During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Loboto
@jjjj2 Doesn't L have an entry?
Edited by TrueChaos on Dec 19th 2021 at 4:35:13 AM
I hadn't thought of him, but I guess he does technically count. Riley, STAR what say you to maybe modifying his existing entry on the page?
Loboto.
Lies and Violence!
Loboto.
Terminator: Dark Fate is the latest movie in the Terminator franchise — and, canonically, only the third, because apparently the best way to deal with previous bad movies is to just ignore them. Sure, that works.
I personally don't give a shit about this series, but I like Gabriel Luna, so...
Not-Ghost Rider
An advanced Terminator created by the A.I. Legion (yeah, no, I'm not respecting that, it's just Skynet), the Rev-9 is a robotic endoskeleton covered in liquid-metal "skin" — a weird composite of the previous Terminators — sent back in time to kill the future leader of the human resistance, John Connor I mean Dani something-I-couldn't-be-bothered-to-remember.
The Rev-9 arrives at Dani's apartment just seconds after she leaves, creating cloths for itself and pleasantly greeting her father before killing him and taking his appearance. It proceeds to go to the factory where she works and attempt to shoot her, only stopped by the timely intervention of a shotgun-wielding Kyle Reese I mean Grace, a cyborg from the future. A chase scene ensues, with the Rev-9 driving a truck and plowing through pretty much everything in his way. Although they manage to crash the truck the Rev-9 just splits itself in two, launching its outer shell at Grace mid-crash and taking out their car's wheels. The two halves corner Grace and Dani, but are blasted away by Sarah Connor.
The Rev-9 hacks into some security cameras to relocate its targets, proceeding to infiltrate the border patrol so it can have them arrested... and then have a drone suicide-bomb them, because there's no kill like overkill. Nevertheless, they survive and are brought to a detention facility. The Rev-9 gets inside (claiming he has a metal hip from service in Afghanistan when he goes through a metal detector) and begins massacring guards as it chases Dani, literally just walking through them as they try to dogpile him.
In the aftermath of the chaos the Rev-9 gets his hands on a helicopter, attempting to just gun them down when it catches up again. It once again crashes, but uses the momentum to fling itself onto the plane the targets are currently on. It's knocked off after a brief scuffle, but somehow hijacks another plane and crashes into them. It attempts to convince the others into just handing over Dani before going on the attack, splitting in two to take on Grace and the good Terminator Carl at once. After a brutal fight they manage to destroy the metal skin by dragging it into a turbine, while Carl kills the damaged endoskeleton using Grace's power source.
Any Mitigating Factors?
None that I can think of. The Rev-9 is just as much of a Determinator as its predecessors, but manages to be oddly personable at the same time. It's just as likely to have a pleasant conversation with you as it is to murder you — granted, it'll still probably murder you after, but it's considerably more human than you'd expect. None of this detracts from how much of a brutal fighter it is, as it makes good use out of its ability to split in two and requires the sacrifices of two cyborgs from the future to finally put it down.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oh damn. Beat me to it. Hell yes to Rev-9 though.
May I do the writeup please?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 19th 2021 at 2:25:53 AM
Goku Black
Loboto and Rev
Lies and Violence!
Screw it, sure. I always have trouble summarizing these things anyway.
Rev-9.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Loboto and Rev-9.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
@Emerald Thanks. Appreciate it. You sounded like you barely wanted to remember certain things about the movie anyway. Haha.
I got grammatical/factual corrections to make on a bunch of my entries. For now, just the Terminator ones I did since I accidentally put Conner instead of CONNOR and more than once too.
Bold marks the corrections (UPDATED TREE TOO):
- Terminator series: Whether good or bad, these smart cyborgs of the future are exceptional in their intricate planning and execution:
- The Terminator: The Terminator himself—first Cyberdyne model T-101—is a cyborg from the dystopian future of Los Angeles 2035 sent by evil supercomputer Skynet to kill waitress Sarah CONNOR because her son John will eventually be the leader of the human resistance. Taking out a gun shop owner and targeting women with the exact same name while trying to find her, the Terminator racks up a high body count, particularly when he shoots up the police station to get to Sarah there and multiple occasions is only stopped when Kyle Reese intervenes. Learning human behavior over time and tricking Sarah over the phone into thinking she's talking to her mother, the Terminator is able to learn the latest location Reese and Sarah are hiding at to once again track them down and even continues to determinedly do so both when his human exterior is burned off and his legs are disabled as well. Fully proving the notion from Reese that he "absolutely will not stop" until Sarah's dead, the Terminator is the utmost pinnacle of villains in the Sci-Fi genre.
- Judgment Day:
- The Terminator—second Cyberdyne Model T-101 introduced—was captured by John CONNOR and the Resistance in the future and reprogrammed before then being sent back to protect John as a young boy. First tracking John to his foster parents' house and then to the local mall, the Terminator smuggles his shotgun in through a box of roses, counters the T-1000's first attempt on John there and then rescues him again in a high-speed chase. The Terminator then tricks the T-1000 into giving away that he's murdered John's foster parents and is imitating his foster mother and tells John that he can't help him save his mother Sarah because the T-1000 will get to him easily. Pledging not to kill anyone and helping save Sarah anyway, the Terminator then helps blow Cyberdyne up so as to undo Skynet's existence while also wounding or attacking an army of cops all without causing any deaths. After finally destroying the T-1000, the Terminator has himself sacrificed as another means of preserving the future, proving to Sarah he developed compassion for humans that she didn't think a killing machine could have.
- The T-1000 is a sleek Terminator with a proclivity for subterfuge and deceit, using its knowledge of human behavior and shapeshifting capabilities in its hunt for John Connor. Tracking down John by cleverly using police officer get-up to ask for information around town, the T-1000 nearly kills John several times over, only thwarted by the reformatted T-800, aka "Bob." The T-1000 murders John's foster parents and tries to lure him home disguised as his mother, then tracks down his real mom, Sarah, under the correct assumption that John will run to her. Even when evaded consistently, the T-1000 always finds new ways to track and hunt its prey, stealing cars and helicopters to assist while quickly disposing of anyone in its way. The T-1000 thrashes "Bob" in a physical fight, stabs Sarah to draw John out, and transforms into Sarah herself in a final attempt to assassinate John. With its unique use of its liquid metal physiology and an amusingly deadpan attitude, the T-1000 is a terrifying, awesome presence, and one of the premiere Killer Robots in film history.
- Rise of the Machines:
- The Terminator—third Cyberdyne Model T-101—ended up killing John in the future through the deceptive use of manipulating his feelings toward the Terminator who protected him as a kid. Captured and reprogrammed by John's widow Kate Brewster, the Terminator goes back in time to the early 2000s to protect both John and Kate as young adults from the T-X—latest model sent by Skynet. Hitting T-X with a car first and then forcing her to crash the big truck she's pursuing in, the Terminator also keeps an unwilling Kate hostage until she fully understands the gravity of the situation and uses basic psychology on John when he's doubting himself by threatening him because "anger is more useful than despair". The Terminator also at first refuses to help try saving Kate's father because it'll put them in danger—while he also nearly calls John's bluff on threatening to kill himself—only relenting when Kate asks him to. Overcoming an intrusive reprogramming by T-X at another point, the Terminator then eventually uses an unstable fuel cell to take both himself and T-X out while succeeding in getting John and Kate to the shelter where they'll begin the resistance after Judgment Day to save the future.
- The T-X is an advanced cyborg sent back in time to kill an adult John CONNOR and his future lieutenants. Tracking down and murdering several of the lieutenants, the T-X discovers John and his future wife Kate Brewster and chases them, using her ability to control machines to attack them with several vehicles and almost succeeds in fighting off the T-101 before he crashes her vehicle. The T-X then murders and impersonates Kate’s fiance to trick the police into leading her to Kate and John and is only barely stopped from killing Kate. The T-X then goes after Kate’s father, General Robert Brewster, impersonating Kate in order to kill him and then has several robots kill everyone in the military base to protect the newly uploaded Skynet. Defeating the T-101, the T-X then takes control of him and forces him to attack John. When John traps her with an electromagnet, the T-X is able to escape despite being almost completely immobilized. Even when forced to tear off her legs, the T-X is almost able to kill John before being defeated by the T-101. Showing great intelligence on top of her overwhelming strength, the T-X proves to be one of Skynet’s most dangerous agents.
- Dark Fate: The Rev-9 is the charismatic amalgamation of past Terminators sent from the alternate future by the supercomputer Legion to kill Danielle "Dani" Ramos before she eventually leads the Resistance against it. Using charm and a personable disposition, Rev-9 first tracks down Dani at the factory she works at after murdering and disguising himself as her father, fights off augmented human Grace sent to stop him and uses his separable exoskeleton to doggedly continue pursuit during an extended car chase. Rev-9 then disguises himself as a border patrol agent, gets Dani, Grace and Sarah Connor arrested when sneaking into America, sways agents when he's beeped at a metal detector and takes multiple agents out when they try to restrain him. He also uses multiple tactics to continue pursuit in the air and puts up an immense fight against both Grace and Terminator "Carl" as well. Refusing to relent on his determination in fulfilling his mission, Rev-9 fully proves his own declaration of how "[his] whole body's a weapon".
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 19th 2021 at 9:33:55 AM
Domo Arigato Dr Loboto.
to the Rev-9
Yes to the Rev-9, I too freaking adore Gabriel Luna.
I mean... not only do I like the L entry that's already on The Greats, but... L strikes me as another "Big Good by technicality" case. L is directly in the action nine times out of ten and very frequently shows down with Light directly. I'll wait for other opinions but I'm not sure I love the idea of altering an entry I'm already fond of, which already has about three specific things it references.
Goku Black
Just wait guys. Well get an appropriate example to use one day
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes that was also what I was thinking. I generally want more distance with Big Goods. Well back to the drawing board.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Yes to Rev-9. I hate this movie more than any of the previous bad sequels combined, but yeah, Luna's Terminator counts, particularly considering it's (slightly) more of a Noble Demon without forsaking his predecessor's efficiency.
Woagh
to Loboto and Rev.
Sure to the terminator from the era of the franchise's seemingly cursed to be bad films.
@Scraggle I really like it and I really don't mind the others either (with T3 probably being most respectful to the lore despite definitely not matching up to the first two). Problem is that none of the sequels work after T2 because T2's definitiveness ruins them. They have to resort to Happy Ending Override to continue the story every time, meaning had T2's story been told in two movies, it would've made a very solid trilogy with no need to continue.
Thanks again to Emerald for passing it on. They're free to make any changes they like:
- Terminator: Dark Fate: The Rev-9 is the charismatic amalgamation of past Terminators sent from the alternate future by the supercomputer Legion to kill Danielle "Dani" Ramos before she eventually leads the Resistance against it. Using charm and a personable disposition, Rev-9 first tracks down Dani at the factory she works at after murdering and disguising himself as her father, fights off augmented human Grace sent to stop him and uses his separable exoskeleton to doggedly continue pursuit during an extended car chase. Rev-9 then disguises himself as a border patrol agent, gets Dani, Grace and Sarah Connor arrested when sneaking into America, sways agents when he's beeped at a metal detector and takes multiple agents out when they try to restrain him. He also uses multiple tactics to continue pursuit in the air and puts up an immense fight against both Grace and Terminator "Carl" as well. Refusing to relent on his determination in fulfilling his mission, Rev-9 fully proves his own declaration of how "[his] whole body's a weapon".
Yes to Cruller, Loboto, and the Rev-9.
Professor Gigachad
Rev-9, I remember this film got pretty good reviews though I guess everyone didn't like it.
Alright ~ Cring 1 Ulysses was proposed 17 days ago. Let's get a writeup.
Moved the full tree above.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Dec 19th 2021 at 7:03:39 AM
Ghost Rider Terminator
Lies and Violence!
You just posted the tree a few hours ago, I don’t think we need another reminder.
