During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Cao Cao.
Need to think on Grady. A man who's entire revenge gambit is predicated on a false assumption is a bit much. I'll reread the EP later.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 8th 2021 at 5:36:01 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Goku Black
Grady
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
For what it's worth. That had actually seemed to have happened from his perspective. Their was zero evidence that anything else has occurred. So I don't think Its too bad.
Yeah exactly, he was wrong but from all the evidence that looked like the only possible explanation. Their were no other suspects, everyone else loved Daniel. The only person who hurt him was Ted (and he knew Ted secretly had a vicious temper and beat him cause Daniel confided it in him). Likewise Grady also knew that Ted hated him as he'd made it clear multiple times before hand.
To Grady it all made perfect sense and its easy to see why. As such I also don't really count it as a blow against him.
Edited by MGD107 on Apr 8th 2021 at 3:08:43 AM
Lies and Violence!
Grady.
A Practical Guide to Evil again. In case anyone forgot, it's set in a fantasy world where tropes and story elements are laws of the world that can be manipulated, set up as game/test between the forces of Above (Good) and Below (Evil). For instance, one Hero attempts to win a fight against a Villain by invoking Redemption Equals Death, playing to her sympathetic side in order to get her to turn good and, due to the narrative going on, subsequently die. Or, a Villain saying "Nothing can stop me now!" is essentially the same as suicide.
Black-and-White Morality is an objective reality here. Individuals, species and nations can be clearly and unapologetically Evil and Good. People can gain superhuman powers and a degree of in-universe Plot Armor by embodying certain archetypes, which leads to gaining a Name. The majority of Names have a definitive association with either Good or Evil, a la the Dread Empire of Praes almost always having a Dread Emperor and a Black Knight.
The major factions are the Dead King, a millennia old undead sorcerer considered the champion of Below; the Wandering Bard, an agent of Above who's less well known but just as old, and whose mastery of stories allows her to orchestrate everything from minor character interactions to full on wars; the Evil Dread Empire of Praes, led by Dread Empress Malicia and her Black Knight; the normally Good-aligned Kingdom of Callow, which has been annexed by Praes a few years ago but recently come under the control of our wonderful protagonist Catherine Foundling; the League of Free Cities, with our good old friend Kairos; and the Good-aligned and nominally allied nations of the Dominion and Procer, who launch a Crusade against Praes but get stuck on the roadblock that is Callow.
The candidate
Tariq Isbili is a descendent of the first Grey Pilgrim, who abandoned his home and royal name in the Dominion to give aid during a plague when his mother would have had his family hiding in their castle. He returns when his sister is assassinated and his beloved nephew takes the throne, years later tearfully suffocating him in his sleep so he would not start a war with Procer in order to avenge her death (the guy who ordered it Tariq had already punished, he was going to kill him but upon seeing his own family just made him step down from his throne).
He comes into the Name of the Hero known as the Grey Pilgrim, gaining the backing of the Angel Choir of Mercy, and eventually becomes one of the oldest and most experienced Heroes in the land - generally regarded as an unofficial leader and The Mentor to younger Heroes. Together with the Saint of Swords he snuffed out almost every Villain in the west, killing threats before they get too big and ensuring the greater good no matter how many horrible acts he has to commit. During this time he also came into contact with the Wandering Bard; he at first assumed her to be a Villain and tried to have Mercy smite her, but she was spared (she can actually influence them). Then, a Villain she saved exposed an even worse Villain. The Pilgrim eventually comes to believe that while she's forced to work for Below she's ultimately still trying to do good, and accepts her as a valued friend. Exactly as she intended.
The Pilgrim joins the Crusade to Callow and meets with Cat, picking out Cat from where she's disguised herself as a mere soldier during a truce talk. There's a bit of hypocrisy and Good Cannot Comprehend Evil, or at least Cat and Black's pragmatism, but the two still engage in civil conversation and discussion of terms. No sacking of cities or torture on either side, the Heroes can't use Angels and Callow can't use Demons, and no killing anyone surrendering. He's pretty adamant that Cat as a Villain can't rule, and that he'll regretfully try his damndest to kill her, but he expresses sorrow that Callow has been left under Praesi rule for so long.
He advises the Procer princes sent to lead the Crusade, managing to gain their trust by acting as the reasonable figure stopping the Saint from killing them, though still genuinely trying to foster friendship and personal growth between the less dickish ones. The Pilgrim and the Saint of Swords prove to be the biggest problems on the battlefield — the Saint's brute force approach is so strong that she can cut up reality, including Cat's Winter power; the Pilgrim resurrects a Hero that Cat gets a fair kill on, cautions the others on her tactics moments before she gets to actually unleash any of them, interferes with her magical allies' spells, and closes the portal they use to drop a lake on the Crusade. One of the Procerans offers a boon in thanks for his invaluable assistance, but he's cool and doesn't collect. He shows regret for sending the younger Heroes to be brutalized by Cat (as well as the damaging psychological effect the resurrection he used had on one), and mentally forgives her for those she did kill.
During another truce talk with Cat the Pilgrim tries to invoke various narrative tropes, hoping she acts accordingly so that fate can be molded into a story he can easily win in. This includes the above-mentioned Redemption Equals Death thing. He ultimately volunteers himself as a political hostage, but quickly breaches the truce terms and leaves when he sees an opportunity to do greater good. He captures her mentor the Black Knight, infecting a town with a disease that kills all of Black's forces except for the knight himself. He slaughters all of the town's inhabitants so the disease doesn't spread. He keeps Black alive against Procer's wishes, and attempts to understand the evil point of view. Black, ever a bastard, rips him a new one, and points out that his actions in keeping Evil contained for years may have, narratively, lead to the Dead King taking up arms. Cat thinks this is stupid, and in this case it probably is, but it clearly has an affect on him.
When they meet up under truce again Cat provokes the Saint into attacking her, making the Pilgrim narratively look like the aggressor. He's subsequently forced to give something up as a repercussion - Black's soul, removed so his body could be slain for Procer while the soul could be used as leverage on Cat.
...Of course, this was part of a larger plan, as the Pilgrim is arranging a pattern of three - the Villain wins the first two encounters but loses the third. Getting Black's soul was the first of her victories, and the Pilgrim hopes to make her win again (or at least come under a draw) on the battlefield. ...She sees through it and surrenders, the Pilgrim annoyed that the morally ambiguous actions he took to ensure his preferred outcome were for naught but judging that accepting her surrender would be a better outcome.
He, Cat, the Saint, Kairos, and the Rogue Sorceror form a Five-Man Band to fight the Dead King, who has possessed Cat's friend Masego. The Saint of Swords is being a piece of shit, and so the Pilgrim tries to explain to Cat her shtick: she's faced down absolute horrors in the name of good, and he asks her to at least give the Saint the benefit of the doubt. When Cat asks if he'd do the same for a Villain, he's silent. He ultimately offers his claim to the Tattered Throne as the last of the "seven and one" crowns they need for Larat's thing in exchange for Cat not killing the Saint (who's also possibly capable of killing the Dead King), Cat agreeing as long as they don't kill Masego.
Long story short, they temporarily deal with the King but now need to crown someone as the ruler of the Twilight fae. Neither the Saint nor the Pilgrim want an Evil-aligned, but the Pilgrim agrees to let the Villain Archer be crowned for 10 years before abdicating. The Saint, an asshole, still can't agree to this and damages the crown so that whoever wears it will die. He helps Cat put down his friend when she won't back down and attempts to kill everyone else there, not helped by Kairos egging the situation on. When Karios mentions the Bard the Pilgrim stops Cat from killing him (as the Bard is a friend, so there must be some reason she'd work with this little shit), but curses him to only tell the truth. He then puts on the Twilight crown and kills himself... before Cat brings him back to life, the Choir of Mercy not standing in her way to do so as they mourn for the closest thing they could come to a friend. The Pilgrim gives his support for her to join Procer and the Dominion's alliance.
Cat also lets him into her plan to... basically regulate Named, long story short. The Pilgrim, while he has a few issues with this plan, otherwise agrees with its principles and gives his support. When their conversation turns to the Wandering Bard, the two argue: the Pilgrim, having known her for so long (and having had all his life to be manipulated by her) makes excuses, while Cat threatens war with Procer if the Bard fucks with her again. It's an empty threat, but it gets the point across, and the Pilgrim doesn't pursue it much further. When the Bard, years later, is truly exposed as an enemy he accepts it with resigned but otherwise good grace. He still believes she's trying to do good and makes excuses, but he fully admits that he only does so to try and reconcile the woman he thought she was with what she actually is. Nevertheless, he sees Cat's dream something worth fighting the Bard on, and reaffirms his support to her.
From there on, he mostly serves as a trusted and powerful ally. While he certainly has his reservations about some of Cat's plans, he otherwise goes along with them. During the war on the Dead King he goes around the countryside helping where he can, from healing workers at a brothel to stopping one of the King's plots to seed a plague that would break their armies. When the Darkest Hour comes up, the King's armies utterly wrecking theirs, the Pilgrim sacrifices himself by calling down a star. A large majority of Cat's collection of armies and almost the entirety of the Dead King's army is destroyed (and apparently all of the Pilgrim's relatives in the Dominion died, not sure if he knew that would happen), but a loss on both sides is seen as better than the Dead King winning, and those that stayed to keep the King's forces back knew what was going to happen, so... no victory, but time bought.
Also, since the Pilgrim used the power of the Heavens the Dead King is now allowed to use the power of his Hell. They get a one-year wait before he can release that, though, so good enough!
Magnificence and Bastardness
Finally, the second part bears discussion! While the Pilgrim is a Hero, he's perfectly willing to do amoral things for the greater good - killing a town with a plague in order to capture the Black Knight. He's not a Knight Templar, though. He completely understands what he's doing is bad. He isn't exactly apologetic about it, but he feels legitimate sadness and grief for what he needs to do.
The magnificence has a few problems, as in the beginning he somewhat holds the Conflict Ball. Cat doesn't want war but the Pilgrim won't help her end it. A few reasons why:
- He doesn't want make an alliance with Cat as it would break the Tenth Crusade and dethrone Cordelia, the ruler of Procer, creating even more chaos.
- He doesn't want a second Dead King, and Cat's been hitting a lot of the story beats for that. A nobody who quickly rises up the ranks of the Dread Empire, striking out on her own and taking back her homeland with cult-like support from the people? Bullying an Angel Choir into resurrecting her, getting a god to give her control over Winter, becoming high priest of two more gods while gaining an army of demigod Drow? Regular use of necromancy? Admittedly, the Pilgrim has his own concerns about whether he's stopping her or pushing her down a darker path, but I think he can be forgiven with all that evidence.
- He was the greatest Hero of his time... years ago. Now he's an old relic of a fading era, and the times are changing without him. Villains? Loving and caring for each other? Unheard of! This, admittedly, he recognizes after his resurrection, and he strives to make amends for it. He also realizes that the "Age of Order" Cat is building will begin with Evil in the lead, but if it's the kind of Lawful Evil that Cat is then he's perfectly fine with it.
I had my own doubts, but he's competent enough that I felt obligated to at least try proposing him. I feel his problems are overshadowed by the care he has for friends and enemies alike, the genuine sadness he feels for Villains who cannot be redeemed and people that must die for the greater good. That, and the fact that he gets his act together, spending the second half of his tenure in the story as a helpful ally that politely excuses himself from the room when Cat and friends engage in rank blasphemy.
Thought?
Goku Black
Grey Pilgrim
He sounds really interesting btw.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
The Unknown Unknown
No problem here with Pilgrim and Grady.
So, today is my birthday, so expect an EP or two later to celebrate. Ignore that I meant to do these for a while, shush, it still counts.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Grady and Pilgrim.
Happy Birthday, erazor.
Edited by Amanofmanyinterests on Apr 8th 2021 at 3:33:07 AM
"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
Happy Birthday erazor!
Here’s thinking outside the box. A candidate from a story within a story: David "Lardass" Hogan from Gordie Lachance’s story in Stand By Me. He worth it?
to Grady and Pilgrim.
Happy birthday erazor!
Goku Black
Happy B day erazor. ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
Happy birthday Erazor!
Rereading Grady giving a .
Still reading Grey Pilgrim.
Edit: Done reading, Grey Pilgrim.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 8th 2021 at 7:37:56 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Lies and Violence!
I apologize if my proposals are always really long, I'm not very confidant in my explanations and so try to make sure I convey every important aspect.
Yes to Cao Cao, K. Rool, Hank and Mike, Grady and the Grey Pilgrim.
Pilgrim & Grady
Hap B Day erazor
Oh shit hbd erazor!!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Alright my writeup:
A Scanner Darkly: Audrey and Mike are two cops who have tried to infiltrate New Path, a rehab company which is secretly flooding the drug Market Substance D. To this end they end up getting Bob Arctor hooked on Substance D. They do this by having Audrey pose as Hank, his boss, and Donna, his supplier. With Donna supplying him the drugs and Hank ordering him to spy on himself, they end up driving him further into addiction such that he'll be forced to go to a New Path rehab. While there, Mike as an orderly has him transferred to a farm. They later debate the moral and practical aspects of the plan with Mike thinking it'll be worth it for future generations and hoping that Arctor has enough function to take back some evidence of the production. His hope turns out to be well founded, Arctor takes a flower which is one of Substance D ingredients, planning to give it to his friends when he sees them on Thanksgiving.
A note even though it is in the Film namespace the movie is an animated movie. I think the namespace is from TV Tropes earlier times and it was never changed.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Kirby is shaped like a friend
Here's Cao Cao's write-up. I had a discussion on the Complete Monster thread about Sima Yi's write-up there and MagnificentBastard.Gundam should probably have an "Other Eras" section added where this would go:
- SD Gundam World Sangoku Soketsuden: Cao Cao Wing Gundam is the CEO of Blue Wing Corporation, believing himself to be the best person to use their power for the well-being of all. Waging war across the Wei Area, Cao Cao took control of the entire region by outsmarting and winning the favor of his opponents. When Sima Yi Destiny Gundam tries to hypnotize him, Cao Cao manages to resist and later uses his resources for his own gain, deciding the best way to save humanity is to turn all but a select few into BUGs so the world's dwindling Trinity supply will last longer. After his defeat, Cao Cao provides funding for the relief effort and entrusts Blue Wing to his subordinates before setting off on a journey alone in hopes of finding the right path, never giving up on the justice he believes in.
I hate spoilers
So you can work on the write-up as soon as you have sufficient s?
The Moron
Okay, since nobody seemed opposed to a Ben/Eloise entry for the So You Want To page, here it is. I promise this is the last thing I've got for that page for at least a while ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
- Benjamin Linus and Eloise Hawking from Lost: While both Ben and Eloise are great examples of this trope in their own right, it's their partnership in season 5 that deserves special mention. An MB partnership is incredibly difficult to pull off without one of them overshadowing the other; it's natural for one of the characters to "take the lead" and reduce the other to a pawn in their game, compromising the other MB's magnificence. Here, the fact that the two operate so differently allows both of them to stand out within their partnership. Ben operates in a very hands-on matter, directly involving himself in his pawns' lives so that he can manipulate them to do what he wants them to, and he is not afraid to get his hands dirty if he must. Eloise, on the other hand, is a much subtler player, doing her work behind the scenes and only getting directly involved when she absolutely must - and even then, her manipulations are much more subtle than Ben's, only focusing on one person at a time rather than whole groups. As a result, instead of one of them clearly being smarter than the other, they both play to their strengths to reach the same goal, and when they achieve their objective they truly both walk away with a win instead of only one of them.
Any thoughts?
Lost caused a huge splash on the internet with fans upset about the ending, writing for character near the end, etc. so all power to your entry there Star!
All good j, I’ll just make a mental note to put it in the animated section of the films page!
All good 43. Star already created a Western Animation redirect and even changed it on the drafts page. Thank you Star!
Edit: I'm good on that for the SoYouWantTo.Write A Magnificent Bastard page.
Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 8th 2021 at 9:11:39 AM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Is everything potholed btw? I'll try and power through editing and requesting the swap (including shit I forgot last week) around midnight EST.
Work
Quick Change is a Bill Murray movie about a man who pulls off a magnificent bank robbery while dressed as a clown, only to experience cotunelss complications while trying to make it to the airport for his getaway.
Who is Grimm?
Grrimm is a city planner disgruntled by all the Villainous Gentrification in New York City, and has come to view the city as a Crapsack World. Grimm, his girlfriend Phyllis, and his childhood friend Loomis decide to rob a bank to fund a peaceful life far away from New York City.
Intelligent/thinks on his feet
Grimm poses as an Ax-Crazy nut job during the bank robbery. He falsely claims to have rigged boobytraps thought the bank which prevent a SWAT team from entering the building. Grimm then manipulates the hostages into selecting Phyllis and Loomis (are among them, in disguises) to be released first due to the hostages being afraid the two will agitate him, and he sends them out with lots of money tucked under their shirts and then goes out himself in disguise as a third hostage. He talks to the cops outside through a phone relay and plans on being at the airport and on a flight out of the country by the time the police figure out what's going on. Unfortunately for Grimm, the plan Off the Rails due to two factors. 1) Loomis honks the car horn by mistake while Grimm is talking to the cops on a payphone, causing them to realize the clown robber is outside and 2) they get lost on their way to the airport due to a roadsign having just been taken down, and when their forced to stop, their car is knocked down a hill by firemen responding to an emergency.
While saying Grimm remains calm and collected throughout this would be an overstatement, he does manage to adapt to things. He's booked seats on a second, later flight out of the country as a precaution. He's able to talk a suspicious homeowner out of calling the cops on them. When they accidentally walk into a mafia hideout he's able to bluff his way through by posing as a representative of their boss.
Charm/Morals
Grimm is a pretty kind boyfriend to Phyllis for the most part. He lets one bank customer get a receipt from the cashiers cage so he'll get his money back before escorting the hostages to the bank vault. He gives a wad of money to a passenger who is being heckled by a bus driver for trying to get onto a bus with a guitar slung across his back in a way so he can't fit through the door (he is just trying to get the guy to leave, but also tells the man it's unfair how he's being mistreated). He talks to a gun0wielding homeowner who went to Woodstock in a heart to heart way about if he likes having turned into Charles Bronson due to the city they live in and does set sincere even if he's trying to talk the guy into letting them go. He's disgusted by a yuppie bank hostage trying to bribe him to be released first. He doesn't harm anyone during the bank robbery. He doesn't mind being blackmailed by an airport employee who figures out he's a fugitive and thank the man for his help anyway. He has a sense of respect for the cop chasing them. He briefly helps subdue another criminal they run into at the airport.
Bastard
Will he does rob a bank just to finance moving away from New York. He can also snap at his accomplices at times, although he tends to regret it pretty quickly and is under a lot of stress.
Mitigating factors
He uses a Lazy Alias at the airport which cause the cop to have a Delayed Reaction and figure out that the clown was on that plane which just took off out of the country (although it's implied the cop won't be able to stop them in time) and he picked a rather stupid accomplice, even if the guy is his best friend.
Okay now as anyone who goes on the CM form will know myself and Mir are both fans of Midsomer Murders. And following our discussions leading to the discovery of several more CM's, naturally it led to us discussing the possibility of more MB candidates as well. As such we believe that we have found some.
Now to give a quick refresher Midsomer Murders is a popular ITV mystery series, set in the fictional district county of Midsomer. Whilst it has a reputation for having a stupidly high death count for such a rural area, the show is overall done in a style akin to Agartha Christie with the main focus being on intricate webs of relationships, secrets and rivalries hiding under the surface, and very little focus on especially violent murders or other serious crimes.
Now to start us off we visit Season 15’s “Murder of Innocence”, I give you Grady Felton.
Who Is He:
A native to the village of Binwell in Midsomer Parva, Grady did not have a good start in life. His father abandoned them when he was a child, and his mother ended up getting together with an abusive alcoholic called Ross, who regularly beat him and even locked him in the old powerhouse all night. Grady likewise gained a reputation as a delinquent and a petty thug by seventeen.
However, Grady did have one friend Daniel Denning, the son of the rich estate owner Ted Denning. Whilst Daniels friends didn’t like Grady, Daniel himself was always friendly with him, the two having a common understanding as Ted also would sometimes beat his son. Secretly, despite her being two years younger than them both, Grady also developed a relationship with Daniel’s younger sister Deridre.
However, one evening Grady returned home to discover Daniel lying dead on his kitchen floor having been bludgeoned to death with a shotgun. Convinced that Ted must have accidentally killed Daniel and was now trying to frame him, a panicking Grady and buried both the body and the gun. However, the manhunt for the missing Daniel found both, forensics managed to link Grady to the body and he was thus arrested for his murder.
Still convinced he was being framed, enraged when no one would believe him, Grady vowed his revenge drawing up a list of everyone involved in his arrest with him promising he would one day kill them all. Sergeant Jones, who at the time had just been a PC involved in the search and the arrest, also ended up on the list.
Whilst still in prison Grady continued to protest his innocence costing him a chance at Parole three times. Eventually quite by chance he ended up sharing a cell with Keith Mulory, who somewhat resembled him. Following a chance encounter where the two were mistaken for each other Grady stuck upon an idea to enable his revenge. Promising him all the money for selling his family’s cottage (his mother and Ross dying years earlier in a car accident) if he went along with it, Grady convinced Keith to impersonate him.
Following Grady coaching Keith so he could impersonate him, when Keith got out a year earlier he went through the steps so he could to acquire Felton tell-tale markings (a on his cheek scar and a spider web tattoo on the side of his neck) as well as laser eye surgery. Likewise upon the fingerprint database being digitalised Grady sent Keith to impersonate him thus allowing him to start visiting Grady’s new parole officer with no one the wiser.
Getting out following having cosmetic surgery to get rid of his scar and tattoo Grady moved down to Midsomer Parva, got himself in shape then and got himself a job at the local fitness centre, using a fake identity he got from a professional forger he met in prison, reinventing himself as the charming Scottish Fitness trainer Gareth Dunbar, who coincidentally ended up holding a class for and got to know Inspector John Barnaby’s wife Sarah.
Waiting eighteen months to build up the identity and ensure everything was ready Grady also stole several doses of morphine from the Binwell estate knowing no one would notice in time.
Finally ready he gave Keith instructions to arrive in Binwell to sell the cottage. Knowing the entire village would turn out on his arrival and ensuring every step of Keith’s journey from London would be documented, at the exact same time he arrived in Binwell Grady himself snuck up on his former defence barrister Giles Harrison who was returning from a party, and injected him in the neck with a fatal dose of morphine just as he was opening his front door.
Dragging him inside, Grady set up the body so it would look like he simply died of a heart attack and escaped, leaving no sign he was ever there. Thus seemingly giving him a perfect alibi for the murder (which they only found out was a murder due a suspicious Jones signing off on a post mortem when the Coroner thought it was natural causes).
However, problems emerged as Keith was furious to discover that selling Grady’s cottage was next to impossible due to it being known a teenager was murdered there. Furious at this Keith threatened to simply do up to cottage and stay there unless Grady could get him the money.
Not able to allow that, that night Grady broke into the Binwell estate and stole one of the superficially set aside cans of petrol for the generator. Pouring it through the letterbox whilst Keith slept, Grady set the building alight. Then disposed of the can nearby, so it would look like one of them tried to murder him in retaliation for Daniel.
Keith survived due to the fire brigade getting their in time, but was left in a coma. However, this suited Grady perfectly, as it meant he now had an even better alibi.
Thus he broke into the home of the prosecuting barrister Caroline Garrett whilst she was out and tempered with her gas pipe, letting the gas leak out through the house. Thus when Caroline returned home and turned the hob, the spark ignited the gas and she was instantly killed in the explosion. With it initially seeming she was the victim of a tragic leak.
Meanwhile Grady continued his fitness classes, even briefly acting as the trainer for Inspector John Barnaby (who Sarah sighed up against his will as the annual police fitness assessment was rapidly approaching). The next night Grady snuck up on Daniel’s old friend Kyle Gideon, who now worked on the Binwell estate and whose mother Mandy had been in a long relationship with Ted, out into the forest and killed him by also injecting him with morphine, as Kyle had testified against Grady at his trial.
Grady meanwhile carries on his Gareth persona even giving Sarah a life home when her car breaks down. However, he discovers that Keith has actually regained consciousness. Knowing that he can’t allow him to squeal, disguising himself as a doctor Grady sneaks into the hospital and disables the officer guarding him by injecting him with Morphine, this time only enough to knock him out cold.
He then kills Keith with a fatal dose and escapes, almost running down Ben Jones in the carpark when he sees him arriving.
Now going after Ted himself, Grady sneaks onto the estate the next night and sabotages the generator luring Ted out (the generator is itself a bit faulty so he doesn’t see anything unusual about having to check on it), there he overpowers him and ties him to it.
The police realising the Keith wasn’t Grady and realising the real one would be after Ted next, Jones arrives to try to assist but Grady confronts him still in his Gareth persona. Whilst Jones tries to make sense of what’s going on, he knocks him out cold and drags him in, trying him up right next to Ted.
Covering the floor in petrol, Grady plans to burn them both to death framing it to look like they died in an accident involving the faulty electrics. Deciding its perfect that place of so much of his childhood suffering should be the execution point of another such abuser.
However, having realised what really happen Inspector Barnaby arrives and thus Grady threatens to connect the cables, killing them all in one swoop. Inspector Barnaby tries to talk him down, but Grady refuses accusing Ted of killing Daniel.
Only at that point Deirdre to arrive. Shocked to see her again after all these years, Grady tells her to get out so she doesn’t get hurt. Only for Inspector Barnaby to reveal the truth, it was Deidre who killed Daniel all those years ago not Ted. After the bonfire Daniel had gone round to see Grady, only to find his little sister waiting for them there. Daniel had threatened to tell their father and in moment of blind rage Deirdre had hit Daniel round the head with his gun accidentally killing him.
Realising he had never been framed, Grady was devastated realising everything he had done was for nothing, as such he surrendered and turned himself over to police.
Is He Intelligent? Charming? Magnificent?
Oh yeah definitely. Midsomer Murders is not a show known for criminal masterminds. Most killers are presented as desperate and panicking, having no real plans and often just reacting to increasingly desperate circumstances and end up utterly breaking down when it all falls apart. Whilst revenge seekers aren’t exactly rare, one’s with actual deep complex plans like Grady are few and far in between.
As for his personality, as a teenager Grady comes across as an impulsive, aggressive angry young man who quickly descends into ranting and threats. By contrast as an adult Grady is single minded, cunning and resourceful. The guy goes to quite impressive lengths to pull of his revenge scheme and manages to get quite far before anyone even realises there is a murderer on the loose.
He likewise puts on a masterful performance in Gareth persona, to the point that even Keith who knew him beforehand is utterly fooled. From his interactions it seems the guy does honestly enjoy his job and care for his trainees, with him actually being a pretty encouraging and caring coach towards them.
Likewise unlike the majority of killers Grady never has a breakdown, staying in control right up until the end. He's understandably devastated to discover the truth, but beyond pointing out that Deirdre "stole my life" he overall takes it surprisingly well.
Now he does admittedly engage in a bit of villainous gloating towards the end. However, I’m not willing to hold it too much against him as in his mind this is culmination of years of planning and the moment he confronts the man who he believed ruined his life and killed the one person who ever actually cared about him. Likewise it doesn’t actually lead to him being defeated.
Is He A Bastard? To Much?
Oh absolutely Grady succeeds in murdering four people and it’s made clear that if he hadn’t found out the truth, he would have carried on until everyone on his revenge list was dead.
However, it’s also made clear that Grady does honestly believe all the people he’s going after are either corrupt and either in on the plot to frame him or failed him back. The only other person he goes after is Keith, and that’s simply when he runs out of options to keep his partner from spilling everything.
Likewise out of the many killers and the multiple horrible methods of death that have been utilised in the show over the year (generally stabbing, strangling or bludgeoning but there has also been some really nasty ones), overall overdosing someone on morphine so they pass out then their heart stops, is pretty benign.
Conclusion?
I have to give all the credit to Mir as I completely missed this one the first time I watched, but really I think Grady Felton is an easy keeper.
What do you think?
Edited by MGD107 on Apr 8th 2021 at 2:21:56 AM