History Main / VillainHasAPoint

9th Jun '18 1:45:56 AM infernape612
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* In ''VideoGame/Persona5'', while the villains/targets are ultimately responsible for their own actions, they do bring up a good point that the rigid Japanese society's flaws are to partly blame for the way they turned out, such as the public's mistreatment towards the poor (Madarame, Kaneshiro, Okumaru), the stress due to people's high expectations (Kamoshida), undeserving blame for those looking for a scapegoat ([[spoiler: Futaba]]), sexist discrimination in a male-dominated workplace ([[spoiler: Sae]]), the stigma of being an illegitimate child ([[spoiler: Akechi]]), believing that they need to preserve themselves and a chosen few in a continuously declining society ([[spoiler: Shido]]).

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* In ''VideoGame/Persona5'', while the villains/targets are ultimately responsible for their own actions, they do bring up a good point that the rigid Japanese society's flaws are to partly blame for the way they turned out, such as the public's mistreatment towards the poor (Madarame, Kaneshiro, Okumaru), the stress due to people's high expectations (Kamoshida), undeserving blame for those looking for a scapegoat ([[spoiler: Futaba]]), ([[spoiler:Futaba]]), sexist discrimination in a male-dominated workplace ([[spoiler: Sae]]), ([[spoiler:Sae]]), the stigma of being an illegitimate child ([[spoiler: Akechi]]), believing ([[spoiler:Akechi]]), or the belief that they need to preserve themselves and a chosen few in a continuously declining society ([[spoiler: Shido]]).([[spoiler:Shido]]).
9th Jun '18 1:44:41 AM infernape612
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* ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedRogue'' further backs Haytham's point. Showing that the Assassin's ideals of absolute freedom for everyone ultimately leads to anarchy and lawlessness. While the Templar's desire for power and control is ultimately to spread order and stability. The Assassins are also shown to be just as ruthless as the Templars they oppose as well, targeting innocent people for simply writing articles calling attention to their actions or getting in the way of their agendas.

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* ''VideoGame/AssassinsCreedRogue'' further backs Haytham's point. Showing It shows that the Assassin's ideals of absolute freedom for everyone ultimately leads to anarchy and lawlessness. While lawlessness while the Templar's desire for power and control is ultimately to spread order and stability. The Assassins are also shown to be just as ruthless as the Templars they oppose as well, targeting innocent people for simply writing articles calling attention to their actions or getting in the way of their agendas.



* Perhaps most surprisingly, a ''[[VideoGame/PokemonSunAndMoon Pokémon]]'' villain delivers one of these to the player. [[spoiler: Lillie proceeds to yell at Lusamine that people and Pokémon are not things to be collected. Lusamine promptly tells her that that's ''exactly'' what a trainer does, even going to say that a trainer will remove Pokémon from their party to replace with others.]] They're not incorrect in that regard - the player most likely did ''exactly'' that.

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* Perhaps most surprisingly, a ''[[VideoGame/PokemonSunAndMoon Pokémon]]'' ''Pokémon'' villain delivers one of these to the player.player in ''VideoGame/PokemonSunAndMoon''. [[spoiler: Lillie proceeds to yell at Lusamine that people and Pokémon are not things to be collected. Lusamine promptly tells her that that's ''exactly'' what a trainer does, even going to say that a trainer will remove Pokémon from their party to replace with others.]] They're not incorrect in that regard - the player most likely did ''exactly'' that.



** One of his radio messages in ''VideoGame/FarCry4'' has him gloat about robbing and hoarding Kyrati treasures to sell off for personal gain, with members of the Golden Path lamenting that they are "losing a piece of their heritage with every treasure Min sells". This is true, heritage is very important, and Min ''is'' using the money for entirely selfish things, but he justifies doing so over the radio in a way that's ''very'' hard to refute:
--> '''Pagan Min''': The Golden Path says I stole its wealth, but I did no such thing! They robbed themselves for centuries instead of putting it to good use! There's a lesson for you, Ajay. People are hypocrites, and they all want someone to blame for their shit-filled lives, they never want to accept their share of the responsibility. The next time they're whining about building schools or clinics, remember they've been hiding away their fortune in dusty old monasteries for centuries!

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** One of his radio messages in ''VideoGame/FarCry4'' has him gloat about robbing and hoarding Kyrati treasures to sell off for personal gain, with members of the Golden Path lamenting that they are "losing a piece of their heritage with every treasure Min sells". This is true, heritage is very important, and Min ''is'' using the money for entirely selfish things, but he justifies doing so over the radio in a way that's ''very'' hard to refute:
--> ---> '''Pagan Min''': The Golden Path says I stole its wealth, but I did no such thing! They robbed themselves for centuries instead of putting it to good use! There's a lesson for you, Ajay. People are hypocrites, and they all want someone to blame for their shit-filled lives, they never want to accept their share of the responsibility. The next time they're whining about building schools or clinics, remember they've been hiding away their fortune in dusty old monasteries for centuries!
9th Jun '18 1:39:57 AM infernape612
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--->'''Joker''': "I ''hate'' it when you make sense!"

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--->'''Joker''': "I I ''hate'' it when you make sense!"sense!



-->'''Bill''': I mean, who would sacrifice everything they've worked for just for their dumb sibling?
-->'''Mabel''': ''[[HeroicWillpower ...Dipper would.]]''

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-->'''Bill''': I mean, who would sacrifice everything they've worked for just for their dumb sibling?
-->'''Mabel''':
sibling?\\
'''Mabel''':
''[[HeroicWillpower ...Dipper would.]]''



--> '''Neighsay:''' Irresponsible teachers, students skipping class, endangering ponies! Your school is a disaster.

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--> ---> '''Neighsay:''' Irresponsible teachers, students skipping class, endangering ponies! Your school is a disaster.
7th Jun '18 1:24:03 PM MagBas
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*** Undercut by the Turians, who are completely and utterly willing to help out, the only thing holding them back is the fact that their home systems are being overrun and their chain-of-command has been thrown into chaos, with the first mission for them being to track down and rescue their new Primarch, who is currently leading his men on the frontlines. To give an idea how bad things are, he has no idea he is the new Primarch until you arrive, and is quite surprised, because he was rather far down the [[UnexpectedSuccesor line of succession]], and is only in command because ''everyone above him is dead''.



*** Though this is somewhat undercut by that fact that the game has shown ''numerous'' examples of how studying Reaper tech is a ''very bad idea''. [[spoiler: Come ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'', it's shown that letting Cerberus study the Reaper base is a ''very bad idea'']].
7th Jun '18 11:36:03 AM dracogeorge
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Added DiffLines:

*** Undercut by the Turians, who are completely and utterly willing to help out, the only thing holding them back is the fact that their home systems are being overrun and their chain-of-command has been thrown into chaos, with the first mission for them being to track down and rescue their new Primarch, who is currently leading his men on the frontlines. To give an idea how bad things are, he has no idea he is the new Primarch until you arrive, and is quite surprised, because he was rather far down the [[UnexpectedSuccesor line of succession]], and is only in command because ''everyone above him is dead''.


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*** Though this is somewhat undercut by that fact that the game has shown ''numerous'' examples of how studying Reaper tech is a ''very bad idea''. [[spoiler: Come ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'', it's shown that letting Cerberus study the Reaper base is a ''very bad idea'']].
3rd Jun '18 3:17:42 PM Ferot_Dreadnaught
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* In ''Disney/AtlantisTheLostEmpire'', the rest of the expedition [[LockedOutOfTheLoop sans]] [[TokenGoodTeammate Milo]] were perfectly okay with robbing the Atlanteans of their treasure at gunpoint [[EvenEvilHasStandards up until the point Rourke actually started killing people.]] But they never ''once'' thought that might end in violence?
3rd Jun '18 3:11:46 PM Premonition45
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Added DiffLines:

* In ''Disney/AtlantisTheLostEmpire'', the rest of the expedition [[LockedOutOfTheLoop sans]] [[TokenGoodTeammate Milo]] were perfectly okay with robbing the Atlanteans of their treasure at gunpoint [[EvenEvilHasStandards up until the point Rourke actually started killing people.]] But they never ''once'' thought that might end in violence?
31st May '18 6:15:24 PM infernape612
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* "Wallstreet" from ''Film/TheTransporter'' counters with one of these when Frank holds him at gunpoint and demands to know why the planted a bomb in his car to kill him. Wallstreet's response hit's Frank hard enough to make the gun tremble:

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* "Wallstreet" from ''Film/TheTransporter'' counters with one of these when Frank holds him at gunpoint and demands to know why the he planted a bomb in his car to kill him. Wallstreet's response hit's hits Frank hard enough to make the gun tremble:
31st May '18 6:14:35 PM infernape612
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* In ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/AttackOfTheClones'' Count Dooku tries to get Obi-Wan to [[WeCanRuleTogether join him]] by claiming the Republic is beyond saving and needs to be replaced, that it's so corrupt a Sith Lord has been able to seize control of it entirely. While him being said Sith Lord's apprentice ruins his argument somewhat (Republic's corruption mostly come from said Sith Lord and the trade federation might not have went through their war without his back up), he does have a point; the Republic by this time is incapable of preserving law and order even on the more civilized planets, {{Mega Corp}}s have ''legal'' private armies, and most Senators are more interested in preserving their wealth and power than in actually helping their constituents. In the old EU he's ultimately proven right, as the New Republic established after the fall of Palpatine's Empire focuses more on restoring the spirit of the Old Republic instead of just its bureaucracy; in the new Disney universe the restored republic is just as bad as its predecessor. [[spoiler: In the span of just a few decades, the New Republic falls to the First Order, although it isn't clear to what extent this can be blamed on the leaders of the Republic.]]
* While Lando Calrissian isn't really a villain in ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'', the heroes certainly treat him like one for selling out his friend Han to the Empire. But, as Lando himself says, [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no choice but to cooperate]]. Vader explicitly threatens the people of Cloud City, which he administrates. From a deontological perspective, his responsibility is to protect them over the long-estranged friend who he hasn't seen for years and who showed up at his doorstep without warning. Since Vader only needs the Falcon crew to set a trap for Luke, Lando bargains with Vader for the freedom of Leia and Chewie, at significant risk to his own life and people, and is rejected. Then he pulls out all the stops to help rescue Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke, and they almost manage to save Han, but what does he get in return? A choke from Chewie and a verbal beatdown from Leia before he can explain the situation. He even takes the time to visit Han and Leia in their cell after they were tortured to make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and gets punched in the face for his troubles. [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi It all turns out ok for him in the end though.]]

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* In ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/AttackOfTheClones'' Count Dooku tries to get Obi-Wan to [[WeCanRuleTogether join him]] by claiming the Republic is beyond saving and needs to be replaced, that it's so corrupt a Sith Lord has been able to seize control of it entirely. While him being said Sith Lord's apprentice ruins his argument somewhat (Republic's corruption mostly come comes from said Sith Lord and the trade federation Trade Federation might not have went through their war without his back up), he does have a point; the Republic by this time is incapable of preserving law and order even on the more civilized planets, {{Mega Corp}}s have ''legal'' private armies, and most Senators are more interested in preserving their wealth and power than in actually helping their constituents. In the old EU he's ultimately proven right, as the New Republic established after the fall of Palpatine's Empire focuses more on restoring the spirit of the Old Republic instead of just its bureaucracy; in the new Disney universe the restored republic Republic is just as bad as its predecessor. [[spoiler: In the span of just a few decades, the New Republic falls to the First Order, although it isn't clear to what extent this can be blamed on the leaders of the Republic.]]
* While Lando Calrissian isn't really a villain in ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'', the heroes certainly treat him like one for selling out his friend Han to the Empire. But, as Lando himself says, [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no choice but to cooperate]]. Vader explicitly threatens the people of Cloud City, which he administrates. From a deontological perspective, his responsibility is to protect them over the long-estranged friend who he hasn't seen for years and who showed up at his doorstep without warning. Since Vader only needs the Falcon crew to set a trap for Luke, Lando bargains with Vader for the freedom of Leia and Chewie, at significant risk to his own life and people, and is rejected. Then he pulls out all the stops to help rescue Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke, and they almost manage to save Han, but what does he get in return? A choke from Chewie and a verbal beatdown from Leia before he can explain the situation. He even takes the time to visit Han and Leia in their cell after they were tortured to make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and gets punched in the face for his troubles. [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi It all turns out ok okay for him in the end though.]]
** ''Film/{{Solo}}'' reveals that Lando and Han weren't even that close; over the course of the film, his association with Han leads to [[spoiler:his copilot dying, him nearly getting killed thirty times, and his beloved ship nearly getting blown up with him on it. After all that, he deserts Han in his hour of need, and Han pays him back by winning his ship in a game of cards.
]] After all that, it's no wonder Lando puts Cloud City before Han.
19th May '18 1:55:29 PM infernape612
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* Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse:

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* Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse:''Franchise/MarvelCinematicUniverse'':



** Hela the BigBad of ''Film/ThorRagnarok'' wants to take over Asgard and conquer everything in sight. While her would be followers scoff at her, Asgard only became so powerful and influential because she and Odin already did it once before. With Odin having been a warmonger before becoming the benevolent king everyone knows him as now. [[WrittenByTheWinners Changing history to make himself and Asgard look better]], removing all evidence of the war. Going as far as to move all the Asgardian warriors who died from their honored halls to a dark crypt to be forgotten. While he was right to imprison Hela when her desire for conquest grew insatiable, it was he who set her down that path by waging war on the other realms and making her DaddysLittleVillain in the first place. Despite her megalomania all her arguments are fairly justified.
*** Surtur the Fire Demon makes it clear that he wishes for nothing more than to destroy Asgard and everyone in it. But he ''is'' prophesied to do so during Ragnarok, making it pretty much his job. [[spoiler:This ends up being a good thing in the end. As destroying Asgard is the only way to stop Hela. Making it a tragic but ultimately necessary sacrifice.]]

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** Hela the BigBad of ''Film/ThorRagnarok'' wants to take over Asgard and conquer everything in sight. While her would be followers scoff at her, Asgard only became so powerful and influential because she and Odin already did it once before. With Odin having been was a warmonger before becoming the benevolent king everyone knows him as now. [[WrittenByTheWinners Changing He changed history to make himself and Asgard look better]], removing all evidence of the war. Going and went as far as to move all the Asgardian warriors who died from their honored halls to a dark crypt to be forgotten. While he was right to imprison Hela when her desire for conquest grew insatiable, it was he who set her down that path by waging war on the other realms and making her DaddysLittleVillain in the first place. Despite her megalomania all her arguments are fairly justified.
*** Surtur the Fire Demon makes it clear that he wishes for nothing more than to destroy Asgard and everyone in it. But he ''is'' prophesied to do so during Ragnarok, making it pretty much his job. [[spoiler:This ends up being a good thing in the end. As end, as destroying Asgard is the only way to stop Hela. Making Hela, making it a tragic but ultimately necessary sacrifice.]]



* In ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/AttackOfTheClones'' Count Dooku tries to get Obi-Wan to [[WeCanRuleTogether join him]] by claiming the Republic is beyond saving and needs to be replaced, that it's so corrupt a Sith Lord has been able to seize control of it entirely. While him being said Sith Lord's apprentice ruins his argument somewhat (Republic's corruption mostly come from said Sith Lord and the trade federation might not have went through their war without his back up), he does have a point; the Republic by this time is incapable of preserving law and order even on the more civilized planets, {{Mega Corp}}s have ''legal'' private armies, and most Senators are more interested in preserving their wealth and power than in actually helping their constituents. In the old EU he's ultimately proven right, as the New Republic established after the fall of Palpatine's Empire focuses more on restoring the spirit of the Old Republic instead of just its bureaucracy; in the new Disney universe the restored republic is just as bad as it's predecessor. [[spoiler: In the span of just a few decades, the New Republic falls to the First Order, although it isn't clear to what extent this can be blamed on the leaders of the Republic.]]
* While Lando Calrissian isn't really a villain in ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'', the heroes certainly treat him like one for selling out his friend Han to the Empire. But, as Lando himself says, [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no choice but to cooperate.]] Vader explicitly threatens the people of Cloud City, which he administrates. From a deontological perspective, his responsibility is to protect them over the long-estranged friend who he hasn't seen for years and who showed up at his doorstep without warning. Since Vader only needs the Falcon crew to set a trap for Luke, Lando bargains with Vader for the freedom of Leia and Chewie, at significant risk to his own life and people, and is rejected. Then he pulls out all the stops to help rescue Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke, and they almost manage to save Han, but what does he get in return? A choke from Chewie and a verbal beatdown from Leia before he can explain the situation. He even takes the time to visit Han and Leia in their cell after they were tortured to make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and gets punched in the face for his troubles. [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi It all turns out ok for him in the end though.]]
* Franchise/StarWars does it again in ''Film/TheLastJedi'': As screwed up as Kylo Ren is, he's got several good points. [[spoiler: One, his uncle ''did'', albeit briefly, consider killing him before he actually did anything wrong. Second, Leia's Resistance is a ragtag bunch with very little chance of surviving at this point. Thirdly, the Jedi and the Sith ''did'' a lot of epic screwing up the galaxy and if he could get Rey on board, they'd have a chance to [[WeCanRuleTogether rule the First Order together]], ''and'' TakeAThirdOption aside from the galaxy-ruining dogma of Jedi and Sith. [[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords Kreia would approve.]] ]]

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* In ''Franchise/StarWars: Film/AttackOfTheClones'' Count Dooku tries to get Obi-Wan to [[WeCanRuleTogether join him]] by claiming the Republic is beyond saving and needs to be replaced, that it's so corrupt a Sith Lord has been able to seize control of it entirely. While him being said Sith Lord's apprentice ruins his argument somewhat (Republic's corruption mostly come from said Sith Lord and the trade federation might not have went through their war without his back up), he does have a point; the Republic by this time is incapable of preserving law and order even on the more civilized planets, {{Mega Corp}}s have ''legal'' private armies, and most Senators are more interested in preserving their wealth and power than in actually helping their constituents. In the old EU he's ultimately proven right, as the New Republic established after the fall of Palpatine's Empire focuses more on restoring the spirit of the Old Republic instead of just its bureaucracy; in the new Disney universe the restored republic is just as bad as it's its predecessor. [[spoiler: In the span of just a few decades, the New Republic falls to the First Order, although it isn't clear to what extent this can be blamed on the leaders of the Republic.]]
* While Lando Calrissian isn't really a villain in ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'', the heroes certainly treat him like one for selling out his friend Han to the Empire. But, as Lando himself says, [[IDidWhatIHadToDo he had no choice but to cooperate.]] cooperate]]. Vader explicitly threatens the people of Cloud City, which he administrates. From a deontological perspective, his responsibility is to protect them over the long-estranged friend who he hasn't seen for years and who showed up at his doorstep without warning. Since Vader only needs the Falcon crew to set a trap for Luke, Lando bargains with Vader for the freedom of Leia and Chewie, at significant risk to his own life and people, and is rejected. Then he pulls out all the stops to help rescue Leia, Chewie, and eventually Luke, and they almost manage to save Han, but what does he get in return? A choke from Chewie and a verbal beatdown from Leia before he can explain the situation. He even takes the time to visit Han and Leia in their cell after they were tortured to make sure they're as comfortable as possible, and gets punched in the face for his troubles. [[Film/ReturnOfTheJedi It all turns out ok for him in the end though.]]
* Franchise/StarWars ''Franchise/StarWars'' does it again in ''Film/TheLastJedi'': As screwed up as Kylo Ren is, he's got several good points. [[spoiler: One, his uncle ''did'', albeit briefly, consider killing him before he actually did anything wrong. Second, Leia's Resistance is a ragtag bunch with very little chance of surviving at this point. Thirdly, the Jedi and the Sith ''did'' a lot of epic screwing up the galaxy and if he could get Rey on board, they'd have a chance to [[WeCanRuleTogether rule the First Order together]], ''and'' TakeAThirdOption aside from the galaxy-ruining dogma of Jedi and Sith. [[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublicIITheSithLords Kreia would approve.]] ]]



* ''{{Film/Tomorrowland}}'': Governor Nix delivers [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sZnphH7L80 this]] rather convincing speech about humanity's acceptance of the end of the world.
* ''{{Film/Surrogates}}'': Lionel Canter might be resorting to extreme measures to make his point about the 'need' to restore humanity to its roots rather than living virtually through remote-controlled robots, but at the end protagonist Tom Greer acknowledges his point to the extent that he deliberately avoids taking action to save the surrogates from Cantor's planned attack, even if he prevents Cantor's plan from being fatal to all those connected to their surrogates while simply shutting down the controlling network.

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* ''{{Film/Tomorrowland}}'': ''Film/{{Tomorrowland}}'': Governor Nix delivers [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sZnphH7L80 this]] rather convincing speech about humanity's acceptance of the end of the world.
* ''{{Film/Surrogates}}'': ''Film/{{Surrogates}}'': Lionel Canter might be resorting to extreme measures to make his point about the 'need' to restore humanity to its roots rather than living virtually through remote-controlled robots, but at the end protagonist Tom Greer acknowledges his point to the extent that he deliberately avoids taking action to save the surrogates from Cantor's planned attack, even if he prevents Cantor's plan from being fatal to all those connected to their surrogates while simply shutting down the controlling network.



* ''Film/WonderWoman2017'': While [[spoiler:Ares]] does give mankind new ideas for killing each other, he revealed to Wonder Woman that the humans carried out war crimes entirely on their own volition and that [[HumansAreTheRealMonsters humanity is naturally inclined to violence]]. Given that UsefulNotes/WorldWarII and several other conflicts occur after his death and without his direct influence, to say nothing of the CrapsackWorld that is the [=DCEU=], [[spoiler:Ares]] is not entirely wrong. This is acknowledged by Wonder Woman herself in the final scene when she acknowledges that even if she can't change all of humanity, she can still save one human life at a time.

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* ''Film/WonderWoman2017'': While [[spoiler:Ares]] does give mankind new ideas for killing each other, he revealed reveals to Wonder Woman that the humans carried out war crimes entirely on their own volition and that [[HumansAreTheRealMonsters humanity is naturally inclined to violence]]. Given that UsefulNotes/WorldWarII and several other conflicts occur after his death and without his direct influence, to say nothing of the CrapsackWorld that is the [=DCEU=], [[spoiler:Ares]] is not entirely wrong. This is acknowledged by Wonder Woman herself in the final scene when she acknowledges that even if she can't change all of humanity, she can still save one human life at a time.
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