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Discussion Characters / FireEmblemThreeHousesTheChurchOfSeiros

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Nov 9th 2019 at 10:20:44 AM •••

Regarding the \"fantastic racism\" entry for Rhea, I deleted it because I don\'t think there is enough support for it, or rather what support exists is too ambiguous. I of course am willing to be convinced, but I think the game is too unclear about what teachings and words regarding Crest bearers were motivated by Rhea\'s personal feelings/beliefs and what were motivated by her wanting to keep the truth about Crests hidden and various other agendas.

Her saying Miklan was unworthy and unqualified isn\'t strong evidence when one considers Rhea knows why he actually turned into a monster has nothing to do with the goddess and she is trying to hide the truth about Crests and relics. The official Church teachings (which Rhea either wrote or approved) also don\'t seem to say any Crest bearers aside from the originals were chosen by the goddess. Rather it says the descendants of those chosen ones abused their powers and drove the goddess away. It seems condemning of such Crest users more than anything else.

There is a certain lack of logic to the idea that Rhea would regard Crest bearers more highly than other humans too, given that with a the exception of her own Crest and a few others, the Crests are reminders of the people who stole her family\'s lives and powers. She may not blame them for what their ancestors did, but it\'d be quite a leap to consider them as better than the people who don\'t have such ancestors.

As for seeing Nabateans as superior to humans, Rhea making sure she is in power need not be motivated by any feeling of racial/species superiority so much as necessity for her to keep the past a secret and to keep influencing Fodlan for the sake of Sothis\' return. We know that she herself doesn\'t even think she\'s the best person to wield the authority she does. It\'s telling too that it\'s not like Seteth is her second in command, he\'s mostly an advisor and administrator, there are apparently a number of humans in the church that are of similar rank as him. And Flayn has little to no authority at all.

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Nov 10th 2019 at 4:38:03 AM •••

Good luck with that. Fantastic racism is a magnet for edit wars. Just look at Edelgard\'s section. For the record, i think she view most humans as equal, but her teachings are off putting. I mean i wrote the section on Humans are bastards for her, and it\'s a complicated example.

Nov 7th 2019 at 11:02:05 PM •••

What\'s Jeritza\'s starting class when you recruit him?

Sep 20th 2019 at 8:08:15 PM •••

Why are Catherine and Shamir listed as heterosexual life partners? I see one edit claim that Shamir\'s proposal was just a joke even though that\'s not actually stated anywhere that I know of and is just a user\'s assumption (plus Catherine\'s reaction implies she thinks Shamir is being serious). On top of that, in the Japanese dialogue Shamir specifically refers to the fact that same sex marriage is more common in Dagda...where they end up in a paired ending. I don\'t see any real reason to assume their relationship is platonic.

At most I think you can call it a YMMV situation.

Edited by Lesaberisa Hide/Show Replies
Sep 20th 2019 at 8:14:19 PM •••

I added the entries, and I originally put Shamir\'s suggestion that they wed as Ambiguously Bi. ~Alooulla removed the pothole to Ambiguously Bi by saying she was joking and it isn\'t enough evidence to say she\'s Ambiguously Bi, which I didn\'t contest, since it\'s fair enough, and Shamir did make some lighthearted comments in that conversation...though there is at least some Ship Tease there with Catherine\'s reaction imo.

Does their Japanese ending mention explicit romance, or even hint at it beyond a reasonable doubt? The English just says they went on a lifelong journey together, and since they admit to one another that they\'re the closest of friends and inseperable, they qualify for Heterosexual Life Partners, but not romantic.

Edited by ILikeRobots
Sep 20th 2019 at 8:24:43 PM •••

Ah, thanks for replying.

Here\'s the Japanese translation I\'m basing my question on: https://pakaplus.tumblr.com/post/187222802853/shamir-and-catherine-if-you-insist-ill

Their ending is the same, I believe.

I understand their ending doesn\'t explicitly state anything romantic, so maybe I\'m misunderstanding how tropes are added - it\'s less that I think it\'s clear it IS romantic than I think it\'s ambiguous enough to think it doesn\'t make sense to assume it isn\'t. Manuela\'s own entry above notes that her ending with Dorothea could be read as romantic, and labels her as ambiguously bi, for example, and I think that\'s the case here.

Edited by Lesaberisa
Sep 20th 2019 at 8:29:27 PM •••

Generally it\'s better to trope based on things that are confirmed, or at least true beyond a reasonable doubt. Ambiguously Bi does exist, but it requires a fair amount of hints toward a character possibly being bisexual. I would categorize the end of that support as Ship Tease most definitely, but it doesn\'t look like it goes anywhere. Neither Catherine nor Shamir get any other romantic scenes with other women, and since the ending doesn\'t state anything romantic, and puts an emphasis on their strong friendship, I believe that Heterosexual Life Partners fits.

I would lobby for at least an addition to the entries mentioning the bit of Ship Tease the two get at the end of that support.

Sep 20th 2019 at 8:41:25 PM •••

I definitely agree on not including stuff that\'s not clear or 99% clear - that\'s why I was thinking it could be in the YMMV area or something. I\'ve only ever read these entries so am new to the standards and what not!

I\'m still not convinced that their ending should be classified as platonic (to me, if their A+ Support is read as sincere, then them ending up in Dagda while spending their lives together is more meaningful) but that\'s firmly in YMMV territory. Maybe it\'ll be clarified as some point, I guess.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

Edited by Lesaberisa
Sep 24th 2019 at 9:29:08 AM •••

So yeah, i\'ve really noticed that Rhea does tick all the boxes for the Gharnef, and has so much similarities with Lyon and Sephiran.

Sep 24th 2019 at 3:33:20 PM •••

Here is their support ending:

After quitting the Knights of Seiros, Catherine and Shamir set out on a lifelong journey together. The pair were inseparable as they traveled across Fódlan, and eventually wound up in Shamir’s homeland of Dagda. They faced many hardships on their adventures, some of which were self-inflicted, as the duo had a way of sticking their noses into others’ business in their efforts to right wrongs. It is said, however, that no foe they encountered ever proved a match for the combined might of Shamir’s marksmanship and Catherine’s Thunderbrand.

No romantic elements mentioned.

Sep 24th 2019 at 3:47:02 PM •••

I\'ve added in Ship Tease to Catherine and Shamir regarding the ending of their A+ support, with a blushing and flustered Catherine after Shamir insists that they wed, since most people think that there isn\'t enough evidence for Ambiguously Bi for Shamir. I think that\'s a fair thing, and I\'ve mentioned that the English ending doesn\'t confirm romance.

If details about the Japanese version are different, feel free to add to the entry.

Sep 25th 2019 at 4:19:36 AM •••

Manuela\'s example may be a good reference for reading too much into certain things too. A lot of her dialog is flirtatious regardless of sex, however in her supports with female Byleth she will at one point say \"if only you were a man\" or something like that, which explicitly doesn\'t fit if she\'s really ambiguously bi.

Sep 25th 2019 at 3:30:32 PM •••

Her paired ending with Dorothea does have a bit of romantic subtext at the least, with the ending line saying the couple \"retreated to a private life together\" and that their relationship was \"full of light and love,\" which may fit Ambiguously Bi along with her flirty dialogue.

Just my take on it. I wouldn\'t protest if it was cut, but her line about wishing female Byleth was a man does throw a bit of a wrench into it.

Edited by ILikeRobots
Oct 7th 2019 at 8:02:23 AM •••

I have to ask - why does Cyril include a link to \"Maybe Ever After\" with Shamir and reference the \"ambiguous nature\" of their relationship in their ending? It seems wholly inconsistent with how Catherine/Shamir are treated given that

(1) Cyril and Shamir have no romantic text in their ending - in fact, their paired ending only talks about how they were Robin Hood types, while Catherine and Shamir\'s at least references them being on a \"lifelong journey\" and inseparable (and as I mentioned above, the Japanese translation of their A+ makes them winding up in Dagda more meaningful). Given that the heterosexual endings are much more explicit about romance than the same-sex ones (i.e. specifically reference kids/marriage rather than say \"person she loved the most\" like in Dorothea/Petra)...

(2) The entire idea that Cyril and Shamir might be a romantic pairing is based on one line/outburst from Cyril and literally nothing else. There\'s no indication Shamir views him as anything but her student/mentee and her reaction is to basically tell him \"let\'s both forget you ever said this\" while he blushes. Every other interaction with him is a mentor/mentee one and even the entry here acknowledges it.

Again - to compare with Catherine/Shamir...even if you assume Shamir\'s proposal was joking (which is editorializing, not simply reading the text as the standard is supposed to be), their A+ support is all about them finally admitting how much they mean to each other/making comparisons to dead former loves/partners/talking about lifelong commitments, etc. and the Japanese translation is even more suggestive (Shamir talking about being \"more than partners\" and the Dagda stuff).

I\'m confused as to why the pairing with the actual meaningful romantic subtext and an actual proposal/suggestion to wed (even if you decide to discount it) is stated as firmly platonic/non-romantic while another with a single line of dialogue that is then seemingly rejected is treated as ambiguous.

Edited by Lesaberisa
Nov 9th 2019 at 10:03:42 AM •••

I see your point, though saying his words are \"rejected\" and the romantic undertone is based on only Cyril\'s one line may be overstating things given Shamir also thanks Cyril for what he said to her and before this is shocked into silence by his \"confession.\" That she didn\'t joke about it and admitted she was touched is meaningful.

I think the idea that Shamir was joking with Catherine is supported by her \"I may tire of you\" if they did marry line (when Shamir does speak of romance she tends to be pretty serious), as well as the lack of any other indications that she or Catherine have any romantic interest in the same sex. Honestly I think it can be hard to justify implied pairings when they don\'t include either character as a same sex option for Byleth, unless the game is explicit about it (as Petra/Dorothea apparently is in the Japanese version).

I\'d be fine with some kind of compromise though, since we apparently do have a example of \"it\'s okay if its you\" with Petra/Dorothea.

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