During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Kariya
Yeah to Kariya.
Wow, don't know how I forgot all about this guy: yes there.
Caesar
Oh, and apologies for missing it at first thanks to the Harmonica debate, but 'Yes' to Nick
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The Draftsman of Doom
Kariya, whose name sounds suspiciously similar to a candidate I just EP'd in the other thread.
The wifi here sucks
Kariya. We've had a few of this type of candidate go up this year, not long term schemers like most characters who go up, but cool, clever villains who get by with quick thinking and badass cred.
Edited by papyru30 on Mar 25th 2020 at 3:08:23 AM
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
to Kariya
Kagetoki Kariya.
to Kariya.
Abstain on Harmonica
Yes to Kariya.
Yes to Nick, and Kariya, but abstain on Harmonica.
Edelgard was a teen for the first half of the game until the timeskip. But yes, I would like everything cleared up as much as anyone else.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Nick and Kariya. Abstain on Harmonica.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Nick and Kariya
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Harmonica
"Edelgard was a teen..."? Klavice, was someone implying otherwise?
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
What's the work?
Somebody's Gotta Die is a 1997 song by The Notorious B.I.G. from his second and final album Life After Death, released in March 25, 1997. The album, while not considered as good as Biggie's debut Ready to Die, is still nonetheless seen as a worthy sequel and a hip-hop classic of it's own right. It was insanely successful, being Grammy-nominated, going Diamond in 2000 and becoming the 3rd best-selling rap album of all time.
Sadly, Biggie (who finished the album in his lifetime, thus making it more of a posthumous release than a posthumous album) wasn't there to enjoy his album's success, as he was assassinated on March 9, 1997, two weeks before Life After Death's release.
That being said, Somebody's Gotta Die, seen as a strong storytelling song (unsurprising coming from the rapper who did Juicy and Warning), is the first song recorded for the album and deals with Biggie trying to get revenge for his friend's death. Sadly things... Didn't turn as well as expected.
Nonetheless, Biggie was extremely skilled.
Who's The Notorious B.I.G.? What has he done?
The song begins with Biggie "sittin' in the crib dreamin' about Lear jets and coupes; The way Salt shoops and how to sell records like Snoop". Nothing special so far.
Cue the doorbell ringing.
It's Biggie's friend Sing, who looks bloody and holding a gun. Sing explains to Biggie that their mutual friend C-Rock was shot at the Beacon Theater.
"Retaliation for this one won't be minimal"
Planning already an alibi, putting silencers on the uzi, and preparing himself, Biggie starts plotting his revenge.
However, he asks beforehand Sing to explains the situation so they know who they're going against. Sing promptly explains that around the time both Biggie and Sing were in jail, C-Rock met someone named Jason who was bragging about how much drugs and money he gained. C-Rock (who had plenty of connections) and Jason then formed a team that eventually achieved success in drug dealing. However, later on, C-Rock set up Jason, who was robbed, shot and to top it off, Jason's wife and kids were targeted as well, the latter being pistol-whipped and the former being taped up. Jason quickly deduced that C-Rock did it and shot him 50 times. Biggie sympathizes with Jason and implicitly acknowledged that in his place, he'd have reacted similarly, and that C-Rock wasn't all innocent in that stuff. But nonetheless, Jason killed a dear friend of his, so he must die in retaliation. Biggie promptly asks Sing what were the weapons Jason's crew uses and then, aware that the place where Jason's crew is a place where no one has weapons, plans to attack Jason there. Biggie and Sing then set out to kill Jason.
Once arrived, Sing expresses lack of patience, saying "fuck all that plannin' shit" and saying that they should just kill them all in their own crib to be done with it. Biggie promptly admonishes him, explaining that that reckless way would only lead to missing the target and killing innocents. Biggie makes one thing clear : Jason is the only one who's going to die. No one else. Biggie recognizes Jason and put on a mask, before yelling to Jason "Ay yo, playboy", before shooting him 6 times.
But then?
"Nigga turned around holdin' his daughter"
It's implied that Jason's daughter was sadly shot as well, with Biggie expressing shock and muttering "I think I shot the baby". The song ends with Jason's daughter cries dying down while it's raining.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
Yes to both. Biggie has shades of his Lovable Sex Maniac persona, but he also proves to be be both loyal and intelligent. He shows already how cautious he is when Sing knocks on his door, taking his gun just in case. He is Crazy-Prepared, already planning an alibi and planning to claim he had sex when the whole thing happened. He also asks Sing to give him detailed information about Jason and his crew, going as far as to ask what are the guns they use. He then plans to strike when they are defenseless, kill Jason and get out of here. Fast enough so that Biggie's friend Puff Daddy doesn't even notices what happened. He also put on a mask just in case he's recognized. Barring Jason's daughter being possibly shot, there's no indication that Jason himself survived the hit.
Thinking on his feet?
To be fair, not much here. That being said, it's because that, barring Jason's daughter, Biggie's plan was successful without a hitch.
What about the competition?
Jason and his crew didn't saw anything coming. They were attacked at their most defenseless. Pass.
Is he a bastard? Too much of a bastard?
Strangely, what makes him a bastard and not too much of a bastard... Are the same reasons. As in he's aware that Jason had every right to strike back at C-Rock, but still wants him dead (it's not even Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse : Biggie implies that he would have reacted similarly in Jason's place. The only issue is that the guy Jason killed happened to be C-Rock, Biggie's friend). But on another hand, that point showcases his loyalty to his late friend and his ability to sympathizes with his target as well. To top it off, he doesn't want to hurt any other innocent and shows clear shock over hitting Jason's daughter.
Verdict ?
I'll leave him to you guys.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 25th 2020 at 5:47:37 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
to Biggie
Yeah to Biggie... Luka this your first time posting here? Welcome!
Goku Black
biggie
So I've been reading Catwoman: Soulstealer in preparation for an ep on that version of selina kyle and was curious is their any reason her original comic book version doesn't count ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I... do not read enough OG comics to answer that one ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
to Biggie
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Late yes to Kariya. Is Samurai Champloo any good? Got to admit that I've only heard about it because of it's Nujabes-produced OST.
@43110, I've noticed that you stated on the pending write-ups that Somebody's Gotta Die is from Ready to Die, while it's actually from Life After Death. Nothing really bad, just wanted to point it out because, well...
I have an actual candidate from Ready to Die.
What's the work?
Everyday Struggle is a 1994 song by The Notorious B.I.G. from his debut album Ready to Die, released in late 1994. I've heard it's Biggie's favorite song from his album, but I'll need to dig a bit more to find out. Going 6 times Platinum, Ready to Die, alongside the likes of Enter the Wu-Tang : 36 Chambers, Illmatic, The Infamous and Project Funk da World helped resurrect the East Coast rap scene, after it was overtaken by West Coast acts such as N.W.A, Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre and 2Pac.
That being said, the song deals with the difficult life of a drug dealer, clearly inspired by Biggie's own experience as a drug dealer, much like plenty of Biggie's music.
As the whole song is centered around the street life, filled with drug dealing, murdering and conspiracy, Biggie Smalls says in the hook that he’s tired and doesn’t want to live this kind of life anymore.
Nonetheless, he does his damn best to make it through so that he can feed his daughter.
It could've been the most Tear Jerker song of the album if Suicidal Thoughts wasn't a thing.
Who's The Notorious B.I.G.? What has he done?
Faced by a rather difficult situation (he has plenty of bills to pay, and he has a baby on the way), Biggie drops out of school and becomes a full-time drug dealer to provide for his daughter. This leads to his mother being forced to kick him out. Now on the streets, Biggie decides to move to "20s down South", where he knows that he can be more successful as a drug dealer. He then asked someone else for consignment, but said person refused. Upon learning that he's supposed to go to court due to an assault case in Bridgeport, Biggie decides to move to Maryland alongside his Ax-Crazy friend named Two-TECs to make greater profit there. He then takes the Amtrak railroad service with a woman he gave two pounds of hash, aware that she won't be searched as severely as a man. He promptly waited for her to make money with the supplies, promising her that she's going to be promoted to "lieutenant". The operation is a success and Biggie can relax with the profits. He then replenishes his drug supplies and checks on his friends. However, things starts to go avry there. Biggie's friends inform him of rumors claiming he died. Then he got a phone call, who told him their clique was infiltrated, and that Two-TECs was murdered by someone called Alberta for a petty reason.
Aware that their clique is at risk, Biggie bounces back from these issues by having his female collaborator take the fall for "conspiracy", meaning that she gets three years in prison. In the meanwhile, when she tells him she won't snitch, he promises her to make her rich once she gets out of jail, while also providing for her family while she's imprisoned.
Criticizing Rudy Giuliani for allowing police brutality on young blacks, Biggie raises his now 1-year old daughter T'yanna Wallace, hoping to both make her steet smart and all-around smart.
However, while continuing his drug operations, seeing addicts race to get their doses each day isn't a happy sight, so Biggie copes with it by getting high on his own supply. Even though he's aware that law enforcement knows his name, Biggie ends the song by stating that he has to continue his drug dealing operations, with no indications that he got any comeuppance for his doings.
Is he charming? Intelligent?
With all the hardships Biggie goes through on the track (I mean, it's called Everyday Struggle for a reason), it's easy to end up rooting for him there. He also proves to be a good boss, as seen with his female collaborator or even when he checks on his friends after a successful drug dealing operation.
He also doesn't hesitate to move to other places where he can get a higher profit, gives his supply to his female collaborator because she's less likely to be searched while promising her she'll become lieutenant and later on rewarding her loyalty to him.
Thinking on his feet?
Yes as well, as seen as when their crew was infiltrated : "Aware that their clique is at risk, Biggie bounces back from these issues by having his female collaborator take the fall for "conspiracy", meaning that she gets three years in prison. In the meanwhile, when she tells him she won't snitch, he promises her to make her rich once she gets out of jail, while also providing for her family while she's imprisoned."
He also broke two of his future 10 cracks commandments (that he would later create in Life After Death), as he asked for consignment and got high on his own supply. But he bounced back from the former by becoming a successful drug dealer of his own, and he's still alive for the latter issue, still continuing with his operations, with no indication he's ending up like Tony Montana any time soon.
What about the competition?
Law enforcement is a pretty big issue, as seen with the infiltrator and the fact that they know Biggie's first name. Nonetheless, Biggie manages to evade them.
Is he a bastard?
Drug dealer who associated with an Ax-Crazy guy, and who had his female collaborator take the fall for conspiracy.
Too much of a bastard?
Checks on his friends, cares about them, takes care of his female collaborator and her family and started his drug dealing operations to feed his daughter and pay his bills.
Any other mitigating factors?
He refers to his female collaborator (implied to be Lil' Kim) as a "bitch" several times and as a "hooker" once. That could've been mitigating if he didn't treat her so well. While he let her take the fall, leading her to prison for 3 years... He promises her tons of money once she gets out (with no indication he's going to renege on his promise), and even provides for her family while she's imprisoned despite already going through tons of trouble in order to feed his daughter. All of this to reward her loyalty to him. Pet the Dog in it's finest.
Verdict ?
I'll leave him up to you guys.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 26th 2020 at 4:50:50 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Absolute yes to Kariya
Yeah Kira gets a pass simply because 1. the only remotely sexual thing he does with the hands is he at one point licks food off of one, so that's something, and 2. in a world of serial child rapists and women torturers, Kira insta-killing women and then taking their hands on "dates" is supremely tame for the series, and his brilliance and entertaining Xanatos Speed Chess takes precedence over everything else anyway.
Now then, to follow up on myself and 43's successful Bebop duo, it got me to thinking about the Spiritual Successor series (of sorts), and I think it may just give us a candidate as well.
What's the work?
Samurai Champloo is another series directed and created by Shinichiro Watanabe of Cowboy Bebop fame. Following much the same kind of setup as Bebop—an episodic series following a group of characters with a heavy leaning on the music and stylized animation—we pick up with a main trio of the arrogant, sleazy fighter Mugen, the honorable, emotionless Jin, and the excitable, naive teenage girl Fuu, and their adventures across the Edo era of Japan on their journey to locate the infamous Samurai who Smells of Sunflowers for their own purposes.
Along the way, our heroes are confronted by a variety of criminals, assassins and stooges of the reigning rule, the shogunate, and as the series nears its end, the shogunate is forced to approach their most powerful agent to carry out their will....
Who is Kariya? What makes him a candidate?
The legendary "Hand of God" Kagetoki Kariya is a master swordsman, one of the most feared and respected across all of Japan.
Spending his free time tending to his immaculate garden and using it as object lessons for life, Kariya soon enough realized that the world was changing, and for all his skill with a sword, it wasn't going to mean much in the growing reign of the shogunate and politics. As a result, Kariya allied himself with the shogunate, becoming their agent while pretending to merely be their puppet, when in reality, Kariya is using them to build his own power base and move along in a fastly changing world.
At one point, Kariya took the training school of Mariya under his control, turning it into a school of assassins and warriors for the shogunate. When one of the students, Jin, expressed frustration and rejection of the shogunate's rule over the school to his teacher Mariya, Kariya ordered Mariya to eliminate Jin, though this failed when Jin proved stronger than his teacher and escaped.
Many years later, Kariya is approached by members of the shogunate, informing him that a group of targets they have been trying to eliminate—Mugen, Fuu, and Jin himself—have consistently avoided any and all assassins, and their quest to find the legendary Samurai who Smells of Sunflowers, Seizo Kasumi (who himself is an enemy of the shogunate) is nearing completion. Kariya, quickly realizing the skill of their targets given their defeat of the likes of Sara, proclaims that he'll handle the situation, happily remarking that he hasn't had an opponent worth drawing his sword for in years, and this will be ample opportunity to do so.
Quickly tracking Mugen, Fuu, and Jin, Kariya approaches Fuu but lets her pass, planning to let her find Kasumi for him, while he personally takes on Mugen and Jin. Confronting the two, Kariya easily takes on Mugen, analyzing and pointing out his erratic, instinctual fighting style, giving him pointers on how to improve it, and dismantling him time and time again without breaking a sweat.
Fighting Jin next—taking note of his skills being superior to Mugen's, and using a nearby sea to kick up water with his sword slashes and throw Jin off balance—Kariya takes a pause from the fight when Mugen is accosted by a criminal, who brags that himself and his brothers have captured Fuu. Kariya calmly tells Jin and Mugen to decide between themselves which of them is going to go save Fuu, while the other will have to face him, and ultimately, Jin is the one who stays to duel Kariya while Mugen goes to save Fuu.
Complimenting Jin during their duel while revealing his hand in trying to have Jin assassinated, Kariya states that the world is moving on from true swordsmen like himself and Jin, and remarks that they were both born in the wrong era. Jin calls Kariya out that the shogunate is not a worthy master, and that indeed the world these days has very few masters worth serving, to which Kariya replies he in fact is the one using the shogunate to advance his own agendas, agreeing that there are no worthy lords or masters in this time.
As both Jin and Kariya strike their final blows, Kariya comes out successful, seemingly killing Jin, who falls into the sea....Now tracking down Fuu once she's been rescued by Mugen, Kariya's plan works, as he follows her to the shack of Seizo Kasumi and confronts the sickly, dying man, who is revealed to be Fuu's father. Kariya gives the man a few moments to have his last words with Fuu, before striking him down quickly and cleanly. Then revealing he's also been tasked to eliminate all of Kasumi's family members and retainers, Kariya slowly makes his way for a fleeing Fuu and notably, despite his orders, merely wounds the elderly caretaker of Kasumi without serious injury.
As Fuu runs out space to run at the edge of a scenic cliff, Kariya corners her, remarking the beauty of the place that she's about to die at, and offering her the chance to honorably use a sword to end her own life... fortunately, at just this moment, a wounded Jin arrives on the scene, revealing he survived his seeming death.
Applauding Jin's skill and determination in surviving such a near-death experience, Kariya nonetheless expresses surprise that Jin would challenge him once again for the sake of Fuu, throwing Jin's own words that there's no worthy lords or masters worth taking up a sword for these days. Jin, however, proclaims that he has realized his desire to protect Fuu and that she is worthy of his sword, and he challenges Kariya once more.
In their final duel, Kariya has the upper hand the entire time, until he is able to stab Jin successfully.... unfortunately for Kariya, Jin realized he couldn't win through any other way than to leave himself open, at which point he is able to stab Kariya himself. A shocked Kariya can only mutter "I can't believe you opened yourself to my attack..." before dropping dead, allowing a barely-alive Jin and Fuu to locate Mugen and work on healing all their brutalized bodies.
Is Kariya magnificent in how he operates?
Kariya's a wise old mofo. He uses flowers to compare to life, compliments opponents while dissecting their fighting styles, and he's not too shabby in cunning either, utilizing the sea in his fight with Jin, ordering Mariya to eliminate one of his students when Kariya realized said students' dangerous potential coupled with rebellious attitude, and letting Fuu lead him straight to Kasumi.
Kariya puts up the appearance of just being a humble servant to the shogunate, but reveals to Jin that he knows exactly what he's doing with the shogunate, and is deliberately using them to further his own agendas and goals under the guise of a more civilized guise.
The only time he isn't in complete control—his death—does lead to him using his dying words to express shock that Jin let himself be stabbed just to kill his opponent, but ehhhh can't really hold this against him when he's been such a good sport otherwise, he's just completely taken aback at Jin's willingness to perform a Mutual Kill, not actually shocked that he's been beaten.
Is Kariya a bastard?
Not the worst, especially for the series, but Kariya's nonetheless a remorseless, at times gleeful killer of those who put up a good fight, and he coldly ordered Mariya to kill one of his own students, and heartlessly kills Fuu's father Kasumi in front of her before trying to murder her as well.
Ultimately though, Kariya's just got a couple murders on his hands, and considering he's got immense honor, respect for foes, offers his opponents respectful deaths, and even spares Kasumi's caretaker despite mentioning that his orders called for the deaths of everyone tied to him.
Final Verdict?
Not as instantly impressive as the Bebop baddies, but Kariya's a solid badass with charm and wisdom abounding.
Edited by Ravok on Mar 25th 2020 at 12:55:33 PM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!