Is this an example?

Balance, Power, Skill, Gimmick is when you have four playable characters that have the following respective traits: The first is a Jack of All Stats, the second and third excel at particular stats while falling short at others, and the fourth is a special character who follows a special or unusual mechanic that makes it stand out from the others and is not reliant on any stat. Would the trope apply if, instead of physically separate characters, you had a character who takes the form of a different persona or species?

I'm asking because, in the game The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, the main character can earn up to four transformation masks. They do come from characters, but they're all dead and their souls are integrated into the masks, so when Link wears one he'll take the physical form of the deceased character. The first mask transforms him into a Deku (standard attacks and speed, also has the ability to fly), the second into a Goron (slow-but-powerful attacks, also can curl at great speed on the ground), the second into a Zora (weak-but-fast attacks, also can swim underwater efficiently), and the oddball is the fourth, Fierce Deity (exceptionally powerful and fast attacks, but can only be worn during boss battles and is unable to swim, fly or curl).

135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300

I that requires a little bit too much shoehorning, since they all have their gimmicks, which are their defining traits.

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Are the following examples being used correctly?:

From Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: The show was announced around the time the 2012 incarnation (which is thought by some to be one of the best incarnations of the franchise to date) was ending, and the shake-ups even compared to certain previous adaptations (such as Leo and Raph having switched roles and personalities and no sign of overall franchise antagonist Shredder) lead to something of an uphill battle to climb in regards to earning goodwill from the fans.

From Critical Dissonance:

• Teen Titans Go! is hated by fans of the original series and comics who feelthat feel that this show is an insult to them, fans of Young Justice who view it as a Replacement Scrappy, fans of Cartoon Network's other shows who feel that their favorites are getting shoved to the side in favor of this, and older audiences in general who find it utterly juvenile. It's gotten to the point where you would be forgiven for thinking that it's near universally despised. It isn't, critics have given it mixed to positive reviews, it is Cartoon Network's highest rated show, and is well-liked by children.

WhatAnIdiot.Steven Universe:

• "A Single Pale Rose"
  • Pink Diamond has grown to care for the Earth and its inhabitants and her efforts to stop the colonization of the planet by the other Diamonds have gone nowhere (including bargaining and !ater staging a civil war by playing both herself and the leader of the rebellion). Pink Diamond is under the assumption that her fellow Diamonds don't care about her at all, and she will resort to desperate measures to save the Earth.
    You'd Expect: For Pink Diamond to carefully consider her options. While she's under the assumption that Yellow and Blue Diamond don't care about her emotionally, they would certainly care about a person in a high position of power suddenly being removed from a logistical standpoint, as it creates power vacuums and bad implications for their subjects. As a Gem, Pink Diamond is born knowing how to do her job, so it can't all be chocked up to naivety.
    You'd Also Expect: That Pink Diamond would consult with a Sapphire about possible outcomes (for instance, asking a Sapphire "what would the future be if X occurred"). Sapphires can foresee events with near-impeccable accuracy, and this way would result in far fewer unintended consequences for the Earth that Pink might not have thought about. In addition, if the Sapphire wasn't keen on Pink Diamond's conclusion, Pink could just bubble the Sapphire to keep her secret safe until a time comes when she can be safely released.
    Instead: Pink comes up with the idea of staging a regicide courtesy of her Pearl shapeshifting into the rebel leader, and to later live a double life as the rebel leader she made up (and later a small half-human child). Pink did not consult with anyone on any ramifications of her plan.
    As a Result: Out of a combination of grief and the logical disposition to make sure that other Gems aren't inspired to take similar actions, the remaining Diamonds resort to multiple attempts to destroy the Earth (Corruption Beam and later Yellow Diamond's Cluster), both actions catching Pink/her descendants entirely off guard. Most of Pink's beloved subjects are corrupted into monsters beyond recognition and saving (for PD anyhow) and if not for the freak accident of Peridot not being able to leave the ticking time bomb of a planet and Steven's attempts to help her, the Earth would have been blown up anyhow from the Cluster.

Extra notes:

• Sapphires can't see multiple timelines. Asking "what would happen if (x) happened" wouldn't work.
• Pink is very impulsive. We've seen several times that if she wants to do something, she does it and deals with the ramifications later.
• Just because Pink was made knowing her job doesn't mean she'd know about what would happen if something happened to one of the Diamonds. It never happened before this, so she'd have no need to know.

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- Agreed. The hypothetic seems OOC.

Pink is impulsive.

Sapphires don't know how to detect alternate futures? Garnet was the first?

Does What An Idiot have a note requiring OOC? 'Cause it seems like it should?

edited 19th May '18 6:07:36 PM by Malady

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The entry ties into a big recent reveal involving Pink Diamond and her connections to Rose Quartz. That said, does it count as What An Idiot when the idiotic act is completely in character for the person, which would negate the "you'd expect" part?

From what I understand from "The Answer", Sapphire can only see one future. It's with Ruby's influence that Garnet can see the branching paths in the future. Something like that, at least.

And yeah, What An Idiot should have an OOC rule if it doesn't already.

I don't think it does. Otherwise the "you'd expect" is just a shorthand for "I expect this character to act this way even though we've seen them act like this several times before".

edited 19th May '18 6:28:32 PM by Crossover-Enthusiast

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The Teen Titans Go entry strikes me as shoehorning. It's not a disagreement between audiences on one side and critics on the other, it's a disagreement between the target audience, the network, and critics on one side, and a very vocal and obnoxious Hate Dom on the other.

If a character acts in character then that's what you expect. You don't expect a character to be smarter than previously shown. Or always at peak smartness without making mistakes (unless not making mistakes is part of the character, which it almost always isn't).

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Blunt Metaphors Trauma? I think it's actually a Mixed Metaphor.

• From a Batman comic:
  Thug: This is a crime family. A syndicate. You're the top dog on the pyramid and we're all the little fish on the bottom rung of the totem pole.

edited 19th May '18 7:06:11 PM by Malady

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What An Idiot can only consider information available to the character and must take into account their personality and motivations.

edited 19th May '18 7:10:18 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

So what about the Audience-Alienating Premise example? x10

I feel like a lot of these questions would be solved if people read the trope descriptions. The lead of Audience-Alienating Premise reads like so: "Some shows never stood a chance. Not necessarily because they're bad, but because the very concept scared people away."

The premise of TMNT is "four mutant turtles and a rat with human intelligence and size form a ninja clan to fight evil ninjas". Seems to me that it sells just fine. So no AAP. The basis of that example seems to be that fans won't like it because they changed stuff. Which is They Changed It, Now It Sucks!.

edited 19th May '18 7:25:14 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Can I remove the What An Idiot example?

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From Sonic Boom:

• Alternate Continuity: The show and games are part of a "sub-franchise", which are entirely different from the main games.
• Ultimate Universe: From everything shown, the show and the sub-franchise it plans to launch will remain somewhat faithful to the original games, but has a lot of room to be as "fresh" as they want.

However, should this be Cut Lex Luthor a Check (Inverted Trope) but not Punch-Clock Villain given Eggman's status In-Universe:

• Apathetic Citizens: "No Robots Allowed" and other episodes establish that the loosely-formed government of the archipelago could try to give Eggman more trouble than they do, but they're fine with his village-destroying plots as long as he doesn't specifically flout their rules. In a larger sense, episodes like "Next Top Villain" and "Counter Productive" show that villainy in itself isn't disapproved and is even seen as a legitimate career path, if not quite as glamorous as heroism, as long as proper procedure is followed.

and from Sonic the Hedgehog:

• Alternate Continuity: To date, the Sonic series has a whopping fifteen different continuities, and probably even more if you count games of dubious canon like Sonic Spinball and the fact that the Archie comics underwent a Continuity Reboot.

• The Artifact: The franchise has had some trouble finding ways to keep all of its facets relevant.
  • Knuckles was Sonic's first example of The Rival, but has since been displaced by Shadow, who

  • The Master Emerald has also been less and less utilized, often merely as an excuse to include Knuckles, even though by rights it should be one of the most important artifacts in the franchise, since it can both enhance and suppress the powers of the Chaos Emeralds.

  • The Babylon Rogues from the Sonic Riders series have also become this, even within their own spinoff. Part of their story involves their connection with the Floating Continent called Babylon Garden, but since Babylon Garden's story appears to have been concluded, they've been reduced to token opposition in Extreme Gear competitions.

Not being familiar with all the different continuities, should we list them like Franchise/Highlander. I was about to add that Continuity Reboot was an Enforced Trope due to the Archie Comics ending and the Ken Penders lawsuit, but if anyone who knows more about Sonic than me wants to add it, feel free.

From The Catch:

• Anti-Hero / Anti-Villain: As in most Shonda Rhimes shows, most of the cast are morally grey. Maybe as much so as Grey's Anatomy.
• Bithe Way: Margot and Ben are implied to be lovers but Margot is also shown in a hot relationship with Felicity (who also happens to be sleeping with Margot's brother).
• Blackand Grey Morality: There are some genuinely villainous characters in the show, but the heroes are willing to bend the rules to achieve their goals.
  • Switches around as the villains shift to becoming Antihero characters while the heroes remain good.
• Bunny-Ears Lawyer: All of the members of the Kensington family are this as they're an oddball collection of London Gangster con artists as well as killers. It even applies to Ben and Margot's fifteen year old daughter Tessa..
• Friendly Enemy: Margot and Rhys keep this status until they just become friendly period.

edited 20th May '18 2:24:45 AM by Merseyuser1

I added these to Ben 10: Omniverse but do they fit:

• Alternate Timeline: "And then There Was None / And then there was Ben" mixes this trope with Alternate Universe, showing Ben Tennyson from most of the twelve Alternate Timelines that exist.
• * Unperson: In the Two-Part Episode "And Then There Was None / And Then There Was Ben", Eon, actually an Alternate Self of [[:spoiler:Ben Tennyson]] from an Alternate Timeline uses a Chronosapien Time Bomb to get rid of all Ben Tennysons across the multiverse. The Irony is, he is Ben Tennyson, although to him That Man Is Dead.

With regard tropes added before I edited (wanting to avoid an Edit War):

• Destructive Savior: Ben, to the point a merchant was willing to endure blackmail from aliens criminals rather than call for his help. Mr. Bowman Baumann reveals that Ben has a long-standing habit of accidentally trashing his car, and had earlier said the same was true of his store. A truck of his is actually in orbit thanks to Ben. Until it came back down thanks to Ben. On Bowman's Baumann's house. Though there's no way Bowman could have known that was Ben's fault.
• The Nth Doctor: The episode "Universe Vs. Tennyson" establishes that, Celestialsapiens, the source species of Alien X and a species of Reality Warpers, as the cause of the various redesigns and The Other Darrins throughout the franchise, with Azmuth cited as an example (going from Robert David Hall in Secret of the Omnitrix and Destroy All Aliens, to Jeff Bennett doing a René Auberjonois impression in the Alien Force/Ultimate Alien era, to Auberjonois himself voicing the character in Omniverse).
• Diminishing Villain Threat:
  • Zombozo, to a minor extent; while he always was a minor villain, his appearances in both the original series and UA portrayed him as walking horror and a competent Gang leader with good scheming skills, respectively. Omniverse has him attempting a brain robbery alone, portrays him as much more wacky and merely has him defeated in the first episode's Batman Cold Open, making it the first appearance where he isn't dangerous. Eventually fixed in Something This Way Comes Zombozo, where his powers fading away are finally explained and he gets back to his initial threat level.
  • A weird example with Vilgax; he appears considerably less than in previous series, and whenever an episode has him as the main villain, he is despicted as a genuinely dangerous villain, if not as unstoppable as his Original Series version. Whenever he gets a mention or a cameo, on the other hand, it's played entirely for comedy. A particularly infamous example is when he was revealed to be afraid of Ma Vreedle.

I want to give this article a slight rewrite, but without getting into an Edit War; indeed, this and Ben 10: Alien Force.

From Trivia.The Wiz:

• Creator Backlash: Ray Bolger compared the movie negatively to the 1939 film, in which he himself portrayed the Scarecrow.

Since Ray Bolger didn't write The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, The Wizard of Oz, or The Wiz, should this really count?

Actors are considered creators for the works they're in, but I don't think it counts since he's not a creator for The Wiz or the original work.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Are the following examples from Spider-Man: Turn Off the Dark being used correctly?:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: Let's just say that there is an audience for musical theater and there is an audience for Spider-Man, and there is perhaps much less overlap between those two demographics than the creators may have anticipated.
• Evil Is Cool: Patrick Page's riotously-over-the-top Green Goblin is pretty much the only thing from the show that's unironically liked.
• Narm: All over the place. Pretty much the only time it crosses over into Narm Charm is when the Green Goblin is onstage.
• Snark Bait: Horrendous costumes, a questionable premise and the mother of all TroubledProductions has made TOTD into a permanent punchline. When Sesame Street is mocking your show, then you really know how badly you've messed up.

Not sure about the Audience-Alienating Premise example, but Evil Is Cool and Narm are Zero Context Examples. Not sure about the Snark Bait example, though I'm pretty sure it's also zero context.

I think Audience-Alienating Premise is valid. The description says that strange crossovers (which I would consider this work to fall under) can often be a source.

The other three, though, are very complainy ZC Es.

Edit: Because I can't spell (or use the preview button, apparently).

edited 20th May '18 4:36:25 PM by naturalironist

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"

Removed the What An Idiot example from Steven Universe.

YMMV.Thunder Cats Roar:

• Audience-Alienating Premise: It's a reboot of a classic adventure cartoon from the 80s... As a silly comedy cartoon.

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Its locked now, but its sadly valid.

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Not sure about that, actually. I never saw much real hostility towards the mere idea of "a Spider-Man musical"; the show became a punchline more because of production issues.

This, on the other hand, seems to be true.

What's alienating about a silly comedy? It's not the premise. Perhaps the execution of it could be a problem, if there's one.

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