What's disappointing is the villain is just a racist nutter who wants the blow up the world. The truly great villain is the one that talks sense.
So the villain and hero are having another therapy session
and begin getting on the topic of the current conflict of the story. The hero is about to mention or is already explaining why the villain fails at life
. But then something happens that the band of heroes didnít expect. The villain begins presenting an argument...and people are agreeing with him
Usually found in more cynical works in the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism
, the villain is shown exchanging words with the band of heroes that cannot be ignored
. He isnít toying with them
or telling them technical truths for selfish motivations
. Hannibal, indeed, is trying to make a point.
This isnít to say that Good Is Dumb
. For unlike Breaking Them by Talking
, this trope isn't meant to tear down the hero to show how pathetic they are. Itís merely there to show that throughout all the encounters good and evil have with each other in a story, one exchange of dialogue from the dark side is reasonable. It may make more sense than how the good guys are going about an issue. This may even result in a Face-Heel Turn
from one of the heroes after hearing the villainís side of the story.
This trope is usually found in (very likely to be philosophical) works to show that not everything is black and white in morality
and will make the viewer question where the line of Moral Event Horizon
begins. An example of this is the Armor-Piercing Question
, What Is Evil?
In order to qualify, the character must
be a villain. It doesnít particularly matter when they turn to the dark side, but they must already be a villain in order to present this type of reasoning. Any type of villain can qualify. But they cannot
or on a neutral side, since this would eliminate the special kind of conflict this trope invokes.
Compare with Strawman Has a Point
, its Sister Trope
. Strawman Has a Point
happens when an author unintentionally
sets up the villain to have more legitimate arguments for his actions than the hero makes him out to be, and thus a product of bad writing; while Hannibal Has a Point occurs when the villain is purposefully meant to be stating sensible points for his motives that take the hero by surprise. Someone might come out and say that the villain has a point, but the context of the story might allude strongly enough to this trope as well. Actions of the other characters reacting to the villains' argument must be noted if it is the latter. Related to The Extremist Was Right
, which is what happens when the villain is so right, well... it works. See also Jerkass Has a Point
Anime and Manga
- A double subversion played with Paptimus Scirocco from Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam by stating that while he knows his methods are extreme and that his ideal world will have very few people in power, that having people freely do what ever they please has been the cause of such horrendous bloodshed. And having more gifted people in power will lead to Utopia Justifies the Means. The only two people in the room listening to this are Haman and Char. Char at the time tells him to shut up. However, Charís ideals in Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack mimic Sciroccoís in a way thatís a little too close for comfort.
- Weiss Kreuz. Reiji Takatori is the Big Bad of the TV series, and antagonizes Weiss and their boss Persia aka his brother Shuiichi. However, in a certain confrontation, he brings up a valid point in regards to their subordinates (which in Reiji's case, are his own sons Hirofumi and Masafumi), summed up as this: "You tell ME I use my sons to my advantage?! Look at the way you treat your four subordinates, you hypocrite! Specially the little guy whom you thought he was my kid... and who happens to be YOUR illegitimate son!" And then he kills Persia.
- Fullmetal Alchemist Solf J. Kimblee's speech to Roy Mustang and Riza Hawkeye during the Ishbalan war causes the two to stop trying to dodge responsibility for their actions, remember the faces of those they've killed, and try to change things for the better later on.
- X-Men villain Magneto regularly points out the futility of humans and mutants living together in peace. Considering how many Evil Plans humans and mutants have launched at each other over the course of the series, it's hard to argue with the guy.
- In Watchmen, Ozymandias is at first pegged as a monster for creating a weapon that will kill millions of innocent people and blaming it on Dr. Manhattan. After he explains his reasoning with Dr. Manhattan that by killing millions during such dark times, he will save billions because everyone will become united to solve this issue rather than trying to rip each other apart, Dr. Manhattan points out to the band of heroes that heís right.
- The Dark Knight: This seems to be part of the draw to The Joker's character. He may be chaotic and does things For the Evulz, but proves to be accurate in his assessments of certain people, such as Harvey Dent and Lau. He does, however, misjudge the characters of two entire boatfuls of people, including one that was full of criminals.
- The Hunger Games has this in the third book. President Snow explains to Katniss that he could not have sent the bomber to kill Prim because he would have used it to escape in such a hopeless situation. It would be out of character for him not to. And only one other person could have had hovercrafts...
- Sultan Mehmed of Count and Countess may be the Designated Villain who conscripts Child Soldiers and destroys Catholic churches for kicks, but he's got more common sense than the titular characters put together. Vlad realizes this at one point and gets annoyed.
- Nicodemus's crimes are so repulsive both on and offscreen they could take up an entry on their own. He also makes some very good points about the Black Council and Red Court while proposing an alliance that Harry has trouble arguing with. Harry still rejects Nicodemus, but it's not as easy as he thought it'd be.
- The Rifter: Laurie accusing John of being controlling toward "his kingdom" that heís the god of. This is something that John tends to worry about himself. Itís true that thereís danger in a country depending on a single ruler — an immortal one at that! — however well-intentioned (and John is a something like a paragon of liberal American values and environmental responsibility). John tries to be as non-interventionary as possible, sets up democratic institutions, and forbids people from worshipping him, but they do anyway... Laurie always did know John well, and sheís very good at getting past his defenses saying things that remind him of his weaknesses.
- The Witch of Into the Woods has this effect on the characters; regardless of whether they say so aloud, they are visibly humbled by the "The Reason You Suck" Speech that is "Last Midnight", in which she calls them out on the fact that their wishes and carelessness got them in the trouble they're in now.
- Arcanum establishes Arronax in actuality, Kerghan impersonating Arronax as nothing short of an Omnicidal Maniac. Yet, despite this extreme position, when you get to hear his argument, Kerghan's logic make perfect sense. In the world of Arcanum, the world after death is one of peace and bliss, and the dead find returning to the living world physically painful precisely because in comparison to the afterlife life is pain. There is a certain sense, then, in doing the living world a favor by killing everyone and sending them to a happier place. One party member who has experienced death even confirms what Kerghan has to say, even if he objects to his conclusions and methods.
- Assassin's Creed III LOVES this trope. Almost every major templar you kill will lecture to Connor at length as they're dying about how they were only trying to maintain order and peace and Connor has just royally screwed it up by killing them and/or calling Connor out on how naive he is.
- Achilles, leader of the titular superhero team in the Global Guardians PBEM Universe, goes to his father for advice on his personal life all the time. His father, by the way, is Lord Doom, one of the setting's world-conquering master villains. This is a slightly inverted example, though, because usually Achilles is the blunt antagonistic one (for a hero), and Lord Doom is generally urbane and polite (for a villain).
- The Nostalgia Chick's Dark Nella Saga coupled this with What Measure Is a Non-Human?. The titular Big Bad (formerly an abused BFF) lets every one of the jerkass characters have it, the Chick herself getting the most tearing down, but it turns out Dark Nella was a clone and the original Nella trapped under the sea, so the show can carry on being a Played for Laughs Dysfunction Junction.
- Justice League:
- First, the episode "A Better World". We have the Justice Lords,the Evil/Totalitarian Counterpart to the Justice League, who took over the world and turned it into a totalitarian state after their President Lex Luthor murdered the Flash. They deal with crime by lobotomizing their villains. When the two versions of Batman confront each other, they have a discussion on the virtues of democracy:
Lord Batman: Think about it. A world where there's no crime, no victims, no pain.
League Batman: And no choice. Who elected you, anyway?
Lord Batman: Who elected you? The problem with democracy is it doesn't keep you very safe.
League Batman: It has other virtues, but you seem to have forgotten them.
Lord Batman: I didn't forget. I just chose peace and security instead.
League Batman: You grabbed power!
League Batman: [emerges from the shadows, dropping his batarang] You win.
- Notable in that this effect happened to the writers. Originally, League Batman was supposed to win the argument and the fight, but when they wrote that last line for Lord Batman, they couldn't come up with a response, so rewrote the scene accordingly. Eventually, they later had a scene where a man is beaten for making a scene complaining about crummy service at a restaurant to showcase the cost of this world.
- Later, in Justice League Unlimited, this happens to Bats again. He confronts Amanda Waller, the head of Project Cadmus, a secret government agency that had been opposing the League. Batman tells Waller that the League will take down Cadmus if they pose a threat to the world. Waller shoots him down, telling him Cadmus exists as a way to stop the League from threatening the world—after all, an alternate League dethroned the world's government with only seven members, and the Unlimited League has a whole army of supers, as well as a giant fusion cannon hovering over the world and pointing down. That said, Waller doesn't say what would prevent Cadmus from doing the same thing. note
- Amon from The Legend of Korra is The Leader of The Equalists, who are tired of benders oppressing nonbenders. He seems full of it until you realize that benders do oppress nonbenders. The Triads that trouble the shops are made up entirely of benders, the ruling council of Republic City is comprised entirely of benders (the four member air nomads have more representation on it than a city of muggles), and a lot of the good jobs are available only to benders.