Misused (new crowner 12/2/13): Necessary Drawback

Progress:

• 51 pages (did an extra one somehow...)
• 82 wicks
• 40 ZCEs

I was planning on doing 50 pages, with the assumption of 1 wick per page, I might be doing 50 pages to make sure I get 50 wicks without ZCE!

EDIT: I've got 42 wicks that aren't ZCE. I want to do another round of random "Related To...", checking 20 to make sure I get at least another 8 wicks, but I've already spent a lot of time on this. I still need to categorize the misuse present.

edited 16th Oct '13 5:35:13 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

All good. Was pretty sure what you meant, but wanted to elucidate in order to avoid confusion.

Forget it; I'm not going to categorize the misuse. It's too broad for me. Any clarification on ZCE or Unclear examples would be nice.

Wick check for Mighty Glacier. Over 2,500 wicks; square root is also 50. Checking 50 wicks. Used the Random Integer Set Generator.

• 28, 62, 97, 116, 121, 380, 411, 499, 518, 568, 745, 813, 871, 1061, 1109, 1199, 1204, 1218, 1258, 1307, 1311, 1363, 1410, 1444, 1452, 1472, 1516, 1540, 1572, 1621, 1686, 1721, 1791, 1857, 1888, 1903, 1923, 1957, 1959, 2057, 2061, 2079, 2092, 2116, 2133, 2147, 2293, 2410, 2428, 2484

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1. A Game of Gods - Champions: Bowser. Misuse (str only, speed can be fast or slow)
2. An Adventurer Is You: mixed
   • Tank: Misuse (high defense, high damage, no mention of speed)
   • Blade master: Correct (high damage, specifies high toughness in place of high defense, low speed)
   • Diablo: Misuse (no mention of speed, contrasted with Squishy Wizard)
   • Battlefield Heroes: Correct (references hit points stats, abilities that aid durability, low speed and a BFG)
3. Armored Core: Pot Hole for two types of AC (defensive stat? Probably ZCE) Under Competitive Balance
4. A Song of Ice and Fire - Westerlands Houses: ZCE, under Ser Lyle Crakehall
5. Astro Empires: ZCE, (and the work page needs fixing)
6. Corpse Party (PC-98): under Unexpected Genre Change, Misuse (high str, low speed, contrasted against magical ability)
7. Danball Senki: ZCE under Gouda Hanzou.
8. Dissidia: Final Fantasy - Warriors of Cosmos: Misuse (attacks are powerful and slow, no mention of defense)
9. .hack//G.U.: ZCE
10. Dwarf Fortress:
    • Dwarves: Correct (stronger, tougher, less agile)
    • Elephants: Unclear (stronger and tougher than they are fast, speed could be average)
11. 744: Firestorm Armada: Misuse (explicitly stated not to have low speed)
12. Getter Robo: under Multiform Balance ZCE
13. Gundam 00: A Wakening of the Trailblazer: under Five-Man Band, Pot Hole for the mecha in The Big Guy entry (technically ZCE, but I'd say unclear: no speed is referenced, but easy to assume strength and durability)
14. Kilplix N Friends: Pot Hole for The Tank.
15. League Of Legends Three: mixed
    • Lee Shin, under Foil: Unclear (describes a very physical style of play, contrasting a quick and deadly style of play)
    • Malphite: Correct (high damage, high defense, slow speed)
    • Mordekaiser: Misuse (high damage, slow speed, no mention of durability or defense)
    • Morgana: Misuse (low damage, high defense, and low speed)
    • Nasus: Unclear (hits all three points; high damage, high endurance, low speed, but also has Jack of All Stats)
    • Nautilus: Correct (The entry for the Juggernaut better explains why he fits)
    • Olaf: Correct (high damage, high endurance, slow movement)
16. 1114: Legend Of Heroes Trails In The Sky: Zane Vathek ZCE
17. 1199: Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games: Funny (from context, Stone Wall is being misused for tough but slow, and Mighty glacier is either also tough but slow, or slow and powerful. He is being contrasted against Mario, stating to be slower while Mario is more Glass Cannon)
18. Mario Strikers: under Character Class System, ZCE
19. Mass Effect: Pot Hole under tank, Misuse (mentions high defense, no indication of speed or power)
20. Mega Man Zero: Zero, under Multiform Balance: Misuse (used separately for +str/-spd and +def/-spd)
21. 1307: Modern Warfare: Misuse (high toughness, low speed; super trope to Stone Wall)
22. Monster Hunter: apparently all zce.
    • Gypceros / Purple Gypceros: ZCE
    • Khezu / Red Khezu: ZCE
    • Akantor: ZCE
    • Ukanlos: ZCE
    • Lavasioth / Red Lavasioth: ZCE (might be misuse; The Determinator mentions it increases speed)
    • Fatalis / Crimson Fatalis / White Fatalis: ZCE (as Final Boss creatures, this might be correct)
    • Yama Tsukami: ZCE
    • Amatsumagatsuchi: ZCE
23. National Basketball Association: Pot Hole
    • Pot Hole for Shaq ZCE
    • Pot Hole next to John Stockton: Misuse (huge but slow man, no mention of defensive or offensive ability)
24. 1410: One Piece-Major Villains:
    • Axe-Hand Morgan: Misuse (high damage, low toughness, low speed)
    • Chief Warden Magellan: Misuse (example names low speed only. Based on further context, high damage is acceptably present, but no evidence for toughness, just a specific immunity)
    • Marshall D. Teach — "Blackbeard": ZCE, page context suggests Correct (powerful attacks, as a person he endures a lot of damage, although his specific power makes him easier to hurt. No mention of speed available)
25. Outsider: Correct (slower, tougher, better suited for combat)
26. Pacific Rim:
    • Cherno Alpha: Misuse (slower, powerful, more protected. Is used as super trope for Stone Wall. Under stone wall, specifies a lower damaging capability)
    • Romeo Blue: Correct (slow, but decently strong and armoured.
27. Persona 4: The Investigation Team: under Kanji Tatsumi, Misuse (contrasted with Glass Cannon; either he is high damage and low endurance, or low damage and high endurance, no mention of speed)
28. 1516: Pokémon Black and White: Pot Hole for Gigalith ZCE
29. Pokéthulhu: Misuse (high Power and low Speed)
30. Psychic Force:
    • Gudeath: Pot Hole for "being slow", Misuse (has a ZCE entry as well)
    • Gates Oltsman: ZCE
31. 1621: Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale: Under Competitive Balance, Misuse (high defense, average attack, no mention of speed)
32. RPG: Under Xenosaga, Pot Hole for Ziggy. Misuse (clearly shows high durability, character page indicates good damage, but no examples of low speed)
33. 1721: Scrub: Pot Hole for Charlie. Only context is losing to Fragile Speedster. ZCE
34. Slayers: Under Stone Wall, Misuse (context says Magic Knight is why he is a Mighty Glacier instead of a Stone Wall)
35. Standard Fantasy Setting: Under Post-Tolkien Dwarves, ZCE
36. Star Wars Expanded Universe: Under Tactical Rock–Paper–Scissors, Pot Hole next to Y-wing, Misuse (slow, but durable, no mention of attack power)
37. 1903: Still Waters 3 Teachers And Other Characters: ZCE
    • Maple Birdsong: ZCE
    • Max Linell: Misuse, ZCE (misuse can be identified via Flash Step also on the character profile. Evidence is good for powerful, but none for durability or defense)
    • Margaret Gunther: ZCE
    • Takahata Takamichi: Misuse, ZCE (misuse can beidentified from Weak, but Skilled and Flash Step also in the character profile)
38. Stretch Panic: Miss Mecca, ZCE
39. Super Mode: Under One Piece, Pot Hole for "decreases", Correct (He goes from Lightning Bruiser to a slower form, although only an increase in power is named. I am familiar enough with the series to declare the character highly durable, and likely to increase durability with more power)
40. 1959: Super Robot Wars: under Video Game Characters, ZCE
41. 2057: The Amazing Race 16: Louis "Louie" Stravato & Michael Naylor, Misuse (literal use of the term strength, replaces speed with poor endurance)
42. The Battle for Middle-earth: All six entries are ZCE, Mumakils actually provides evidence for strength, but not the other two aspects of the trifecta.
    • Gimili and the dwarf faction in the sequel as a whole.
    • Ents, especially Treebeard who functions like a stronger Ent
    • Trolls, particularly dangerous are Mordor's attack trolls in the sequel
    • Mumakils, who are by far the strongest non-special unit
    • The Balrog when not using his brief flight
    • Sauron is the top of the food chain in this
43. The Boondocks: Butch Magnus Milosovic, ZCE, Unclear (enough context is present to know he has a powerful attack, but nothing regarding his durability or speed)
44. The Demon Rush: ((works page in main!)) Under Video Game Characters, ZCE (the only context suggests averting this trope)
45. 2116: The Hobbit Film Trilogy: Correct (slow, stupid, strong, dangerous) I disagree that the trope applies, but the entry is correct for Mighty Glacier.
46. The Law of Diminishing Defensive Effort: Under Kamen Rider Wizard, Pot Hole under Land Style, ZCE
47. The Mighty Ducks: Under Competitive Balance, ZCE
48. 2293: Unreal Championship 2: The Liandri Conflict: Szalor and Torgr, Under Retool, ZCE
49. Vampire: The Requiem: Nosferatu, Misuse (high durability, no information on attack or speed)
50. Video Games:
    • Final Fantasy X International: Pot Hole for Auron, Unclear (referenced for the literal defense stat, refers to the entire party becoming Glass Cannon)
    • Super Robot Wars: Pot Hole under "other", Misuse (context suggests the trope is being used to mean "high defense" only)
    • Supreme Commander: Misuse (context mentions the difference between this trope and Glass Cannon is combat durability, no mention of speed is made)
    • [Rome: Total War]: ZCE
    • Mega Man X: Misuse (slow attack mentioned, high attack power is reasonable to assume given the page, but is also reasonable to assume low durability due to the page)
    • Command & Conquer: Pot Hole under "as slow as Kirov" ZCE (Three and four level bullets, conversation in the main page)
    • Command & Conquer: Pot Hole under Naval Artillery, Misuse (hits the power and defense aspects, no mention of speed present)
    • Halo: Probably Correct (but missing explicit mention of speed, can be mistaken for the trope between Glass Cannon and Lightning Bruiser)
    • Bubble Tanks 2: Pot Hole under "Super Heavy's", ZCE
51. Warhammer: Correct (two entries, the lizardmen entry hits every point; powerful, slow, tough. Warriors of Chaos would be ZCE by themselves)

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Mighty Glacier, as defined by the current page, is strong and tough, but slow. Anything else is misuse.

• Total Wicks: 82
• Total Wicks, excluding ZCE: 42
• Correct use: 13 (31%)
• Unclear + Funny use: 7 (17%)

edited 16th Oct '13 5:57:07 PM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Let me try and double-check/sort that.

Fine

1. Characters.A Game Of Gods Champions
2. An Adventurer Is You
   • Tank
   • Blade Master
   • Diablo
   • Battlefield Heroes
3. Armored Core
4. Characters.A Song Of Ice And Fire Westerlands Houses
5. Astro Empires
6. Corpse Party (PC-98)
7. Characters.Dissidia Final Fantasy Warriors Of Cosmos
8. .hack//G.U.
9. Dwarf Fortress
   • Dwarves
   • Elephants
10. Getter Robo
11. Gundam 00: A Wakening of the Trailblazer
12. Funny.Kilplix N Friends
13. Characters.League Of Legends Three
    • Malphite
    • Mordekaiser
    • Morgana
    • Nasus
    • Nautilus
    • Olaf
14. Legend Of Heroes Trails In The Sky
15. Mario Strikers
16. Mass Effect
17. Modern Warfare
18. National Basketball Association, Malone
19. Outsider
20. Characters.Pacific Rim, Romeo Blue
21. Pokemon Black And White
22. Pokéthulhu

Bad

1. Firestorm Armada
2. Characters.League Of Legends Three, Udyr
3. Headscratchers.Mario And Sonic At The Olympic Games
4. Characters.Mega Man Zero
5. National Basketball Association, Shaq
6. Characters.One Piece-Major Villains, Morgan
7. Persona 4: The Investigation Team
8. Recettear: An Item Shop's Tale

Can't say

1. Characters.Danball Senki
2. Characters.Monster Hunter
3. Characters.One Piece-Major Villains
   • Magellan
   • Blackbeard
4. Characters.Pacific Rim, Cherno Alpha
5. Characters.Psychic Force

...Eh, I'm bored, I don't want to do the rest.

There's some Square Peg Round Troping, but I'm not sure why. I don't see any point of confusion in the description to account for it, and I don't see a way to attribute it to the name.

edited 16th Oct '13 7:38:04 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

I don't see any point of confusion in the description to account for it, and I don't see a way to attribute it to the name.

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It goes back to the reason why I felt we needed trope repair of the entire group, not just one of these. Mighty Glacier, from my check, is being used mostly as "powerful character". The drawback is mostly ignored. Another common misuse is as a super trope to Stone Wall, or Subtrope to Lightning Bruiser, with the mistaken impression that LB is +p/+d/+s, MG is +p/+d, and SW is +d.

We have Stone Wall describing Mighty Glacier as +P/+D, with no mention of speed. We have Power at a Price calling it power without speed. It is on the Strength Index, which is limited to tropes that are about being physical strong or demonstrating strength like with lifting or hitting. Yet Glass Cannon isn't. That's not even going into the past definitions and aborted TRS threads on this subject.

The definition isn't wrong. The description isn't wrong. I don't even say the name is wrong for any of these, yet. (Stone Wall wasn't my fight)

The use of this trope by related tropes has been wrong. And that is an ultimately more sinister and difficult thing to discover and fix. That is why I think we need to reorganize, clearly define, and clean wicks according to the new organization.

Not because I think a specific chart needs filling out, not because I want each troper to fully describe each other trope. Such a chart, whatever it looks like, should be on some other page. But it needs to cover every combination, because tropers are trying to fit everything into current tropes (Round Peg Square Trope) or make new tropes for what they think we're missing, and retroactively changing the definition of the current tropes.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Oh oh oh! Double take! There's this bit:

Implying that there are exactly three, so if it's not one of the other two it must be this. That's gotta be screwing stuff up. I'd like to go ahead and axe it if no one minds—I'm pretty sure we can all agree it's wrong.

Trouble with other tropes' descriptions makes sense. We should start by going through them and scrubbing out as many references to the stupid three-stat thing as we can.

*looking at other tropes*

Fragile Speedster looks okay. Glass Cannon could use some tweaks toward the end, but there's nothing egregious. Lightning Bruiser is terrible (and always has been, really). Stone Wall would be fine if it deleted the line referencing Mighty Glacier, which is a mess. Jack of All Stats has a couple questionable potholes in the first line that we can just delete, since they're not relative to the context.

Power at a Price's whole Necessary Drawback section is problematic because Necessary Drawback applies to a lot more of this index than just those few tropes listed under it. I think I see some tropes in other sections that are misdescribed as well. Would it be okay if we just scrapped all the descriptions, alphabetized everything, and made it a traditional index?

Strength Index should list Mighty Glacier because even though physical strength is not necessarily required, physically strong characters are strongly associated with the trope. That's not true of Glass Cannon, so no trouble there.

edited 16th Oct '13 10:58:08 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Take that section out.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Axed.

The quote's not very good either. It doesn't work well without visuals. And speaking of visuals, an image would not be amiss.

edited 16th Oct '13 10:58:43 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."

That visuals thing would be something worth discussing in Image Pickin'. As for the description of Lightning Bruiser - it doesn't seem that bad to me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

even though physical strength is not necessarily required, physically strong characters are strongly associated with the trope

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Observer's bias: it was always said to apply, so it never didn't apply.

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One of the three classic video game character builds, along with the Fragile Speedster and The Mario.

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That's always been a part of the definition, even past previous TRS threads. http://web.archive.org/web/20070510095222/https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyGlacier

The trope has, even according to your lax rules, over 25% misuse for the current definition. Elements of the original definition are outright wrong. Other pages list the wrong meaning. This is representative of ALL eleven tropes. Do you understand my point regarding why it isn't one trope that's being misused?

Over a dozen examples say nothing about speed, which is half of the trope definition. Even if we change Mighty Glacier to +Powerful (strength and/or toughness) and -Speed, the trope will still have over 25% misuse.

Doing some more Way back travels, and I find that Speed wasn't always a part of the definition for the trope: http://web.archive.org/web/20080831192716/https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyGlacier

edited 17th Oct '13 3:50:18 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

The crowner is looking pretty stable at this point. Where do we go from here?

Post the numbers in the crowner, like so:

• 21:6 (the option was contingent upon the four tropes getting redefined)
• 15:9 the four specialty tropes redefined to one great, one poor attribute.
• (negative) redefine Lightning Bruiser to great attributes, but comes with an additional flaw.

Then you click on the triangle, which is the "holler" button, asking a moderator to close the crowner.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Done and done.

Calling it for the first option.

edited 21st Oct '13 10:18:14 AM by Willbyr

All right, so we lack the consensus to redefine anything at this time. I believe the next item on the agenda was to run a crowner for the Stone Wall rename.

Skimming through the thread, these are the suggestions on the table:

• Iron Weakling
• Forceless Defender
• Durable Weakling
• Iron Peashooter
• Durable Peashooter
• Durable But Impotent
• The Tank
• Defensive Tank
• Cannonless Tank
• Soft Hitting Protector
• Soft Hitting Guardian
• Forceless Guardian
• Shield Warrior
• Toothless Tank

Anything else that should be included in the crowner?

I will say that I like the word "Toothless."

Rhymes with "Protracted."

What do you think then? Toothless Defender?

Toothless Tank actually sounds good to me. It's evocative and it rolls nicely off the tongue. Iron Peashooter has a nice ring to it too, although I'm not sure it describes the trope as well (kind of a mixed metaphor).

Anyway, no objections to hooking up the new crowner.

Rhymes with "Protracted."

Toothless Defender sounds OK. Toothless Tank sounds kind of weird, because a tank doesn't even attack with teeth.

Put up the crowner; more can be added later.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Crowner created: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/crowner.php/AlternativeTitles/StoneWall

Hookéd.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

While the renames crowner is running, I'll be looking through this thread and past threads, collecting information on issues, and whether they've been resolved. I don't want to neglect Shiro's proposal, and certain other arguments have also turned into circular debates, with no side being happy.

The issues that haven't been resolved will get a pro/con listing, the issues that have been resolved need their resolution listed, and both will get editing into the first post. From there, we will have a bit of a fresh start, before the next crowner comes along. I might do a wick check for another of the tropes, too. This will take me probably a week, by which point, the Stone Wall rename crowner probably won't quite be finished.

I'm growing somewhat annoyed that this is a side issue that needs solving before work on the generalist tropes.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

How about Damage Sponge? After "Tank" (which is a bad term due to a myriad of other uses) that's the most common term I hear for it (though I really like Toothless Tank).

EDIT: Huh. So Damage Sponge is currently a redirect for Damage-Sponge Boss with 20 wicks. Those can be easily changed, although most of their uses are synonymous with Stone Wall anyway (it usually gets assigned to bosses with high HP, but no notable attacks). I still think it should be added.

edited 22nd Oct '13 10:44:44 AM by Larkmarn

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Added Damage Sponge to the crowner.

It has the advantage that it's a commonly-used term that many people understand. The disadvantage is that the term is mostly used in video game circles and might not be as well-known elsewhere. Also, the term is generally used to refer to enemies with high HP as opposed to someone who is heavily armored, and so many examples derive their defense from armor that I'm not sure it quite fits.

It's not terrible, but I think we've got better options.