During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Woagh
Time to give this thread an M Rating!
This guy is someone I'm not entirely sure about, especially compared to the remake, but hey, never hurts to make a case for him.
What's the Work?
Splatterhouse is a trilogy of violent Beat Em Ups released by Namco. These games tell the story of Rick Taylor, who must save his girlfriend from every horror scenario imaginable: poltergeists, zombies, demons, knives, you name it. He does this with the help of a demonic mask called The Terror Mask.
Now, we already have two candidates from the remake, The Mask itself and The Biggy Man boss, but the original version of the Mask is pretty manipulative in its own right, sooo....
Who is The Terror Mask?
The mask that gives Rick his powers, who's a lot more cold and sinister than his cheerfully sadistic remake counterpart, but just as manipulative.
What does he do?
So generally, the Excuse Plot of the first game tends to change with each port, such as the presence of a "Dr. West", but the premise itself stays the same: Rick and his girlfriend, Jennifer, take refuge in a haunted mansion from a nasty storm, only for the monsters that inhabit the manor to kidnap Jen and mortally wound Rick. The Terror Mask then appears and offers to help Rick save his girlfriend for seemingly no reason, which Rick accepts, and turns him into a badass muscly dude. He then goes on a rampage throughout the mansion to save Jen, only to find out that she's been turned into a monster herself, and Rick is forced to kill her in self defense. He then burns down the mansion and kills what is apparently behind all the monsters, Hell Chaos (Or Captain Mozzarella to some fans).
Then we get to the second game, where Rick, who in this continuity can take off the mask just fine, is still grieving about his dead girlfriend. The Mask, showcasing his sentience, then reveals that it's aware of a possible way of literally going to hell and plucking Jen out of it, and will only reveal it once he wears him once again. Rick, being convinced easily by it, again agrees, and the two set off on a mad quest to go to hell and rescue Jen, something that goes surprisingly smoothly all things considered. They even manage to kill yet another evil demon leader, some weird floating heart thing called The Ultimate Evil (Fun fact, it makes a cameo in the remake as the heart and weak point of the Final Boss).
A few years pass after this game, and Rick and Jen have a child named David, having started a family together. Unfortunately, the true leader of the demons, The Dark One (Good god, do any of them have actual names instead of titles?) is pretty pissed that his minions have been completely trashed, and has his remaining men capture Jen and David and bring them to yet another haunted mansion. Once again, The Mask persuades Rick to wear him again, and Rick races against the clock to save his family from demons. Wether you actually save them or not, Rick faces The Dark One in combat and ultimately manages to kill it. The end, right?
As it turns out, The Mask is actually a dick. As he explains, he purposely had Rick do all of this crazy shit so that he could kill the abominations that threaten Earth. Why? So that he could conquer it with no competition, of course! The Mask, wise to the fact that Rick has the potential to kill him, fights him in a Battle in the Center of the Mind, complete with two tough phases. Ultimately, Rick manages to overcome The Mask, who then disintegrates into nothing, and Rick, depending on the ending, is either a happy family man or some depressed guy whose family just died.
Is he Magnificent?
Now, obviously we're gonna compare him to his more benevolent reboot self, but considering the reboot has a fairly deep plot while the originals are Excuse Plots with some backstory, I think it's fair to judge them by their own merits.
With that said, by Excuse Plot standards? His scheme was pretty well-executed, gaining Rick's trust by simply helping him save his girlfriend while subtly directing him to kill everything in your way, which just so happens to be his competition for world conquest. It's implied that he can't just stick to his hosts like his reboot version can, so he has to resort to manipulation to get what he wants, and wouldn't you know it, he's pretty good at it.
We do get a bit of personality as well via text boxes, a intro monologue in the second game and a few times in the third game, portraying him as a cold, calculating figure that knows just what buttons to push to get what he wants. He also contributes to the game's over the top tone, which, while the game's a lot more sinister than the borderline cartoonish reboot, it does have some cheeky moments (You punch haunted floating knives, for crying out loud).
Is he a Bastard?
Wants to Take Over the World and tries to forcibly take over Rick to do so. Yup, he's good. That said, he also doesn't show much, if any, of the gleeful sadism his reboot counterpart has, with monsters usually dying in one or two punches. We also have no idea just how bad his planned conquest would be, and considering how brutal and dangerous his competition was, he might actually be the Lesser of Two Evils. He's still undeniably evil, that's for sure.
Overall?
By the game's own merits, I think he counts, but compared to the remake, does he still stack up?
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 16th 2021 at 7:27:38 AM
NOISE IS CALLING, PICK UP PHONE
Y'know, the lack of detail on his world conquering honestly sells me on him. Dude seems plenty magnificent, even if it's in a different way. Yea to the original Terror Mask.
Gotta love Jaws!
Agreed, I think it only comes up short when compared to the remake version but this was obviously made a long ass time ago with no knowledge such a thing would happen. It's bad but I think this is a case where not having a detailed enough plan to be something like a CM helps make it less revolting than it could have been. Yes from me!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Gaerity, Astrid, Otakemaru, and the Terror Mask.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Rusty Pete, Captain Leo, Donny, Gaerity, Astrid, Otakemaru, and the Terror Mask.
- Nioh 2: Otakemaru, often operating under his guise of Kasshin Koji, was once a kind demon twisted into hatred and rage by the persecution of humanity. Possessing numerous key figures throughout Japanese history, including Ashiya Doman, Otakemaru plans to unleash the Yokai and bring humanity to ruin. Masterminding the unsealing of the other Yokai as well as multiple wars, Otakemaru corrupts the kindly Tokichiro into the bloodthirsty Hideyoshi, with even death being insufficient to truly extinguish his spirit until a final battle with his sister Suzuka's child Hide.
This also reminds me cuz it seems to be something of a perennial problem here: I once brought up, in the hopes of avoiding the badge of honour shit with CM-MB crossovers that we don't reference CM status if it exists for the candidate. Of course that didn't quite work either, as a good faith post on a character who was a CM wound up looking like they weren't because while it referenced crimes, a slight spin of wording caused their personality and motivations to seem drastically shifted from what the show presents and we won't up removing them after the poor poster had to do a second EP.
Again I feel kinda silly bringing this up because of the 1800+ we have listed 40 of them meet this category and if CM didn't have a devoted thread of its own no one would care. Seriously, it would be like taking another random rarely occurring attribute (let's say no moral agency, like my own Varohl, V.I.K.I. and Marou) and obsessing over it.
So like... what's the simple solution here? Do we wanna just come out and say it in the EP because it's going to get discovered sooner or later. The best example I can think of the two tropes living in harmony is Steerpike, who's on my mind because I'm reading his books now: like, I looked up Lighty's old CM EP on him and everything is intellectually consistent with what was later written on his MB one... none of the waffling I typically see going from the CM one fleshing out the crimes as much as possible and then aa later MB one basically going "Okay, I know that sounds bad but lemme try and think of something on the spot to patch this up."
I'm getting pretty close to going "If you wanna do a crossover, go for it but if I recheck your work and find a single thing out of place, get ready for things to get ugly" because at this point an unending problem is being perpetuated while details are downplayed or outright missed to get one of these listed and I'm tired of repeating the simple metric: if they're a CM before "MB", they're right out, too much of a Bastard and that's it, end of conversation and that getting ignored.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Sorry I haven't done the Lionel Luthor rewrite yet. I will try to get to that as soon as I can.
Edited by Bullman on Mar 16th 2021 at 10:53:19 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
No worries man, he's got an entry that just needs fixing up, take all the time you need.
The Moron
Well, as I've come to understand it, crossovers essentially have to meet four criteria simultaneously: they meet the heinousness standards of the work (for CM) without going incredibly over the meta heinousness (for MB) and being unsympathetic (CM) while still being cool (MB), and I would just make that clear in both posts. Explaining why they meet the heinousness standard and why we as the audience don't support them, but how they're still not too much to stomach and are cool or fun to watch. That's why I've since come around to Sigma counting as a crossover - he's brutal enough by the show's standards for CM, but in terms of the genre he just kills a bunch of Mooks and tortures Alpha, which isn't particularly horrible from a meta standpoint. Meanwhile, Sigma as Meta looks like a badass and pulls off some cool tech-based gambits.
In terms of avoiding issues with continuity between threads? Quite frankly, I'm not sure there's much that can be done besides just holding the people accountable for ensuring that there's no discrepancies. Any method of trying to litigate one thread or the other that I could think of could potentially backfire (i.e. if the first EP contains a warning that you're going for a crossover, people might downvote on principle). Heck, it might be worth a notation in the header for the thread, something like -
"While crossovers between Magnificent Bastard and Complete Monster are possible and have occurred, they are treated with extreme caution. If you intend to propose a crossover character, take extra care to ensure there are no discrepancies between threads - it is easy for potential crossovers to cross the line from "Bastard" to "Monster", and such discrepancies will not be appreciated".
Or at least something similar - just something to make clear that while crossovers are possible (and this trope certainly shouldn't be considered "diet CM"), they're given some extra scrutiny to ensure that they are a genuine crossover, and attempts to obfuscate in either thread just to get a crossover won't end well.
Alright, let's do this.
What is the work?
The Mario & Luigi games are a series of RPGs that tell a set of stories about Mario and Luigi defeating villains both new and old. In it someone gets hit with a massive bout of Villain Decay, but over the series we see him claw his way back up to his rightful position of Big Bad.
We've got five games to go through one's climb to the top, so this may take a while.
Who is he?
One of the oldest, most classic, most beloved and most veteran of gaming villains, I think it's finally time we put a spotlight on the King of the Koopas, Bowser.
What does he do?
...Sigh. Alright, let's get this out of the way first. Bowser's performance in the first game is abysmal. And for the record, I'm going to be adding Minion's Quest to this. In the first game, Bowser shows up to kidnap Peach when he realizes that Cackletta has stollen her voice. (Except not really. They knew she was coming and replaced her with a fake.) After getting beaten by Mario, he teams up with him and Luigi to get her voice back, they travel to the Beanbag Kingdom, only to get their ride blown up by Fawful. Over the course of the game, Bowser gets stuck in a cannon, fired out of the cannon, gets kidnapped by Fawful, only to punch him away, (His ONLY good mark here.) loses his memory by Captain Goomba landing on him, collapses of starvation and recovers only because Popple trips and drops some stolen food in his mouth, becomes a goon of Popple, gets his memory back... when he is super high in the sky and crash lands and goes unconscious and gets possessed by Cackletta spirit looking for a host after the was recently defeated by Mario and Luigi, becoming Bowletta. Eventually Bowletta was defeated and Bowser wakes up in his flying castle, which immediately self-destructs, sending him into the water. He is then carted off in a giant present by Mario and Luigi on their trip back home and dropped off at the base of his castle, were the minions repair the castle, Bowser promotes Captain Goomba, only to immediately undo the promotion and chase the Goomba when he remembers him as the one who cost him his memory.
Yeah... not a good first impression. Fortunately we have four more games to go.
...Or I would say that, but Bowser really doesn't do much in the second game. After Mario and Luigi finally rescue Peach from the Shroobs in the past, they bring her back the present. Or so they thought. It was actually Princess Shroob in disguise who saw an opportunity to take over in the present time as well, but Bowser kidnaps her thinking she was Peach and winds up falling into a time hole into the past, foiling her plans. He ends up in a volcano and meets his past self and they briefly get into an argument. Mario and Luigi, not knowing it was Princess Shroob in disguise go after 'Peach' and end up fighting both Bowser and his Baby self together. The Bowsers lose and 'Peach' gets abducted by the Shroobs with the Mario bros giving chase. Bowser is launched out of the volcano by an eruption, reminds his younger to grow bigger and more eviler (I should note that he never finds out that was his past self.) and crashes back into the present and stays unconscious till the very end of the game where he eats Elder Princess Shroob's mushroomed remains and initiates that bizarre Shrowser fight. The Mario bros win and that's it. We don't even know what they do with his unconscious body.
Game 3. Bowser has a much bigger role in this game as he is one of the main playable characters and he does a good job getting rid of his Badass Decay in this story and reminding us why he is the King of the Koopas. This will easily be the longest part of my writeup. I will be adding Bowser Jr's Journey to this as well.
Kamek is warning Bowser about something heading towards him, but it's too late. It's revealed to be Bowser Jr. riding a rolling Blorbed Goomba. Just when they were about to crash into Bowser, Bowser just punches the Goomba away, learns about the Blorbs from Kamek, and about the conference about them and how he wasn't invited. (something that was implied to be because of Fawful so that Bowser would get angry,) Bowser, upset about not being invited heads towards Peach's castle and asks the Koopalings to take care of Bower Jr. Bowser then enters Peaches castle wanting information on the Blorbs pandemic, only to lose his temper at the sight of Mario. They fight and Bowser loses easily due to Peach and Starlow combining their magic to weaken him and then yeet him out of the castle. Kamek finds him in Dimble Woods and heals him. Bowser, not ready to throw in the towel yet tries to head right back to Peach's Castle, but is stopped on the way when he encounters Fawful in disguise who offers him a mysterious mushroom that says will give him powers. What it actually does is put him under Fawful's control and give him Kirby-level vacuum powers. He inhales a bunch of pipes, and everyone in Peach's castle, then collapses. Fawful uses this to take over Peach's and Bowser's castle. However Bowser awakens and starts to head over to his castle to take it back. On the way there, Mario, Luigi and Starlow help him inside his body (Without him ever learning about it until the end of the adventure) and he gains the ability to use the inhale at will. He eventually enters Dimble woods again, saves some Goombas and find the Elite Trio, who have a canon, so Bowser finds a Banzai bill after eating a giant carrot and a worm that was inside the carrot. They fire at their castle, but thanks to Fawful's improvements give it the ability to fly and they dodge and land right on Bowser. This is where the Mario bros learn that they can make Bowser giant if he has taken mortal damage. Bowser grows huge and causes the castle to retreat with Bowser giving chase. He is eventually able to launch a giant cannonball shot at him by the castle back at it, grounding it thanks to Mario and Luigi boosting his strength. He storms the place, but realizes everyone is brainwashed. After finding Fawful, watching a show and beating his minion Midbus, Fawful invites to eat some food, which he does. (Not one of his smartest choices, but according to him it was actually really good food.) The food was so fattening that it caused Bowser to fatten up to the point that he breaks through the floor and gets stuck. Fortunately the change in Bowser's body allows the Mario bros to find Peach. Unfortunately Fawful learns that he needs Peach to awaken the Dark Star, his primary goal. So he uses a machine to pull her out how Bowser's body, leaving the Mario bros back at square one. Bowser finally falls through the floor and lands on a treadmill where he burns away all the fat in a workout - literally; This actually causes him to catch on fire... when he is where he stores the Bob-ombs. The explosion launches him out of the castle and into a mine. There he meets some Monty Moles who are trying accomplish an old project of Bowser's a secret tunnel to Toad Town (You know, to help with kidnappings). Bowser helps out and ends up in a cave nearby... and gets shocked unconscious by the security system, since this is where the Toads have sealed away the Dark Star. This also allows the Mario Bros to reach to the pipes the Warp Pipes Bowser inhaled, finally giving them a way out. They end up in... Toad Town Caves. What a coincidence. They try to catch up with Fawful, who is trying to get the Dark Star, but they fail. Fawful then hides in Peach's Castle and erect some barriers with the Dark Stars power. The Mario bros find Toadly, a doctor for some answers and by the time the reach him, Bowser wakes up and tails them. He then fights them in Toadly's ward. After beating Bowser, the Mario bros learn of the Miracle cures owned by three Sages which can cure the Blorbs and destroy the barrier. Bowser overhears and the chase is on. Bowser looks for the first cure, ends up fighting a giant tower as Giant Bowser again and gains a new ability, but it's hopeless; the first sage is the worm Bowser originally ate making the first cure completely unobtainable for him. The Mario bros re-enter his body through the pipes and win the first race by default. It's revealed that Bowser already has the second cure, having stole it from the second sage over frustration on not being able to solve any of his puzzles. It's in his castle now. The Mario bros let him get this one since he would have a better shot at storming his own castle. Bowser return to his castle, fighting against his brainwashed minions, meets up with the Elite Trio and enters his vault... only to find train tracks in there. In a few moments a train called the Fawful Express comes by being the Monty moles from earlier. Turns out the Bowser's tunnel project was bought-out by Fawful. He completed it and made a train to go through it. The Monty moles have switched sides as well. Bowser torches them, then heads to his safe. the Monty mole retaliate by ramming him with their train. the ram through several boulders and the Bowser nearly stops the train with his bear hands... only for a pebble to hit his tailside, letting the train crush him by ramming him into a giant boulder. The Mario bros turn him giant, Bowser fights the train in the most annoying boss in the game. Bowser then heads back to the castle, opens the vault with some help (He needed the Mario bros to fix his memory of the passcode after the train crash damaged his memory.) and grabs the cure... only for the Elite Trio to ambush him and trap him in his own safe and put of the safe somewhere far away. They were also brainwashed by Fawful. Bowser eats the cure out of frustration for it getting him in this position in the first place and The Mario bros get it. Bowser is out of commission until the Mario bros get the third cure, cure the Blorbs for the Toads and enter Peach's castle. After storming the gardens they end up at the castles garbage, where Midbus summons the robot Junker to attack them. After beating Junker, Junker goes haywire running all over the place and manages to find the safe Bowser was in, and breaks him out. With Bowser in the castle, the Mario bros decide he has a better shot at storming the place so they return to his body to inform him of where he is, what to do, as well as fix a back injury he obtained. Bowser does so, ransacking the castle, beating the minions, and finding Fawful and having another shot at Midbus. After Beating Midbus, Fawful had finish using Peach to reawaken the Dark Star, and begins absorbing it's power, and gloating that the world is his but Bowser scoffs claims the world belongs to him and punches him away before he could finish. Bowser having both Peach and the Dark Star now laughs in triumph... only for the Dark Star to enter his body and star absorbing his DNA. It eventually leaves Bowser's body after getting enough DNA to obtain his form and powers becoming Dark Bowser. Dark Bowser, looking for the power Fawful absorbed, starts inhaling things, starting with Peach. Upset at this Bowser gives chase, only for Fawful, now Dark Fawful, to turn Peach's castle into a robot and crushes Bowser, requiring the Mario bros to trigger Giant Bowser one last time. Bowser beats Peach's Castle, and according to the remake, actually punches it across the entire world. After beating the castle Bowser gives chase to Dark Bowser but spots Fawful looking for the Dark Star. Bowser decides to dispatch him, and Fawful, having half of the Dark Star's power thinks he has the strength to beat him. He's wrong. After getting his teeth kicked in, Fawful turns into a dark bug and scampers off. Starlow and Bowser realize if Dark Bowser inhales Fawful, he would have all his power back AND Bowser's powers and decide to stop that from happening, but are too late. Dark Bowser inhales Fawful and regains its full power. Bowser wanting Peach back, runs after him, chasing him up a tower Fawful built in the Castle. He spars with Dark Bowser with fire breath and slamming their shells at each other with Bowser. Bowser wins both clashes before chasing him at the top of the tower. Dark Bowser, fully awakened now, unleashed a massive dark hurricane that threatens to engulf everything. After some support from Starlow, Dark Bowser claims that Bowser, the kingdom, and all who dwell within will soon vanish. Bowser's response?
And so the final battle of the game begins. Bowser overcomes every attack Dark Bowser has even one where he sends an entire army at him. Bowser manages to force Dark Bowser to cough up Fawful and inhale him, where the Mario Bros deal with him. After a gruelling fight, Mario and Luigi defeat Fawful, destabilizing Dark Bower. Bowser takes the opportunity to punch him and punch him and PUNCH HIM! into oblivion.
- Dark Bowser: I have fallen... To come so far... So far... To lose...
Bowser: Hey... You just ACTED like me. That doesn't mean you ARE me. You're no match for the real deal, original Bowser...
Dark Bowser: Dark... Even with the dark power completed... The unthinkable happened...
Bowser: Right... You... LOST!
After the fight, Bowser plans to kidnap Peach. However, Fawful unleashes a suicide attack against the Mario bros, but it only succeeds at expelling everyone out of Bowser's body at long last. After Bowser recovers, he realizes what was going on and looses it realizing that the Mario Bros were in his body the whole time. He fights the Mario bros, but we know how that matchup goes. Bowsers minions carry his battered body back and everyone works on fixing their castles while Bowser recovers. The Elite Trio apologize for their action and Bowser tells them to get back to work, the trio happy for a second chance. He also gets given a cake by Peach and the Mario bros for thanks for helping with Fawful. He eventually sleeps off his injuries and the blurbed minions would be cured with the help of Bowser Jr. who found a cure that involves slimming down. Bowser would eat a cure to try to shake off the effect of the mushroom and all the things he inhaled, but it turns him into Dry Bowser, but only temporary. After learning about Bower Jr's adventure, he decides to challenge him to a fight which Jr eagerly accepts. And the spar a lot and clearly are enjoying themselves.
Whew! That was a lot! like I said, not much on the Magnificent Bastard part, but this game does wonders in removing the stench of the awful performance from the first game perfectly paving the way for...
Game 4. And this is where things get good.
Princess Peach, Mario, Luigi, Toadsworth, Starlow and some Toads were invited to Pi'illo Island, a land of dreams. In it Luigi has the power to open the Dream Dream portals into the Dream world by falling asleep in certain locations. (And from here out, If I way Luigi when they are in the Dream world, I mean Dreamy Luigi, Luigi's dreamed up self. Luigi will be asleep in the real world.) And when he does do, Antasma, a Bat fuelled by nightmares that was sealed reaches out of the portal and kidnaps Peach, intending to steal her magic and escapes into the core of the Dream World, Dreams Deep. Mario and Luigi chase him down into Dreams Deep and corner him, but in the real world Bowser, Kamek and the Elite Trio appears. Bowser, whose intel group told him about the Island and Peach's kidnapping is pissed that someone else kidnapped her and smelling Peach's perfume coming out of Luigi's Dream portal, jumps in after her. Mario had just retrieved Peach from Antasma when Bowser appears and punches him for trying to kidnap Peach. Antasma, sensing Bowser's strength and evil, decides to ditch Peach and offers his powers to Bowser, claiming he can give him power beyond his wildest dreams as well as new moves to fight the Mario bros. Bowser accepts the deal and after a boss fight, Antasma powers up Bowser fire breath, allowing him to defeat the Mario bros. Antasma convinces Bowser to hold off kidnapping Peach and prioritize his plan for now, with Bower telling Mario to look after her until he kidnaps her again. Then they take off looking for the Dream Stone, a magic rock that can grant wishes when at full power and successfully get it before the Mario bros do. They head up to Mount Pajamaja, where the prepare to power up the Dream Stone. Mario and Luigi give chases Bowser and Antasma talk about the wishes they will make on the Dream Stone. When Antasma speaks his desires to take over the world Bowser objects because that's his wish. Antasma claims to have misspoken, what he really wants is to spread his wing and do whatever he wants which satisfies Bower. By the time Mario and Luigi show up, it is too late. Bowser and Antasma have set up some super powerful speakers and start playing the Dreambeats making any non-magical being fall asleep (Bowser escapes this by covering he ears XD) so that the Dream Stone could absorb the islands dream power. Luigi falls asleep and Mario escapes into the Dream world to avoid the same fate, putting them out of commission until the Dream Stone Finishes charging up. With the Dream Stone, Bowser ponders what to wish for first and Antasma suggest a castle. Bowser likes the idea and wishes up a brand new super-castle for themselves that they call Neo Bowser Castle. Then to test its power, they blow up the three tiny islands around around the main island along with erecting a force field. Seeing this, everyone decides to hide Peach into the Dream World for safety, not knowing Bowser used a wish to kidnap her and disguise Kamek as her to distract and dispose of the Mario bros. This doesn't work and eventually (and I do mean eventually. This takes the rest of the game.) the Mario bros awaken the Zeekeeper, the guardian of the island to destroy the barrier and sent the castle to the ground. Mario and Luigi infiltrate the castle, and get past Kamek. Antasma has Bowser go to sleep so he can us his Dreams as fuel to power the castle and put a barrier around them. Mario and Luigi enter his dreams to force him to wake up, but it's obviously not easy and it cumulates with with Bowser's dream self forcing himself to take a fatal fall to trigger his Giant transformation. Dreamy Luigi responds with turning into Giant Luigi (An ability I didn't need bring up until now) resulting in a titanic battle against Bowser and his dreamed up minions, culminating in a Dreamed up Kamek turning the Giant Bowser giant, making Giant GIANT Bowser, the biggest he has ever been, even counting Fury Bowser. However, even this form goes down. After leaving the Dream world, Bowser chew out the Mario Bros for invading his dreams and has Antasma fly him upstairs for their showdown. Mario and Luigi follow suit. When they arrive, Antasma vows things will be different than when he lost a long time ago since he has Bowser now... only for Bowser to fling him away.
- Bowser: Hmph! I don't work well with others!
Antasma: SCREEK! Vut do you mean by this?!
Bowser: I mean you're an idiot! You thought you were using me? ME?! Buddy, I was playing you like a bat fiddle!
Antasma: But int the... No! How could you?!
Bowser: I'll tell you how. This castle? Peach? The Dream Stone? ALL MINE. You hear me? They belong to Bowser!
With that, Bowser uses the Dream Stone to float to the top of the castle, leaving Antasma to be slain by the Mario bros. After that the Mario bros give chase, going through the Elite trio as well. At the top Bowser tries to use the Dream Stone to wish the Mario bros out of existence, but with Peach imprisoned nearby, Starlow and Peach combing their magic again, this time to shatter the Dream Stone. Bowser retaliates by inhaling the shards, transforming into Dreamy Bower, triggering the Final Boss of the game. It's a gruelling fight, but the Mario bros win. Bowser reverts to normal and Mario and Luigi hammer him into the horizon. We later see Bowser and his minions retreating on a damaged Koopa Clown car, with Bowser blaming the loss on Antasma, but he does admit that his minions actually did pretty well. He then vows he will continue to kidnap Peach until he succeeds. He yells out to Mario he will be back and finally acknowledges Luigi as an adversary as well. Then the clown car starts to dip into the sea due to a show of coins causing the minions to jostle it.
And that's game 4. And with that, Bowser actually pulls one over a villain. This is THE moment that enable him to be a contender in this series. And he won't slow down just yet.
Game 5. This will be the last one. After the Paper Mario Book had spat out all of the Paper Mario characters, Mario and Luigi round up the Paper Toads and the Paper Koopa troop meet their normal selves. Bowser, who had been making plans to take town Mario as always, meets his paper self and gets into a fight with him, but they soon realize they have their enemy of Mario in common, and both decide to kidnap Peach and Paper Peach. After doing so and taunting the Mario bros and sicking Petey Pirahna on them to keep them busy. After that, they round up both Paper and regular armies and make a speech to hype them up, as well as argue over who is making the speech. Also, during all this, the Koopa troop create and have King Bob-omb shower the the Mushroom Kingdom with Paper Terrain and Paper Minions to make traveling more difficult. Mario and Luigi make headway into heading towards the castle, with Kamek and Paper Kamek hindering them as much as they can. Eventually make it to the castle... only for Bowser to fire cannonballs at them to destroy the bridge, and knock the Mario bros out allowing the minions and Koopalings to lock them up in Twisty Tropics Dungeon and steal their attack options, crippling their ability to fight. ALSO, they found the Paper Mario Book in Mario's pocket, and Bowser Jr and Paper Bowser Jr take it. They plan on tossing it in the trash but decide not to so that they can visit the Paper World one day. They try to talk to the Bowsers about it but instead ask the Bowser Jr.s to guard the Peaches. After seeing them whine, and with the advice of the Kamek, Bowser sends them to the Villa at Mount Brr to take guard the Princesses and play with a new weapon. (A giant Papercraft Bower Jr.). Mario and Luigi escape jail, due to Paper Pario being really thin enough to go through the bars and being really hard to tie up. Then they make their way through the dungeons, getting their commands back. They also find Toads there, being forced to mine and haul Fire Ore for... something. We'll get back to this later. Mario and Luigi bust the Toads out by defeating Roy and Wendy who were acting as the wardens there, and escaping themselves. The Mario bros make it to Mount Brr and defeat the Papercraft, but by the time they do, it was already time to return to Bowser's Castle with the Peach's, their playtime over. However the Jrs leave behind the key to the entrance to a backdoor to Bowser's castle. Mario and Luigi Pursue. The Peaches escape by Tricking the Bowser Jrs. They get caught by them again, but by then Mario and Luigi were right in front of them. They bolt, but the Mario bros catch them and beat them. The Peach's get rescued but then both Bowsers appear, having finished what the needed to do to the castle while the Jrs were guarding peach. The see their sons on the floor, and loose it, grabbing them, activating the the modifications to the castle, using a mixture of rockets and Cardboard to lift it into the sky with a brand new cannon. They dub it... Neo Bowser Castle... Yeah... Anyways, with the Bowsers standing in the way of the book and ROYALY pissed off about the state of their sons, the Mario bros and the Peaches wisely decide to bolt, leaping off the castle and using their paper selves to float to safety. They head back to Peach's castle but on the way there, Bowser sends his castle, and his entire fleet of airships, to barrage the castle in cannonballs, heavily damaging it.
- Bowser: I'm gonna bury you with cannonballs! This is for Giving Junior an owie!
With that, Bowser fires the main cannon, leaving Peaches' castle in a state of near-collapse. Bowser claims that it's quite useful some unpaid word from some Toads (revealing he probably made the toads work on this as well. though I should mention the minions helped too) can do and claims that with this new power, he will rule with an iron fist. Paper Bowser objects, and both Bowsers and both Kameks privately admit that the other one's have probably outlived their usefulness. The Bowser's admit that's true, but they are also powerful. The Kameks both have the idea to use the book to get rid of the other Bowser. Mario remains the top priority, so this never comes to pass. Speaking of Mario, the Bros make it back to Mount Brr, destroy King Bob-omb, ending the Paper Terrain business and use a staircase of Paper Toads to reach the castle. Things... are not easy for the Mario bros. Bowser captures the all the Papercraft's Mario has to show off the power of his newest ultimate Papercraft, fuelled by the Fire Ore he gained - Papercraft Bowser. Bowser then uses Papercraft Bowser to torch the other Papercrafts, but Toadette has the idea to use the remaining Fire Ore to make a new more powerful Papercraft. Bowser has no idea what they are going to use the Ore for, but he tries to stop them, which boils down to Bowser and the Mario bros throwing bombs at each other. Mario grabs the other Fire Ore and heads to the Bowsers who are glad to see him, but try to cut the fight short by using a Papercraft Canon to fire a Papercraft Banzai Bill - only for both to by incinerated by the new creation, Papercraft Fire Mario. what results is a Boss Rush of every other Papercraft until the fight against Papercraft Bowser. The Mario bros win. The Bowsers decide to retreat to the back and regroup the rest of the Koopalings and the army, and split the bridge. Also, the Koopalings they to activate the main cannon to destroy Peach's castle once and for all, after repairing the Bridge and destroying the canon, The Mario bros head towards the Bowsers, who sends everyone at them. Kamek and Paper Kamek, multiple waves of minions, all seven and all seven Koopalings. when the Mario bros finally reach the Bowsers who claim that when whey beat them, they are going to trap the Mario bros in the book and torch it, so they will never have to see them again and they clearly want to do the same to the other Bowser as well, but they are smart enough to but that problem aside until the Bros are down. They fight, and after some rounds, Bowser and Paper Bowser fuse along with the rest of the Paper Army to create Shiny RoboBowser, a Giant Bowser with a Paper Mecha Armor. It's a tough fight, but the Mario bros prevail. The force of the defusion leaves Paper Bowser without any strength, leaving him to be banished back into the book, and sends regular Bowser off the balcony, falling a loooong way down. The Mario bros send all the rest of the minions and Toads back into the book and say goodbye to Paper Peach and Paper Mario as well. The story ends with the rest of them resting in the restored Peach's castle... only for Bowser to come back and attack the castle again, with Mario and Luigi heading out to stop him.
You can't keep the King of the Koopas down!!
Is he magnificent?
Well, for Magnificence, if you were to use the first two games, absolutely not. Bowser is a JOKE in the first game and really does nothing to improve in the second one. Thankfully, the third game came back and fixes this my reminding us just how much of a mighty force Bowser is when he is truly focused on something, doing a miracle in scrubbing off his performance Superstar Saga had him in, and showing us why he truly is, King of the Koopas. And after that, he doesn't slow down. Hijacking Antasma's plan, after playing second fiddle to three Big Bads in three games, with the implication he was letting Antasma fall for his hammy personality for the moment he could take over, was a moment of brilliance for him and THE moment that made him a potential candidate for this trope. And in the sequel, despite having another Bowser to share the spotlight with, it doesn't stop him from being a powerful, competent, cunning, dangerous villain. As for Paper Bowser planning to betray him, Bowser was also planing to betray him as well, due to having similar thoughts as each other. Due to it never amounting to anything, we never figured out who would succeed in that, but I honestly think Regular Bowser would prevail, due to Paper Bower having a fire weakness in that game.
As for charisma, He always has that in all of his games. He is alway his comedic bombastic, hammy self. He is still the Bowser we have known and loved since day one.
Is He a Bastard? Too much?
Well in the first three games, no. He's on your side in the first game, doesn't do much in the second game, and is and Anti-Hero in the third game. However, with him teaming up and double crossing Antasma as well as all of the things he does in the fourth and fifth games, I think that's enough.
As for being too heinous, uh, he's Bowser. No. He doesn't do anything that would cross that line...
Except maybe for one thing.
Alright, let's talk about this. Right before the final battle, the Bowser's tell their plan for the Mario bros and the Book.
- Paper Bowser: First, we're gonna beat you! Next, we're going to trap you in this book! And then we're gonna throw the book in the garbage...AND LIGHT THE GARBAGE ON FIRE! BWAHAHA!
Bowser: That way we'll never have to see your stupid moustaches ever again...
Many people, myself included for interpreted that meant that Bowser planed to destroy all the lives within that book, which would have disqualified him, easily. But the thing is, I don't think that was what the game was trying to say. Whenever the book was missing, there was never a worry by anyone about any of the lives in the book, even after Bowser's plan was revealed. (And before you ask, yes I think the games can get dark enough to mention that. Remember when the shroobs sucked out the life force of all the Toads and a scientist literally turned into a monster right in front of you in Woohoo University?) even when the plan was made bear. The only worry was if they could ever go home again. I honestly think that everyone was ejected from that world. (Yeah I know, but remember this was the Sticker Star era) which would mean the absolute worst destroying the book could have possibly done was destroy the Paper Mushroom Kingdom, which would have sucked yes, but it's not the Omnicidal destruction of life some people make it out to be.
Honestly, I kind of find this whole thing kind of weird, since in the very next game, the Remake of Superstar Saga in Minion's Quest, Captain Goomba was able to successfully discover something was wrong with Bowser (Who was Bowletta at the time), because they told him to "Destroy" Mario, which sounded unnaturally hardcore for the guy.
So, no, I don't think that is enough to disqualify Bowser. And while we are at it. the Slavery isn't either. He's just making the Toads grab and make some things. That's it. And as always, his love for his son always shines through everything else. It's quite clear he loves the boy.
Conclusion?
Really, aside from the Book thing, which I don't even think is supposed to interpreted as the way it could disqualify him, I really see nothing that could keep him from qualifying. He has come a long way since the first game. Speaking of which...
What is the Game?
Let's rewind a bit, shall we? Mario And Luigi Super Star Saga (as well as the Spinoff Minion's Quest) Is the tale of Mario and Luigi rescuing Princess Peach's voice from a villain from the Beanbean Kingdom. You see, in that kingdom there is a wish granting star that is in a deep sleep, that can be only awakened by Peach's voice. And a cackling villain wants that power to take over the world.
Who is she?
That's right, I'm not done yet. I want to talk about the villain of the very first game of the Series, Cackletta. Gets take a look at her, shall we?
What has she done?
Just as a side note, If you you don't remember something in this happening, I'm also including Minion's Quest in this as well.
Cackletta starts off the game, disguised as Lady Lima, ambassador of the Beanbean Kingdom, giving a gift to Peach. What she REALLY did however, was spray her with a gas that stole her voice and replacing it with explosives. Then she takes off with Fawful with her FREAKING ROCKET CHAIR, escaping with the voice. When Mario, Luigi and Bowser (Who is helping because kidnapping a bomb spewing princess is bad for his castle) give chase in the the Koopa Cruiser, she has Fawful crash the Koopa Cruiser, and makes her way to Hoohoo Mountain where she turns Prince Peasley into a dragon and traps him in an egg. (Also, I should mention here that Fawful manages to brainwash the Koopalings who were in the Koopa Cruiser but this was resolved by Captain Goomba and is NOT the reason they help out Bowletta.) Then they make their way to the Beanbean Castle Town, and ravage the place with a bunch of Fawful Bots invade the castle, imprison everyone, and turns Queen Bean into a monster by force-feeding her a Belly Blech Worm. Then, disguising herself Lady Lima, when the Mario Bros catch up to her, sends them to the basement using the destruction of the castle as an excuse that she can't trust anyone. She then claims that they can prove they are truly the Mario bros by showing their plumbing capabilities by fixing the castle plumbing - which is, in actually, the system to turn off the barrier protecting the Beanstar. The Mario bros fall for the trick, and Cackletta sicks Queen Bean on them while she takes off. By the time they find a cure and Peasley finds out where they were, Cackletta had taken over Woohoo University and had turned the scientists there into Laser Snifits. Cackletta sets up some Peach Bots with Peach's voice to awaken the Beanstar... And the voice sends the Beanstar into a rage so great it shatters into four pieces. Cackletta, confused at this outcome, is further upset when the Mario Bros appear. Cackletta vows to send them back to the Mushroom Kingdom... but loses the fight. A battered husk on the ground, Fawful absorbs her essence into his helmet and at the request of Cackletta, is about to unleash a brutal attack on the Mario bros... only for Prince Peasley to swoop in, sending them flying. The Mario bros make their back and Prince Peasley tells them that Peach is on the way. When they meat up, the learned why the Beanstar reacted like that; The Beanbean kingdom had already learned about Cackletta's plan and had warned Peach about it, so she replaced herself with a Birdo in disguise, meaning Cackletta had the wrong voice all along. During this, Cackletta and Fawful find Bowser knocked out due to reasons mentioned in his effort-post, and Cackletta possesses him, turning them into Bowletta and becoming more powerful than ever. Peach and the Mario bros reach Littlefungi Town, a town of immigrant toads and Mario gets sick. While Luigi get a cure, Bowletta introduces theirselves and kidnaps Peach, using the Clown Car. They then use her as a bargaining chip, requesting the Mario Bros, to restore the Beanstar and give it to her. They restore it, and they take it to the exchange spot, Jokes End, along with a fake Beanstar and a pair of clothes for Peach in case Peach damaged hers in an attempt to escape. They try to trick Fawful with the fake, but he see right through it and takes the real one, so the Mario bros come up with a plan. After Mario appears and demands Peach back, Bowletta refuses, claiming it's because they tried to trick them, but it's clear they were never going to honour their deal from the beginning. However, Luigi dresses in Peach's extra dress, convinces the duo that the real Peach was an imposter, (and speaks his only lines in the game.) making them dump the real Peach, and grab Luigi. Aboard the Koopa Cruiser, which, while on the verge of falling apart, was still barely working, Bowletta, realizes what's going on, due to Luigi constantly covering his mouth to hide his moustache, but it doesn't matter. Luigi escapes and grabs the Beanstar as well, leaving them in the dust. Fawful suggest pursuing them, but Bowletta has a better idea. They head to Mushroom Kingdom, take over Bowser's castle, as the minions weren't there right now, and head to the Beanbean Kingdom to take over with brute force. When Mario and Luigi try to invade, things vary depending on the version. In the original, Bowletta sicks the Koopalings on them. In the remake, they disguise themselves as Bowser and has Captain Goomba order the minions and the Koopalings to fight Mario taking care of two birds with one stone. While Captain Gooma catches on, it isn't until Mario and Luigi had to fight through the castle and defeat all seven Koopalings. Mario and Luigi, find Bowletta, who commends them for making all the way there. Then tell them that after conquering the Beanbean Kingdom, the Mushroom Kingdom is next. The then fight. After a while, it seems Bowletta has finally, gone down, only for it to be revealed that she faked her defeat to have a timed bob-omb take them out. She then disposes them by swallowing them whole. However, Mario and Luigi are conscious, if just barely, at only 1 HP each. Cackletta's should emerges to finish them off and thus begins the final battle and one of the greatest difficulty spikes in gaming history. This. Fight. Is. Brutal. In the original version, she will probably kill you before you even get a turn due to the aforementioned 1 HP and her high speed stat, and the only truly reliable way to kill her is with the bonkers overpowered Mush Badges, the most OP thing in the series. Mario and Luigi somehow squeeze out a win. Bowletta spits them out, then screams in agony how she could possibly lose as her very soul is destroyed, ending her forever.
Is she Magnificent? Charismatic?
Heres the interesting part. It's true that Cackletta has been outsmarted - twice in fact, in her plan. Peach had hoodwinked her in her plan to steal her voice and Mario and Luigi tricked her by dressing her up as Peach, costing her both the Beanstar and the princess.
However, I think Cackletta more than makes up for it in her sheer Xanatos Speed Chess game. Had the wrong voice and lost the Beanstar? Grab the actual Peach and hold her hostage for it. Lost them again and now both are likely out of your grasp? Let's just go get Bowser's Castle and take over the old-fashioned way. The Mario bros reach the castle and are winning the fight against you? Have a Timed Bob-omb ready to ambush them. She keeps coming back with a more dangerous plan each time, and ALWAYS remains a threat.
Now in the Minions quest, it's revealed she leans slightly more on Fawful than we originally thought, as he was the one to come up with the plan to use a disguise trick the Koopalings and Captain Goomba to go against the Mario bros, but everything else? All her. Including the plans to just grab Bowser's Castle.
Really the biggest possible disqualifier is the the fact that she didn't take her final defeat very well, but I think we can excuse that little slip-up seeing that her very soul was dying.
As for Charisma, Her cackling laugh and her scheming make quite an impact and did I mention the Rocket Chair yet? Not to mention what she truly has going for her; with Smithy never appearing until the very end of his game, Cackletta is THE trend setter of the Eviler than Thou RPG villains the Mario bros would have, and she pulls it off with gusto, always staying ahead of the Mario bros until Peasley finally finds them and always finding new plans.
Is She A Bastard?
Yeah, she is. She causes a lot of trouble for the Mario bros, and a lot of trouble for the Beanbean Kingdom. However, she never does it disgustingly (Hell, after destroying the town, it's right back to normal for nearly the rest of the game.) and has her own bit of humour with there, like the antics with chasing Luigi, or the weirdness that was the Peach Bots.
Conclusion?
I thinks she earned at least an effort post, and I do thinks she qualifies. How about you guys?
Oh this trope is definitely not diet CM, agreed there... hell parts of the two almost imply running contrary to one another. My general feeling is that being a CM is automatically a red flag and merits additional scrutiny. If I'm to draw an analogy it's like buying everything, including houses and cars with physical cash: yes it could be legit but there is sure as shit reason for about ten levels of extra security when brought up.
Yes Hans Gruber and Harry Lime are some of the best examples in film but they are very much the exception, not the rule and that's greatly in part due to performance and emphasis. Would either character be ruined by having a loved one thrown into the mix? No, they could still be cold, detached masterminds. What about if they were bigots, allowed rapes to occur or showed sadistic tendencies? Yes, that would completely repaint them and we'd lose those gems of cinema for what we love about them flies away: make sure the crossover falls in that bin before bothering to talk about them.
Drawing back to my analogy what I'm feeling is: if you do a "crossover" and I later find holes in it, then you basically weren't checking where that cash you bought your home with came from and that's getting pretty damn frustrating to come back to after the number of times we've had this talk.
Y'all have no clue how many there used to be because tropers were doing works from memory at the start of this thread, I'd watch/read/play their work and just go "There is no fucking way you would have done this if you had bothered to double check what you were posting" and I tire of doing the work for people.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Woaaaah, that's a big boy. Gimme a bit to read and vote ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by 43110 on Mar 16th 2021 at 12:47:03 PM
Terror Mask.
I don't really have much to say on CM-MB crossevers, except I concur with Starcrusher and 43. I've never had the pleasure/displeasure?(I don't know) of EPing a crossover. Generally speaking as 43 says they're rare. Thus I think you should note it in your EP if they are an approved CM.
Edit: Crankers could you split that up into folders. Your EPing cackeletta and bowser, correct?
I'll say no for Cackeletta, there's getting outwitted twice and as you say her Villainous Breakdown is pretty bad. And while she recovers she doesn't handle small defeats well. When luigi and mario trick her with the dress she gets very angry. I'm still reading Bowser however.
Edited by jjjj2 on Mar 16th 2021 at 12:51:03 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Could you folderise or split into separate posts for both characters.
Yes to this version of Bowser assuming you and Warthog agreed you'd be covering it, just to make sure there's no fighting. No to Cackeletta though, Smug Snake.
The Moron
Having gotten through Bowser, I'm inclined to say no. It seems that while he gets a few genuine victories, they come at the expense of a whole bunch of losses (even outside of the first two-three games), and with a big side order of Nice Job Fixing It, Villain happening fairly often throughout his journey, overall I'm not quite convinced. Plus, it seems that the few victories he does get are more through brute force than they are from competent planning. Combine all of that with his habit of being played for slapstick and general comedy, especially with things like him and Paper Bowser getting into petty squabbles for power, I'm going with a no.
Confident no to Cackeletta for reasons that j already detailed.
I think the only game Bowser fully hits the criteria is in Dream Team, where he's gone full out Hijacked by Ganon mode. Unfortunately I think he loses it by the time of the next game; as fun as it is seeing Bowser and Paper Bowser working together, I think their plans regress back to standard Bowser-type villainy and, as Star mentions, the fact Bowser is constantly the butt of slapstick makes me think he's cutting it short. No to him, if reluctantly. Cackletta, likewise, is a generic baddie; not an MB.
I will say between this and the fact wr have numerous incarnations of Robotnik up who keep Depending on the Writer, I'm strongly tempted to do an EP on Meta Knight from Kirby—specific to how he was before Sakurai left the series. Meta Knight's basically mellowed out into a full hero in the current day, but the games pre-2004 had him be more morally sketchy; he was playing Trickster Mentor to Kirby as early as the 8-bit games and Revenge of Meta Knight gives him a hell of a chance to show how ruthlessly effective he is as an actual Big Bad. It also helps there's not nearly as much of the poor communication in the earlier games as there are in ones like, say, Squeak Squad.
Edited by Scraggle on Mar 16th 2021 at 11:14:58 AM
Professor Gigachad
Yeah, I have to give a ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
to Bowser as well for Star and Scraggle's reasons as well as the fact I am still not sure he is not too much of a bastard.
With Scraggle's firsthand expertise I'm gonna have to flip to a sad nay on Bowser but as we discussed, I'm totally down for Meta Knight as per the Depending on the Writer case.
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Bowser and Cackletta.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No to Bowser and Cackletta.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Gotta love Jaws!
Abstain leaning no for Bowser and Cackletta.
Shame, this Bowser had sounded promising from what I had heard.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Nay to the Paper Mario candidates.
Okay, so, on the CM-MB Crossover note, and for the sake of being upfront about this, I actually decided to give a few versions of the script a re-read a couple weeks ago and re-listen to We Will Rock You for High Commander Khashoggi, and... okay, I gotta say this guy deserves way more scrutiny than I gave him initially. Now, I have my reasons— namely that I was working off the script I was given when I played the character— and this is a show that has a lot of different variations on its script.
So, okay, Khashoggi in various versions is played very differently. Like with many plays, his character is almost entirely Depending on the Writer. For example, in the original version Khashoggi is delightfully campy, extremely competent, and, to boot, manages to unearth the logistics of the MegaCorp he works for and make a solid argument as to why they are failing. Modern versions cut this out, and what they do from there varies. (For example, in my version of the script, he snarks at his boss to the very last.) However, most of them have him desperately try to cover his ass with Blatant Lies and scrambling toward survival like a Dirty Coward. Most modern productions generally lean this way with the character anyways, with some having stage directions such as him going from smooth to thinly-veiled rage in seconds flat.
What kills Khashoggi for me, though, is that even in the original version where he's otherwise ridiculously competent, he still backpedals and starts complimenting Killer Queen and her "merciful nature" when she's visibly enraged by his "failure," even though he's immediately working to correct it. Now, I'm inclined to cut him some slack on that... KQ is a Psychopathic Womanchild and him trying to talk his way out of it is quick improvising. The issue is that the end result is that his end is completely humiliating. He pisses his Bad Boss off, tries to bullshit his way out of it but gets murdered anyway with no chance to amend his mistake. The worst part of all this is that it spins out of him trying to be proactive and competent and notifying her that he lost the Bohemians and is going to start looking for them again. Having read through at least four scripts now, variations on "Makes one tiny mistake, tries to bullshit his way out, dies humiliatingly" are a consistent detail. I'll fully own up to failing research wise on this one— again, my script was one of many variations and it lacked some punch in this regard, but I should've checked others as well.
The only way I can see this guy staying up is if we specify that it's only in the pre-revamp British script, but even then he still screws up and promptly starts sucking up to KQ, which is arguably mitigating unto itself, and I don't think it'd be worth it when every version afterwards contains a variation on his humiliating defeat. I'm not happy about this at all, both on my end and that of the show— dude's fun, exceptionally competent and IMO his death is him being the victim of the show's bad writing rather than anything in-character— but if he's gotta go he's gotta go. I'm very frustrated with this on multiple ends, including my own, in case you guys can't tell.
So that's my argument to cut Khashoggi. I'm probably gonna be bringing another argument to cut him from CM as well by the end of the week. (He's too Played for Laughs in most scripts). this one with more foundation and evidence than the last.
Sorry about this one, it's 100% on me.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Gaerity, Astrid and Otakemaru.
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"