.
- Any menace from Cletus Kasady is completely undercut by Woody Harrelson's truly ridiculous wig. A common comparison is that it causes him to look like a live-action Sideshow Bob, or a make-up-less Pennywise. Uses complainy word-choice. Otherwise fine.
- Kasady promising that there will be "carnage" after he gets out is so on-the-nose that it feels like it's straight out of a parody. First off, that's not an example of Anvilicious. Secondly, this verges on a nitpick to me. I'm not sure. It's not really funny, just lame.
- The final trade of words between Venom and Riot before the final battle is nothing but total Ham-to-Ham Combat - that and the two symbiotes happen to be Perpetual Smilers, which just gives off the feeling that they don't really give that much of a damn about their goals.
- Towards the end of the film, it's revealed that Venom used to be something of a loser on his home planet, like Eddie. This is his entire reason for wanting to save the Earth. Moment played as a joke, so it isn't Narm.
- Despite angrily forcing Eddie to spit out cooked meats because they're no longer living animals, the symbiote develops a taste for tater tots, and it practically demands that Eddie buy some during a conversation in the ending. The director admitted in an interview that the writers just thought it was funny and put it in the script. It unfortunately invites comparisons to a similar tots-focused scene in Napoleon Dynamite as a result. Entry admits it's a joke. So it isn't Narm.
- Drake having bonded with Riot is treated as a huge shocking twist going into the final battle... except for the fact that the audience was already well aware of it and saw the whole process. It feels very much like a consequence of Executive Meddling to give Riot more screentime. Another tricky example. Seems to fall under "scene doesn't work" instead of "scene is funny."
- Right after Eddie is separated from the symbiote, a rather obvious ADR overdub replaces the intended "fuck you" with the much less vicious "we're done". Not really funny, just falls flat.
- Eddie's "DRAKE! STOP!" sounds less like he's in pain and more like a little kid telling his Big Brother Bully to stop giving him a wedgie. Nitpicking. Most people wouldn't even pay this sequence any mind.
Another issue with Narm is the distinction between moments that are unintentionally funny on their own, and moments that are only unintentionally funny after Memetic Mutation or similar feat. Does the latter truly count as Narm? Because you can make the case that everything that has ever been made can fall under that.
Edited by MisterApes-a-lot on Mar 31st 2019 at 7:06:31 AM
Hi everyone, new troper here and this my first post on this discussion.
I think the face Helmut makes when cornered by the bird in A Bug's Life needs to be narm, because seriously, his face and scream really ruins seriousness of this scene.
Edited by Filip04 on Mar 15th 2024 at 5:10:46 PM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You need to describe it in more detail. Describe it so that someone who had never seen the movie before would understand the full context.
You have to make the writeup. You can't expect other people to do it for you.
You didn't read my post? I asked if everyone else thinks of this scene as a narm, not me only. In this cases, I want to make sure of other people's opinions before I start writing something.
You have to make a writeup so that we can judge whether it's worth adding.
To be clear, you don't have to put your writeups through this thread. You're free to just add it. You can just use this thread if you're not sure about the entry and want a second opinion.
Edited by MurlocAggroB on Mar 15th 2024 at 11:09:21 AM
Im not really sure that would count as Narm because there is a lot of humor in that scene but its clearly intentional.
Like Helmut is probably the biggest comic relief character in a movie that already has plenty of comedy.
I always saw this scene as serious given the main characters are in danger of being eaten and bird is Played for Horror, so I only saw few scenes as being funny to me.
I agree that the majority of the bird attack sequence is meant to be tense, but this moment in particular is an exception. The full scene shows the male ant extolling the caterpillar's bravery, but then it cuts to this ridiculously over the top scream. It's irony-based comedy that gets enhanced by a Wild Take, so it unfortunately is not a valid example of Narm.
Biggest ZeroLenny Stan
Who is "Helmut?" Do you mean Heimlich the caterpillar?
It's not about the gold; it's about the glory.
In Poland, his name is Helmut. And probably in other countries as well, since ArthurEld probably isn't Pole.
On Fan Works, we have this: Ashes of the Past is usually good with having its insanely over-the-top events taken seriously by the readers, but one line, said by Ash during his Gym battle with Pryce, really stands out and can result in unintentional laughter, especially if you read Ash's dialogue in Sarah Natochenny's voice:
- Ash: Heracross! Your arms are machine guns!
However, on the Ashes of the Past page, the aforementioned example was first commented out for being a ZCE and then deleted with the edit summary of "After asking for context, turns out It Makes Sense in Context and besides it's not in a serious moment anyways. Ergo, not Narm."
Hi!
Bringing this up from the YMMV page for The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!.
- Narm: The infamous "If You Do Drugs" PSA. While the message about the dangers of drugs is there and his heart was in the right place, seeing Captain Lou in his Mario hat say the word "Hell" is jarring, if not absolutely hilarious for someone representing the squeaky clean Nintendo mascot. Additionally, the oddly placed "please" to end the ad has been universally mocked.
Any other opinions on this?
Edited by DongwaChan on Mar 26th 2024 at 3:35:03 PM
I would absolutely keep that. A wrestler in a Mario hat delivering an over-the-top but still dead serious drug PSA is hilarious. You can probably cut the last sentence though, since I've never heard anyone bring up the "please" part.
- Narm:
- Chris being portrayed throughout the movie as motivated by keeping others alive suddenly decides to take a time-out from this duty to make a phone call when his comrades need him the most.
- The Butcher is so cartoonishly evil that he just gets hard to take seriously after a while. And he was made up for the film, so there's not even that justification.
- Some of Sienna Miller's dialogue sounds a little too Oscar-hungry. One line even rhymes:
Taya Renae Kyle: If you think that this war isn't changing you, you're wrong. You can only circle the flames so long.
- The infamous fake baby can fill an entire theater with laughter.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Definitely keep the baby. I haven't even seen the movie, but I know everyone made fun of how fake the baby was and it turned the whole scene comical. It probably needs to be expanded, but it can stay.
I don't much else about the movie about whether the other moments should stay or not.
The first example just sounds like a nitpick. It doesn't come off as unintentionally funny.
The man with no name
The baby is the only one I’ve heard regularly mock. Not so sure about the other ones though.
For a guy nicknamed Blondie, he is not the tiniest bit blond!
I think hide the baby example, if it's true that so many people found it funny, but it's too low on context.
First bullet is a non-funny nitpick, second is too general, third just reads as a non-funny nitpick.
That Sienna Miller line is certainly hilariously terrible.
Angry babby
The first might work depending on how the situation is framed. I think the second could work with more context on what makes him hilarious. The third might work if only because of the accidental rhyme, but I'm on the fence about it because "Oscar-hungry" sounds like pure complaining.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
I already went and removed most of the examples sans the baby one everyone agreed was a valid example.
Discord: Waido X 255#1372 If you cant contact me on TV Tropes do it here.
Angry babby
I don't know if we had consensus to remove the others yet, but if nothing else they could use a rewrite.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
low-poly Shinri
YMMV.Unicorn Overlord has these badboys:
- Narm:
- When units are stunned or low on health, they'll enter a stance that shows them being in pain, such as infantry units leaning against their weapons like crutches. It works most of the time... but a few units look laughably ridiculous in this state. Dark Knights lean their heads unnaturally far back, looking more like they're passed out drunk while still sitting on horseback. Feathershields are still flying in this state despite their heads leaning as well. seems valid but I could be wronh
- The title itself. In pre-release especially, many people scoffed at two words so thematically opposed - unicorns, mythical creatures often associated with childish femininity in the west, and overlords, a term that sounds imposing, powerful, and often has villainous or otherwise nefarious connotations, being tied together. Many assumed it was another strange Word Salad Title ala Octopath Traveler or Triangle Strategy, though in universe it does eventually make sense... in a moment that itself is potentially very narmful. unsure
If people don't complain about it, is it even a Broken Base? If anything it looks like it could maybe work as Broken Aesop, though. I think it could still be Narm if it could be reasonably misconstrued as funny due to the rest of the show setting up those expectations.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.