Wick check please.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I see Fanservice as more of a rationale for this trope than a qualifying part of the definition.
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Personally, when I think of a Kick Chick, fanservice never comes to mind. If it's denoted as a requirement, I suggest that we edit the description to accomodate the examples without it.
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No, the other one.
I think the trope is mainly about how women are more likely than men to use their legs and feet in combat to a greater extent, and that women are relatively likely to be kick-centric in the first place, as opposed to punch-centric, or even more balanced. Something to do with how punches are considered more about raw (upper body) power, while kicking is something you don't need to be particularly strong to do, since even a weak (but fit enough to fight) person would have a bit of leg muscle.
As such I don't see the problem mentioned in OP, which leads to a thread without a point.
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AnotherDuck, I agree with your reasoning. But! Read the trope's description. It explicitly states that it's about a woman who specializes in kick because it lets the creators show off her legs. So I think the description needs to be fixed to mention this as an optional criteria, not a necessary one.
No, the other one.
Fair enough; I interpreted that as not strictly required.
edited 6th Aug '15 7:04:27 PM by AnotherDuck
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That's a bad habit, and it causes trope decay.
Tropes Are Not Narrow does not mean that you can exclude criteria at random.
edited 6th Aug '15 7:25:09 PM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Yeah I agree. Its not required but they do gotta at least try and show them off, like wearing short shorts or make comments about it.
Like Tales Of Hearts. Kohaku is a Kick Chick and they make a bunch comments about her legs and such, yet the original version was a sprite based game no real fanservice as its a sprite game
◊ which changes in the remake which has actual models
.
edited 6th Aug '15 8:02:32 PM by Memers
No, the other one.
True, but that doesn't apply to the post you pointed at.
So, my position is that this trope should be broadened into an Aggregate Trope meaning "female martial artists are more likely to specialize in leg attacks than male ones". Using it for Fanservice is only one possible use of that trope, it needs to be mentioned in the description but shouldn't overtake the whole trope.
One reason is that the current description correctly lists some other possible reasons for why many female characters are kick-oriented... and then just says "ah nevermind, it's all just for Fanservice". It basically contradicts itself, in an All Media Creators Are Perverts way. E.g. the example list features Iji, a game where the female character does have long and strong legs and specializes in kicking (when not using her guns). Is this also done for Fanservice? Oh yeah, dem sexy pixels, bro!
edited 7th Aug '15 3:40:29 AM by Rjinswand
It was meant specifically at the post I pointed at, Duck. You were the one who invoked Tropes Are Not Narrow to dismiss trope criteria.
As for that one, I can think of far more martial artist women in media who aren't a Kick Chick than those who are, so unfortunately, reality means that would be an impossible redefinition. Women in fighting games are just as likely to be fist focused brawlers, or a balanced mix of kicks and punches. This trope is not the majority representation. It's just a representation.
As for there being more leg focused women than men, also not true. We just honestly don't really pay attention to the men as a trope because no one went to go look at them. They're both small segments of a larger one. Women are just already a smaller segment which makes patterns stand out a little stronger when all the characters of a gender don't blur together.
Just look at Extremity Extremist.
edited 7th Aug '15 7:12:50 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Should probably put the wick check on the 1st post
edited 7th Aug '15 7:43:28 AM by captainpat
No, the other one.
You have a point! But then, it means it's just not a trope at all.
Showing off a character's legs for fanservice is already covered by Show Some Leg. Specializing in leg attacks is (as you mentioned) covered by Extremity Extremist. And the current wick check shows that examples of the current definition are very few anyway.
Why do we even need this trope then? Cut.
edited 9th Aug '15 4:12:28 AM by Rjinswand
I don't think any trope covers a majority representation. Just a for whatever reason noteworthy recurring representation. Most chests dont ahve a Chest Monster inside for example.
Similarly if you dismiss Kick Chick by saying there are plenty of male examples, then you also have to dismiss Guys Smash, Girls Shoot, because there are plenty of female brawlers and male gunners.
There was a YKTTW about this a while ago: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=2njbb3cp2525dqk4l3b9xtoq
I'd also hazard a guess that the reason there seem to be just as many male kickers as female in Extremity Extremist is because most female examples were added to the subtrope instead.
edited 9th Aug '15 9:51:48 AM by acrobox
Why not soft split it so one section covers examples where it's used for fanservice, while the other covers examples without fanservice (like Summon to Hand does)?
edited 3rd Oct '15 1:11:23 PM by MiinU
Ok, but why do you think "Female Extremity Extremist" to be a noteworthy representation? Isn't it just But More Specific?
Men Fight Women Shoot is much more common than the inverse. If we did have proof that kicking women are much more common than punching women, then I'd support this. But it seems to not be the case here.
The fanservice part is already covered by Shes Got Legs note , though.
And the distinction between the two lists you proposed might prove too subjective to discern, seeing as this trope as it is already lists Iji and Applejack as examples.
edited 3rd Oct '15 2:26:23 PM by Rjinswand
It's more like it is an excuse to show off Shes Got Legs, most notably Kick Chick will usually be in short shorts and such while guys who kick typically have Bruce Lee pants it gets treated quite differently. Also Extremity Extremist is not limited to kicking in addition to the name being really REALLY stupid as well as underused.
Breaking up Extremity Extremist would be the best way to go IMO with a trope specifically focusing on kicking fighting styles such as Savate and how they are commonly used by girls used for Fanservice via short shorts / Modesty Shorts and guys wear pants since a guy's legs are not sexy. Then have another one for punches, which is FAR more common for guys in media.
edited 3rd Oct '15 2:50:10 PM by Memers
Hmm... I'm not sure that punching guys are more common than punching girls, but I sure can get behind the idea of splitting Extermity Extremist into Punch Specialist and Kick Specialist.
The presence of Shes Got Legs in female Kick Specialist design can be just mentioned in the description of Kick Specialist.
edited 3rd Oct '15 2:51:04 PM by Rjinswand
Except Shes Got Legs has nothing to do with 'female who fights using her legs'. It's just: 'that woman's legs are gorgeous'. And Extremity Extremist covers use of the arms and legs. So Kick Chick is a justifiable subtrope, since it's specifically about females whose primary means of fighting emphasises use of kicks.
Put it this way: how many female characters can you name offhand, who favor pugilistic styles? 'cuz the only ones that come to my mind are Vanessa (female boxer) from The King of Fighters and Kuro, from Kurokami.
Every other female character I can think of either favors kicks, or uses their arms and legs equally (ex. Tifa Lockhart, Korra, etc.) - assuming they're not using weapons, magic, or summons.
edited 3rd Oct '15 3:16:42 PM by MiinU
And guys who punch also usually aren't averse to kicking.
edited 3rd Oct '15 3:06:27 PM by Rjinswand
I just want to note that Kick Chick is also not exclusively a kick only fighter, it's their primary means of offense but not exclusively so.
Take Kohaku in Tales Of Hearts, sure she can light her baton on fire and swing with it as well as use wind spells but pretty much everything else is kicks, all that is ever talked about is her kicks which are said to cause avalanches and her wanted poster says 'she kicks like a mule'. There is also talk about her legs and how she is always showing them off via her kicks, which has another female party member jealous, not something the camera ever gazes on since it is a Sprite game on the DS.
Right now Extremity Extremist is exclusively uses it, a lot just can't use anything else via a handicap, vs just being really good at it and prefers using it over other things. It's something a specialist trope would be able to clarify.
edited 3rd Oct '15 3:32:41 PM by Memers
Okay then maybe the best course of action then would be to leave Extremity Extremist as it is (but only for 100% exclusive punch/kick specialization), while creating new tropes for Punch Specialist and Kick Specialist?
Judging by the example section this trope is being massively misused.
It's supposed to be about a a female character who's fighting style relies primarily kicks. Which is used to show off her legs and fanservice.
Instead it's just being used for any female character with a kick-centric fighting style with no mention of the fanservicey element.
Edit:
Wick check results (51 wicks out of 683 total):
Zero Context Entries (11)
kick-centric fighting style (37)
kick-centric fighting style used as fanservice (3)
edited 7th Aug '15 7:43:53 AM by captainpat