One big bone of contention. Namely, do you have further reasoning as to why that is the correct reading of "I called myself Seiros"? Like is it clearer in Japanese or something? Because I can't see why anyone would word it that way if that was their original, given name. I wouldn't say "I called myself" something unless I originally had no name or had a different name, since my given name is something I was given and called by others before I could even speak. Further, the context of her saying "I called myself Seiros" is her discussing how she gathered allies to lead the fight against Nemesis, implying that taking on that name was part of that stage of her life but not part of her life before this. Else why wait until after she lost everything in Zanado to mention her name?
As for Seteth referring to her as Seiros when talking to Macuil, that could just as easily be due to it being the name she had back when Macuil last saw her and thus Seteth used the name that, as far as Macuil knew, was her most recent. And given the war lasted the better part of a hundred years, he would have been calling her Seiros for a long time.
I also think that, while I agree Rhea's influence as a leader of Fodlan is exaggerated in the eyes of many of her critics, one can still say she holds considerable political influence.
Edited by Perentie
Nobody disputes that Rhea has a great deal of influence. What she does not have is temporal power - all her power is soft
. The Theocracy is a trope whereby the church has hard power.
As to the name thing, it's worth noting that in Crimson Flower, when she gets out her old gear, she reverts to the name Seiros. Why would she go back to a previous pseudonym instead of keeping the current one, or if she is going to shed her current name, go back to her original name? Everything just makes more sense if Seiros was her original name.
Edited by VampireBuddha Ukrainian Red Cross
I'd still say that's murky evidence, since the old gear is what she wore when she called herself Seiros, so she goes back to that name. Plus recall that by that point her sanity has slipped enough that she believes Byleth is the reincarnation of Nemesis, so yet another reason for her to use the name she had when she last fought him. But I'll admit things could go either way.
Several of these deletions are for bogus reasons, so I'm just gonna go ahead and put them back.
Anti-Villain: Rhea is a villain in one of the game's routes and given the game's Grey-and-Gray Morality could be considered a Villain Protagonist in others. The wording in the reason given suggests this deletion had less to do with rigid adherence to the trope's definition and more defend Rhea's character.
Black-and-White Insanity: You have the sequence of events backwards. When Byleth decides not to execute Edelgard, Rhea immediately tries to kill them and they only begin fighting her in response.
Fantastic Racism: The trope entry refers repeatedly to signs that Rhea dislikes or thinks poorly of humanity in general. The idea that it is referring only to class has no basis whatsoever. And even if the entry was solely about her favoring those with Crests, that would still qualify as anyone with a Crest has the blood of Rhea's people.
Has a Type: Just because you disagree with the interpretation of a scene doesn't override what it says and what it says is that Rhea only develops romantic feelings for Byleth once they start to look a certain way.
Hypocrite: How anyone can play through this game and not realize Rhea knows the faith she preaches is false is beyond me.
Self-Serving Memory: Again, this deletion flies in the face of the game's events. To think that Rhea didn't implant Sothis' Crest Stone in Byleth without their knowledge then accuse them of stealing Sothis requires some substantial ignorance about the game.
Unreliable Narrator: This trope may not apply, but the entry is easily fixed to Unreliable Expositor. In the future, please repair entries rather than delete them if possible.
I agree overall, though on one counterpoint I think its worth pointing out that Byleth doesn't simply decide to not kill Edelgard (after all, if you don't unlock the ability to do Crimson Flower you have the option of simply saying nothing and still siding with Rhea), rather they leave Rhea's side and stand with Edelgard to defend her, the wording of the decision being "I must protect Edelgard." Rhea understandably sees you protecting the person who just plundered her family's remains as a horrible betrayal and reacts accordingly. I guess it could still qualify for the trope though, since Rhea in the next battle states outright that Edelgard's reasons, whatever they may be, cannot justify her actions.
Edited by Perentie
My two criticisms here are:
- I originally added Has a Type because the scene is explicitly romantic. It's not especially subtle. Rhea's interest is sparked because of signs that Byleth is becoming more like her mother, but Rhea's reaction, the framing and camerawork are all invocative of romantic affection.
- Unreliable Narrator should simply be changed to Unreliable Expositor. It's simply the wrong variation of the trope, not a completely incorrect entry.
So, the thing about Has a Type there is that the entry doesn't establish that Rhea has explicit feelings for her mother, and more comes across as "this is a romantic scene and a scene that establishes similarities to Sothis" rather than establishing "this is a scene where Rhea is more interested in Byleth for resembling someone Rhea already had feelings for."
I don't remember the scene at all but it would need to be rewritten for clarity establishing that Rhea's type already existed.
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Well, in the scene, Rhea explicitly swoons and tells Byleth that she wants to gaze at their eyes and hair because they are "so much like my own".
Like I said, in hindsight (after learning Rhea's plans) we know that she liked it partially because Byleth looked so much like her mother, but the framing of the scene is unambiguously romantic.
What's Jeritza's starting class when you recruit him?
It is I, the narrator, categorising addict and writer of books you haven't read. Hide / Show Replies
Death Knight. He also has Noble, Soldier, and Cavalier.
Ukrainian Red Cross
Shock & Roll
I'm reviving the Catherine Ambiguously Bi discussion because the arguments against the trope being valid are questionable, I feel.
Using the endings as an argument against the use of the trope silly; if they were more definitive, we would use "Bi the Way" instead of Ambiguously Bi. The ending doesn't preclude the very obvious shipteasing from being present in their support chain. Their concern for each other is a huge element of their support, and it's clear that Catherine cares about Shamir a great deal (which is notable since her top priority is usually always Rhea). Even if we assume that her marriage proposal is a joke, the joke is predicated on the fact that Catherine is so deeply worried about losing Shamir, that they should get married to stay together (and the argument that it's a joke is disingenuous; in the Japanese version, Shamir flatly tells her that they can get married in Dagda)
And barring that, there's Catherine's intense attachment for Rhea which absolutely goes well beyond simple admiration. The A-supports and her Rhea attachment should be enough to at least warrant the trope, imo
Everything I do is for Y Hide / Show Replies
Someone can have adoration for someone and not be romantically interested in them.
Character endings are important because they flatly provide the fates of the characters. None of Catherine's endings with Shamir mention they get married, and were only talking about the localization. The Japanese script is a different issue entirely.
Both also clearly have romantic endings with other characters, so even if they have a romantic ending in your view, then it it isn't Ambigiously Bi but If It's You, It's Okay. Annette and Merecedes are examples of this kind of relationship since we know Mercedes is bi-sexual.
As it stands now, there is not enough to say they fit.
Muramasa got.
One thing about her feelings for Rhea is that there isn't really anything explicitly romantic or sexual about it, at least in the English version. Catherine says she "reveres" Rhea, and also that Rhea is an inspiration to her. Her feelings for Rhea are much closer to worship than sexual. Not that she sees Rhea as a deity of course. She makes clear in other supports that she decided to devote how she measures right and wrong to be based on the will of the goddess, and she sees Rhea as the one who tells her what that will is.
On another note, perhaps we should change Manuela's entry as well as she likewise doesn't really match "ambigulously bi" and just tends to be flirtatious in general. Rather she'd be "if it's you it's ok" if her ending with Dorothea actually is romantic. That's about the only way I can see it meshing with how she outright says the reason she won't see female Byleth as a romantic option is because Byleth is a woman.
Edited by Perentie
Regarding Manuela, we'd be assuming at that point. The trope isn't If It's You, It's Okay, because Manuela never directly or indirectly says anything that suggests Dorothea is an exception. We ASSUME Dorothea would be an exception because she's the only woman who even has an ambiguous pairing with Manuela, but we don't know Manuela's sexuality to begin with. Her lack of interest in female Byleth can be for a lot of reasons, including just not finding Byleth physically or emotionally attractive.
In short, Ambiguously Bi is the only trope I see applying, because we never know enough about Manuela's sexuality to assume.
Edited by NubianSatyress
>Someone can have adoration for someone and not be romantically interested in them.
Yes, but it's clear Catherine's adoration for Rhea goes well beyond normal, as she frequently implies (or outright states) she'd murder someone for dishonouring or disrespecting Rhea. Even in her support with Shamir, it's made clear that the only reason she doesn't cut down Shamir on the spot for her casual disregard for religion is because she cares about her.
>Character endings are important because they flatly provide the fates of the characters. None of Catherine's endings with Shamir mention they get married, and were only talking about the localization. The Japanese script is a different issue entirely.
Except you're missing the point. Flatly providing the fates of characters would supersede the need of ambiguity altogether, hence why they aren't useful here. If Catherine and Shamir's ending mentioned them getting married, this wouldn't even be up for discussion. But the fact that their A+ support ends on Shamir proposing marriage, that goes well beyond heterosexual life partners.
>The Japanese script is a different issue entirely.
An issue we can't pretend exists when the game is filled with plot inconsistencies that arose due to the english localization team taking liberties with the script. Not that i'd be willing to upend the entire wiki to accomodate them, but it's telling that in the Japanese version, their support toys with the idea of them going to another country to get married.
I think "if it's you, it's okay" is a good fit
>One thing about her feelings for Rhea is that there isn't really anything explicitly romantic or sexual about it, at least in the English version. Catherine says she "reveres" Rhea, and also that Rhea is an inspiration to her.
In her A-support with Byleth she outright says she will always love her. And the reason for her feelings stems from Rhea saving her twice, and not because of any ideology.
Everything I do is for Y
I mean. Yes. Her feelings towards Rhea aren't normal. Doesn't make them sexual or romantic. Catherine is a borderline religious zealot and Rhea's the Crystal Dragon Pope but like, ten times more infallible.
It's not a binary between "normal" and "love." There are more feelings in the world, you know?
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I'm pretty sure it is at least partly ideology. Catherine explains that her devotion to the goddess and thus to Rhea when it comes to what is right and wrong is a major aspect of what allows her to remain confident that turning Christophe in was the right thing to do. Catherine makes it plain that she lives her life not based on any independent heroic ideology, and indeed objects to being seen as heroic, but rather with the goddess' will as the basis of her ideology. The way she sees it, it means she doesn't have to depend on the imperfections of devoting herself to a fallible person and their ideology (irony being that Rhea, and even Sothis for that matter are fallible).
I want to add that while Rhea is a bi-sexual option, she's only able to get with Byleth, and the situation around that is so unusual that it comes across not really as Rhea being bisexual but more If It's You, It's Okay.
As for Catherine, the endings are important because of what they reveal. Catherine only has the ambiguous dynamic with two characters: Rhea, who she expressly sees as like a God, and Shamir, where they have a Heterosexual Life-Partners dynamic and Shamir herself never expresses any romantic interest in other woman either and enjoys messing around with Catherine. Two characters can joke about getting married without it being serious.
The Japanese script isn't available to most players so its not really fair to use that as a smoking gun. Plus nobody ever provides a source for them.
Edited by keyblade333 Muramasa got.
I'd argue that Rhea is a case of Single-Target Sexuality rather than If It's You, It's Okay. Rhea, one way or another, never expresses a fondness or aversion to any gender. In her thousands of years of life, the only person we can confirm her ever falling in love with is Byleth, and their gender is a non-issue.
>It's not a binary between "normal" and "love." There are more feelings in the world, you know?
I'm well aware, i'm just saying love is a major aspect of her feelings towards her. She was nursed back to health by Rhea and it's a formative moment in her life. In fact, she explicitly desires to get injured again so that she can experience that again! While reverence doesn't include love, it doesn't always *preclude* love either, which is my main point. Catherine can see Rhea as a Goddess and also love her, the two aren't mutually exclusively. Because once again, "I will always love her" is a pretty strong thing to say, to the degree that if Catherine were male, nobody would ever question "his" feelings towards her.
> Two characters can joke about getting married without it being serious.
That feels like a pretty blatant misrepresentation of how that scene plays out, considering Catherine is rendered
https://youtu.be/xqb7fkxeaOk?t=443
And while I couldn't find a direct source on the Japanese version of their support chain, this thread is filled with people who experienced the Japanese version: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/cxtby2/i_know_catherine_and_shamir_have_that_ending_but/ and it's pretty clear it was changed in the localization. It's not something people made up for the sake of it
I honestly did read Catherine's words about Rhea as a super strong crush at least, so I'm all for leaving Ambiguously Bi in there. It's Ambiguously Bi, after all, and quoting from the trope's Playing With page: "Straight: Daniel is in a relationship with Shirley but frequently comments on how attractive he finds Oliver and other males."
Catherine obviously can get with males. Catherine also talks about how much she loves Rhea. There's nothing explicit, but, well, the trope we're discussion isn't "Explicitly Bi". Also, the other Straight Example? "Daniel has dated women before and openly has a crush on Shirley, but also has a very close friendship with Oliver that could be interpreted as something more." Sounds like Catherine and Shamir all right.
So how do we proceed from here? I still think Ambigiuously Bi would be appropriate, but I'm willing to compromise on "if it's you, it's okay" regarding Catherine if everyone else feels strongly about it
Everything I do is for Y
The links you provided do not properly display for me, so I cannot really comment on those.
At the moment I remain unconvinced, there isn't enough to say she fits.
Muramasa got.
The first link is simply a youtube video linking to Catherine's A-rank support with Shamir. I recommend rewatching A & A+ in its entirety before proceeding. The other thread is a discussion thread on reddit talking about Catherine's Japanese support with Shamir. It's a relatively well-worn discussion point, so simply searching "Catherine Shamir Japanese support" on google should link you to the reddit thread
Everything I do is for Y
So we've reached yet another impasse, and i'm not sure how to proceed. I believe there's grounds enough to warrant ambiguous bisexuality for Catherine while Keyblade doesn't. Perhaps we can reach a compromise then, with a "if it's you, it's okay" entry for both Catherine and Shamir?
Everything I do is for Y
I am genuinely curious though - Keyblade, what would be enough? Imo, "If it's you, it's okay" sounds like there's more "proof" than what there would be for Ambiguously Bi, but I'm guessing that's a ymmv.
Speaking of... "Ambiguously" Bi is kinda YMMV in its nature. Point still stands that the trope examples are "Character often comments how attractive they find people of the same gender" (which Catherine's adoration of Rhea fits; I'm pretty sure she at one point says she loves Rhea - though she admittedly uses "Daisuki" in Japanese, which can be both Romantic Love and "Like A Lot"), and "Character has a very close same gender friendship that could be interpreted as romantic". Catherine and Shamir definitely have a very close same gender friendship, which is interpreted as potentially romantic by at least two tropers here. And iirc the endings are basically what history finds out about them, and uh... No idea how Fódlan's historians are, but our world's have a history "No Homo"-ing important figures.
Except quite a few paired endings have zero issue stating that important same sex characters were in a romantic relationship. Claiming historians don't know one way or another is one thing (quite a few are meant to be ambiguous), but it seems unlikely the paired endings are intended to be censored. For me one issue is that it seems odd they would create bisexual characters and make them available to only one gender of Byleth (when character wise the two are essentially identical aside from gender).
Edited by Perentie
There could be a number of reasons for this. Perhaps they wanted to limit the number of same-sex relationships to avoid a scenario wherein "everyone is bi." But the fact remains that there are characters like Petra who end up in relationships of the same sex that don't involve Byleth.
Everything I do is for Y
Keep in mind that we have endings like Petra and Dorothea who explicitly state that they get together. The endings are important because they inform us of the outcome of the two characters relationship.
I think saying "Well Fodlan's historians would just overwrite their sexuality" is not what was happening. That seems very much like a projection.
Catherine and Shamir have a close friendship and while there are shippy elements to it, their paired ending simply says they traveled as heroes. We have to go off of what is presented, not what we want.
Muramasa got.
You're misunderstanding my argument if you think this is from the perspective of wishful thinking on my part. I just think it's questionable that a woman can say she loves someone (and pause for emphasis) https://imgur.com/a/kE9pP5P and blush furiously in response to Shamir's proposal (joke or not) and that isn't grounds for being ambigiously bi. If Catherine were male, it wouldn't even be in question whether she had feelings (no matter how slight) towards Shamir and Rhea. And once again, being devoted to someone is not mutual exclusive with having feelings for them.
I think you're relying too much on the endings as some final arbiter for sexuality when that's not how it works on TV Tropes. If there's evidence to support to /potential/ for a character to be gay, than the ambigiously gay trope is used. If the endings were definitive, we would flat out use "Bi The Way"
Everything I do is for Y
As confused as I still am as to why they would make bisexual characters that only one Byleth can get with (even with Petra's case supposedly confirmed), I do think Ziodyne has a point that in some way the ambiguity should be mentioned, especially in the case of Catherine/Shamir (while still noting that outside of such a paired ending Shamir's supports show zero same-sex interest). On the other hand, I still personally disagree that her love for Rhea is implied to be romantic, or at least conventionally romantic. One doesn't usually state they "revere" the object of their romantic interest or treat them as the voice for communicating ultimate moral authority.
Perhaps Maybe Ever After could even fit for Catherine/Shamir, given it's already used for a number of female/male paired endings where it's ambiguous if the relationship was romantic or not?
Edited by Perentie
"Catherine and Shamir have a close friendship and while there are shippy elements to it, their paired ending simply says they traveled as heroes. We have to go off of what is presented, not what we want." Here's the thing... We're talking about the trope Ambiguously Bi. If it were Bi The Way or something similar? I'd probably be with you. But the point of Ambiguously Bi is not needing certain proof, or at least that's what I'm taking away from the trope text. As you said, there's shippy elements. Not enough for a trope like Bi The Way, but hints are all that Ambiguously Bi needs. What is presented is a marriage proposal, and an "I love Rhea!". I haven't seen their ending yet, but apparently, while they don't explicitly marry, they don't explicitly marry anyone else in there, either. And in several endings, Catherine ends up following Rhea to Zanado, even if she's married to someone else. What's also presented is nothing definitive, and that neither Catherine nor Shamir are available to Female Byleth, which means they're not Bi The Way.
Also, note I haven't said they would overwrite it; I've mentioned it as a possibility. Plus the possibility that they simply do not know. Or that Catherine and Shamir might be in a relationship, but didn't marry for one reason or another (IIRC not even Hubert and Edelgard get to marry, and they definitely have romantic feelings for each other). Not even Petra and Dorothea actually get to marry - Dorothea is "the person Petra loved most", but no mention of marriage, and tbh I've called my friends that. Dorothea and Manuela, on the other hand, at least get "Their relationship was filled with light and love" - Again, no marriage, but it's something. Similar for the on TV Tropes "Ambiguously Bi" Annette; she and Mercedes run an orphanage together, but no mention of a romantic relationship or marriage. My point being, the only time a same-sex relationship/ending is definitely, 100% unambiguous... Is with Byleth. But, well, we're not looking for "definitely, 100% unambiguous". We're looking for "hinted at".
I don't intend to continue without majority agreement, but I must reiterate my stance in that I think ambiguously Bi would be appropriate for Catherine.
Everything I do is for Y
Once again, i'm asking for a mini consensus before I proceed. I think there's strong enough evidence in the game's text to support the Ambiguously Bi trope for Catherine. Are there any hard oppositions, or can I proceed?
Everything I do is for Y
I'd say if the others don't respond again, go ahead. Most (though not all!) of what I've seen here against Ambiguously Bi was "Nothing explicitly states they're in love/married/etc", which would be a different trope entirely. But that's just my opinion, so idk if someone else would like to comment, too.
What speaks to me here is that perhaps 'Ambiguously Bi' is poorly or confusingly named; I have changed things from this myself because it seems very strongly to suggest outright bisexuality rather than mere hints; so my apologies if I have been incorrect for doing so, it would not be my intention to edit war.
Perhaps the trope name itself needs looking at, rather than what it applies to. Sometimes 'ambiguously bi' translates as 'they're clearly bi, just look at the hints!' which isn't helpful; the Bob's Burgers quote on the definition page should perhaps be changed to something that is genuinely ambiguous (such as Bond's reaction to Silva's touching of him in Skyfall for example; was Bond serious? Or was he just trying to mess with him?). Honestly I think the whole trope is VERY YMMV. In fact, the trope page itself says that Ambiguously Bi is largely a matter of opinion, so this kind of discussion doesn't seem likely to go away unless the trope itself is looked at.
Edited by Alooulla
Reviving this issue since keyblade and I have reached an impasse. I think the very premise of his argument (the game needing to have these ambiguously gay moments validated by endings) is flawed, since it's not something consistently applied throughout the series and we can blatantly see that Dimitri's section has ambiguouslybi tag for even less concrete reasons than Catherine
Everything I do is for Y
On a related note I thought I recalled a mass purging of "ambiguously bi" entries in general some time ago that led me to think the trope as a whole was getting discarded for some reason. I agree the one with Dimitri should be erased if we want to hold him to the same standard as Catherine. Other than that though, I feel out of my depth in discussing this.
It seems to be applied to Catherine now, but not to Shamir. I suppose that's something of a compromise, and until 'Ambiguously Bi' is looked at as a trope on its own, seems like that's the best course of action.
Wouldn't it make more sense if the knights and instructors' entries are combined instead of with the inner church group
Get Out of Our Home.
So... for the similarities between Rhea and Edelgard, what trope DOES work? Why are Foil and Not So Different invalid?
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I'm curious too as to what trope would fit, as I rather like what I wrote comparing them.
First, let me just say that a cardinal mistake is to assume that every tidbit of information needs to be troped in some way. I know it can be tempting to notice some interesting pattern and then keep trying find a trope that fits it — but if it's a choice between not adding an example or trying to squeeze it in...not adding it will win every time.
In this case, however, I think you have a legitimate case for Foil. The way the story is written, especially with the branching paths narrative, I think it's a very deliberate writing choice to show that Rhea, Dimitri and Edelgard are all Foils to each other in one form or another. Such as Rhea and Edelgard both doing what they think are correct, using horrible means to accomplish it while demonizing the other side, and so on.
Curly Goddess
Bringing this here to ask Tropers.Changer for more clarification.
- Ambiguous Disorder: Flayn is very Literal-Minded and also tends to think in very black-and-white terms (for example, she can't wrap her head around the idea that a male person and female goddess could merge). She is also a Bad Liar, her speech (even for a Nabatean) is much too formal and monotone, and her demeanor is often regarded as immature or childlike. Nothing is ever said in-universe, but she is ambiguously coded as autistic.
They removed for the reasons:
"By this definition, pretty much all of the cast is ambiguously coded as something. Not to mention that while cherrypicking (questionably) some of her qualities may hint at autism, the rest of said qualities disprove it quite hard. She's just an anime stereotype (with admittedly solid characterization growing off of it), but doubtfully anything more."
This explanation doesn't really say anything. As stated in the example, while some of the cast (namely Nabateans) may exhibit some of the traits mentioned, Flayn demonstrates them to an exaggerated degree. So, which cast members, specifically, are you saying would also qualify, and how do their traits even come close to Flayn's in sheer quantity or extent?
Secondly, which qualities "disprove it quite hard"? Again, this is rather vague.
Lastly, being an anime stereotype, nor is how good or bad the characterization is have anything to do with this. Neither are mutually exclusive to an ambiguously-coded autistic character.
Edited by NubianSatyress Hide / Show Replies
The traits you list as "ambiguously coded autism" are, to this troper's opinion, simply caused by her being a naive, child-like character who spent better part of the last thousand years sleeping and therefore works as both a bit Fish out of Temporal Water (that's why she speaks in slightly archaic manner, at least in English) and as a kid who simply didn't have time to grow up.
She doesn't really exhibit the usual problems in communication listed as autistic behavior - she's not avoiding communication, doesn't have problems understanding or expressing emotions, she's just inexperienced at social interaction due to being shielded by her "brother" to an extreme degree and spending better part of the last few hundred years asleep. She's actually shown to be quite capable of empathy.
She also does not speak monotone, unless you've only seen like... 3 supports.
Being an absolutely hopeless liar isn't a trait exclusive to autism, either, especially since Seteth himself is not really great at keeping the ruse (he slips way more often than that, but the most obvious are his supports with Hanneman). It speaks more of complete lack of preparation along the lines of Didn't Think This Through than any mental disorder, ambiguous or otherwise.
Common trait of AS is also obsessing with detail-oriented work, which is something that Flayn explicitly sucks at (according to her support with Linhardt).
... actually, speaking of Linhardt, he actually does exhibit more common autism-related traits (doesn't glue with others on emotional levels/has different understanding and priorities regarding basic emotions, tends to obsess over things to the point of forgetting even basic needs, speaks quite monotone, etc.). Not entirely sure if his entry lists this, but I do believe I did see it there. Flayn is nothing like him.
And the reason I list anime stereotype is simple: anime exaggerates character traits and emotional states of characters. Flayn is simply a typical (if uncommonly expanded) version of a profoundly naive, shut-in girl (... since characters like these usually tend to be girls for some reason... odd) who spends the course of the game learning about the world. Nothing in the game suggests her being autistic.
Edited by Changer
There are still a few things I'm not sure I agree with, but you make a pretty strong case.
I'll drop the subject for the moment.
So I just finished Cindered Shadows and I find references here and other pages to Rhea explicitly considering Sitri to be her daughter. For the life of me I couldn't recall her ever saying that so I double checked. The closest she seems to come to that is when she says she considers Aelfric her child in the same way she considered Sitri her child, i.e. a spiritual leader sense. When she notes later that Sitri "looked upon me as though I were her mother" she only says that in return she wanted Sitri to have a bright future, not that she returned Sitri's sentiment. I''d like to do some edits to make this clearer. Admittedly if we want to read her words to Aelfric differently we could, but she honestly seemed too distant from Aelfric for the mother/son dynamic to be fitting, and while she is sad upon his death she doesn't seem to get nearly as upset as she does about death of people she considers family in a intimate familial sense. Or perhaps I'm splitting hairs? If nothing else I'd advocate for it still being a vague matter.
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She is definitely not her biological child in the traditional sense, but as long as nabatean blood had to be involved in Sitri's creation, it had to be Rhea's, so... YMMV on whether that counts for you as mother/child relationship or not.
Ideal and the Real
Why are Raphael, Hilda, and Ferdinand all mentioned under Gilbert's entries and compared to him? There's no guarantee that an Azure Moon player would even get 'em. The only comparison he should really have is Dedue, considering the circumstances.
Edited by xVanitas
I don't wanna start an edit war, so I don't want to delete it immediately, but uh... Rhea is a Karma Houdini despite spending 5 years as a prisoner (and in not so nice circumstances) and giving up her title? One could argue whether that's proportionate punishment (but that's always gonna be a YMMV thing), but Rhea does get punished for her actions on every route, as even the example mentions.
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I removed the example. It's misuse of Karma Houdini, which requires that the character dodge karma completely. Unfortunately, Karma Houdini is one of those tropes that gets misused a lot; too many people think Karma Houdini = "character who I think didn't get punished enough."
Also, the entry starting with "She can be seen as this" is violation of Examples Are Not Arguable.
Why are Catherine and Shamir listed as heterosexual life partners? I see one edit claim that Shamir's proposal was just a joke even though that's not actually stated anywhere that I know of and is just a user's assumption (plus Catherine's reaction implies she thinks Shamir is being serious). On top of that, in the Japanese dialogue Shamir specifically refers to the fact that same sex marriage is more common in Dagda...where they end up in a paired ending. I don't see any real reason to assume their relationship is platonic.
At most I think you can call it a YMMV situation.
Edited by Lesaberisa Hide / Show Replies
I added the entries, and I originally put Shamir's suggestion that they wed as Ambiguously Bi. ~Alooulla removed the pothole to Ambiguously Bi by saying she was joking and it isn't enough evidence to say she's Ambiguously Bi, which I didn't contest, since it's fair enough, and Shamir did make some lighthearted comments in that conversation...though there is at least some Ship Tease there with Catherine's reaction imo.
Does their Japanese ending mention explicit romance, or even hint at it beyond a reasonable doubt? The English just says they went on a lifelong journey together, and since they admit to one another that they're the closest of friends and inseperable, they qualify for Heterosexual Life-Partners, but not romantic.
Edited by ILikeRobots Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Ah, thanks for replying.
Here's the Japanese translation I'm basing my question on: https://pakaplus.tumblr.com/post/187222802853/shamir-and-catherine-if-you-insist-ill
Their ending is the same, I believe.
I understand their ending doesn't explicitly state anything romantic, so maybe I'm misunderstanding how tropes are added - it's less that I think it's clear it IS romantic than I think it's ambiguous enough to think it doesn't make sense to assume it isn't. Manuela's own entry above notes that her ending with Dorothea could be read as romantic, and labels her as ambiguously bi, for example, and I think that's the case here.
Edited by Lesaberisa
Generally it's better to trope based on things that are confirmed, or at least true beyond a reasonable doubt. Ambiguously Bi does exist, but it requires a fair amount of hints toward a character possibly being bisexual. I would categorize the end of that support as Ship Tease most definitely, but it doesn't look like it goes anywhere. Neither Catherine nor Shamir get any other romantic scenes with other women, and since the ending doesn't state anything romantic, and puts an emphasis on their strong friendship, I believe that Heterosexual Life-Partners fits.
I would lobby for at least an addition to the entries mentioning the bit of Ship Tease the two get at the end of that support.
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
I definitely agree on not including stuff that's not clear or 99% clear - that's why I was thinking it could be in the YMMV area or something. I've only ever read these entries so am new to the standards and what not!
I'm still not convinced that their ending should be classified as platonic (to me, if their A+ Support is read as sincere, then them ending up in Dagda while spending their lives together is more meaningful) but that's firmly in YMMV territory. Maybe it'll be clarified as some point, I guess.
Anyway, thanks for clarifying.
Edited by Lesaberisa
So yeah, i've really noticed that Rhea does tick all the boxes for the Gharnef, and has so much similarities with Lyon and Sephiran.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Here is their support ending:
After quitting the Knights of Seiros, Catherine and Shamir set out on a lifelong journey together. The pair were inseparable as they traveled across Fódlan, and eventually wound up in Shamir’s homeland of Dagda. They faced many hardships on their adventures, some of which were self-inflicted, as the duo had a way of sticking their noses into others’ business in their efforts to right wrongs. It is said, however, that no foe they encountered ever proved a match for the combined might of Shamir’s marksmanship and Catherine’s Thunderbrand.
No romantic elements mentioned.
Muramasa got.
I've added in Ship Tease to Catherine and Shamir regarding the ending of their A+ support, with a blushing and flustered Catherine after Shamir insists that they wed, since most people think that there isn't enough evidence for Ambiguously Bi for Shamir. I think that's a fair thing, and I've mentioned that the English ending doesn't confirm romance.
If details about the Japanese version are different, feel free to add to the entry.
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Manuela's example may be a good reference for reading too much into certain things too. A lot of her dialog is flirtatious regardless of sex, however in her supports with female Byleth she will at one point say "if only you were a man" or something like that, which explicitly doesn't fit if she's really ambiguously bi.
Her paired ending with Dorothea does have a bit of romantic subtext at the least, with the ending line saying the couple "retreated to a private life together" and that their relationship was "full of light and love," which may fit Ambiguously Bi along with her flirty dialogue.
Just my take on it. I wouldn't protest if it was cut, but her line about wishing female Byleth was a man does throw a bit of a wrench into it.
Edited by ILikeRobots Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
I have to ask - why does Cyril include a link to "Maybe Ever After" with Shamir and reference the "ambiguous nature" of their relationship in their ending? It seems wholly inconsistent with how Catherine/Shamir are treated given that
(1) Cyril and Shamir have no romantic text in their ending - in fact, their paired ending only talks about how they were Robin Hood types, while Catherine and Shamir's at least references them being on a "lifelong journey" and inseparable (and as I mentioned above, the Japanese translation of their A+ makes them winding up in Dagda more meaningful). Given that the heterosexual endings are much more explicit about romance than the same-sex ones (i.e. specifically reference kids/marriage rather than say "person she loved the most" like in Dorothea/Petra)...
(2) The entire idea that Cyril and Shamir might be a romantic pairing is based on one line/outburst from Cyril and literally nothing else. There's no indication Shamir views him as anything but her student/mentee and her reaction is to basically tell him "let's both forget you ever said this" while he blushes. Every other interaction with him is a mentor/mentee one and even the entry here acknowledges it.
Again - to compare with Catherine/Shamir...even if you assume Shamir's proposal was joking (which is editorializing, not simply reading the text as the standard is supposed to be), their A+ support is all about them finally admitting how much they mean to each other/making comparisons to dead former loves/partners/talking about lifelong commitments, etc. and the Japanese translation is even more suggestive (Shamir talking about being "more than partners" and the Dagda stuff).
I'm confused as to why the pairing with the actual meaningful romantic subtext and an actual proposal/suggestion to wed (even if you decide to discount it) is stated as firmly platonic/non-romantic while another with a single line of dialogue that is then seemingly rejected is treated as ambiguous.
Edited by Lesaberisa
I see your point, though saying his words are "rejected" and the romantic undertone is based on only Cyril's one line may be overstating things given Shamir also thanks Cyril for what he said to her and before this is shocked into silence by his "confession." That she didn't joke about it and admitted she was touched is meaningful.
I think the idea that Shamir was joking with Catherine is supported by her "I may tire of you" if they did marry line (when Shamir does speak of romance she tends to be pretty serious), as well as the lack of any other indications that she or Catherine have any romantic interest in the same sex. Honestly I think it can be hard to justify implied pairings when they don't include either character as a same sex option for Byleth, unless the game is explicit about it (as Petra/Dorothea apparently is in the Japanese version).
I'd be fine with some kind of compromise though, since we apparently do have a example of "it's okay if its you" with Petra/Dorothea.
There's no indication that her response to him is romantic though - especially since it's played as a precocious crush on his part and there's no reference to their interpersonal relationship in their ending, let alone any romantic implications (his entry here also stretches things by saying they seemingly spend the rest of their lives together when their ending actually refers to rumors/stories about them being heard for years).
In their support, Shamir also immediately returns to focusing him on his training:
Shamir: OK, Cyril. Let's forget this conversation ever happened. And...thank you. Now stop standing around. We have work to do.
Sounds like a pretty professional "okay then, let's move on and get back to work" when you'd expect her to say something to reciprocate if she actually had any romantic interest.
Or compare their conversation with her unambiguous romantic supports (I'm ignoring Catherine for this). Shamir's A supports with Byleth, Hubert and Dedue all include explicit romantic statements/dialogue where she expresses interest in them *and* each pair has endings that specifically state marriage and have her settling down. Neither her conversations or ending with Cyril show any sign of reciprocation or romantic intent on her part (presumably at least in part because she's been training him since he was a teen/pre-teen so it'd be a little weird!) - in fact, their ending doesn't even reference them on a personal level at all and is in line with her platonic Robin Hood/mercenary/wandering endings with other characters.
Given all that, the only "ambiguity" I see is that their ending doesn't have a line explicitly saying it's platonic, I guess.
Anyway, my point was more about the hypocrisy of on one hand saying stuff like "Shamir and Catherine's ending doesn't explicitly reference romance" (which both ignores the text of their A+ support in both languages and also ignores the importance of going to Dagda in the Japanese version) to justify claiming there's no way it's a romantic pairing while an entry on the same page leans heavily on the "well technically it doesn't explicitly say it's 100% definitely platonic" for Cyril. Given the vastly different levels of text and subtext to support either pairing being romantic, I can't help but see this as a massive double standard, to put it diplomatically.
That aside, I think their ending being romantic despite them not being, say, S-support options for female Byleth makes sense like it does for Dorothea/Petra. Their strong feelings are made clear even if on opposite sides of the war in Crimson Flower - Shamir even mentions she fears Catherine will be driven to kill her by "mixed emotions of hate and love", and there are good reasons for each character to view the other differently than they would another woman (or character in general) based on their past and emotional issues/general characterization. Both reference their emotional connections to partners they lost in their A+...Catherine's two most meaningful/strongest relationships are with women after all (Rhea and Shamir)...Shamir shows the most emotion and vulnerability when talking with or (in CF's case) about Catherine, etc.
Deliberately deleting/removing any references to their relationship even possibly (not even definitely!) being romantic does readers a disservice by providing an incomplete picture of the characters and story. Given the general reception/reaction to their supports/ending I suspect more than a few people would be confused as well.
Edited by Lesaberisa
Regarding the "fantastic racism" entry for Rhea, I deleted it because I don't think there is enough support for it, or rather what support exists is too ambiguous. I of course am willing to be convinced, but I think the game is too unclear about what teachings and words regarding Crest bearers were motivated by Rhea's personal feelings/beliefs and what were motivated by her wanting to keep the truth about Crests hidden and various other agendas.
Her saying Miklan was unworthy and unqualified isn't strong evidence when one considers Rhea knows why he actually turned into a monster has nothing to do with the goddess and she is trying to hide the truth about Crests and relics. The official Church teachings (which Rhea either wrote or approved) also don't seem to say any Crest bearers aside from the originals were chosen by the goddess. Rather it says the descendants of those chosen ones abused their powers and drove the goddess away. It seems condemning of such Crest users more than anything else.
There is a certain lack of logic to the idea that Rhea would regard Crest bearers more highly than other humans too, given that with a the exception of her own Crest and a few others, the Crests are reminders of the people who stole her family's lives and powers. She may not blame them for what their ancestors did, but it'd be quite a leap to consider them as better than the people who don't have such ancestors.
As for seeing Nabateans as superior to humans, Rhea making sure she is in power need not be motivated by any feeling of racial/species superiority so much as necessity for her to keep the past a secret and to keep influencing Fodlan for the sake of Sothis' return. We know that she herself doesn't even think she's the best person to wield the authority she does. It's telling too that it's not like Seteth is her second in command, he's mostly an advisor and administrator, there are apparently a number of humans in the church that are of similar rank as him. And Flayn has little to no authority at all.
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Good luck with that. Fantastic racism is a magnet for edit wars. Just look at Edelgard's section. For the record, i think she view most humans as equal, but her teachings are off putting. I mean i wrote the section on Humans are bastards for her, and it's a complicated example.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
I vote to delete it again. The evidence amounts to a single scene that seems more likely to be Rhea maintaining her cover.
Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
Doing a big edit to this page.
I removed quotation marks around "those who slither in the dark" because that is a description, not a name.
I reworded a few examples to be less spoilery; in particular, I replaced a number of references to Edelgard with the Flame Emperor.
I replaced all instances of "Nabatean(s)" with "Child(ren) of the Goddess", because that is the term used in the game.
I removed references to Seiros not being her original name, because it is. The idea that it isn't is based on the line "I called myself Seiros", but the correct reading of that is that is the name she went by a millennium ago, but hasn't used it in ages. If you have Seteth fight Macuil, he calls her Seiros, and since he is Cichol, he would know.
I also moved Gilbert's section to the very end, because he's only available on Azure Moon.
Tropes I removed:
General
This has nothing to do with the Church.
This trope is for states where the Church is the government. While influential, the Church of Seiros does not hold political authority or temporal power. It therefore is not a theocracy according to the definition of the trope.
Rhea
And anti-villain is a villain with good intentions, not a hero who does bad things. Rhea has done plenty of bad things, but was always striving for a greater good, and is only the antagonist on the secret hidden route where you work with the actual villains.
Yeah, at that point Byleth is actively fighting against her and trying to kill her. Her reaction is pretty reasonable.
That's a stretch. Particularly since you can't share a meal, do choir practice, or battle alongside Rhea, and before updates couldn't even take her to tea.
This is all about class rather than race.
What?
NPCs only get a small set of spells. I'm sure she'd have a full spell list if she was playable. (If this is derived from hacking, it doesn't count as an example at all).
That doesn't really come across as romantic.
This feels more like with Rhea is working on incomplete information, or True From A Certain Point Of View.
These are completely different events.
Shadow Archetype doesn't actually mean shady counterpart.
This trope doesn't apply across continuities.
Rhea isn't a narrator. She a single character being economical with the truth.
Seteth
This trope is specifically about having power over rocks and soil, which Seteth never exhibits.
Oh come on, this is no weirder than a human riding a horse.
This is a harem trope that doesn't apply here, since you can marry anybody you please, and somebody is going to be last.
Flayn
She doesn't exhibit this ability in the game, and there's no indication that 'Adjective Dragon' is meant to describe abilities.
Aelfric
This trope is about the in-universe realisation that two characters are more similar than they thought.
Jeralt
This trope applies to enemies.
It's not a noode incident if we find out what it is.
Catherine
This is a harem trope. And you'll definitely recruit at least one other woman after getting Catherine.
Shamir
Catherine's are bigger.
Naytheism is about refusing to worship a deity that clearly exists. Shamir is indifferent, and works for the Knights of Seiros for the money.
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