What constitutes a FreudianExcuse

I tried to ask in the "Is this an example?" thread but got no reply.

I always assumed that Freudian Excuse is not just any "good" excuse but something that has happened in childhood or adolescence and is related to family, friends or lack thereof (based on what actual Freud's teachings were about). The description on the trope page seems to support that:

• The most popular one is the Freudian Excuse: the villain had an abusive and particularly violent childhood (such as Abusive Parents, being bullied by peers, etc.) ... "his father beat him, and that's why he's an Omnicidal Maniac." A Freudian Excuse is often invoked to explain how someone who Used to Be a Sweet Kid became such a monster instead. A hero's classic rebuttal is "says the guy who became a hit man to work out his daddy issues."

The "Playing With" page seem to support that as well:

• Alice, a Serial Killer, kills people because she was abused by her parents and bullied by classmates as a child.
• Alice is a Jerkass, because she lost her parents at age 10 and was bullied until she learned she would be left alone/respected by being a jerk, which has since then become her primary mode of interaction.

However, "Laconic" description is way more broad: "A traumatic incident that makes a villain or any character the way they are."

As a result I regularly see examples like this:

• Freudian Excuse: His reason for turning to villainy was that he was a gifted inventor who created the device that Tony Stark funded, yet was fired for being callous and unstable precisely because he didn't get the recognition he wanted. It doesn't help that Tony still used the device after firing him, with many likely thinking it was him who invented it. (for Mysterio in Far From Home)
• Freudian Excuse: Thanos predicted that his home planet Titan would meet a terrible fate due to an Overpopulation Crisis and proposed his plan to wipe out half the population without bias to prevent it. He was called a madman for his efforts and eventually the very event he predicted and tried to prevent happened, destroying his home world. Thanos truly believes that if his people had just listened to him they would still be around, so he set off to prove them wrong by expanding his plan to a universal level. (for Thanos in Infinity War).

Are they appropriate (and the Freudian Excuse has a non-indicative name), or should they be deleted because being mistreated by the boss or witnessing your race die out as a fully formed adult may be an excuse, but it is not Freudian?

Edited by Asherinka on Jul 5th 2019 at 12:39:22 PM

The term is associated with Sigmund Freud who focused heavily on linking trauma with behavior, that our bad behavior is rooted in inadequate parents, childhood bullying, humiliating accidents, etc. The purest form focuses more on parents and sex but really anything can work because it's about cause and effect, the character connects a traumatic past event with their current irrational behavior. The more divergent the connection is the more absurd it gets (hate tacos because of parents divorce), but the more intuitive the connection can be good character development (refuses to walk alone because of once being mugged).

Although I have to ask, how broadly can this trope be applied? Based on the description, laconic, and playing with, the trope is supposedly limited to villainous motives, or at least unpleasant qualities, but I've seen this used to explain away any character quirks and phobias.

Edited by Adept on Jul 6th 2019 at 1:52:02 AM

The idea I think is supposed to be more the reason of an instinctual, almost involuntary personality trait. Even if it's what you could call a positive trait they will follow it down negative paths. If it's a simple "I just lost my brother, I have to protect the MacGuffin Girl at all costs" it's not really a Freudian Excuse because it's not an engrained personality trait and they aren't doing that to everyone in danger.

Ok, a character was a petty unrepentant jerk, he got fired by his employer, after that he became even more of a jerk and resorted to Engineered Heroics and full-scale villainy to get the praise he craves. Has being fired lead to an "engrained personality trait"?

I'd say, no.

Edited by Asherinka on Jul 13th 2019 at 12:12:59 PM

I mean, if it's not villainous, but it explains "how a character became this way", what trope it would be? I thought Freudian Excuse was that trope.

The most important element of a Freudian Excuse is that, whatever the trauma is, it happens during their childhood (or early teens), when their mind is still developing.

"A bad thing happened and that made me angry" is not a Freudian Excuse.

Freudian Excuse works for both good and evil characters.

That's what I was trying to say in the OP. The Trope seems to be misused a lot for events that happened to fully formed adults. Can I delete such entries?

Also, can we alter the Laconic to avoid further confusion?

For instance, "A traumatic incident in childhood or adolescence that makes a character the way they are."

Edited by Asherinka on Jul 13th 2019 at 11:35:06 AM

But who's to say that changes on character can't happen in adults?

Because otherwise where would we put adult examples? "Something in the past that makes them what they are" sounds general enough already, the "child/teen" part is working against it.

The point is that it is in the distant past and redefined who they are as a person, it's not just when they were a child or teenager. Someone in their 50's could be adverse to marriage because they were married for 6 months in their 20's and it ended poorly, that could constitute a Freudian Excuse.

If you read my first post, you'll see that the Laconic is very broad and does not match both the main trope page and the Playing With page which are quite specific. There are plenty of tropes that talk about adult traumas, they need not all be stacked up to Freudian Excuse.

OR the trope should be renamed into something else, because "adult" excuses are not Freudian, making it a Nonindicative Name.

"Freud believed that events in our childhood have a great influence on our adult lives, shaping our personality. For example, anxiety originating from traumatic experiences in a person's past is hidden from consciousness, and may cause problems during adulthood (in the form of neuroses)." (here)

Some argue adolescence ends at 25 . I agree that the trope could cover early adulthood. What about "A traumatic incident before a character reached maturity that made them the way they are."

Edited by Asherinka on Jul 14th 2019 at 10:24:21 PM

For the villain who got fired, I think Disproportionate Retribution is a better pick than Freudian Excuse. Particularly since it's clear that he was always an asshole to begin with. Also, that character was fired eight years before the events of that work, which disqualifies it for being "too recent".

With Thanos, conversely, I think that that example could stay as-is, considering that it took place in the MCU's distant past, well before Thanos started killing tons of people. Titan's demise and his failure to prevent it is the core component that Thanos's villainy is built around.

Edited by KingClark on Jul 14th 2019 at 2:28:13 PM

Yeah I agree! The trope itself really seems to focus on traumas in childhood, that was just specifically what Freud's theories were about. But on the other hand, other traumatic experiences that happen later, and that inform a character's character are really common enough theme in fiction, so I wonder if there should be a new super-trope with those other cases, where Freudian Excuse would be a subtrope. There are enough examples of the latter to form a trope, so throwing those two together might just be a too long list of examples in the end.

But for now I think that the main description for Freudian Excuse should be favored over the laconic description, and I also agree that the example of Thanos should stay.

"a new super-trope with those other cases, where Freudian Excuse would be a subtrope. There are enough examples of the latter to form a trope, so throwing those two together might just be a too long list of examples in the end."

I agree

Without going in-depths into the trope's description, I do think the Mysterio example is definitely misuse, as it establishes that Quentin Beck was already unstable to begin with (unless you buy in the argument that it was a pretext by Tony Stark to fire him, which coming from the mouth of the Big Bad is extremely doubtful). It can fall into Disproportionate Retribution, although even there I would consider it arguable.

As for Thanos, it's not as clear-cut. The demise of Titan definitely shaped Thanos's viewpoint, although the fact he was at the time ready to propose such drastic measures points out he was already an extremist by then. And Endgame strongly suggest his whole crusade was more about proving he was right than truly saving the universe, so again the "traumatic event" excuse seems flimsy.

I think there might be a related trope regarding someone taking a recent experience that is influencing their actions (and does not really fit any of the Revenge Tropes like Mysterio because that is a one-for-one explanation), but I don't think it would be as simple as "Freudian Excuse except for adults." It would probably be closer to something like Compressed Vice or Single-Issue Wonk.

For characters like Beck, the applicable trope for what he does in FFH is Motive Rant.

Freudian Excuse is meant to include formative experiences in childhood, not any justification for turning to evil. Start of Darkness is when an episode focuses on a character's turn to evil, rather than it just being explained through backstory.

Hmm. Create Your Own Villain might apply, since Tony's actions are shown to have been at least indirectly responsible for several people in the MCU turning evil.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 15th 2019 at 9:34:59 AM

KingClark amended the Laconic and I removed the example on Mysterio's page per discussion.

As for Thanos, I don't see any difference with Mysterio. He was an adult, he proposed to exterminate half of his species, was denied that, his species died out, he took that as a confirmation he should exterminate half of living beings. I don't think that constitues a Freudian Excuse as he already was an Ax-Crazy adult. He has one in the comics - in childhood and adolescense he was ostracised for being born different (a deviant), but it is skipped over in the movies.

Edited by Asherinka on Jul 16th 2019 at 9:25:18 PM

I've recently removed the following examples of "Freudian Excuse":

Film:

• In Carry On Henry, Henry VIII had his fourth wife beheaded because she wasn't up for sex. His new one was great because she was French, until he kissed her and tasted the garlic that she ate to stimulate sexual activity, and demanded an annulment instead of just simply asking her not to eat any garlic.
• In Cinderella (2015), Tremaine goes on a small Motive Rant to Ella, saying she first married for love and power and both of them died. Since then she's done everything in hopes to clawing further up to the top, even if it needs cruelty.
• Toward the end of Carrie, Margaret White reveals the reason she hates her own daughter so much in her Motive Rant: her ex-husband was an abusive rapist and Carrie was the product of him forcing himself on Margaret while drunk.
• Dr. Strangelove: General Ripper's reason for launching a nuclear attack on Russia wasn't because Washington was under communist siege as "Wing Attack Plan R" would have called for. It wasn't. It's because he was suddenly impotent and he blamed the Russians for it (some Insane Troll Logic about fluoridation of the water).
• The rabid Dean Vernon, as revealed by Carl the janitor, is belligerent because he thought being a teacher would be an easy job.
• Daido Katsumi/Kamen Rider Eternal, the Big Bad of Kamen Rider Double: A-to-Z, the Gaia Memories of Fate, tried to turn Fuuto into a city of the undead and his excuse given in the film was that he Came Back Wrong. However, later it's explained in W Returns: Eternal that was only a part of a much more solid excuse. He tried to save a village of psychics from a Mad Scientist named Dr. Prospect and they all died because he unknowingly triggered Prospect's failsafe. Prospect's actions effectively drove Katsumi completely insane and turned him into what he'd become in the movie, his actions being a Roaring Rampage of Revenge on the Museum and Foundation X, both of which helped Prospect with his project.
• In the Godzilla movie Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster, Godzilla explains (translated by 2 fairies called the Shobijin) the reason why he hates humanity is because they attacked him unprovoked. Rodan agree with him as well.

Marvel Cinematic Universe:

• Dooley's casual sexism towards Agent Carter apparently stems from his wife's infidelity. (MCU: S.H.I.E.L.D. – Strategic Scientific Reserve)
• His wife, father and son were crushed by Sokovia's debris when it fell from the skies. (MCU: Other Supervillains)
• Losing his family is what drives him to seek out immortality at any cost. (MCU: Dark Dimension; to be more specific, Kaecilius has lost his son and wife)

Dragon Age:

• He's got another one: he's under constant pressure to keep Justice under control. He's losing. (Dragon Age – Recurring Party Members: Part Two; Justice is a Fade spirit and an Enemy Within for the character; he got possessed by Justice willingly as an adult).
• He often snaps at Merrill because she's a (rather naive) blood mage, leading to some nasty moments, especially after her personal quests. But if the player pays attention to some of their conversations, his reasons become clear:
  (during Act 1) You have all the freedom none of our kind enjoy, and you throw it away. On what?
  (after "A Bitter Pill") You had a life. You had a family. And you abandoned them to chase after ghosts. (Dragon Age II – Companions.. the "excuse" here is envy)
• Losing the love of his life to his greed has made him a very bitter man. (Dragon Age II – Hawke Estate).
• He used to be a Templar in the Tevinter Chantry. He strongly believed that mages and non-mages could live in peace and worked with a mage friend to reform the Imperium. However, once that mage friend became a Magister, the mage became just as corrupt as the rest of Tevinter, shattering Lambert's idealism. (Dragon Age – Novels.. that is Cynicism Catalyst)
• This almost certainly stems from her treatment at the hands of her late husband. (a Pothole on (Dragon Age – Recurring Party Members: Part One).

And this is just one of the trope subpages and character pages for two franchises I know very well. Freudian Excuse has 9639 inbound links, and I feel that the misuse is massive. Is it worth starting a clean-up thread for the trope?

PS The following was added to Square Peg, Round Trope:

• Freudian Excuse is for traumatic experiences in a character's childhood or youth that have a great influence on their adult life. Tropers often latch on to the "excuse" part and misuse it for any unfortunate event that explains character's behavior, such as being raped, losing one's job or family as a fully formed adult.

Edited by Asherinka on Dec 8th 2019 at 9:07:25 PM

Like we said before, if we insist to latch on "it happening to below-adult people" specifically, then we need to make a supertrope that covers everyone else.

I'm thinking of, like, immortal characters whose personality is affected by a lot of what they've faced, even as adults.

Start of Darkness, Dark and Troubled Past, Used to Be a Sweet Kid...

they aren't inherently about "their (bad) past explains their behavior" like FE is, tho.

Why? I thought they are.

A lot of wrong FE examples are covered by various Revenge tropes, such as Crusading Widower (Widow), You Killed My Father (Mother), Roaring Rampage of Revenge etc.

Some examples could be moved to Cynicism Catalyst.

Then there are Rape as Backstory, Domestic Abuse, various Betrayal Tropes.

Upd There is also Driven to Villainy which seems to cover adult characters becoming evil, but has a murky description and seems to overlap with Tragic Villain ("A villain by circumstance, not by choice").

And there is a Motivation Index.

Edited by Asherinka on Dec 10th 2019 at 12:28:37 PM

I'd argue that motivation is distinct from mindset, but apart from that, the tropes you listed all sound helpful.