Main Uber Mensch Discussion

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10:08:57 AM Jul 18th 2016
Why exactly is this page locked?
07:08:56 PM Jul 26th 2016
That's what I've been wondering (for over 6 months).
03:04:42 AM Jul 27th 2016
edited by jormis29
The reasons are explained on the Locked Pages page
05:40:17 AM May 29th 2016
Superman should NOT be the image. He is actually antithetical to the concept!

Refer to the video "Gods, the Übermensch, and the "Unrelatable" Nature of Superman" by Kyle Kallgren of Brows Held High. Friedrich Nietzsche actually hated the guy who's philosophy superman is built around.
04:18:03 AM Jun 4th 2016
It's a picture of Nietzsche wearing a Superman-esque outfit that's meant to parody the actual character (possibly while suggesting that a normal human with Nietzsche's morals would be just as unstoppable).
11:48:38 AM Jan 17th 2016
edited by TrulyDeceptive
There's a deconstruction in [1] that merits mention: Palpatine convinces Anakin to rely on The Dark Side by using the argument that "good is a point of view." Embracing that belief (and, thus, The Dark Side) drives him to slaughter younglings in the hopes of pleasing his master and, by so doing, preserving the one person he cares about. These actions result in her losing the will to live, causing Dramatic Irony Played for Drama to emphasize that this mentality drove him to jump off the slippery slope.
12:52:28 PM Apr 18th 2015
Just to point out that the Mayor in Buffy wants to become a Chtulhu Lite Eldritch Abomination to "bring order" to Sunnydale, not the world
06:25:35 PM Feb 14th 2015
edited by Kenpachi_Ramasama
Whoever responsible for moderating this page, there are some typos on Soren Kierkegaard comparison. SN suppose to be SK.
02:02:57 AM Feb 15th 2015
You ought to ask here. Moderators do not routinely follow discussion pages.
12:35:46 AM Dec 11th 2014
Siegfried from The Ring Cycle is intended as the Ubermensch. He defeats Wotan and breaks their spear, which represents the law, throwing off the old order.
11:56:53 PM Nov 30th 2014
I feel that Feanor from "The Silmarillion" should go here. Though mentioned he is an Anti-Hero Type IV.
03:24:54 AM Dec 1st 2014
Sorry, I am not seeing at all how Feanor would fit this trope. And "types" are retired.
03:26:05 AM Sep 17th 2014
I don't really feel that I understand the concept well enough to write up a draft example, but from what I do understand, Andrew Ryan of Bioshock seems like he should be on here somewhere...
02:02:13 PM Feb 9th 2016
I agree, I don't understand enough to feel comfortable about it, but I think that he founded Rapture at least on somewhat Nietzschean ideas, such as having no master or anyone to tell you right or wrong. Of course, I think Rapture falls flat on its face for multiple reasons, part of which is that he's content with being the only Ubermensch and uses that individual morality sell to a Messianic Archetype image.
02:25:45 AM Sep 4th 2014

The soundtrack

Out of interest, could it be added that N's original work inspired Strauss to write the orchestral piece Also Sprach Zarathustra, which is both a musical re-stating of the idea of the Superman and a coded Shout-Out to Freemasonic ritual? (Freemason mysticism in its most evolved form seeks to convey the concept that the Superman is the next stage of human evolution and will arise from suitably aware human beings whose minds are steered in the correct direction - ie, Freemasons).

The relevance of the musical piece in our day is that the opening bars were used as soundtrack to the Apollo moon landings - the "Der—Der—Der - DA-DUM!(bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang)..." bit, thus establishing a direct link between the concept of the Superman and Neil Armstrong strolling on the lunar surface. Indeed, the philosophical concept of the Superman could be interpreted as "one small step for man - one giant leap for Mankind".

Just a thought...
11:24:09 AM Aug 27th 2014
This page will always be perma-locked, I take it?
11:33:14 AM Aug 27th 2014
Well, if the tendency of the page to attract essays about the Nietzschean Übermensch has stopped you can ask here.
11:32:29 AM Jun 29th 2014
Could Siegfried from the Ring Cycle be added to this page? He has those qualities and certainly was connected to the idea of Ubermensch. He symbolically creates a morality apart from the Gods by shattering Wotan's spear.
04:11:26 PM Feb 12th 2014
edited by
Would someone please add this to the main article under Video Games?

01:41:28 AM Feb 13th 2014
You'll have to ask here.
08:28:20 PM Oct 17th 2013
I'm currently reading "Thus Spake; Zarathustra" by Nietzche and I absolutely do NOT see anything about "someone who lives by their own moral codes". There is NOTHING about that.

First of all, Zarathustra, the main character, is advocating the absolute opposite. While he advocates "living for your own self-satisfaction", he specifically points out that "morals", the concept of "justice", and "identity to others causes" create "self-complacency" and that you should IGNORE that and live only for what personally satisfies you in life and what morals help you do that.

He advocates going AGAINST ALL religious morals because his criticism is that religious people think in simplified ways and that anything beyond "simple" is "unholy" to a religious mind.
08:39:04 PM Oct 17th 2013
Probably a Thomas Common translation.
09:47:35 AM Oct 19th 2013
The one I'm reading? I've looked-up Nietzche's life. This seems pretty accurate and consistent with the beliefs he conveys through philosophy classes I've taken regarding him and his own quotes about his beliefs. Unless you meant the translation on this site is the Commons version, in which case, my bad for not understanding what you meant.

Also, I'm not seeing too much hatred of Christianity as was criticized. There's anti-religion but most of his character's preaching seem to advocate a philosophy that's antithetical to Buddhism. Nietzche seems to be displaying a hatred of women (which I feel makes him hypocritical in his message) and a hatred of not going with what you feel satisfies you in life (which I found interesting).
03:18:10 AM Sep 17th 2014
I don't see how what you describe is incompatible with the description "living by ones own moral code". Even if the person themselves doesn't consider it a "moral code", they still HAVE one: the one that says "morals are an illusion; ignore them". I mean, you use the word "morals" in your own description of how such a person would live. I'm not sure it's possible for a sentient being to have a philosophy of life and ethics that couldn't be described as a "moral code" of some sort.
03:14:37 PM Jul 31st 2013
edited by
There's a small mistake in the philosophy folder. All instances of SN should be changed to SK, for Soren Kierkegaard. The original writer mixed up the F Ns of Friedrich with Soren's S Ks. SN would be Soren Nietzsche, and I think BOTH of them would disagree strongly.
08:43:37 PM Jun 29th 2013
I'd like to propose Discord as an example, because:

  • He rejects the principles of friendship followed by Equestria as a whole.
  • He spreads his beliefs, even among the Element of Harmony bearers, then across all of Equestria.
  • And he has Twilight Sparkle as a Last Man counterpart.

It was rejected on the Edit Locked Pages thread, though, and I want to know why.
06:09:33 AM Jul 15th 2016
I don't know, but it sounds like if you could say that, then every shallow For the Evulz villain would count.
07:55:36 AM Jan 27th 2013
I want to edit Redcloak; his desire to replace the morals of the world with hiss own come close, but he does it in the name of his religion; if anything the dark one is probably the ubermensch.
10:21:27 PM Jan 21st 2013
Could we change the image? i think the image doesnt explain so much the concept.
08:12:48 AM Mar 2nd 2013
If anything, it's a subversion: Superman, even in his Red Son portrayal, is a peasant son of peasants, who lives in the way his parents programmed him. It is a motif in elseworld stories that Superman's morality is dramatically dependent on who raised him, and where: even at his most rutheless or independent, he's not portrayed as creating his own morality, but as reacting to events that push him around. The man literally named "overman", is, in fact, simply an outstanding example of a normal man who just happens to be very strong. Also, he intrinsically acknowledges that he is Unfit for Greatness, and thus very wisely keeps strictly to a Small Steps Hero ethic. Of course, his enemies (and the writers, but where's the difference) expend quite a lot of effort and ingenuity in tempting him to stray from that; whenever he does, he invariably achieves martial victory and crushing moral defeat simultaneously.
05:18:27 PM Jan 16th 2013
Can we add Aleister Crowley from A Certain Magical Index? He describes himself as of the Aeon of Horus, one who rejects the old laws and wants to create a new world with new laws. He refers to most of the other characters, mostly the Christians, as being of the Aeon of Osiris, saying they are stuck in the old laws and unable to advance like him.
08:14:35 AM Mar 2nd 2013
The mummification imagery jives very well with Nietzsche's comments on Western Philosophy (until him, that is) and its stillness fetishism.
10:27:02 PM Nov 30th 2012
Why doesn't the Ubermensch article have a definition of what the Last Man is? There should be some clarification on the Last man, but I don't know how to get that in the article, seeing as the article is locked.
08:15:18 AM Mar 2nd 2013
Before getting it there, how about you suggest it here, and then we can iron it out before adding it?
06:10:58 AM Jul 15th 2016
For my part, I can't help you there, but I'd point out that the examples keep referring to it, so its not being explained is a real problem.
01:59:22 PM Oct 12th 2012
Haruhi Suzumiya cualifies for this. After all, she has a Blue and Orange Morality, is the charismatic leader of the SOS brigade and she usually dreams of expanding the brigade's influence to the whole world.
08:22:21 AM Mar 2nd 2013
Her boisterous claims are contradicted by her actions: she holds herself back a lot, and her behaviour is much more focused on there-and-now expressions of enthusiasm, and on bending only the weak and the willing to her will (initially, the Brigade only humour her out of sheer existential terror). Even without resorting to supernatural reality warping, with just her intelligence, charisma, stamina, and athletic ability, there is much she would be able to achieve, if she only stopped to think it through.

Saying she's got Blue And Orange Morality is giving her too much credit; she just has a very strong case of brattish immaturity, coupled with the overflowing energy and thoughtlessness needed to actually act on it; as fas as I'm concerned, this overwhelming level of agency is the main difference between her, and, say, Bella Swan. Well, that and the fact that she undergoes Character Development towards maturity and adulthood as the story advances, while Bella becomes more and more childish and dependent as her tale unfolds.
09:19:33 AM Aug 25th 2012
edited by johnnye
Before I request to get this added, does it fit the trope or would it be better on The Social Darwinist?

02:44:10 AM Aug 26th 2012
The Social Darwinist, not Übermensch
08:23:12 AM Mar 2nd 2013
edited by TheHandle
I'd even say this would fit better on Hobbes Was Right than either of those.

The reason Caesar would fit in Ubermensch is that he recovered elements an ancient, irrelevant morality system, concocted his own, new, vigorous system from that, as opposed to the relative ideological void of the NCR, and leads a group into conquest through sheer charisma, with a vision in mind. It's also made rather clear that he's the only one in the Legion's leadership who actually understands this code well and adheres to it strictly: the others either completely miss the point or just don't care; when he dies, his system seems doomed to collapse. His morality is kind of half-baked, but "thinking it through" is not a pre-requisite to being Übermensch.
01:01:25 AM Aug 24th 2012
edited by lu127
I've taken Zero Context Examples to discussion. If you wish to add them back, write a proper description of how they fit the trope, and request an edit in this thread.

04:25:41 PM Apr 29th 2012
This is potentially a YMMV trope along with Nietzsche Wannabe, since whether or not an individual is one or the other depends entirely upon whether or not the particular individual's beliefs are portrayed/viewed favorably.
03:26:54 AM Jul 4th 2012
Only if the character's motives are not shown or explored in any way. A Nietzsche Wannabe HAS no beliefs, whereas an ubermensch CHOOSES his beliefs. If the work never takes the time to show us which one of those categories a character falls into, they may appear remarkably similar, but theoretically, a character adhering to the exact, strict letter of the Bible—without that fact ever, in any way being communicated to the audience—would also appear that way.
01:56:17 PM Dec 26th 2011
I think we should add Blue and Orange Morality to the "Compare" list.

And on that note, I was wondering whether Jesus Christ would qualify for an Ubermensch?

I started a discussion, so I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter.

What do you think?
07:24:35 AM Dec 18th 2011
So, does anyone else think that the description of this topic got over-pruned? I'm all for streamlining it, mind, but this seems like too much.
04:50:32 AM Dec 23rd 2011
Me too.
10:08:56 AM Apr 7th 2012
Yeah. A lot of the page is just babble about concepts we don't understand now.
05:37:46 PM Dec 4th 2011
"The name came from the concept about ordinary humanity believing there would be no morals or reasons to live if there was no Other to define morality and reason. Transcending this illusion makes one an "over-man"." I do not understand this. Who is this other?
04:51:42 AM Dec 23rd 2011
Other refers to objective sources and needing peer pressure from others. In Nietzsche's case, this refers to Religion.
08:55:59 AM Mar 2nd 2013
Perhaps a "hottip" would be adequate.
03:06:22 AM Nov 23rd 2011
Could we please add a link to The Anti-Nihilist after "Compare:"?
07:17:32 PM Oct 28th 2011
Why the hell was the analysis page deleted? What if someone wanted to use it to research the concept in a non-complicated way? Not cool guys.
04:52:41 AM Dec 23rd 2011
10:50:25 PM Oct 27th 2011
Hmm. I'm not sure any of the existing Watchmen material fits. It appears to start by mistaking the trope for the works of Friedrich Nietzsche and goes from there. The trope is pretty straightforward: "a character, who rejects the norms of society and lives by his own moral code." Several characters from Watchmen fit like slipper, but this example needs a re-write from scratch. I'm gonna pull the natter-bundle to discussion: if anyone would like to propose a replacement please post completed markup in the locked page edit request thread.

  • Watchmen: The villain responsible for The Comedian's killing. The Comedian and Rorshach were his Last Men.
    • Arguably, Ozymandias was the antithesis of this. Being ubermensch is all about defining your own moral code and through it your identity and then sticking to it, whereas the Big Bad was willing to sink to any level to accomplish his plans.
      • Which is consistent with following an ends-based morality. It's not specified how he came to such a code, but it's implied that he put thought into it.
      • By his code, perhaps it is immoral to shirk from a lesser evil if you can prevent a greater one.

04:53:51 PM Oct 15th 2011
The phrase "Last Man" is used many times on this page, yet it is never really explained in any detail. What exactly does it mean?
07:29:35 PM Oct 23rd 2011
edited by AbraSliver
Simply: In the future, most people will be (to dumb down the concept) apathetic and lazy, without any substantial meaning to their lives. They will wake up, go to work, get home, watch TV while eating dinner, sleep, and repeat. To quote Wikipedia, "a weak-willed individual, one who is tired of life, takes no risks, seeks only comfort and security".

Instead of grabbing life by the horns and enjoying it while he can like the Ubermensch does (or is supposed to do), the Last man responds to the 'nihilism' of 'God is dead' with "Why should I do anything? It's worthless anyway."

This, of course, is simplified. But it does get the heart of the matter expressed.
07:56:32 PM Aug 8th 2011
Examples need details. These examples won't be used as-is. Please see How to Write an Example for more info.

  • The Authority.
  • DC's Black Adam.
  • Marvel's Namor the Sub-Mariner.
12:45:12 AM Aug 8th 2011
edited by Vyctorian
The philosophical concept Trivia/ Analysis page (it was more of the later) should not have been cut, we have no right to summarize such a complex philosophical character type in such a way without any reference to it's original context. You cannot have the Ubermench archetype without the philosophical backing, for it it does not work any other way.

Nor did I see any real reason to have this page locked, I'm pretty active on this page and I never saw any real misuse or edit wars, just the eventual dwindling down of the concept to a shadow of what the trope means until it had almost nothing to do with the philosophical concept/ original meaning at all.
04:54:16 AM Dec 23rd 2011
"just the eventual dwindling down of the concept to a shadow of what the trope means until it had almost nothing to do with the philosophical concept/ original meaning at all."

So... Flanderized?

By the way, the cutting was decided here:
03:43:56 PM Aug 4th 2011
edited by memememememe
I know further philosophy discussion could only mean an Edit War, but can we at least put this description:

"A Übermensch character requires three things; an antisocial mindset rejecting the norms of society for his own morality, inhuman charisma, and a grand vision for a better world (it doesn't have to be a Utopia, but any grand goal will do as long as it is too much for any ordinary person to handle)."

Also, in the Compare/ Contrast paragraph, why no link to Visionary Villain (which as mentioned in that trope page, the Übermensch can actually be if done properly), The Unfettered (which together with The Fettered provided a view on what makes a Übermensch), Blue and Orange Morality (as one troper said should be mentioned somewhere, after all, you're dealing with somebody who devised his own alien moral code for himself), and/or a Wikipedia link to Nietzsche's own philosophical concept (to avoid confusion and thus further edit warring)

Also, does the picture of Superman in there have any purpose? It looks more like a literal "Übermensch = Superman" interpetation.
08:43:16 PM Aug 3rd 2011
So it's kind of bothering me that the Compare/Contrast list is almost exclusively full of villain tropes, up to and including Complete Monster. But the whole point is that they've developed their own moral code, and there's quite a few heroes in the list. At the very LEAST, Blue and Orange Morality should be mentioned somewhere.

Also, Compelling Voice is in there for some reason. Unless it's via some sort of trope-association with Lelouch, I can't figure out why.
05:50:06 PM Nov 2nd 2011
Yeah, it kind of annoys me, too. Seriously, The Übermensch is not a default-villainous trope by any means. (Hell, look at Batman...) But this aside, the fact that there isn't some kind of clear explanation of the trope itself or of why certain tropes are cross-referenced with it at the top of the actual page is a serious problem.
06:47:05 AM Aug 3rd 2011
Just remember that every Ubermensch is a Nietzsche Wannabe in the eyes of his critics, and every Nietzsche Wannabe is an Ubermensch in his own mind.
12:50:15 AM Aug 8th 2011
edited by Vyctorian
Not they're not a Nietzsche wannabe is a straw nihilist it's even a redirect. The Ubermensch is an existentialist hero, who reconstructs what the Straw Nihilist sees in the world to give the world new meaning. Granted the now lacking description make it seem that way.

They are pretty much inversions of each other, plus thats basing it upon the thought that all Ubermensch follow the Villainous path which isn't always the case as Kamina, Simon, Bruce Wayne, Jesus and Socrates are all Ubermensch the later two having Word of Nietzsche as backing.
01:37:19 AM Aug 1st 2011
This trope should also mention that the word "Übermensch" is older than Nietzsche. In fact, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe uses it in his Faust, line 490.
08:29:28 AM Dec 4th 2011
But in fact, Goethe uses the word Übermensch in quite another context. "Welch erbärmlich Grauen fasst Übermenschen dich!", in which the word is used ironic. It's just to emphasize how all his knowledge (which makes him in his eyes a Übermensch) doesn't help him at all (i.e. understanding the higher being in the scene). By the way, the word is far older than that. Saint Louis, meaning Louis IX of France, was styled "superhomo" (you may giggle) by his contemporaries, albeit the word was used explicitly in a religious context.
12:00:49 PM Jul 16th 2011
Where the hell is Andrew Ryan on this page?? Seriously, I find it hard to think of a more obvious example of the Ubermensch theory in recent popular culture.
03:24:10 AM Sep 17th 2014
Was wondering that myself.
04:27:04 PM Jul 8th 2011
edited by RomanFlare
Ignore, figured it out.
01:03:17 AM Jun 16th 2011
edited by DJMarred
Can you add Byronic Hero to the compare list? The Byronic Hero page says that the two often overlap, as they are both people who view themselves as superior to the next guy, and live outside of the laws and boundaries of others.
01:48:15 PM Aug 14th 2011
On this matter Visionary Villain needs an add as well, while not always a villain a vision of a better world is a driving force of the Uber Mench.
08:38:10 PM May 30th 2011
I think the current definition (when Fast Eddie weeded out, of course the natter had to be removed, but when a SINGLE PARAGRAPH is weeded out even when it's not a Wall of Text that's crossing the line) actually applies more to anyone with an antisocial mindset you can name than to a specific character type. Let's make the definition more specifically Nietzschean, hence my emphasis on the Ubermensch overcoming angst through living by his own grand goal and purpose in this life (not just a moral code) despite being just as antisocial. (without the philosophy natter, of course, that goes to Trivia).
04:01:22 PM Apr 8th 2011
I remember that Nietzsche also said that the Ubermensch should have a taste for war. Could someone PLEASE add this fact in a more suitable way since this article is already a Wall of Text as it is and I wouldn't know where to properly place it ot properly word it.
05:34:33 AM Apr 15th 2011
edited by checkup
Well, my impression in general is that Editor Inside / Edit Compulsion Virus / Iam11111 / 1111222333 (and likely other periodically changed handles) seems to insert a onesided and selective pro-sociopath mindset agenda on most pages he contributes to, sometimes with Wall of Text issues, as on Nietzsche Wannabe or The Uber Mensch, and more often by carefully rewording and misrepresenting specific phrases and perspectives.

I'm not sure if it is acceptable or not, but it is quite disturbing and worrisome if it starts to seriously affect readers to embrace it.

I mean, you don't remotely have to be a Lack of Empathy social engineer amoral uber-sociopath to maintain a positive attitude, but I have the impression that he frequently presents things that way: That turning chillingly monstrous is the only decent alternative to despair, and will turn the reader into a Rule of Cool Crossing the Line Twice Magnificent Bastard.

It goes to my "don't let this wiki turn into another ED" paranoia circuits.
03:10:29 PM Apr 20th 2011
12:55:25 PM Apr 22nd 2011
Walls of text are for Last Men.
10:31:47 PM May 24th 2011
Well if we go by what checkup said the Nietzschean pages are more likely to attract actual Nietzsche Wannabes.
01:38:50 AM Jun 8th 2011
edited by Toggle
Nietzsche himself was a wannabe by your very selective, suspect, and misleading definition "And We Must Scream" (the new handle for the above mentioned Philippines ip-using editor btw). He turned insane from the strain of his outlook and was intensely self-loathing remember?

It isn't exactly something that we (the editors outside of yourself) should greatly encourage in the readers. Culture is non-stop intensely brainwashing us into sociopaths and psychopathic manchildren type E enough as it is without assistance.
07:36:17 PM Aug 28th 2011
He didn't turn insane from the strain of his outlook, he got Syphilis in age where it had no real treatment or cure, Syphilis untreated causes insanity. It was an STD that caused the fall of Nietzsche not his own believes.
11:58:13 AM Nov 16th 2010
I still don't understand why the english name ist "Ubermensch". In German, it is "Übermensch", and there is a difference between "ü" and "u". If you can't use an Umlaut for whatever reason, "ü" is replaced by "ue". PS: The other wiki does it right. PPS: Yes, I was just in the mood for trolling, ignore me if you like.
02:39:12 PM Sep 19th 2010
Can the fighting narcissist and the ubermensch overlap?
03:41:09 PM Sep 19th 2010
08:21:42 AM May 5th 2010
edited by Alligator
Irrelevant, I know, but that picture doesn't so much say Ubermensch as "Wot, wot, eh! Spot of tea?" Probably the mustache and eyepiece. Holy fuck, it's Theodore Roosevelt. Holy shit.
07:47:50 AM Sep 15th 2010
Same here. Nietzsche had a much bigger 'stache, and I can't remember a picture where he wore glasses.
12:57:42 AM Nov 13th 2010
Would it be ok if I deleted the pic, then?
10:44:20 AM Nov 13th 2010
...Yeah, even if it looks like a portmanteau of two Supermen, it really doesn't establish the nuanced complexity of the ideal.

Image deleted. For further appeal, please visit the Image Pickin' forum.
08:14:40 AM Oct 5th 2011
Dunno where to put this but I think the phrase "Transcending this illusion makes one" needs to have quote marks around the word 'illusion' since we are talking about something entirely subjective that sounds quote-like.
06:03:41 AM Apr 22nd 2010
edited by MarqFJA
I believe this could belong on either Characterization Tropes or Characters as Device. Do I have to get permission to add a trope to a particular index?
03:34:28 PM May 5th 2010
No permission necessary. Have at ye.
10:16:33 PM Jan 21st 2013
edited by Tomodachi
06:24:29 PM Feb 14th 2015
edited by Kenpachi_Ramasama
Whoever responsible for moderating this page, there are some typos on Soren Kierkegaard comparison. SN suppose to be SK.

edit: Sorry. Wrong one.
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