That's a good question. I'm not sure of the answer. Perhaps Is This An Example? is the place to ask?
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General Ironwood's entry:
- Big Good: He serves as this to Atlas, their Huntsman academy, and their army, being the headmaster and highest ranking general.
Ironwood is not a Big Good of this show. Even with Ozpin sitting in the body of a 14-year-old boy, the Big Bad and her forces regard Ozpin as the primary threat. While Ironwood has two roles as general and headmaster, his overall position in the storyline is no different to any of the headmasters, who are all seen as the primary power-brokers of their respective kingdoms by the villains. The villains haven't show any concern about Ironwood in terms of his ability to threaten their plans beyond the obvservation that he'll only become a problem for them if he teams up with Vacuo (suggesting they don't regard him as a threat by himself). They have expressed far more concern about Ozpin reaching Ironwood than they have about Ironwood himself. Indeed, Salem only changed her plan from going after Vacuo to going after Atlas because Ozpin was on his way to Atlas — not because of anything Ironwood represents to her in terms of opposition to her plans.
Ironwood's role in Volume 7 cannot be troped because Volume 7 hasn't even aired yet but, based on the above, Ozpin is — and remains — the Big Good.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading. Hide / Show Replies
1. A show or movie series can have more than one Big Good. Example: Yoda and Mace Windu in the prequel trilogy, being the leaders of the still extant Jedi Council.
2. Ironwood holds two seats on the counsel and is the highest ranking general of the Atlas military. This means that he is the military leader and has large sway over how the government is run. This is a level of power nun of the other headmasters, not even Ozpin, have and since Atlas sees his actions as good, he is Atlas's Big Good.
3. Going back to Mace Windu for a second, he didn't have much involvement in the story until episode 3, but since he is the leader of the Jedi Order, he is their Big Good. Lord of the Rings has one like this in Elrond. He is the eleven king and one of their strongest fighter, so his people look to him. He is their Big Good. With both these examples, the story isn't about them, but they remain a significant holder of power and leadership for the people around them. As does Ironwood.
My point is that you don't just have to have one Big Good and Ironwood commands Atlas's armies making him the most powerful player on the good side and, while in private he answers to Ozpin, in public Ironwood has far more authority than Ozpin. Ironwood is a Big Good in the larger context of the world.
Edited by Professorchaos56
I never said a show can't have more than one Big Good. I am, however, saying that this particular show only has one Big Good so far.
Ironwood holding two seats on the council and controlling the only army in the whole of the story's setting does not automatically make him a Big Good; a character who is The Leader of the most powerful protagonist force certainly can be a Big Good, but they're not automatically that trope. It's trope shoehorning to act like that's all that's needed for a character to be a Big Good. There's more to the trope than just that, which is why a story with only one Big Good will often not give the role to the most physically and/or politically powerful leader in the setting — the Big Good in these stories will usually be The Mentor instead, with the story's role being defined by wisdom and experience instead of physical might.
That's the situation we see in this story. Ironwood's situation has not changed from the very first moment he was introduced to the show — he has always had two seats on the council and he has always commanded the only army in the entire setting on top of his 'army' of Huntsmen. He has therefore always been the character that's held the most power of all the protagonists, but he has never played a Big Good role. The role of Big Good in this story has been defined by wisdom and experience, not by physical might. Indeed, that very point has been discussed in-universe multiple times, including the idea that physical might isn't the key to stopping the Big Bad. Even the pilot episode warns 'there will be no victory in strength' and that the key lies with a 'simple soul' (which we think is Ruby). And the protagonists warn Ironwood that, while he wants the world to look to him for reassurance, they will instead look to him in fear — because his might does not represent safety to the people, it represents war.
In this story, the role of Big Good has been defined by the fact that the Big Bad's adversary is Ozpin (well, technically Ozma, but Ozpin and Ozma are troped as one being because they's how they've functioned in the Ozpin identity). The other headmasters were subordinate to Ozpin not because they had less power than him (indeed, the entire point of Ironwood's role in the story has been partially to show that he has greater political and physical power than Ozpin) but because Ozpin has the greatest knowledge, wisdom and experience with dealing with the threat of the Big Bad. Even with the transfer from Ozpin to Oscar, Ozma's message (to Oscar) has been about guiding the world. The God of Light's message to Ozma was about guiding humanity. Ozma's entire back story indicates that he tends to lose his way when he's The Leader and that he functions best as The Mentor, that the purpose of the Big Good trope in this story is to be The Mentor to the entire world when the world needs mentoring and guidance.
As far as both the story set-ups, and the behaviour of the villains, are concerned, Ozpin remains the story's single Big Good. Even without Vale behind him and in the body of a fourteen-year-old boy, the villains worry about what he's doing and what he's planning. The Big Bad shows no particular concern about any threat Ironwood presents as the guy in charge of Atlas — the only concern the villains ever express about him is that they don't want Atlas and Vacuo to team up, which suggests that Ironwood is not a Big Good to them because they're worrying about two kingdoms and two kingdom leaders tag-teaming, not the actions or threat level of a single kingdom or a single kingdom's leader. Meanwhile, Ozpin's mere presence causes the villains to panic and even causes the Big Bad to change her plans.
There's another problem with defining Ironwood as a 'Big Good' and that's the actual story role that we're seeing the show setting up for him — which is a growing level of power consolidation that concerns the protagonists who are in the know, and creates the sense of growing dictatorial tendencies that may or may not be setting up Ironwood for a great fall. This is not the role of someone who is playing a Big Good, but of a subordinate to a Big Good who thinks they know better than the Big Good — usually in stories, they come a cropper and have to eat humble pie, and while we have no idea if that really is what will happen to Ironwood, the role that's played out for him in the first six volumes has been this instead of a path towards becoming a Big Good.
For the record, I don't believe the Big Good has the right way — the story is setting up The Hero (Ruby) to Take a Third Option eventually. But that has been set up from the start, as has the idea that what Ironwood represents (strength and might) is the wrong way to solve the Big Bad, and that the role of the Big Good in this particular story is defined by wisdom, guidance and experience, not by physical strength and might.
Sometimes a Big Good can be The Leader. In this story, the message has been that the role of Big Good is played by The Mentor instead.
What I would say is that Ironwood does seem to see himself as a Big Good and he does seem to want to be a Big Good, but that doesn't mean he's actually playing the role — indeed, the in-universe criticism of him has really been because of the difference that exists between what he wants to be and what he really is. Depending on how the Atlas arc plays out, I could see an argument being made that Ironwood is an in-universe deconstruction of the Big Good trope rather than a genuine Big Good example — he so desperately wants to be, but his actions get deconstructed by other protagonists in-universe, and he doesn't have the impact of the people of Remnant that he wants (for example, he wants them to feel safe, but his actions make them feel the opposite, and allow the villains to manipulate him to magnify that problem and make people blame Atlas for the fall of Beacon).
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I wasn't trying to argue he's one for the story-line. I was trying to say that Ironwood is one (or is trying to be one) in-universe. As the leader of the greatest (and perhaps only) military force on Remnant, he is the greatest force for good in Atlas at least. However you do make a good point that no one in-universe sees him as one. I will also agree that the set up for volume 7 is leaning in a direction where he will in some way try and fail to be one.
However, I would argue that if Ironwood is a deconstruction, Ozpin is too. The thing about Ozpin is that, despite his wisdom and experience, he is destructive to his own cause. Because he lied about Salem being immortal, he essentially trapped his allys (some of them for years) in scenario where they have been chasing an unattainable goal while he has been completely with out a plan. The guy who has the most wisdom and experience is just as clueless as everyone else.
Sorry, my first response was a bit unreadable, so this is a rewrite of my response to avoid waffle.
Ozpin isn't a deconstruction. He's walking a fairly standard Big Good path. The common path for a Big Good (especially one in The Mentor role, because it's common for The Mentor, too) is:
- The Big Good is deeply respected by the heroes, who follow his guidance faithfully.
- There is a revelation about the Big Good to the heroes that puts him in the worst possible light and undoes everything they thought they knew about him.
- The heroes attempt to go it alone without the Big Good's leadership or guidance and start going down the wrong path (even if only slightly)
- The heroes learn more about the Big Good (they finally learn the best of him), again undoing what they thought they knew about him and allowing reconciliation to happen.
- The heroes move forward, once more united with the purpose of the Big Good, but far wiser to the nuances of the world due to a better understanding of the Big Good as a flawed, but good, person, which is symbolic of their better understanding of the flawed, nuanced world they live in.
- The Big Good learns in the process to hand the reins to the next generation and will inevitably be deeply humbled and proud of the heroes.
Volume 6 gave us Point Number 2 and the set up for Point Number 3. I'm expecting Volume 7 to be all about Point Number 3.
So, yeah, Ozpin is a normal Big Good. The reason that Ironwood is only a deconstruction of the trope at best is because he's never been a Big Good in this story, but he's spent the entire story desperately wanting to be one.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I wouldn't say that is a common path for a Big Good. Most of the examples on the main page don't come anywhere close to that. Could you name some who've gone though that because I'm drawing a blank.
I've change Ironwoods entry. Is this better?
Big Good: He's using his position as The Leader of Remnant's largest military and his controlling hand in the Atlas government to try to be this. Unfortunately, as of volume 6, his more authoritative actions have inspired more concern than comfort.
Apologies for the delay in response. It could probably do with an example to show how he's trying to be it, rather than just saying he is (the big one is probably the argument between himself and the rest of Ozpin's group about bringing his army to Vale — he wants people to feel safe and really thought that's what he was doing until Ozpin points out that people tend to regard armies as a symbol of conflict and that then makes them wonder what on earth their leaders are planning to fight). However, I'm fine with the gist.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Wrong place.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Sorry, posted in the wrong place.
Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
I saw how this page said do not Asshole Victim to the Madame and her daughters since their own actions led to their deaths and not by accident. Since they cuased their own deaths, would that count as Karmic Death?
Edited by IdeaMaster
Would Bram Thronmane count as a sociopath? He presents to be an ally to the protagonists but is really a petty man who holds a grudge against Ironwood for not making him an Ace-Op. He created devices to attract Grimm allowing settlements across the kingdom get destroyed. He lied and manipulated everyone to either do his dirty work for him, or betray and turn on each other believing that he is trying to help the kingdom. Tries to kill team RWBY when they confront him and not caring how many people got hurt or killed because of his plans.
Nintendoman01
I was thinking; Jacques Schnee is a perfect example of a Slimeball. He fits the criteria of the trope perfectly.
He manipulates events around him in his favor and to get good PR and publicity, organizing a fundraiser for Vale and running for the Atlas council to end the Dust embargo... but only because Ironwood's embargo is cutting into his profits. He puts up a charming and affable act, with polite talk and refined mannerisms, again, just an act to get people to side with him and do what he wants. Everything he does is for his own personal gain; he's a sleazy, morally-slippery creep, exactly as described on the Laconic part of the trope.
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I think you're right.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
The Foil Trope was deleted, apparently Foils need to be seen together, However the Troper did so without bothering to put it under the correct Trope, or ask. So do we have a Contrasting Successor trope that isn't sequal related?
- Foil: Jacques and Nicholas, Discussed Trope. Jacques is a man who assumed control of the Schnee Dust Company at the height of its fame solely by marrying into the family. He uses shady business practices to maximize profit, drives rival Dust companies out of business, exploits company workers, and keeps the people of Mantle in poverty by driving down wages. Burying his unsavory business practices with aggressive PR, he forces his family to remain with him even at the cost of their own happiness. In contrast, his father-in-law Nicholas was the son of a miner who trained in combat and learned everything he could to better himself. He was motivated by the determination to lift the people of Mantle out of poverty and personally led any risk-taking expeditions in search of lucrative Dust mines, risking himself to protect his men. He built his company from scratch to become a global brand respected for its quality and trustworthiness; giving up adventuring to spend more time with his family, he was a man who was respected for his ethics and whose family loved having him with them.
I think this is an odd-ball situation. The troper's edit reason isn't wrong, it's just that this entry is about the WoR episode "Schnee Dust Company". Qrow explicitly discusses the two men, their personalities, their differences, and how different the company is under each man. While Qrow talks, Nick does the hand-over to Jacques. That's why the entry is written as a Discussed Trope example.
It could probably stand to be made a bit clearer that it's Qrow who's discussing the trope in relation to the two men in that mini-episode, and they are seen together in that mini-episode, as a result.
It would be interesting to know if there is another appropriate trope, but I think the first thing to do is confirm whether this actually is a Foil example, given the specific nature of the example concerned. If it is one, it probably should be rewritten to make it clear why it fits the trope when one of the characters died years before the story's time period.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Paging DragonMaster408 to the discussion for their thoughts. I did PM them, but that was before I saw your post here.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
It is a good and accurate comparison, which is why I tried to save it under another trope. I know we have a trope for Contrasting Sequel Protagonist, From Aang of ATLA & Korra, his next life & sequel. If we don't it could be one good trope to make.
Musician/Composer
So, once his treacherous misdeeds have been exposed in the second half of Volume 7, Jacques is arrested and is last seen being hauled off into a paddywagon. He shows up again in Volume 8, still in jail. Does this count as a true example of the Put on a Prison Bus trope?
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No, because he remained in the show. The Bus tropes are about removing a character from the show (in this case, they're removed from the show by sending them to an off-screen gaol somewhere). Since Volume 8 included the prison scenes, he remained a part of the show.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I see. For what it's worth, I've just asked about the proposed example
on the "Is this an example?" thread for further feedback.
Responded.
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Musician/Composer
So, given Whitley's kindness in his efforts to help Weiss and her allies in Volume 8, should we consider adding an Unexpected Kindness entry for him?
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Yes, considering how he acted in V4, honestly it's amazing people gave the writers grief over Weiss not wanting to spend time with him after that.
Yes, I think he qualifies.
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Should Fascist, but inefficient be labeled in Ironwoods character page?
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Fascist, but Inefficient isn't a character trope. It's about the regime as a whole, not the individual in charge of the regime. Besides, Ironwood wasn't in full control long enough for it to become a systemic issue. Volume 7, Episode 8 to the final episode of Volume 8 covers about three days and three nights at most. Martial law was in force for two days at most.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
May's entry:
- Transgender: She tells Weiss that after her parents disowned her for fighting for Mantle's rights, she made sure they clearly understood that they wouldn't be disowning a son, but a daughter. Kdin Jenzen has confirmed that May is the show's first on-screen transgender character.
The trope is supposed to cover how it affects the story. Just listing that someone is transgender is misuse. The previous entry explained the story impact, but that was removed when cleaned up for Word Cruft. I'm suggesting the addition of a sentence to provide the story purpose as follows:
- Transgender: When Weiss implies May should prioritise protecting Atlas over Mantle because she has family there, May reveals that her parents disowned her for fighting for Mantle's rights. She made sure they clearly understood that they wouldn't be disowning a son, but a daughter, and severed all ties with Atlas. Kdin Jenzen has confirmed that May is the show's first on-screen transgender character.
Of course, perona also trimmed down some of the other examples for verbosity reasons.
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Well, trimming Word Cruft isn't a problem. I just want to clarify the story context of this entry.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I think it should be rewritten to look something like this:
- While discussing with Weiss on whether they should protect Atlas or Mantle, May explains that her activism in Mantle caused her parents to disown her. She made sure they clearly understood that they wouldn't be disowning a son, but a daughter, and disowned her family in turn. Kdin Jenzen has confirmed that May is the show's first on-screen transgender character.
Thoughts?
Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Yeah, that's fine.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
The Transgender trope is having a TRS here if anyone is interested.
Should Tortuga be labeled under the ace-ops as a killed off-screen and posthumous character. Also should the vale council be posted in the eastern Sanus page even though we don’t know their names and only saw them in the volume 2 finale talking with Ozpin. I’m only saying this because the only other council we saw was the Atlas council with Camilla and Sleet.
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We saw enough of the Atlesian Council to trope them, but we have almost nothing to trope on either Tortuga or the Vale Council.
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[[Music/BlueStahli ULTRANumb]]
Question. Does Ironwood count for the General Failure trope? Cause he is absolutely dedicated to stopping Salem and letting nothing get in his way, has become a flat out villain by Volume 8's end... but is also a fucking moron in regards to military action and just keeps doubling down on his stupid ideas even when they are proven to not work. I'd also suggest General Ripper since he eventually devolves to blaming everything on Mantle.
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I don't think he's General Ripper because his obsession is with a very real enemy who is a very real threat. If we were dealing with a very different situation, but Ironwood was seeing Salem under every bush and driving every person's action regardless of whether she was or not, then we'd have a General Ripper. Ironwood's a case of a very real threat being handled in a very obsessive and dysfunctional way.
I think it was right in the past to argue that General Failure was being misapplied to Ironwood. However, I do think people are right to argue that the Atlas Arc has turned him into one, and the success of doing so is based on the foundation of earlier volumes (which were not themselves General Failure but are the basis for how he becomes General Failure later on).
So, I'd say he's not General Ripper, but he is General Failure.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Since Winter now has the winter maiden powers can will put the Big Good trope on her in the future as leader of an army against Salem during the final battle.
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We don't trope episodes until they're released to the public. However, you're talking about Speculative Troping about future events that haven't happened, which we're not allowed to do. We don't even know if Atlas' army has even survived, never mind who will lead it in the future.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
We’ll just have to wait and see but it was just a feeling and besides the army could be huntsmen and huntresses.
Should we add the big brother is watching and military coup to Ironwoods character folder? We witnessed him having security cameras all over mantle and he now has complete control over the kingdom and made the council useless now and even killed one of the councilmen.
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I think they are story tropes and if they are, they should go on the main work page.
You can also use the Is this an example? thread if necessary.
Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
Ironwood's entry had the following added. It's got a lot of Examples Are Not Arguable and Speculative Troping issues.
I've brought it here to see if there's a legitimate Pride entry that can be salvaged from it, or whether it's just the wrong trope. If there is something salvageable from it, it'll need a rewrite.
- Pride: Although not as prevalent and commented on as his paranoia, Ironwood seems to have a large opinion of himself. In "Field Trip", Glynda accuses him of treating everything like a dick-measuring contest, while Watts asserts that on top of being an Ungrateful Bastard, Ironwood stood atop Watts' genius and called himself a giant. When describing how the Atlas Army will defend Vale in Volume 3, Ironwood makes sure to emphasize that it's his fleet. When discussing the deaths of his opponents occurring in Mantle during Volume 7, Ironwood claims that whoever's doing it is framing him and Atlas, indirectly stating they are one and the same. When discussing the Fall of Beacon, what Ironwood obsesses not on the deaths and destruction that occured, but how helpless Salem him feel. This hubris leads to him Underestimating Badassery and refusing to admit error when his methods fail or backfire. As the series goes on, there's an increasing implication that Ironwood is just as motivated to validating his beliefs and avoid having to see acknowledge his mistakes.
This was played under Madame's section:
- Small Role, Big Impact: They only get half an episode to themselves, but they're responsible for turning Cinder into the villain that she is.
The pothole is wrong because Cinder is not the Dragon, she is The Heavy.
Small Role, Big Impact needs discussion, in part because Rhodes also had a massive impact on her — in some ways, a bigger one. Without combat training, she wouldn't be so useful to Salem in the first place. Without the training, the triggering event (the sword - on two occasions) would never have been based around weapons. The back story also doesn't tell us anything about how and when she met Salem, and it's the connection to Salem that has made her The Heavy of the show. While Madame has clearly had a massive impact on Cinder's personality what we're looking at is the impact on the plot — and several characters are potentially jockeying for that.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ironwood's entry. This has been added, removed and then re-added by the same troper without edit reason.
- General Failure: He may be charismatic and cunning, but he's also arrogant, paranoid, suffers from PTSD, and is obsessed with outward displays of strength. Combined with his controlling tendencies and refusal to admit error, altogether we have a man who, throughout the series, continually makes poor decisions that end up blowing up in his face and handing the villains victories. In Volume 7, he tries to reestablish global communications by stealing resources from Mantle, which were needed to fix a massive hole in its outer wall. When the villains provoke a Grimm attack, the Grimm are able to invade the city through the hole, and Ironwood is force to exhaust his army trying to fix things. When he learns that Salem is on her way, he snaps, lashes out at his allies, and the in-fighting gets one of his best agents killed while allowing Neo to steal the Relic of Knowledge.
This isn't a General Failure example. It's just a rehash of his Fatal Flaw combined with the consequences of a successful Batman Gambit the villains pulled off against him.
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General Failure is about incompetent or short-sighted military leaders, which Ironwood is clearly presented as by the narrative now that he’s jumped off the slippery slope. I agree the exact phrasing could be cleaned up, but he does count as an example. Just because it’s a particular manifestation of his Fatal Flaw does not mean it isn’t a separate, equally relevant trope that should be mentioned.
I didn't talk about whether General Failure applies to him as a trope. I said that particular entry wasn't an example of the trope.
The trope isn't for a general who happens to have some plans that do fail. And it's not a trope for a general who falls victim to a deliberate villainous strategy that successfully pulls off a Batman Gambit against a specific weak point of the general. The trope is for a general who cannot succeed because he doesn't have the ability to succeed. Any entry that is therefore focussed any actions by Ironwood that have been caused by villains engaging in successful strategies against them isn't this trope — he's simply been out-strategised and out-gambitted.
There's a lot of misuse in General Failure due to the misconception that General Failure means 'general who failed'. It doesn't. It means 'general who failed because they're incapable of success due to not having the ability in the first place'.
Ironwood has the ability. He did not have a reputation for incompetence. He and Ozpin were directly targeted in a villainous You Can't Thwart Stage One strategy, which triggered his PTSD, which the villains further targeted (deliberately), which put him into a vicious spiral of poor choices due to to his Fatal Flaw constantly being triggered by the villains — deliberately, because they know that's the weakness they need to exploit to defeat him.
Now, this post is also not saying that General Failure doesn't apply to Ironwood. What I'm saying is that the entry I've brought here is trope misuse, and this is the reason why it's trope misuse.
To make the trope apply to Ironwood, we have to look at it differently. Clearly, he has a reputational history for competence and ability. So, he was not promoted to general beyond his ability. What has happened, what has become increasingly clear to the characters, is that Ironwood does not have the ability to lead the fight against Salem. So, he's not a General Failure because he's been promoted to the rank of general above his ability. He is a General Failure because he has been promoted to the position of Big Good, and that is very far beyond his ability to handle. The big reason why is because he's incapable of embracing his own fear, instead becoming increasingly dictatorial and controlling, which causes everything to spiral out of his control and make him even more afraid.
In other words, the entry is going to be based around his Big Good entry, for which he's a deconstruction. Ozpin was the leader of the fight against Salem, but Ironwood didn't like his methods and thought he could do a better job. Once he's in charge, everyone gets to see that he's terrible at it: his obsession with physicality, military strength, and his fear of Salem's inhumanity leads him to become, as Oscar pointed out, just another Salem. He was completely ill-suited to leading the fight against Salem because he can't even cope with dealing with her.
That is the General Failure entry for Ironwood — it's his usurping of the Big Good role that is the 'promotion beyond his abilities' that meets the requirement of the trope. You're looking at an entry that's something along these lines (yes, it does overlap in places with the previous entry but the context entry, which is what shows how the trope is being used, is completely different):
- General Failure: Initially a general with a solid reputation, Ironwood becomes the de facto leader of the fight against Salem after Professor Ozpin and Beacon Academy fall. He is so obsessed with not repeating Ozpin or Professor Lionheart's mistakes that he blinds himself to the new mistakes his own fear is creating, such as his perception of Salem's inhumanity making him strip away his own to become increasingly aggressive and dictatorial towards his kingdom's people. Watts and Tyrian exploit his increasingly worsening reputation to divide Mantle and Atlas, while Cinder leaving Salem's Calling Card in his office triggers his PTSD, exacerbating his tyrannical decision-making into exposing the secret location of the Winter Maiden and enabling the Relic of Knowledge to being stolen. His grand plan to unite Remnant via Amity Tower falls apart, his obsession with finding Watts and Tyrian enables Salem's army to arrive at his doorstep without warning, and his fear that humane decisions benefit Salem leads him to turn against his own allies and abandon Mantle's people. Instead of being Remnant's leader in the fight against Salem, his fear of Salem reduces him to a tyrannical Control Freak who shoots his own allies for challenging decisions that bring his kingdom to the brink of destruction. After failing to get Ironwood to acknowledge his fears and embrace his humanity, Professor Ozpin's true successor Oscar informs Ironwood that he is now as dangerous as Salem.
This can probably be written much better (and shorter), but it's just an example right now.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Should we add asshole victims to madam and her daughters and create your villain or unwitting instigator of doom as their actions towards cider help create one of most powerful and sadistic villains of the series.
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Asshole Victim is when someone dies and the disgrace is unrelated to the victim's act. Here, Madam and her daughters die because of what they did and they bring their fate upon themselves, so that might count as Karmic Death.
He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself.
It's not Karmic Death because that's a way of killing off the villain in a way that prevents the hero from having to get their hands dirty by killing the villain directly. Cinder's not a hero and actually kills them herself.
It's more like Death by Irony since they put the shock collar on her to control her but the day they genuinely needed to control her was the day they discovered it couldn't.
I also don't believe Madame and her daughters are Unwitting Instigator of Doom. I think that's Rhodes. The trope needs an accidental act, and the torture was wilful. Cinder was just a brat with a sword and desire for revenge at the same age she was originally bought — but she would just have been a child killer with no actual training or skills of long-term value. Rhodes' well-meaning intervention ended up only delaying this outcome by a couple of years, allowing the sadism and torture to become bedded into Cinder's psyche while also ensuring that she was now a well-trained killer with useful skills for someone like Salem to exploit.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
So at this point would it be safe to trope Harriet under the Jerkass trope?
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Yet another troper who starts an edit war instead of discussing with Wyldchyld's reasoning for deleting entries.
- Worf Had the Flu: Of all the Ace-Ops, Marrow is hit with this the worst. Throughout his fight with Weiss, Marrow mainly stays on the defensive, only throwing one attack out the entire time. Naturally, Harriet calls him out on his obvious restraint, which he defends by stating he was aiming to arrest her, not kill her.
- Worf Had the Flu: During Ace-ops' clash against Team RWBY, Vine twice shows a desire for them to surrender rather than using force and aims to disable them rather than act agressively during the battle, which results in Elm repeatedly berating him for holding back against Blake and Yang.
Holding back in battle isn't Worf Had the Flu, it's a different trope. Something like Willfully Weak or related.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Truth be told, I had forgotten Willfully Weak existed and thought that fell in the former category, I wasn't trying to start an edit war as much as I was trying to better explain what I was getting at, but now I've been reminded, I agree that my entry was incorrect and Willfully Weak seems far more appropriate. I apologize for any inconvenience.
Seeing as they were clearly shown in the trailers and some artwork, can I add Ironwood having a new prosthetic arm and retrieving his black revolver to the appropriate tropes? I know Volume 8 knowledge generally should only be added when the non-first watchers can watch the episodes, but this has technically already been shown.
This has been added to Maria's entry, removed by me and then added back by the same troper. So, I've brought it here for discussion.
- Old Friend : With Maria for who he has made her prosthetic eyes after she was blinded by Tock. After recognizing Maria Pietro is visibly happy to see her again and while she is rather annoyed by his forgetfulness and antics Maria strongly cares for Pietro as shown with her worried reaction upon learning about his failing health and her comforting him after he voiced concern about what would happen to him and Penny if she was destroyed again.
My issue with the trope is that she only visits Atlas every ten years or so for the check-up and Pietro's scatterbrained enough to require having his memory jogged when she turns up. While they clearly have a good rapport, it's also obvious they have no past association between the check-up visits. It's during V7 that they start spending a lot of time together in the background while the heroes get on with the plot.
Old Friend requires a friendship that goes far back into either school or college, but the character lose touch until, one day, the old friend comes back into your life. That's not how the past relationship between these two is portrayed.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
When vol. 8 comes out do you think Ironwood would not only be a Hero Antagonist but also be in a Big Bad Ensemble with Salem since Oscar said he is just as dangerous as Salem?
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Well, we're not going to know until the volume is out, but I very much doubt it. Ironwood's ended up where he is because he and the heroes have very different ideas about how best to fight Salem. He's not sliding down the slippery slope to villainhood because he's aligning himself with Salem, he's sliding because he's willing to sacrifice his humanity to fight her.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
You’re right but i still think that he might because reason 1, he ordered the arrest of teams RWBY and JNR(the remaining members of team JNPR), reason 2, he shot Oscar and believe Oscar was desposed of and reason 3 I still think he’s on the path to villainhood and be in a Big Bad Ensemble in the future.
Should each continent have a in general folder to describe each kingdom themselves along with the continent?
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That question has been sort of raised on the forum not too long ago. I certainly understand why people would want one, but these are Character pages rather than setting pages. Only character tropes are supposed to go on Character Pages. However, the last time the discussion started, it didn't really go anywhere, so perhaps ask on the forum and see if you can get a discussion going?
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Hey sorry for bringing this question up again and sorry if it annoys anyone but I still think that ironwood would classify as a well intentioned version of a generalissimo, general ripper, and totalitarian utilitarian. While he has good intentions Ironwood is damaging the kingdom specifically the city of mantle. Has been making a lot of totalitarian decisions and propaganda videos, and after the episode gravity he has solidify his status as a dictator by declaring martial law preventing the council from doing anything about it and turning against the protagonists by ordering their arrest and attempted to kill one himself.
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Well, taking the tropes one-by-one:
- The Generalissimo: This is a sub-trope of Evil Overlord and The Caligula. It's a Villain trope. It's for a very specific kind of tyrant, who modelled on third-world dictatorial stereotypes. Ironwood is not a variation of either Evil Overlord or The Caligula. He is a subversion of the Big Good trope: someone who desperately wanted to be the Big Good, but Well-Intentioned Extremist + Fatal Flaw + The Paranoic = Hero Antagonist, and fast sliding towards Anti-Villain. Of the list of typical crimes associated with this trope, being part of a system that abuses Faunus is Ironwood's only relevant crime for now (although he is heading towards nepotism). While he's currently in the process of declaring martial law to take control of the kingdom, the kingdom isn't a third-world equivalent nation. It leads the world in technology and military defence. It's considered the strongest kingdom. It has a right to think of itself as a guiding light for the rest of the world (although it's clearly abusing that at the moment). Neither Ironwood's situation nor his kingdom's setting fit this trope.
- General Ripper: A General Ripper sees his key enemy behind every corner, hiding in every shadow. He was good at his job once, but he's so obsessed with this enemy, that it's taken to disproportionate degrees and he's keeps trying to start wars against this enemy for often unrelated reasons. That's not Ironwood's situation. He's not trying to start wars for any trigger that he can interpret as being caused by Salem. He's been focussed defence, he's been focussed on the things Salem attacked in Vale and Mistral. That's a very different mentality and situation. It's only when his Fatal Flaw is triggered that he becomes paranoid enough to second-guess every decision he's made but, that's again, not this trope — he's not seeing Salem in the shadows, she's really there, on his door-step. While his previous decisions had been imperfect and sometimes controversial, the heroes had been coming together to unite against Salem. It's only when Cinder triggers his PTSD that things fall apart. That is not this trope.
- Totalitarian Utilitarian: The point to this character is that they're trying to make everyone's lives better; they have some kind of vision for that means and they will go to any lengths to ensure their vision of this world comes to pass. Ironwood isn't doing that. There is a very real Big Bad bringing a very real war to his doorstep, and he's trying to figure out how to save his people from extinction. The decision he eventually reaches is also the opposite of this trope: Ironwood has chosen the needs of the few over the needs of the many because all he feels he can do is protect the two Relics and the Winter Maiden from falling into her hands.
Just because Ironwood has begun making totalitarian decisions doesn't automatically make him a totalitarian trope. The fandom is still debating whether V7 ends with him being a Hero Antagonist or an Anti-Villain; but he is not yet a Villain.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
[[Music/BlueStahli ULTRANumb]]
Wouldn't Vine and Ren count as foils to one another? RWBY V7 E4 "Pomp and Circumstance" makes deliberate parallels between the two during their scene together after demonstrating they are both Sarcasm-Blind.
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That scene is the opposite of a Foil, since it's a joke at their expense about how similar they are. It's also pretty much a one-off. The volume as a whole does not create a plot line whereby they play off each other in terms of how their differences and similarities work with and against each other, which is what's required a Foil. Otherwise, it's just comparing and contrasting two characters who happen to have things to compare and contrast... and that's the most common misuse of Foil.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I was watching some of Clover's fight scenes and reading the comments of others about him, and I noticed that his fighting style mainly consists of wrapping people up with his weapon or tripping them. But he doesn't seem to have any sort of technique that can cause heavy damage to Grimm or enemy combatants. In his last fight with Qrow and Tyrian, Clover did a good job holding them off, but it didn't look like he had anything in his arsenal that would've actually taken them down. What sort of trope could be used to describe this?
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I don't think there is one. You're speculating, and objective tropes aren't supposed to use speculative troping. It might be a WMG entry, however, but that has its own page.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Um, is there a reason Rod-And-Reel Repurposed isn't under Clover's tropes, or Musical Assassin isn't under Flynt's? I checked the latter, and while Flynt isn't an assassin, it just says under laconic, "Person who uses music as a weapon." I just want to know because otherwise I would add them.
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The characters aren't those tropes is the short answer.
The key to Musical Assassin (no pun intended) is that an assassin carries out his hits by using a musical instrument. There's a Laconic clean-up thread for inaccurate laconics, that one could probably do with visiting it. Flynt is a warrior, but he's not an assassin.
Rod and Reel Repurposed is about using an actual fishing rod for non-fishing purposes. Clover's weapon is inspired by the fishing rod, but it's not an actual fishing rod.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
I'm doing wick clean-up for the TRS thread for Man in White, which now has a tighter definition (ambitious, hands-off villain who wears a white suit) and new name Villain in a White Suit. I'm not familiar with this work, but based on reading the rest of the page it seems like Jacques fits, but that's not very clear from the entry under Man In White. Could someone here please re-write this entry to be oriented towards Villain in a White Suit?
- Man In White: Jacques is based on Jack Frost and married into the Schnee family, a family that is associated with snow. He took the Schnee family name and adopted the mannerisms and appearance of the Schnee family. His once black hair is now white and his cold, ruthless personality is emphasised by his clothing: he dresses in a white dress suit that is accented by a blue shirt and red handkerchief.
Edit: links are still broken, copy this link to visit the thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1555888771064742100&page=4#84 Edited by naturalironist "It's just a show; I should really just relax" Hide / Show Replies
I've made a suggestion on the thread.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Removed for shoehorning from Ironwood's character section:
- Failure Hero: Although his intentions are good, most, if not all of Ironwood's plans to fight Salem either fail at best, or in fact enable her plans at worst;
- In Volume 2, he brings an army to Vale because he's worried about a potential attack. Not only does the tension generated by the army's presence draw Grimm to the kingdom, but during the Fall of Beacon, Cinder uses a computer virus to turn the Knights and Paladins against him.
- Worried about Salem stealing more of Atlas' resources, he invokes an embargo and closes the borders of his kingdom. When he learns that something big is about to go down in Mistral, he just withdraws his forces to Atlas. This means that not only is Atlas' economy going to hurt, but an allied nation has virtually no support, ruining their foreign policy. Had it not been for the Faunus Militia, Haven would have been lost.
- In order to build Amity Tower and reestablish global communications without dipping into his own resources, Ironwood "diverts" materials assigned to repair Mantle's outer walls, figuring his army can handle things. This and the resentment from the increased military presence merely increases Grimm attacks, meaning his forces are continually exhausting themselves.
- He assigns Penny and Marrow to guard Robyn Hill's election day party, but this puts Penny in the position to be framed by Tyrian and Watts.
- When his paranoia consumes him and he begins lashing out, his orders to arrest the heroes backfires on him epically. First, Clover's Blind Obedience ultimately gets him killed by Tyrian. His order to have Winter take the Winter Maiden's power leads Cinder right to her. And his soldiers attacking Team JNR gives Neo the opening to steal the Relic of Knowledge.
Reasons:
- The Vale Arc is a long, carefully executed plan to attract the Grimm to Vale based on hacking the Vytal Festival Tournament. Much of what Cinder did with Ironwood and his army was adapted on the fly as advantages came her way (the two biggest examples being Team RWBY getting in over their heads at Mountain Glenn and Qrow's Misfortune Semblance kicking in). Failure Hero stresses that Failure Is the Only Option counts against the trope, and the Vale Arc was You Can't Thwart Stage One.
- The Haven plot had very little to do with anything Ironwood did. The lack of defence and protection was due to Leo being a mole for years and ensuring the kingdom's Huntsmen were killed off and the Academy empty at the right time. Salem's plan was a stealthy B&E designed to ensure the world never knew her people had ever been there. The Faunus Militia had nothing to do with either Ironwood or Salem. It was solely in response to Adam's activities and a desire to curb the White Fang's terrorism. We know Ironwood mistrusted Leo, but there's no indication he was clued in on the extent of Leo's betrayal or what was about to happen.
- The show never claims Ironwood is avoiding 'dipping into his own resources'. The show implies that Ironwood is using every resource he has access to, which is why Mantle's resources are being diverted. They're even avoiding flying resources to the tower in order to conserve Dust. He also asks the heroes to help protect Mantle's outer walls precisely because he doesn't have enough man-power to do it without them. The reason his army gets exhausted is because they're trying to fight a Grimm invasion (triggered by the machinations of the villains) and evacuate an entire city at the same time.
- Villainous plot includes the successful massacre of a crowd of people and framing one of the heroes isn't this trope. That's blaming Ironwood for things he actually can't know at that point in the story, which isn't the trope.
- Hero's character flaw is successfully exploited by a villain to tip him over the edge and locate the Winter Maiden isn't this trope; Clover's character flaws are Clover's responsibility, not Ironwood's; Neo stealing the Relic of Knowledge has very little to do with Ironwood or his soldiers. Yes, she takes advantage of the soldiers to escape. However, the show also indicates there was nothing Team JNR could have done to stop her, soldiers or no.
Would ironwood be categorized as general ripper because of his methods and Turing against his allies and generalissimo after becoming dictator of atlas?
Motion to move the character folders of Penny and Pietro Polendina to Friends and Allies, since they now have the flexibility to travel with the main group and the page pertains to those types of characters?
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The story is currently geographically bound. The Friends and Allies page covers the characters who have been travelling with Team RWBY as the plot shifts from location to location.
At the moment, the storyline remains the Atlas Arc and everyone is still in the Kingdom of Atlas. We have seen no evidence that Pietro and Penny are anything other than Arc-specific characters (based in Atlas and remaining in Atlas once the plot and main characters move on to Vacuo).
If it does become clear that Penny will be leaving Atlas to travel to Vacuo with the main heroes, becoming a part of the main, moving plot, then she'd be eligible for the Friends and Allies page.
Edited by Wyldchyld If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Does Winter's behavior towards Qrow qualify as Jerkass to One, or something else? To me it feels like Qrow is the only person whom Winter is outright venomous towards, where as with others she's usually strict at worst. Like when she learned that the heroes had stolen an airship, she was furious at first but eventually calmed down, then chewed out Qrow like it was his fault.
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Probably something else. Qrow was the one who picked a fight with her back in V3. In this volume, as far as she knew, Qrow was the only adult that had travelled with the kids, so it makes sense to target him regarding her teenage sister's protection.
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
So, in many stories, some characters enter the story, serve their role, and move on without any fanfare. If they have served their purpose and exit the story, then it's not a What Happened to the Mouse? situation just because there isn't some final "where are they now" information given. The trope is for cases where a character simply disappears without reason or acknowledgment by the rest of the cast.
Given that, I wonder if Ciel's entry counts?
Edited by gjjones He/His/Him. No matter who you are, always Be Yourself. Hide / Show Replies