During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Lady and the Radiance. And the thing with DIO showing affection to Giorno is in the game, during one of their combo attacks he has a brief look of pride while looking at Giorno. Thing is that that's just an easter egg in gameplay not actually canon. Plus it's brief and ambiguous.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
And looking at those others:
- Zane also portrayed the Collector.
- Diskin also played Granz & Death Gun.
- St. Peter I think this is his first.
- Epcar's had a few.
Any more votes on the Lady of Darkness?
So it's been a while since I've done one of these, but I think I have a strong candidate.
What is the work?
The Expanse is a science fiction television series which is an adaptation of the novel series of the same name. I'm specifically proposing the tv series's version of Doctor Strickland.
In The Expanse humanity is divided between three nations: Earth, Mars and the Belt (which is shorthand the colonies in the asteroid belt and the outer planets). The three naitons are on the brink of war at the start of the series. Much of the series revolves around an alien substance called the protomolecule, which was discovered by the Protogen Corporation. Protogen uses the protomolecule to turn children into mutant soldiers called Hybrids and engineers a war between Earth and Mars to gain the chance to study the protomolecule through the use of these soldiers.
Who is Doctor Strickland?
Doctor Lawrence Strickland is a pediatrician based out of Ganymede specializing in the treatment of a rare spinal disorder. Many of his patients view him as a father figureHe is secretly a scientist working for Protogen who discovered that children with this spinal condition who are turned into Hybrids can be controlled and has been turning his patients into Hybrids.
Protogen eventually decides to "advertise" its Hybrid soldiers to the Mars by having a hybrid fight and wipe out a marine squad with Mars's consent. The battle between the Hybrid and the marines winds up destroying the Ganymede colony beyond repair. There is nothing suggesting that Strickland was involved in this decision, but during the fight he kidnaps most of his remaining patients and takes them to Protogen’s secret lab on Io. One of the kidnapped children is a little girl named Mei Meng. Mei’s father, Prax, believing his daughter to have been killed in the fighting, leaves Ganymede and meets up with the protagonists, the crew of the Rocinante (Roci for short). Eventually, Prax learns that Mei is still alive and about the Protogen experiments and the Roci crew agrees to help him rescue Mei.
Meanwhile, Strickland continues the experiments. He infects a boy named Katoa with protomolecule to study its effects. Protogen's CEO, Jules-Pierre Mao eventually arrives on Io with second thoughts about the whole scheme. He orders Strickland to end his experiments. This upsets Strickland, but he complies, although Strickland keeps Katoa in quarantine to continue to observe him. When Mao learns that Katoa is in quarantine, he orders Strickland to release him. Mao and Strickland go to see Katoa and find that Katoa has ripped a nurse to pieces so the protomolecule could learn about how human insides work. Both Mao and Strickland are elated to learn that the protomolecule can communicate with people it has infested over vast distances and Mao agrees to resume the experiments.
Mao has Stirckland interrogate Katoa as to the protomolecule’s objectives. Strickland deliberately accelerates Katoa’s transformation into a Hybrid to get information from him. However, Katoa’s mind is consumed by the protomolecule before Mao can get the information they want, so Mao and Strickland decide to infect Mei next. Before this can happen, the Roci finds and attacks the Io lab.
Mao and Strickland decide to use the children as hostages to secure their own escape. Strickland also decides to release the now fully Hybrid Katoa to attack the Roci crew, which gets Katoa killed. Mao gets captured, but Strickland and his remaining nurse reach the children before the Roci. Instead of going with the hostage plan, Strickland kills his nurse and, when Prax and Amos (the Roci's Token Evil Teammate) show up, claims to be another prisoner who only just managed to escape. Prax doesn’t buy it and prepares to kill Strickland, but Amos stops him because "You’re not that guy.". Before Strickland can thank Amos, Amos tells him that "I am that guy" and shoots Strickland dead.
Heinousness
The most heinous act in the Expanse TV series to date is when Protogen infected the entire population of Eros station with the protomolecule. Strickland was uninvolved with this. Most of the scientists responsible for that underwent surgery that removed their ability to feel empathy, and the one who didn’t seemed to genuinely believe that he was making the hard decisions necessary to save humanity.
What makes Strickland so heinous is the personalness of his crimes. His patients are children who view him as a father figure. Strickland betrays their trust and turns them into monsters without a second thought. While Mao is trying to save humanity from the protomolecule, Strickland just want to acquire knowledge for its own sake. At no point does Strickland show any concern for anyone’s life but his own. I’d say he definitely passes this one.
Mitigating factors?
None really. As I stated earlier, Protogen’s leadership believes that they are saving humanity. Strickland never expresses this sentiment. In addition, there is nothing that suggests that Strickland has had his empathy suppressed like the Eros scientists.
Verdict
I'd say he meets the criteria.
Edited by lrrose on Jul 11th 2018 at 8:32:34 AM
to Strickland
@ MatStache: The write-up looks alright but I think I can better improved upon it if that's okay. here's my edit of the The Radiance's write-up:
- Hollow Knight: The Radiance is the true cause of all the tragedy bestowed upon the once thriving kingdom of Hallownest. She created the Wyrms and used them to build her an empire, but kept them enslaved in her Hive Mind. When one individual, the Pale King, broke free of her control and led her subject away from her giving them freedom, The Radiance brought The Infection onto them. Though the initial reason for The Infection was to force the denizens of Hollownest to remember and worship her, she was uncaring that her plague was causing them to either die or turn into mindless, zombie-like beings in constant agony, and influenced it even further, eventually deteriorating of the mind of the vessel she was sealed in. An envious, selfish, and callous tyrant of a diety, the Radiance would seek nothing less than sheer dominance, suffering, and destruction of Hollownest.
Any Thoughts?
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 11th 2018 at 2:36:20 AM
Goku Black
Strickland
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Strickland.
Sure to Strickland. I know my father really likes that show. Was considering taking a peek at it myself.
And G? I'd leave the final sentence of the Radiance's writeup to what Stache left it ass. Needlessly bloating up with words like "envious" and "selfish" which the writeup should have already made clear just adds excess, needless fat to the writeup and frankly looks redundant. Stache's summary sentence communicated her monstrosity neatly and concisely. Yours just adds words for what looks like the sake of adding words.
Edited by Scraggle on Jul 11th 2018 at 6:57:07 AM
V
(Not Colonel) Strickland
I agree completely with adding Strickland.
Now, for my next post...
What's the work?
Belladonna of Sadness is a...trippy, psychedelic anime from 1973 with some really acid-trip visuals. It's set in medieval times, in rural France. The problem is? Peasants don't have much by way of rights-and women even less so. And Jeanne and Jean are a happy pair of young lovers who draw the evil eye of the local baron...
Who is the Baron?
The nameless ruler of the territory Jeanne and her fiancee Jean live in. Unfortunately...the Baron imposes a cripplingly high marriage tax on the peasants, which neither Jeanne nor Jean can pay. The Baron declares droit du seigneur and promptly rapes Jeanne himself, before allowing his courtiers to have her after him. A traumatized, terrified Jeanne returns home to Jean who attempts to console her, but Jeanne begins having visions of a spirit, later revealed to be the Devil himself, encouraging her to take revenge. Thing is? Dark Is Not Evil and the Devil in fact is more a pathway to freedom away from conventional morality (why yes, this film loves showing its heroine naked, why do you ask?) The baron proceeds to go off to war and raises taxes even more on the peasants. Jean is made into a tax collector, but when he's forced to report nobody has any more money that they can spare, the Baron chops his hand off. Jeanne, however, becomes a witch with the guide of the Devil and sets up a financial power in the village, preaching a new morality before the Baron returns from war. Envious of Jeanne, he has her driven out.
Jeanne makes a full on pact with the Devil who's...really not a bad guy here. In fact, the bubonic plague is hitting (the baron's response to this is "screw 'em", btw) and Jeanne begins to heal the people, preaching her new faith to them and bidding them to join her into quasi-pagan rituals, (which yes, involve lots of sex and nudity, why do you ask?) Oh, and a Page? Asks Jeanne for a love potion to seduce the Baron's wife. He catches them together and impales them both. The Baron continues on with the horrific impression, but realizing Jeanne's power, he makes an offer for her cure of the plague, promising to make her the second most powerful noble in the land. Jeanne refuses, claiming she'll be satisfied with nothing less than the world itself, prompting the Baron to furiously order her burnt alive, with Jean killed as he tries to save her...Jeanne dies, but at the end, we see her face amidst the Villagers, echoing an earlier warning that if a witch is killed with her pride intact, then her soul will survive to continue influencing those around her. Meaning that while the baron wins now, his days are likely numbered.
So, mitigating qualities?
The baron is the only villain of the film, minus his wife and courtiers, and he's pretty handily over everyone else. Including the freaking devil who's more a liberating force of sexuality (And I'm not going to get in the bizarre visual metaphors here)...but the Baron is just the oppressive force of the aristocracy made flesh and he's the worst of the lot. He's not a full caricature as he's got slyness to him, and a full personality...and he's so nasty that he can't even remember torturing Jean and raping Jeanne for a while. I mean, besides that? Nothing else to say. He's got a nasty rapsheet and he's the worst dude in the film.
Conclusion?
I kind of saw this one by chance and it's not every day one happens on a psychedelic quasi feminist erotic film anime from the 70s (With a plot and intended message that made me feel better propsoing it), but here we are.
Ultimate Moral Compass
The Baron and (Buck) Strickland.
to the Baron.
Yes to Strickland and the Baron.
Wild Child
Baron.
The Lady, The Baron.
to the Baron
I can leave the last sentence as is but what about everything else?
Edited by G-Editor on Jul 11th 2018 at 3:32:02 AM
Yes to the Baron.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Eh... comparing the two side-by-side, yours mostly just seems to restate what Stache's says without really getting rid of clutter. Picking between the two, I'd vote to use Stache's.
Strickland and the Baron.
Here's hoping tomorrow isn't too slow. I had a rendition of the Zodiac Killer in mind today but there was too much ambigouty with him and there was a matter of heinousness in the work he's in.
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Noticed someone suggest this character in the discussion of Equestria Across the Multiverse and looked into it:
What's the work?
Equestria: Across the Multiverse, a collaborative story detailing Twilight and company becoming Dimensional Traveler sorts and exploring the multiverse as a whole. In particular, the universe representing My Little Pony Tales.
Who is Spring Heart?
Princess Spring Heart, AKA 'Chrysalis', is an exiled Princess of the Isle of Pony (specifically Princess Rosie's Evil Aunt) and Queen Chrysalis's Alternate Self who was banished for attempting to kill her older sister Starburst and take her spot as the rightful heir to the throne as well as the one responsible for the then baby Rosie being lost at sea to remove another obstacle to the throne. After her banishment, Spring Heart became a KGB agent using the codename Chrysalis, amassing her own spy network and when the Hooviet Union fell, stole a nuclear submarine by slaughtering the crew and lay in wait for her chance to strike.
She would then kidnap her and Starburst's sister Winter Song, Cadence's Alternate Self, on the eve of her wedding to Sincere Heart (the counterpart of Shining Armor), and undergo Surgical Impersonation to steal her identity, with the intent to slaughter the entire royal family bar herself in an 'accident' and take the throne. After that she intended to take the hidden stash of magical artifacts the royal family are the Ancient Order of Protectors with which she could conquer the world. Her only regret for trying to kill her sister was she was so 'green back then' and shouldn't have gotten caught. When Patch (the Tales Seven, like the Equestria Girls cast, received a Super-Empowering from the Mane Six) and Rosie discover her hide out and plans, she adds Patch (a teenager) added to her list of people to 'kill in an accident' by feeding her to sharks.
When Patch manages to escape with help from Bright Glow and expose Spring Heart at the wedding, she goes with plan be: unleash her army on the wedding with intent to kill everyone who was not her while cutting off communications, so that when the smoke clears she could take the throne. This gradually escalates to a miniature war over the Isle of Pony causing many deaths. She also has a Deadman Switch so if she's killed her submarine will launch a nuke at the Isle in a Taking You with Me. After the battle escalates even further, she eventually disregards friendly fire and makes no attempt to avoid hitting her own men with fire from her Humongous Mecha (an Evil Knockoff of an Alliance mecha) she summons when defeated on foot while fighting Yonggary. When her submarine is found and on the verge of being destroyed, she snaps and orders it to nuke anywhere it possibly can before going down, nearly resulting in Ponyland's capital being nuked before the missile is shot down.
After her mecha is destroyed, Spring Heart attempts to kill the Tales Seven in a Last Villain Stand until she is ultimately defeated by them.
Her final fate is to be made immortal and be banished to a dead universe to live alone one year for every year of life she stole from someone else.
Heinousness
This is...complicated by the nature of the series: the only competition she has in her universe is her version of Kabuto (a literal Nazi death camp doctor in this reality) and King Onyx, Sombra's counterpart. Kabuto was hired by Chrysalis willingly and ultimately becomes a laughing stock (long story) and most of his villainy is implied by his former profession than shown onscreen, while Onyx is an Affably Evil Friendly Enemy who genuinely loves his wife and son. Onyx's mother Dark Crystal may count, but she's currently Sealed Evil in a Can and not made a physical appearance. Chrysalis is by far the most monstrous individual of her own universe and was beaten before she could extend beyond it. She's also the Knight of Cerebus for her universe, as until then it'd been completely in tone with the 1992 series.
However, in terms of the broader story showcased, Ispita, a dimension jumping Jerkass Genie, is explicitly the worst villain in this corner of the multiverse, and Lord Yomi from the Lighting the Darkness Arc is also a bad piece of work. Some Grimdark universes do exist in Multiverse, but their darkness is normally confined to their own reality, and more often than not gets beaten by its brighter counterparts (Rainbow Dash curbstomping Factory Rainbow Dash when the two meet to protect Scootaloo and Cheerilee defeating Garden Cheerilee before anyone died for example). This is a story where the top tier villains are capable of threatening entire universes.
The big thing is though, Chrysalis does as much as she does with very limited resources and would've done much worse if she hadn't been beaten. So I think the 'lack of resources' loophole applies here, as Ispita's Time Abyss of a Dimensional Traveler and Yomi was a world conquering demon in a universe without magic to fight him with while Chrysalis is just a rogue KGB agent with a small army limited to a single universe and still managed to do a huge amount of evil. And in her own universe and story, she's certainly the worst.
Mitigating factors
Unlike her prime self, there are none. Chrysalis doesn't give a darn for her own people, as shown by the fact them being nuked just to spite her enemies was considered acceptable to her.
Verdict
I'd say she counts, as the only real factor of conflict would be other villains might edge out but they ultimately have more resources.
Edited by RenegadeHero on Jul 11th 2018 at 7:56:11 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Doctor Lawrence Strickland
The Baron. That movie sound stupid as hell (get it, I am a genius of puns) but he seems to be enough of a asshole to count.
I just hate Satan Is Good stories where it portrays him as Muh Sexuality, I can get Satan Is Good when it does have actual virtues (Hi Snake of the Festival or SMT!Satan) but sexual freedom...nah, I just find it narmy.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jul 11th 2018 at 9:57:42 AM
Watch me destroying my country
The Baron.
Baron, Chrysalis and Strickland
- The Slaughter: The Lady of Darkness is a demon from prehistoric times who wishes to bring Hell on Earth. After a cult summons the Lady, she massacres them and makes their souls into her servants. She then kills a mother and her 8-year-old daughter and traps their souls in their house as a bridge between the worlds. After a group of college students show up to fix up her house, the Lady kills five of them and makes their corpses her slaves. When one of the surviving students kills herself in an attempt to stop the murders, the Lady takes over her body as the last step to ushering in the Apocalypse.
