Discussion Main / UberMensch

Why doesn't the Ubermensch article have a definition of what the Last Man is? There should be some clarification on the Last man, but I don't know how to get that in the article, seeing as the article is locked.

Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Laconic, started by Elanorea on Jun 15th 2011 at 11:42:54 PM

Why exactly is this page locked?

I'd like to propose Discord as an example, because:

• He rejects the principles of friendship followed by Equestria as a whole.
• He spreads his beliefs, even among the Element of Harmony bearers, then across all of Equestria.
• And he has Twilight Sparkle as a Last Man counterpart.

It was rejected on the Edit Locked Pages thread, though, and I want to know why.

Superman should NOT be the image. He is actually antithetical to the concept!

Refer to the video "Gods, the Übermensch, and the "Unrelatable" Nature of Superman" by Kyle Kallgren of Brows Held High. Friedrich Nietzsche actually hated the guy who's philosophy superman is built around.

I don't really feel that I understand the concept well enough to write up a draft example, but from what I do understand, Andrew Ryan of Bioshock seems like he should be on here somewhere...

There's a deconstruction in [1] that merits mention: Palpatine convinces Anakin to rely on The Dark Side by using the argument that "good is a point of view." Embracing that belief (and, thus, The Dark Side) drives him to slaughter younglings in the hopes of pleasing his master and, by so doing, preserving the one person he cares about. These actions result in her losing the will to live, causing Dramatic Irony Played for Drama to emphasize that this mentality drove him to jump off the slippery slope.

Just to point out that the Mayor in Buffy wants to become a Chtulhu Lite Eldritch Abomination to "bring order" to Sunnydale, not the world

Whoever responsible for moderating this page, there are some typos on Soren Kierkegaard comparison. SN suppose to be SK.

I believe this could belong on either Characterization Tropes or Characters as Device. Do I have to get permission to add a trope to a particular index?

Siegfried from The Ring Cycle is intended as the Ubermensch. He defeats Wotan and breaks their spear, which represents the law, throwing off the old order.

I feel that Feanor from "The Silmarillion" should go here. Though mentioned he is an Anti-Hero Type IV.

Where the hell is Andrew Ryan on this page?? Seriously, I find it hard to think of a more obvious example of the Ubermensch theory in recent popular culture.

I'm currently reading "Thus Spake; Zarathustra" by Nietzche and I absolutely do NOT see anything about "someone who lives by their own moral codes". There is NOTHING about that.

First of all, Zarathustra, the main character, is advocating the absolute opposite. While he advocates "living for your own self-satisfaction", he specifically points out that "morals", the concept of "justice", and "identity to others causes" create "self-complacency" and that you should IGNORE that and live only for what personally satisfies you in life and what morals help you do that.

He advocates going AGAINST ALL religious morals because his criticism is that religious people think in simplified ways and that anything beyond "simple" is "unholy" to a religious mind.

The soundtrack

Out of interest, could it be added that N's original work inspired Strauss to write the orchestral piece Also Sprach Zarathustra, which is both a musical re-stating of the idea of the Superman and a coded Shout-Out to Freemasonic ritual? (Freemason mysticism in its most evolved form seeks to convey the concept that the Superman is the next stage of human evolution and will arise from suitably aware human beings whose minds are steered in the correct direction - ie, Freemasons).

The relevance of the musical piece in our day is that the opening bars were used as soundtrack to the Apollo moon landings - the "Der—Der—Der - DA-DUM!(bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang)..." bit, thus establishing a direct link between the concept of the Superman and Neil Armstrong strolling on the lunar surface. Indeed, the philosophical concept of the Superman could be interpreted as "one small step for man - one giant leap for Mankind".

Just a thought...

This page will always be perma-locked, I take it?

Could Siegfried from the Ring Cycle be added to this page? He has those qualities and certainly was connected to the idea of Ubermensch. He symbolically creates a morality apart from the Gods by shattering Wotan's spear.

Would someone please add this to the main article under Video Games?

• In Armored Core Verdict Day, the 'Foundation Man' seems to fit this trope perfectly, with a healthy dose of Blue-and-Orange Morality thrown in for good measure - he claims to be under the distinct impression that mankind is inherently insane, and refuses any suggestion that his actions are in any way wrong; his ultimate aims remain ambiguous, however. The closest thing to an explanation that we get to his actions comes at the very end of the game, when he says:

There's a small mistake in the philosophy folder. All instances of SN should be changed to SK, for Soren Kierkegaard. The original writer mixed up the F Ns of Friedrich with Soren's S Ks. SN would be Soren Nietzsche, and I think BOTH of them would disagree strongly.

"The name came from the concept about ordinary humanity believing there would be no morals or reasons to live if there was no Other to define morality and reason. Transcending this illusion makes one an "over-man"." I do not understand this. Who is this other?

Before I request to get this added, does it fit the trope or would it be better on The Social Darwinist?

• Caesar in Fallout: New Vegas. The player can challenge his methods and ideology, to which he responds with a monologue on Hegelian dialectics, essentially arguing that the destruction of the bloated, feeble NCR by military force is the natural order of things, and any moral judgement is irrelevant.

Haruhi Suzumiya cualifies for this. After all, she has a Blue and Orange Morality, is the charismatic leader of the SOS brigade and she usually dreams of expanding the brigade's influence to the whole world.

Can we add Aleister Crowley from A Certain Magical Index? He describes himself as of the Aeon of Horus, one who rejects the old laws and wants to create a new world with new laws. He refers to most of the other characters, mostly the Christians, as being of the Aeon of Osiris, saying they are stuck in the old laws and unable to advance like him.

Could we change the image? i think the image doesnt explain so much the concept.

I want to edit Redcloak; his desire to replace the morals of the world with hiss own come close, but he does it in the name of his religion; if anything the dark one is probably the ubermensch.

I've taken Zero Context Examples to discussion. If you wish to add them back, write a proper description of how they fit the trope, and request an edit in this thread.

• Treize Khushrenada from Mobile Suit Gundam Wing, and possibly Zechs Merquise as well.
• Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny has Gilbert Durandal.
• Ovan from Dot Hack Roots.
• Char Aznable and Paptimus Scirocco from Mobile Suit Gundam and Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam.
• Dewey Novak from Eureka Seven.
• Aion from Chrono Crusade (an uberdevil).
• Dartz from Yu-Gi-Oh and Saiou Takuma/Sartorius (Dartz's Expy) in YuGiOhGX.
• Hibari Kyoya from Katekyō Hitman Reborn!, though he prefers to limit his Ubermensch-ing to his beloved small town.
• Chao Lingshen in Mahou Sensei Negima!.
• Shou Hazama/Niikura from Akumetsu uses this trope.

This is potentially a YMMV trope along with Nietzsche Wannabe, since whether or not an individual is one or the other depends entirely upon whether or not the particular individual's beliefs are portrayed/viewed favorably.

So, does anyone else think that the description of this topic got over-pruned? I'm all for streamlining it, mind, but this seems like too much.

I think we should add Blue-and-Orange Morality to the "Compare" list.

And on that note, I was wondering whether Jesus Christ would qualify for an Ubermensch?

I started a discussion, so I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

What do you think?

The philosophical concept Trivia/ Analysis page (it was more of the later) should not have been cut, we have no right to summarize such a complex philosophical character type in such a way without any reference to it's original context. You cannot have the Ubermench archetype without the philosophical backing, for it it does not work any other way.

Nor did I see any real reason to have this page locked, I'm pretty active on this page and I never saw any real misuse or edit wars, just the eventual dwindling down of the concept to a shadow of what the trope means until it had almost nothing to do with the philosophical concept/ original meaning at all.

Why the hell was the analysis page deleted? What if someone wanted to use it to research the concept in a non-complicated way? Not cool guys.

This trope should also mention that the word "Übermensch" is older than Nietzsche. In fact, Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe uses it in his Faust, line 490.

Could we please add a link to The Anti-Nihilist after "Compare:"?

So it's kind of bothering me that the Compare/Contrast list is almost exclusively full of villain tropes, up to and including Complete Monster. But the whole point is that they've developed their own moral code, and there's quite a few heroes in the list. At the very LEAST, Blue-and-Orange Morality should be mentioned somewhere.

Also, Compelling Voice is in there for some reason. Unless it's via some sort of trope-association with Lelouch, I can't figure out why.

Hmm. I'm not sure any of the existing Watchmen material fits. It appears to start by mistaking the trope for the works of Friedrich Nietzsche and goes from there. The trope is pretty straightforward: "a character, who rejects the norms of society and lives by his own moral code." Several characters from Watchmen fit like slipper, but this example needs a re-write from scratch. I'm gonna pull the natter-bundle to discussion: if anyone would like to propose a replacement please post completed markup in the locked page edit request thread.

• Watchmen: The villain responsible for The Comedian's killing. The Comedian and Rorshach were his Last Men.
  • Arguably, Ozymandias was the antithesis of this. Being ubermensch is all about defining your own moral code and through it your identity and then sticking to it, whereas the Big Bad was willing to sink to any level to accomplish his plans.
    • Which is consistent with following an ends-based morality. It's not specified how he came to such a code, but it's implied that he put thought into it.
    • By his code, perhaps it is immoral to shirk from a lesser evil if you can prevent a greater one.

The phrase "Last Man" is used many times on this page, yet it is never really explained in any detail. What exactly does it mean?

Irrelevant, I know, but that picture doesn't so much say Ubermensch as "Wot, wot, eh! Spot of tea?" Probably the mustache and eyepiece. Holy fuck, it's Theodore Roosevelt. Holy shit.

I remember that Nietzsche also said that the Ubermensch should have a taste for war. Could someone PLEASE add this fact in a more suitable way since this article is already a Wall of Text as it is and I wouldn't know where to properly place it ot properly word it.

Can you add Byronic Hero to the compare list? The Byronic Hero page says that the two often overlap, as they are both people who view themselves as superior to the next guy, and live outside of the laws and boundaries of others.

Examples need details. These examples won't be used as-is. Please see How To Write An Example for more info.

• The Authority.
• DC's Black Adam.
• Marvel's Namor the Sub-Mariner.

Just remember that every Ubermensch is a Nietzsche Wannabe in the eyes of his critics, and every Nietzsche Wannabe is an Ubermensch in his own mind.

I know further philosophy discussion could only mean an Edit War, but can we at least put this description:

"A Übermensch character requires three things; an antisocial mindset rejecting the norms of society for his own morality, inhuman charisma, and a grand vision for a better world (it doesn't have to be a Utopia, but any grand goal will do as long as it is too much for any ordinary person to handle)."

Also, in the Compare/ Contrast paragraph, why no link to Visionary Villain (which as mentioned in that trope page, the Übermensch can actually be if done properly), The Unfettered (which together with The Fettered provided a view on what makes a Übermensch), Blue-and-Orange Morality (as one troper said should be mentioned somewhere, after all, you're dealing with somebody who devised his own alien moral code for himself), and/or a Wikipedia link to Nietzsche's own philosophical concept (to avoid confusion and thus further edit warring)

Also, does the picture of Superman in there have any purpose? It looks more like a literal "Übermensch = Superman" interpetation.

Ignore, figured it out.

I think the current definition (when Fast Eddie weeded out, of course the natter had to be removed, but when a SINGLE PARAGRAPH is weeded out even when it's not a Wall of Text that's crossing the line) actually applies more to anyone with an antisocial mindset you can name than to a specific character type. Let's make the definition more specifically Nietzschean, hence my emphasis on the Ubermensch overcoming angst through living by his own grand goal and purpose in this life (not just a moral code) despite being just as antisocial. (without the philosophy natter, of course, that goes to Trivia).

I still don't understand why the english name ist "Ubermensch". In German, it is "Übermensch", and there is a difference between "ü" and "u". If you can't use an Umlaut for whatever reason, "ü" is replaced by "ue". PS: The other wiki does it right. PPS: Yes, I was just in the mood for trolling, ignore me if you like.

Can the fighting narcissist and the ubermensch overlap?