During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
sounds legit
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
edited 6th Feb '15 7:25:07 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Do you read ASOIAF, ACW? If you do, why did you not bring it up when we rewrote the Mountain a while ago? If you don't, then why are you asking about a character whose writeup we settled some time ago?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Actually, it was brought up before. By you, in fact ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
. So, um, yeah 
How's this:
He also kills Vargo Hoat, mutilating him by chopping pieces off and then, amused by his victim's slobbering, forces him to eat himself.
A rewrite for His Fair Assassin (grammar issues):
- Count Alain D'Albret murdered every single one of his wives, and also planned to brutally rape Anne and then force the marriage once he captured her at Nantes, and murdered his own newborn granddaughter within minutes of her birth, right in front of his own daughter, while she begged and screamed for someone to stop him. When his wife Alise did try to interfere, he struck her down so viciously that she ended up dying from the blow to the head. Then he snapped the child's neck, dropped the baby on the floor like trash, left both corpses lying there, and calmly walked out of the room. He taunts Sybella about making her his next wife once he finds out that she's not truly his daughter. Wen Julian interferes, Alain tells Julian that Julian would be forgiven for everything if he produced heirs with Death's blood in their veins — in other words, if he raped Sybella repeatedly into pregnancy.
edited 6th Feb '15 8:27:41 AM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
And we settled it. That doesn't mean 'bring it up again.' People didn't agree, it wasn't added, that's fine.
If it's a finished settled entry, do everyone in this thread a favor and please, please, PLEASE stop bogging us down with constant asides.
edited 6th Feb '15 8:35:08 AM by Lightysnake
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Easy to add, but so be it then. Now, onto new entries, the new Killzone and General Wade?
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
Shaiapouf I'm not sure about. honestly, I find him more the Bellatrix Lestrange of the whole series as he projects his image of what the King should be in his eyes, rather than what the King actually is. He even admits that the King deviating from that would destroy his loyalty.
Bellatrix loves Voldemort because he gives her a chance to murder people. There's nothing selfless or self-sacrificing in it. 'Pouf, by contrast, is an Education Mama writ large - imagine a mother who sincerely believes that the best and healthiest way for her son to live is by getting a good degree from a good university, and can't understand why he's messing around with some amusing pet animal instead, and then replace 'son' with 'God-Emperor', 'a good degree from a good university' with 'world domination', and 'amusing pet animal' with 'human girl he's slowly falling in love with'.
You'll have to point me to the specific section where he says he'll no longer be loyal to King Meruem if he goes down the wrong path, because I don't remember it from the anime. He certainly takes Meruem's growing relationship with Komugi, the human girl in question, very badly, but views it as something he has to save his king from at any cost to himself. He states that he's willing to die if it'll prevent Meruem from remembering Komugi after getting nuked and revived gives him (Meruem) amnesia, and the only reason why Meruem picks up on the plot is because he can feel Pouf's guilt through their telepathic link (which is a big red flag on the 'no remorse' side of things). Also, it's worth noting one of the reasons why he's got such a giant mad-on for world domination at that moment - he's deeply cheesed off at humanity for its agents almost killing his king with a nuclear bomb in an apparent act of treachery.
What's precedent ever done for us?
I disagree with some of it, but I'm not gonna nitpick. I agree he should prolly be cut
I would like to open discussion on Bandos from Runescape. It seems like the only reason he's not already on the list are because of a few rather flimsy redeeming qualities that I'm going to debunk, but first I'll do a proper post explaining exactly why he qualifies.
Who is Bandos and what did he do?
From the MMO Runescape, Bandos is the omnicidal god of war and patron deity of the more brutish races such as goblins, ogres, trolls, and more. He instills in his followers the concepts of War is Glorious and Might Makes Right for the sole purpose of sending them out to wage endless war on the universe for his own glory and amusement. He began life as rhinocerous-like mortal in a primitive tribe and eventually usurps control of his people after his murdering his father, previously wounded in battle. He led his people to war against all the other tribes on his homeworld using cruel but effective tactics that often sacrificed his own people. He murders a child in cold blood after the child offered the location of their god in exchange for his life. He uses this knowledge to find and murder the god, Jododu Otoku, in order to ascend to divinity himself despite knowing the god was preventing meteors from wiping out all life on Bandos' world. After gleefully murdering a god and dooming his world, the newly ascended Bandos travels to goblin homeworld of Yu'biusk and introduces its primitive to technology so that they can be his personal soldeirs, worshippers, and playthings. He destroys the identities of the once peaceful races of Yu'biusk and marches them to world of Gielinor, the setting of Runescape. After the God Wars begin, Bandos sends his armies to fight for the mere sake of bloodshed and regularly allies with other Gods against their enemies only to betray and slaughter them when they've already won. During this time, he forcefully interbred many of his followers to create even more fanatical brutes to serve as his troops. When all the Gods are eventually driven away by Guthix, god of balance, a furious Bandos tries to attack him for taking away his followers and toys. Enraged by his loss, Bandos engineers the remaining tribes of Yu'biusk to wage war of extermination on one another until Yu'biusk is lifeless rock all to satisfy his bruised ego. In the Cave Goblin quest series, he chooses Zanik, a goblin from the tribe that rebelled against him, to serve as his "Chosen Commander" and lead his armies to war once again in a sense of dramatic irony. He serves as the villain of the quest line but is defeated once again, only to return in the 6th age after Guthix dies. Returning for the sole purpose of killing gods and committing genocide, Bandos creates a massive doomsday weapon to draw out his enemies. This eventually results in his permanent demise, but his horrific teachings are so ingrained in his followers that they continue to wage eternal war in him name.
Heinous by the standards of the story?
Bandos is reviled by all the other gods for his bloodthirsty ways and are shocked by his willingness to destroy everything as a monument to his own glory. All mortals rightly fear him, save for his fanatical brainwashed followers. To give an example of his heinousness, the only complete monster listed for Runescape, Sigmund, is a xenophobe and wants to murder innocent goblins because his ideas of goblins are exactly what Bandos intended them to be.
Any Freudian Excuse or redeeming qualities?
Bandos has no excuse for his behavior since he has been like that since his childhood and had no traumatic event to warp his world view. As for redeeming qualities, Bandos considers those who defeat him to be worthy opponents and values battlefield honor, but both of these can be debunked easily. Guthix defeats Bandos but he still tries to attack him with the threat of losing his servants which means worthy opponents don't really mean anything to him. As for valuing battlefield honor, his constant betrayal of his allies during the God Wars and using his troops as meaningless pawns rather easily shreads that quality to pieces. Compared to other gods who have caused great destruction out of last minute desperation, such as Zamorak, or shown to regret it immensely, such as Saradomin, Bandos regrets none of the things that he has done.
Sorry the post is so long, but Bandos did a lot of bad stuff, many things I had to cut out for the sake of time, but I want everyone to get a feel for just how much of a monster he is.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I would consider it were it not for the fact that most of his followers idolize Bandos rather than serve him out of fear.
When he was slain, most of his followers wanted to become the next BHWG...so...
Having said that, I was thinking of proposing Lucien. I'm well-aware that being a Hero Killer isn't the same as being a CM...but there are other things he did too...
For one thing, he treated his own daughter as a failed experiment and would often threaten her with her death, and he refused to aid his cousin Zemouregal during the Eighteenth Ritual when he begged him for help.
None of the Mahjarrat were sad to see him gone, so...
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
So, shall we give Shaiapouf the chop, or is additional input from additional people needed?
What's precedent ever done for us?
I see your point as meaning Bandos was such a master manipulator and oppressor that his senselessly bloodthirsty dogma is irreparably ingrained into the minds of his formerly peaceful followers. I'd go so far as to call it Stockholm Syndrome on a species wide scale.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I'd be comfortable voting yes on Bandos except he practically claps you on the back for beating his Avatar.
The problem with that is that Bandos is playing the role of the corrupter and the evil mentor. I don't see how it can be called redeeming when he wants to mold the player into someone who murders the weak just because they can.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
According to a goblin history book, the goblins chose to serve Bandos out of their own free will...so...
I reiterate my previous point, Bandos is a Manipulative Bastard extraordinaire. He introduced technology to tribes of hunter-gatherers and uplifted them to be his soldiers and tricked them into solving all their problems with violence even when they wanted peace. Here's one of his quotes from an in-game text:
"I know that there are so-called wise ones' in your cities who say that to go on using the new weapons would be the end to all life in Yu'biusk. They are cowards who wish to corrupt you with their ways. If anyone preaches against war, put them to the sword, then take that sword and slay the enemies of your tribe!"
edited 6th Feb '15 8:27:10 PM by LoreDeluxe
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
There is precedent for a Complete Monster whose underlings completely and genuinely adore him. The question is whether that goes in the other direction
The thing is, he went out of his way to make his followers dim witted enough to not disobey him. Those that did either got purged by his loyal followers (look at the above quote) or earned his eternally enmity like the cave goblins (who have a 5 part quest line devoted to their attempts at surviving his wrath).
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Hmm... so having recently watched Chuggaaconroy's Xenoblade LP, I'm debating on whether or not Dickson counts, after the reveal he does do some pretty awful things.
Let's try an effortpost on him, shall we?
Who is he?
Dickson starts off as a seemingly helpful mentor to the main protagonist (think Kristoph Gavin) who adopted Shulk as his son and rescued him. However this is all thrown out the window when not only did he save Shulk for pragmatic reasons, but later on in the story he is revealed to be Zanza's disciple. Dickson of the Trinity.
What does he do?
At first it seems that while he is a bit rough and jerkish, he's a decent guy, he did fight the Mechon (the robotic creatures created by the previous antagonist, Egil) alongside Dunban to save Bionis at Sword Valley. He even helps the party out a few times. However, near the end of the game, it is revealed that he not only didn't care at all about the people of Bionis (including Shulk), helping them only for his master Zanza to absorb every living soul on the Bionis, but he had adopted Shulk to use as a vessel for the spirit of the Monado, Zanza (who is already on the page) and he shoots Shulk in the back of the head, killing him and releasing Zanza. Shulk does get better but it's still startling to have an antagonist actually succeed in killing the hero. He also nearly killed Egil when the latter had a Heel–Face Turn. All of the petting the dog he did? That was all a farce just so he could keep his true identity a secret. He then sends an army of Telethia he created from the High Entia, by transforming them into Telethia (including Mellia's brother, Kallian) after the people of the Bionis with the hopes of murdering them all so Zanza can have enough energy to destroy the world. He also almost kills the party with a massive Telethia. He nearly succeeds in what he does, but he didn't count on Shulk being revived by Alvis. And it's shown that Dickson had free will and was never under Zanza's control or ordered to do any of this. It's shown that he's perfectly okay with Zanza destroying the world and isn't Made of Evil or anything. And this is just what we see on screen in the first few minutes after the reveal. Imagine what he does offscreen... The Telethia made from the High Entia are Brainwashed and Crazy and have no free will. And he constantly taunts the party kicking them while they're down, saying they'll never save Shulk.
Does he have a Freudian Excuse or other sympathetic qualities?
Nope. All the Pet the Dog moments he had were all pragmatic and only served to hide his identity so he could bring back Zanza. In addition, he's willing to destroy both Bionis and Mechonis just so his master can recreate a new world.
Closing thoughts.
I think he's done enough to be considered, not sure if he's as bad as his master though. Though if that was what it took to be a Complete Monster in Xenoblade, we'd have to cut Metal Face/Mumkhar too.
And did we talk about the Shroob Princesses? Yes, yes, I know the Shroob race is Always Chaotic Evil, but the two Princess Shroobs order everything the Shroobs do, and have free will, not being a mindless alien minion like their subjects, and have even been shown not to care about their subjects, killing them off when they become useless. They almost destroyed the Mushroom Kingdom, so that should make them pass the heinous standard.
edited 7th Feb '15 3:58:01 PM by Klavice
@ Deluxe: If you can provide me with concrete evidence Bandos wasn't being sincere when he congratulated you for defeating him, I'll be happy to include him.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Tortall Universe is done, and will be submitted Monday morning, along with the following:
- Wolf Creek: Origin: In this prequel to the films, Jerry "The Fiddler" is one of four serial killers that Mick Taylor investigates while attempting to reclaim his knife. Jerry is an obese pedophile who rapes and kills children. Jerry lives in an abandoned mine that he has booby-trapped to kill intruders (we see the skeleton of one of his adult victims). When Mick enters Jerry's home, he sees Jerry raping a little girl, and finds trophies and corpses of three of his past victims, and also sees Jerry kill a dog. After Mick murders a touring couple, Jerry and the other killers decide to kill Mick out of revenge for allowing the bodies to be discovered, which brought police into the area and made it more likely for the killings of the other killers to be discovered. When the killers attack Mick’s home, Jerry tries to rape Mick's girlfriend Rose (who Mick had tied up to use as rape bait to lure the killers into a trap). Just before Mick kills Jerry, he tells Mick that he should have killed the two truckers who discovered the couples bodies, stating "You never let anyone go."
- Daniel "Brick" Brickwell, who appears in season three, is a ruthless gang leader, nortorious for his unnatural strength and shrugging off getting shot. His preferred method of murder is allowing his victim to shoot him, and when he survives, he'd beat them to death; he is not afraid to inflict this on his henchmen. In Oliver Queen's absence, Brickwell holds the evidence against other criminals to get them to work for him, and later abducts the city council, killing one of them when Team Arrow attempts to rescue them. He bargins with the mayor to remove the police presence from the Glades neighborhood, and uses his gang to constantly terrorize its residents. When Team Arrow gets the residents to fight back, he simply sics his gang on them, taking part in the fighting himself. It's revealed thaat he killed the wife of Malcom Merlyn; when confronted, he states he's been killing for years and when he finally remembers, he taunts Merlyn about it.
- Aura Battler Dunbine: Luza Luft plots against her own husband (who, despite being the Big Bad, comes across as more sympathetic than her) to have the power all to herself and her lover Bishott (to whom it is doubtful she has any loyalty). She cares only about power, and will do absolutely anything to get what she wants. Not only does she manipulate the mech fights to cause several deaths, but she abuses and eventually murders her own daughter.
- Cowboy Bebop: The appropriately-named Vicious is Spike Spiegel's Arch-Enemy. Formerly Spike's friend and partner in the Red Dragon Syndicate, the Ax-Crazy Vicious is defined by his bloodlust, ambition, Lack of Empathy, and penchant for betraying anyone remotely close to him. He murdered his and Spike's mentor, Mao Yenrai, because Mao signed a peace treaty with a rival syndicate, then desecrated Mao's body to lure Spike out of hiding. In the past, during the Titan War, he spied on his own side then framed Gren, a fellow soldier who was fiercely loyal to him, for his crime. When he and Gren meet years later for a drug deal, Vicious tries to kill him with a suitcase bomb just because. After one of his men dies by Taking the Bullet for Vicious, Vicious is appalled by the man's dedication and self-sacrifice, saying there is nothing in life worth believing in. In the finale it's revealed that, prior to the series, Vicious responded to the revelation that his lover, Julia, was cheating on him with Spike, by trying to force her to choose between killing Spike herself or both of them dying. After murdering his superiors and usurping control of the Red Dragon Syndicate, he keeps the former hits ordered on Spike and Julia going, leading to Julia's death, and Spike's possible death in a Mutual Kill with Vicious.
Is consensus to cut Pouf?
We were discussing it here
, but there was never a writeup for any of the Live-Action Fist of the North Star baddies.
edited 7th Feb '15 12:33:01 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
@Hamburgertime: I'm going to defend my position by quoting an in-game conversation between Bandos and the player:
Bandos: "You know me. You destroyed my avatar with Zanik: prevented me from reclaiming my Dorgeshu'un tribe."
Player: "I defeated you before, and I could do it again."
Bandos: "Well, I see you still have your spine! Forget your goblin friends, cowering in their caves. You belong in battle!"
Honestly, Bandos may very well have been sincere when congratulating the player but their interactions scream similarities with Luke Skywalker and Palpatine's relationship. One tries to goad the other into committing terrible acts and becoming like them by speaking approvingly. My point is that any positive aspect of Bandos' respect for the player defeating him is entirely undermined by the negative reasons for doing so.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
I do see the Palpatine/ Skywalker subtext in Bandos and the player. Giving a tentative ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I was thinking the same thing too
I'll cut Pouf if there's consensus. As for Chaos;Head, I have NO idea if the CM is for the Visual Novel or for the Anime (or both?).
edited 7th Feb '15 12:30:35 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts