![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Certainly.
"Epic Fails" is part of the standard template for SYWT pages; we've talked about changing it but haven't come to consensus yet.
Logic Girl
I'd rather get rid of it entirely.
So, the only major edits as of late to the page seem to be just one troper, The Trope Trek, adding and deleting some of the "page idea" redlinks at the bottom of the page. That section makes up most of the page's content, and doesn't really add anything to the page as a whole. What should be done about it?
TRS Wick Cleaning
I kind of have a problem with the suggested pages section. A lot of them don't explain why they're necessary or what they would entail. For instance, there's Write The Next Pitch Perfect. I'm a fan of Pitch Perfect, but I don't get what's so ground breaking about it or what counts as "The next Pitch Perfect." Is it a musical comedy? A comedy set in college? A musical comedy set in college? Or what about Write An Ordinary High School Student? What is so special about Ordinary High-School Student that we need a how to guide to help people write the trope?
Some of the suggested pages seem redundant. We have How to Avoid Being Anvilicious and How to Avoid An Author Tract. Aren't those the same thing?
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
On SoYouWantTo.Write A Yuri Manga, I would like to contest an entry on The Greats- Destiny of the Shrine Maiden. When it first came out it was beloved, and still is by some fans, but in recent times it has gotten a lot of Hype Backlash and criticism for outdated and questionable story decisions, such as bad pacing, a confusing plot with too many conflicting elements, and most infamously, Chikane literally raping main heroine Himeko only for her to be Easily Forgiven by Himeko for this and then they get reincarnated as sisters, with the implication that they get together anyway- all plot points that have become Discredited Tropes in modern Yuri. That last one, in particular- I’ve seen actual sexual assault survivors angrily blast the series for essentially having a character forgive and get together with her rapist. Bottom line, I feel like Destiny should be removed from the list because it is no longer as fondly-remembered as it used to be and is actually getting hate from some circles.
Edited by MasterN on Dec 7th 2022 at 12:05:10 PM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Yeah, that sounds like it should be removed. Although, quite a few of the "greats" lack context. I'm not familiar with any of them, though, so I can't do much about it.
TRS Wick Cleaning
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Which ones? I can comment them out and add notes asking for further context.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Loserswithwifi
The Extra Credit/Epic Fails section of Write a Crossover is overall decent, but it has some duds. I’d appreciate any extra input on them and what needs to be added or removed.
Extra Credit
- The novel Planet X is an officially published (though almost certainty out of continuity) crossover between the X-Men and Star Trek: The Next Generation. (And, yes, it mentions the uncanny resemblance between Xavier and Picard... despite being published before the movie was cast!). Doesn’t explain how it sets a good example for writing crossovers.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
- The novel contains references to comics that were published in which various groups of X-Men met characters from the Star Trek universe, including the cast of the original show.
- The police procedurals Homicide: Life on the Street and Law & Order crossed over so frequently that after Homicide ended, Det. John Munch actually became a character on Law & Order: SVU. Again, nothing about the work(s) being a good example for someone trying to write a crossover.
- Fighting games in which characters from different franchises - or even different companies - fight each other are commonplace. But Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe actually took the rare step of coming up with a story mode and with a plot that explains how and why the characters are fighting each other, and even goes the extra mile of explaining why characters like Superman, The Joker, Liu Kang, and Raiden are having fist fights on equal footing. Explains how an aspect of the work is done well, and notes a trend in how crossovers are often written.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
The Greats
- The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, both in comic and film format, is a rare example of an officially published Massive Multiplayer Crossover (it helps that most of the central characters are from works that are at least Older Than Radio, if not older, and thus exist in the public domain; works which aren't tend to be alluded to in dialogue), wherein practically every detail is taken from another work in an attempt to put together a cohesive fictional universe for all (or at least as close to all as possible) of human storytelling. The comic is by Alan Moore and Kevin O'Neal and is well worth a look. Not sure. It’s in-depth but it doesn’t really seem to be saying anything other than “XLOG is cool”.
- Kingdom Hearts took two works that sounded as if they definitely should not be crossed with each other (Eastern animation meets Western animation?! It Will Never Catch On!) and managed to make the final result great. Needs a bit more detail but telling the reader a Weird Crossover can still be a good crossover is good advice IMO.
- Super Robot Wars. Each game takes numerous Humongous Mecha anime, creates a whole new world where they can coexist, ties the original plots together (changing some plot devices if needed), and takes a look at unused materials (including model kits and novel adaptions) to see if there is something that can be used. The result is usually good. Explains why the crossover works well. Again, could do with a bit more relating to the writing/creating aspect, not just the work itself, but pretty good.
- JLA/Avengers gets right everything that Marvel vs DC (see below) gets wrong. Both franchises are respected right down to established differences in each universe's physics and geography being acknowledged. The difference in power levels between the universes is incoporated into the story instead of being handwaved aside. The story even dares to admit that certain characters would easily defeat others while allowing some of them to be smart enough to not fight for no reason. Explains itself well, needs no changes or additions.
The Epic Fails
- Whilst The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen in comic form is widely agreed to belong in the 'Greats' category, most would put the movie based on same squarely in the 'Epic Fails' column. Not only does it water down and dilute the original, it's also in many ways quite a poorly-told story. Nothing to with crossovers, all about how it’s a bad adaptation. The example under The Greats already mentioned the movie anyway, so this is redundant.
- Marvel vs DC has its moments, but is, in many ways, a textbook example of how not to do a crossover. Missteps included letting fan vote (i.e., popularity) determine who won several of the fights (infamously leading to Wolverine beating Lobo); seriously misjudging characters' respective power levels (Superman vs The Hulk) and/or popularity (Spider-Man vs ... the clone Superboy?); having any fight they couldn't figure out how to write happen offscreen (Wolverine/Lobo), end inconclusively (Darkseid/Thanos), or be decided by outside factors (Batman/Captain America, ends due to a random sewer tidal wave); and downright bizarre disrespect of the characters (suggesting that Wonder Woman could lift the hammer of Thor? Cool. Suggesting that she'd need it to put up a good fight against Storm... and would lose anyway? Insane). Explains how the work misses the mark and why.
- Cartoon All-Stars to the Rescue. Despite its promise, it was quite anvilicious and somewhat hypocritical - the special warned against using drugs, though it seems to have been made on drugs. Nothing to with advice on writing a crossover.
- Pooh's Adventures. Take Cartoon All-Stars To The Rescue, and make it even more insane and surreal. That's not even scratching the surface of this web-video phenomenon. Nothing do with anything.
Edited by loserswithwifi on Dec 23rd 2022 at 4:51:32 PM
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
I have mentioned the Demographic-Dissonant Crossover in the Pitfalls section. Let me know if it's good.
Edited by Nen_desharu on Dec 23rd 2022 at 4:24:11 AM
Kirby is awesome.
Loserswithwifi
Looks good to me.
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
Thanks.
Loserswithwifi
What’s the purpose of The Greats in the Extra Credit and Epic Fails section? It seems redundant with Extra Credit. I think it might be part of why people use that section for gushing and complaining; having two “good examples” sections makes it seem like it’s for rating works, not explaining how you can learn from the successes and failures of previous works.
I second renaming Epic Fails to Cautionary Tales. I also think that if the template ends up getting changed, we should add a few sentences above the EC/EF section warning against gushing and complaining.
Chew.
Here's my idea for a total rework of the "Extra Credit/The Greats/Epic Fails" section - merge them all into "Suggestions". Each example would explain specifically what is so good or bad about the work that's relevant to the page's topic. This would also allow examples that are a mixed bag of goods and bads in a way that the current setup doesn't allow, for instance "Journey to Trope Mountain is still beloved thirty years later for its well-paced plot and well-foreshadowed twist ending, but has received criticism for its flat and cliche characters." This would be a lot more analytical than the current system, which invites ZCE's and uncontested lionizings and demonizings.
Koichi really steals? No dignity.
The page for Be the Next Stephen King is really barebones.
If anyone familiar with King wants to take a shot at it, then feel free to. Else, I think it may be a cut.
TRS Wick Cleaning
RJ Savoy
Destiny of the Shrine Maiden and Maria Watches Over Us are not that well regarded today, but could perhaps be in an "Influential" section. Though the entries would have to explain what influence they had.
Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
Loserswithwifi
Ignore what I said about Extra Credit and The Greats being redundant; Write A Crossover has some of its The Greats entries under the main Extra Credit header, which confused me. No other page does it like that, so someone must have made a mistake at some point. I’ll fix it tomorrow.
I like the idea of replacing Extra Credit with Suggestions, although maybe we should come up with a snappier name if we make the change.
Chew.
x5 - The problem isn't just ZCE's, it's that the "Greats" and "Epic Fails" unilaterally decides that a work is good or bad, and is often full of gushing and bashing in a way that seems off mission for what's supposed to be our teaching tools section. It's also highly biased towards stereotypically troper-loved works like Avatar The Last Airbender (or formerly troper-loved works like Buffy and MLP Friendship is Magic) and against stereotypically troper-hated works like Bayformers and Twilight. Honestly, it kinda comes across like "We need more works like Avatar TLA and less works like Twilight", which is very much Opinion Myopia and not terribly helpful to anyone not in our little circle and not looking to make a carbon copy of Avatar or something like that and appeal to people who aren't tropers. I think the concept is very outdated, I mean, it's even called "Epic Fails", big 2008 energy there.
(Odd that it took you four months to respond to that...)
Chew.
Do you think it's worth setting up a crowner regarding Suggestions vs. Greats & Epic Fails? I feel like we've been talking about it for a while.
Koichi really steals? No dignity.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]")
Would "Cautionary Tales" be a better name?
Bigotry will NEVER be welcome on TV Tropes.