Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Tamir is NOT this example though. Majd Addin the one who did all For the Evulz. Tamir is a Well-Intentioned Extremist (like everybody else).

Palpatine: Even if he sincerely thought the galaxy was better off under Sith rule, it's pretty clear that's not the case, making him more of a Knight Templar than a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and KTs can be CMs. Besides, I'm quite partial to the idea of treating him on a media-to-media basis; he's not the only one to receive the treatment. Also, what Shaoken said.

Coldman: The amount of wonking over this is getting really, really tiresome. Stop it or you'll get the same treatment as a certain pony lover from a while back. In fact, it's probably better for everybody that you don't touch this trope anymore. Sorry for being so blunt, but sometimes you really need to avoid situations you know will spark ugly conflict (one of the numerous reasons I don't drive is because I know I'd be suceptible to road rage, asshole drivers being a bit of a Berserk Button for me). Also, since this is one character I've read virtually nothing about exccept on this thread, I'll defer to the judgement of my fellow tropers (well, the majority anyway).

Volgin: This is the first time I saw anyone trying to give him altruistic motives. EVER. I always considered him a rather clear cut example.

Weil: Even allowing for (dubious) Well-Intentioned Extremist tendencies at first, he crossed the Moral Event Horizon way too often and way too hard for anyone to take it seriously in the end. A guy who says with complete sincerity "I AM THE DEVIL" while doing something that makes both in-story characters and the audience think he may actually be right can't really be called well-intentioned.

And we all know that flaw, which is why we've allowed Knight Templar CMs (the main difference between KT and WIE being that while both think their goals promote the greater good, the WIE has a somewhat valid point despite their questionable methods, while the KT may be (and very often is) completely wrong).

edited 11th May '12 7:58:43 AM by Paireon

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.

I'd also support labelling Palpatine separately for all the different media and such.

That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.

And now for other subjects:

Naruto CMs: I agree with what was said earlier. Hidan and Tobi should stay. Gato's not defined enough and so should be cut, Kabuto and Danzo are out too.

Zoda from Star Tropics: Yeah, too much of a Generic Doomsday Villain vibe.

Blofeld, Tamir, Mirage: The first one IMO comes closest, but I have no problem with them being cut (there were hints that Mirage was redeemable in at least one ep as well, when it was revealed she and Fazeer used to be an item).

Good thing, too. Thanks.

edited 11th May '12 8:18:02 AM by Paireon

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.

I cleaned and locked Monster.Naruto.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

To shorten what Paireon said - don't feed the trolls.

I'm starting to think that it might be useful to have a note "Contrast with Generic Doomsday Villain" or the like on the page. It seems that quite a few examples on the page actually qualify for that trope instead. Mirage is a great example.

Blofield is a Bad Boss and out to Take Over the World, but as pointed out, even he has standards. An easy cut.

Based on what folks are saying about Assassins Creed, I'm fine with cutting the proposed example as well.

Also, since I promised to do this a while ago - my proposed write-up for the One Piece page (including repairing some of the third-level bullet points and clarifying what types of villains are involved):

---

While many of the baddies from One Piece, like Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Spandam and Blackbeard walk the range from insensitive jerks to all out line-crossing assholes, there are a few villains who believe that the above characters just weren't evil enough:

• Several of the Celestial Dragons are slave-owning arrogant bastards. When a slave tries to escape and blows up his collar, one of the Celestial Dragons shoots him while complaining about how pathetic it was that he was whining about his family (who he just wanted to see again). Another one (introduced while riding on a slave), enraged that a doctor and a nurse carrying a wounded man would dare not to kneel in front of him, kicks the injured man off of the stretcher. He then decides to take the nurse as his wife. When her fiancee complains, he shoots him.
• Shiliew/Shiryu of the Rain, former Head Jailer of Impel Down counts. Completely Ax-Crazy, he murders dozens, if not hundreds of prisoners for fun, claiming them to be "just trash" and making the actual Head Jailer Magellan completely disgusted. When freed, he cuts down his former workmates multiple times with not regard for them and sides with Blackbeard. Also, he thinks of betraying Blackbeard if he does not succeed in stealing Whitebeard's power. It's pretty clear he has no empathy and loyalty for anyone but himself.
• Admiral Akainu, a wonderful example of a Knight Templar who crosses the barrier between Well-Intentioned Extremist and Complete Monster. He debuts while crossing the Moral Event Horizon: he orders his subordinates to blow up a ship of evacuees that the Marines had promised to spare. His justification was that he thought that if there were any survivors from Ohara that the world would be in grave danger, although there's no proof that survivors of Ohara actually present any danger. Later in life, he brutally murders anyone who tries to flee from the battle at Marineford. Then there's what he does to Coby. The kid is pretty much the Only Sane Man and calls out everyone for their violence. Akainu immediately tries to kill him - and they're theoretically on the same side. If not for Shanks... He moves the series into Darker and Edgier territory by causing the first major present-day story death. Let's put it this way: when Sengoku stepped down and Aokiji had to fight Akainu for the position, which Aokiji ultimately lost, he left the Marines rather than serve under him. The guy is that bad.
• Then you've got the regular nobles from Goa Kingdom (the island where Luffy hails from). They burn down a trash area of their kingdom, The Gray Terminal, knowing full well people were living there, all so they can impress the visiting Celestial Dragons with a "beautiful kingdom". What makes this really damning? 1) The whole trash area was created from their own waste they dumped into the grounds daily. and 2) They excuse themselves for this action claiming it was the trash people's fault for not being born nobles... Yeah, complete and utter a-holes.
• Caribou is a complete psychopath who gleefully doles out horrible deaths to anyone who even slightly annoys him, and prays to God to forgive them while he's doing it, and the rapist overtones that categorize his actions toward mermaids are just the icing on the cake. Not quite as bad as Hody Jones or Akainu, but he's still a disgusting piece of shit without a single redeeming moment.
• There is also Hody Jones, a Fishman who takes Arlong's Fantastic Racism and turns it Up To Eleven. He's more brutal, more racist, more treacherous, and more cruel, but the kicker? He pulls a reversal on Arlong's sole Pet the Dog moment; whereas Arlong was mortified when Luffy used a Fishman as a human shield, Hodi actually uses a Fishman as a human shield against an attack. One of Arlong's former crew, Hatchi, stated that, while Arlong was a bastard through and through, he'd never hurt a Fishman no matter what. Hody, on the other hand, is known for killing any who talk to or know them. In fact, when he tries to take over Fishman Island, part of his plan is to execute all who had signed Queen Otohime's petition. This means that he's planning to murder thousands of its residents. He already killed Otohime and framed the human he hired to burn the petitions in the first place as part of this plan... and got cocky enough to brag about it in front of all Fishman Island.
• And now we have a new one. Caesar Clown is a psychopathic Mad Scientist who conducts horrific experiments with chemical weapons on living subjects; when asked about a past failure of his that caused massive casualties, he callously denies that it was a failure, instead insisting that it was a testament to his weapons-creating prowess. The fact that he's involved in the events on Punk Hazard is enough to seriously alarm Smoker.

edited 11th May '12 11:46:53 AM by 32_Footsteps

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

I'm not a troll. I don't instigate arguments for my own amusement, nor do I actively try to cause chaos on threads or enjoy making people angry. However, if you guys want me to stop on this thread, I'll stop, but only if no one else tries to bring up Coldman either under any direction. If even one person tries to argue for or against Coldman being one, don't think I won't participate.

On the Assassins Creed example, yeah Tamir was one of the well-intentioned extremists, the Complete Monster I was thinking about was already listed on the page.

At the one piece example, could you name those members of the Celestial Dragons? Caribou is waaay too close to a forum-like post for my tastes; if he's a CM you don't need to call him a piece of shit.

The problem is that I requested the deletion of Tamir and Mirage, but I have been ignored. Can you request it for me Shaoken?

You're not being ignored, they mods just decided that they'd leave it to the mods that participate in this thread.

You mean Complete Monster thread?

Not Shaoken, but I'm pretty sure that's what he meant. Just give it a bit of time, and if they don't cut them after a while (at least 3 days I'd say) just post a short reminder.

To 32Footsteps: Maybe adding a few details about this asshole (the next most qualified Celestial Dragon IMO). Because shooting a kid on a tiny boat with a pirate flag with a bazooka because he inadvertantly cut in front of your own ship is Just Not Cool (Word of God confirmed the kid, Sabo, was killed outright). Otherwise it looks fine to me.

To EJO 1: Just for the record, I didn't personally say you were a troll (and I doubt it), but consider the following:

1- Poe's Law being what it is, don't be surprised if people think you're one.

2- Your last post just completely validated my previous point about your Single-Issue Wonk tendency. You obviously don't know when to quit (I'd love to get a bunch of guys like you for poker night - it'd probably end with you in nothing but boxer shorts and me with a big fat bank deposit) and at this point even relatively easygoing, tolerant guys like me probably think you're approaching the status of Perfect Example Of The Law of Fan Jackassery.

Yeah, I'm harsh, but you need to read it from someone who can exposit his point rationally without just bitching at you since you'd more than likely just disregard everything in that case. Consider it "tough love".

edited 12th May '12 6:52:08 AM by Paireon

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me.

To be honest, I'm not far enough into the series to know Caribou; I just mostly copied what was on the page (and didn't look too hard, because it was one of the few that wasn't abusing bullet points). I'll revise that tomorrow.

As for the Celestial Dragons, I will go back and look for those names. Though I'm not sure if the one that killed Sabo counts... it was a senseless, tragic death, but it's not totally heinous in the context of the story.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Another villain I found on Film is:

• A rare animal example is arguably the man-eaters lions from The Ghost And The Darkness. They kill nearly 140 railway workers, vicious biting 'em to death. "Not pretty bad, they're predator animals after all." you would think. Then it's revealed they totally go beyond normal lions' standards - their favorite way to eat their victims is to lick their skin off and drink their blood. Besides, lions don't attack humans unless provoked. These two not only does it, but they only kill for pure fun. It's implied they're not even lions, but demons in lion forms.
  • Those lions? They were real.

1. No Real Life Examples

2. They are still animals. Yeah, they are vicious but still only animals.

So, do we remove them?

edited 13th May '12 8:22:22 AM by MONEYMONEY

Animals don't usually kill "just for fun", so while the subbullet can go (and the Wikipedia page has an entire section about possible Freudian Excuses anyway), I would not be so sure about the upper one.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

This came up before in this thread - when a character is based on someone real, you can only cite their fictional version. For example, you can cite Idi Amin in The Last King of Scotland, but you have to be sure that you only mention how he is in that movie. That's the rule.

That said, I think I have to side with a complete cut on this example. There's no indication that the animals in question are somehow uplifted. They're just wild lions, and they don't have the level of intelligence required to be legitimately evil. If we let them in, we'll have to let in Jaws, velociraptors, and every other predator that went after humans in movies based on instinct. Heck, we might as well start to include rock slides and avalanches, since they possess just as much capacity for good and evil as a pair of lions do.

Strictly speaking, I know that the Complete Monster listing doesn't automatically disqualify the lions in this instance. But it just as similarly doesn't disqualify an avalanche, either. I think we should add in something about being able to differentiate good versus evil - it really feels like the capacity to judge good versus evil is a requirement for actually being evil.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Seconded. Like a certain RPG said, a dog that bites you is a bad dog, but not an evil one because it doesn't understand what it's doing is wrong. The same goes for the lions. Cut it without mercy.

Now onto Walter Finch from Insomnia;

• Walter Finch in Christopher Nolan's remake of Insomnia. The first few times he talks to Detective Dormer, he insists that the death of his teenaged female protege was an accident, comparable to Dormer's shooting of his partner through an impenetrable fog. Then he tells Dormer how it happened: he made a pass at her and she laughed at him. So he hit her. And hit her. And hit her again. Dormer then reveals that the autopsy showed that it took Finch about 10 minutes to beat her to death. And then he calmly wiped the body down, washed her hair, clipped her nails, and dumped her body at the local garbage dump. But it was all just a horrible accident, so he doesn't need to feel any guilt about it.

Well, he is bad, but the problem is that his only evil act is OFF-screen. We don't see it. Later, he seems pretty much very Affably Evil, and he claims to regret what he has done. Is it enough to remove him from the list?

edited 13th May '12 4:59:49 PM by MONEYMONEY

It's tougher than the last example, but I'd ultimately say cut it. If it takes place entirely off-camera, if he honestly shows regret, and if he doesn't do anything else worse then he doesn't fit the Complete part of the trope.

I will discuss one more villain (I will go through all the page to find more ambiguous examples)

• Owen Davian in the third Mission Impossible. His actions (selling weapons to terrorists, killing agents by bombs implanted in their heads, brutally beating up the defenceless hero in front of his equally defenseless wife) are bad enough, but still things to be expected from a villain in a spy movie. It's his complete lack of any redeeming qualities and incapability of showing any other emotion than annoyance, anger, and a really creepy combination of Dull Surprise and sadistic glee that really makes him qualify for the title. Hearing him count to ten while holding Ethan's wife hostage execution-style is pants-shitting scary.

—>"What I did to your friend was....fun. It was fun."

So, he is evil but his actions are to be expected for a villain in a spy movie. Just because he is doing For the Evulz is not enough to make him a CM, is it? I've seen the film and did not fell so much repulsed by his evil.

On the Transformers Complete monster Page, Shockwave is back on it. Perhaps his case should be reviewed again, though personally, I believe that Shockwave does not match up to the sheer cruelty and depravity that this trope requires (that's all versions of him). Anyone elses' thoughts?

I actually think he might be a good example. I haven't seen the film but remember reading some reviews that focused on how he had a qualities that in our terms would probably fit the Complete Monster trope- that he was not only a cruel and remorseless murderer but also one that was totally indifferent about it, which is a quality that most spy film big bads don't have- basically the kind of person who would literally kill you as soon as they would look at you.

Since you've seen it, you're probably a better judge though.

edited 13th May '12 9:22:57 PM by Jordan

Hodor

For the example in Insomnia, I have to agree with Shaoken. That example is edging awfully close... but for both showing regret and for off-screen (unless they actually showed the flashback, rather than having the character retell it), I have to say that character doesn't qualify. It also seems like there's some variety of fugue state going on - like the character would attempt to show remorse if he could come to terms with what he's done.

The proposed example in Mission Impossible 3... hrm... the way it's written, the character in question definitely hits points two and three. So we're left with the question as to whether his crimes reach the heinous standard. Now, maybe it's just me, but I'm fairly certain that cortex bombs, psychological torture of a spouse (particularly if, as it appears here, said spouse does not have any actionable intelligence), and similar acts strikes me as not being Standard Operating Procedure for enemy spies. I can see there being mitigating circumstances that would push him out, but he seems to fit to me.

The Shockwave example... had to dig around to even find it; it got a bit buried. This one fails under the "truly heinous by the story's standards" point. I thought we zapped it before; I recommend removing it and citing this thread in the edit reason. (Though looking at the page, I don't see it having been removed before; was it something that was discussed but didn't happen, or maybe it was before the current edit history?)

Finally, that One Piece page rewrite I've been promising, with suggested edits:

---

While many of the baddies from One Piece, like Kuro, Don Krieg, Arlong, Crocodile, Enel, Spandam and Blackbeard walk the range from insensitive jerks to all out line-crossing assholes, there are a few villains who believe that the above characters just weren't evil enough:

• Several of the Celestial Dragons are slave-owning arrogant bastards. When a slave tries to escape and blows up his collar, St. Charlia of the Celestial Dragons shoots him while complaining about how pathetic it was that he was whining about his family (who he just wanted to see again). Her brother, St. Charloss (introduced while riding on a slave), enraged that a doctor and a nurse carrying a wounded man would dare not to kneel in front of him, kicks the injured man off of the stretcher. He then decides to take the nurse as his wife. When her fiancee complains, he shoots him.
• Shiliew/Shiryu of the Rain, former Head Jailer of Impel Down counts. Completely Ax-Crazy, he murders dozens, if not hundreds of prisoners for fun, claiming them to be "just trash" and making the actual Head Jailer Magellan completely disgusted. When freed, he cuts down his former workmates multiple times with not regard for them and sides with Blackbeard. Also, he thinks of betraying Blackbeard if he does not succeed in stealing Whitebeard's power. It's pretty clear he has no empathy and loyalty for anyone but himself.
• Admiral Akainu, a wonderful example of a Knight Templar who crosses the barrier between Well-Intentioned Extremist and Complete Monster. He debuts while crossing the Moral Event Horizon: he orders his subordinates to blow up a ship of evacuees that the Marines had promised to spare. His justification was that he thought that if there were any survivors from Ohara that the world would be in grave danger, although there's no proof that survivors of Ohara actually present any danger. Later in life, he brutally murders anyone who tries to flee from the battle at Marineford. Then there's what he does to Coby. The kid is pretty much the Only Sane Man and calls out everyone for their violence. Akainu immediately tries to kill him - and they're theoretically on the same side. If not for Shanks... He moves the series into Darker and Edgier territory by causing the first major present-day story death. Let's put it this way: when Sengoku stepped down and Aokiji had to fight Akainu for the position, which Aokiji ultimately lost, he left the Marines rather than serve under him. The guy is that bad.
• Then you've got the regular nobles from Goa Kingdom (the island where Luffy hails from). They burn down a trash area of their kingdom, The Gray Terminal, knowing full well people were living there, all so they can impress the visiting Celestial Dragons with a "beautiful kingdom". What makes this really damning? 1) The whole trash area was created from their own waste they dumped into the grounds daily. and 2) They excuse themselves for this action claiming it was the trash people's fault for not being born nobles.
• Caribou is a complete psychopath who gleefully doles out horrible deaths to anyone who even slightly annoys him, and prays to God to forgive them while he's doing it, and all of his reactions have not-so-subtle overtones of being a rapist.
• There is also Hody Jones, a Fishman who takes Arlong's Fantastic Racism and turns it Up To Eleven. He's more brutal, more racist, more treacherous, and more cruel, but the kicker? He pulls a reversal on Arlong's sole Pet the Dog moment; whereas Arlong was mortified when Luffy used a Fishman as a human shield, Hodi actually uses a Fishman as a human shield against an attack. One of Arlong's former crew, Hatchi, stated that, while Arlong was a bastard through and through, he'd never hurt a Fishman no matter what. Hody, on the other hand, is known for killing any who talk to or know them. In fact, when he tries to take over Fishman Island, part of his plan is to execute all who had signed Queen Otohime's petition. This means that he's planning to murder thousands of its residents. He already killed Otohime and framed the human he hired to burn the petitions in the first place as part of this plan... and got cocky enough to brag about it in front of all Fishman Island.
• And now we have a new one. Caesar Clown is a psychopathic Mad Scientist who conducts horrific experiments with chemical weapons on living subjects; when asked about a past failure of his that caused massive casualties, he callously denies that it was a failure, instead insisting that it was a testament to his weapons-creating prowess. The fact that he's involved in the events on Punk Hazard is enough to seriously alarm Smoker.

Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.

Actually, in the Insomnia, they do show the flashback.

In case of Owen, I thought he counts but wanted to make extra-sure.

I found few other characters that I want to discuss; this time on Disney

• John Silver, the main antagonist of Treasure Planet is one of the most sympathetic villains in the Disney Animated Canon, but that film still has a pretty clean-cut Complete Monster in Scroop, the "spider psycho" secondary villain. He gleefully murders Mr. Arrow for virtually no reason at all and then makes his death look like it was Jim's fault and it's pretty clear that Silver is the only thing stopping him from also murdering everyone else. He also mocks Silver for the affection he for Jim in an implied attempt to get the rest of the crew to overthrow him.

He is certainly the most evil character in the film, but this is not enough to make him a CM. Besides, I really like Scroop, and isn't a CM a villain that you are supposed to hate only??

• Even Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs, the very first Disney Animated Canon movie ever, arguably has a Complete Monster in the form of Queen Grimhilde. This sinister queen/sorceress can't stand the idea of someone being more beautiful than herself and she is cruel enough to take drastic steps to ensure this will never happen. It is shown when she orders to kill her own stepdaughter and then having her heart put in a box, in order to have the proof of her death. When she figures out The Huntsman failed her she, ironically, transforms herself from a beautiful, yet evil woman into an old, grotesque and frightening one to cover her indentity, and plans to poison Snow White with the Poison Apple. Although she reads that the victim of the poison can be revived by 'Love's First Kiss', she convinces herself (with fiendish glee) that the Dwarfs will bury Snow White alive. Once she gains the Hag form, she becomes more excited and sadistic, starting to feel the enjoyment in what she is doing and becoming more sinister. It is no longer a necessity to kill Snow White, it is a pleasure.
  • The queen's excitement at the idea of Snow White being buried alive was her most disturbing and horrifying moment. Can you imagine what it'd be like to be buried alive? How sick would you have to be to enjoy the thought of someone suffering that?

So, while she seems pretty horrible, she never succeeds in killing Snow White, she is also likeable (like Scroop), and besides, we agreed that Maleficent doesn't count, and the Queen doesn't seem much different from Maleficent. If the latter doesn't count, why would the former??

edited 14th May '12 5:07:43 PM by MONEYMONEY

Going on what Money Money is saying: When was Maleficent not considered a complete monster? I guess I missed that change (as of this post she's still listed as one on the Sleeping Beauty YMMV). I always saw Maleficent as the Incarnation of Evil, and she was Awesome because of it. The only way she doesn't count would be if you considered the Kingdom Hearts Cannon, where she has an Enemy Mine, and isn't as evil as Xenahort(SIC). Scroop and the Queen are complete monsters, because they fit the disney curriculum (we can't have Johan Liebert and Le Gato in a children's film now can we?). Also, Scroop scared me as a child, but now, I appreciate Scroop for his menace, and intimidation. I still like Scroop, but I like him because he's so evil. There's a trope for that.