During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Osborne.
Woagh
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Osbourne.
Well, I might as well bring it up now. Once Scraggle and I get the Elders Scrolls write ups done, we'll have 7. Do you want to create a page? There is precedent as there are likely more to come when we delve deeper in the franchise.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Janet, Tom, Dusk, Zelus and Osborne
Yeah, I prefer to once we hit seven so I've got the template to add more.
Now that the three candidates I proposed for Kamen Rider are up, I figured I'd proceed onto my next candidate.
What is the work?
Kamen Rider Drive, the fifteenth Heisei era installment of the Kamen Rider Series.
It follows Shinnosuke Tomari, a genius investigator for the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Department who, after an incident where his partner got injured during a mysterious event called the "Global Freeze", was demoted and reassigned to the Special Investigation Unit, a group that investigates strange happenings in the city. After discovering the existence of a series of killer robots called the "Roidmudes" who can assume human forms and copy human emotions, Shinnosuke is chosen to wield the Drive Driver and combat the threat of the Roidmudes, solving many mysterious cases involving them along the way.
Who is the villain?
Roidmude 001, the "Freeze" Roidmude, the leader of the Roidmude uprising. The Roidmudes are a series of 108 robots created by the scientist Dr. Tenjuro Banno that are capable of "evolving" to become more human by experiencing human emotions. Eventually, a Roidmude who experiences enough emotion is capable of assuming a unique "Advanced" form, granting them special powers.
12 years before the start of the series, the Roidmudes rose up and murdered their creator along with his lab partner, Krim Steinbelt. Afterwards, the Roidmudes set about infiltrating human society in preparation for their revolution. 001 infiltrated the Japanese government by assuming the human form of Japan's Secretary of Defense, Soichi Makage, and used his position to cover up any evidence of the Roidmudes' existence in preparation for their revolution against humanity.
In the present day, Freeze and the other Roidmude executives seek to achieve an event known as the "Promised Number", enabling them to create a paradise for themselves on Earth by trapping the planet in a permanent Global Freeze and eliminating all of humanity. To do this, they need four Roidmudes that have obtained not just Advanced but "Super Evolved" forms, which is how the plot of Drive kicks off.
What does he do?
After going undercover as Secretary of Defense Soichi Makage, 001 used his "Freeze" powers to alter the minds of everyone in the Japanese police force so they wouldn't be able process the word "Roidmude", hindering any investigations into their existence. However, 001 would encounter one police officer with a will so strong that he was able to resist 001's memory alteration abilities, Eisuke Tomari, the father of Shinnosuke Tomari.
Luckily for 001, he wouldn't end up having to kill Eisuke himself as Eisuke was murdered by his jealous partner Mitsuhide Nira while responding to a bank robbery. 001 immediately took advantage of this, using his powers to alter everyone's memories so they would believe that the bank robber murdered Eisuke. He then took the gun Nira had used and used it to blackmail him into being his informant within the police department, promising him favors in exchange for his loyalty.
However, Freeze's experience with Eisuke left him bewildered and curious if there were any others who shared his resistance to his memory wiping powers. Thus, he orchestrated a fake scare over a pandemic in order to seek out anyone else who was immune to his memory wipes, having them imprisoned in a secret facility where he could study them while using his powers to alter the minds of everyone close to them so they wouldn't grow suspicious.
Eventually, in 2014, the Roidmudes began their revolution in an event known as the Global Freeze, in which the Roidmudes froze time on a quarter of the planet. The Roidmude revolution was put down by a mysterious hero known as Kamen Rider Protodrive, who destroyed the bodies of most of the Roidmudes. The Roidmude cores survived however, enabling them to regenerate, and Protodrive himself was defeated by the Roidmude executive Heart. The three then discovered that Protodrive was a Roidmude much like themselves, a special Roidmude designated 000 and created by Krim as a contingency against the Roidmude uprising. Freeze, Heart and the Brain Roidmude thus decided to brainwash 000 into being their ally rather than eliminate him, wiping his memories and giving him a new identity as Chase, the "grim reaper" of the Roidmude executives tasked with enforcing their will and eliminating any dissenters against them.
For the next six months, the Roidmudes went underground again and began preparing for a second Global Freeze, keeping their existence a secret thanks all in part to Freeze covering them up. However, the mantle of Drive would later be taken up by Shinnosuke Tomari, who with the aid of the SIU began seeking to uncover the mystery of the Roidmudes, bringing us to the start of Drive.
Freeze spends the first part of the series acting as The Man Behind the Man to the other Roidmude executives (Heart, Brain and Medic), serving as shadow leader of their uprising while Heart effectively serves as the public leader. Eventually, about a third of the way through, Freeze intervenes to supply the Roidmudes with the "Neo-Viral Cores", devices he invented which make Roidmude evolution easier by enabling Roidmudes to fuse with humans and automatically assume a fusion Advanced form.
As the Special Investigation Unit comes closer and closer to unraveling the Roidmudes' conspiracy, Freeze assigns Nira to oversee them. Besides being Freeze's lackey, Nira also has a particular disdain for Shinnosuke and the SIU (carrying over from his grudge against Shinnosuke's father), which naturally leads to him obstructing their efforts to investigate the Roidmudes.
After the SIU discovers Freeze's secret identity within the police force, Freeze promptly puts his endgame into action. He starts by throwing Nira under the bus, leading him to go and help the SIU track down the facility where Freeze is keeping the people he kidnapped and unpersoned. Shinnosuke manages to defeat Freeze, only for it turn out everything that happened was part of a Batman Gambit by Freeze all along. By luring the Riders to him and being defeated by Shinnosuke, Freeze is able to use the humiliation he felt from his plans being thwarted and being defeated by Shinnosuke to achieve a Super Evolved form, becoming the first Roidmude to do so. In his new Super Evolved state, Freeze quickly curb stomps and kills Shinnosuke (gasp). Yes, Freeze manages to take out the lead Rider of the series.
Or at least mostly kill, because Shinnosuke is the star of the series after all. Thanks to his sentient transformation belt fusing with his heart, Shinnosuke manages to make it out only Only Mostly Dead and the rest of the SIU immediately sets about trying to revive him. Upon discovering this, Freeze sets out to finish Shinnosuke off, but though he comes close Shinnosuke comes back to life just in time and brings with him a new super form too. Freeze puts up a valiant fight, but is ultimately defeated by Drive in his new Type Tridoron state and destroyed.
Is he magnificent?
Very much so. A good chunk of the Roidmudes' successes are due to his manipulations behind the scenes and the Roidmudes wouldn't have gotten as far as they did without him. Even after he's gone, Freeze's actions still impact the series; Brain uses one of his Neo-Viral Cores to unlock his own Super Evolved state and Freeze's other research proves instrumental in the Roidmudes attaining the Promised Number (even if it ended up being hijacked by the Bigger Bad). While the Roidmudes' plans do unravel, it's only after his defeat that things start to fall apart and it's likely that if Freeze stuck around for longer, things would have played out much differently.
Freeze himself is shown to Affably Evil in person and very pragmatic. When he reveals himself to Shinnosuke he speaks highly of his father, and never goes beyond what's necessary for his plans to succeed. His end goal does include the elimination of humanity, but Freeze and the Roidmudes have a very good reason for why they're out to Kill All Humans - their creator, Banno, abused them and programmed them with negative emotions to spite Krim after he broke off their partnership, so the Roidmudes were effectively screwed from the start. Freeze himself also doesn't show any disdain towards humans, he's shown to respect Eisuke and is polite in his interactions with Shinnosuke and the SIU. He just wants to make the world an ideal place for his people and doesn't even want to rule it. In one scene he admits that he sees Heart as an ideal king and ruler of their race instead of himself.
As for good he is at manipulating, he manages to orchestrate a gambit involving his own defeat and pull it off successfully. Freeze dominates the board with his every move. He does get caught off guard later on, when Secondary Rider Go Shijima pretends to defect to his side in order to take back the tablet containing Banno's consciousness. However, doing so effectively proves as a discard-and-draw for Go, as in order to get close enough to take the tablet Go had to aid Freeze in his plans, and Go's defection is part of the reason Freeze is able to kill Shinnosuke the first time.
Is he a bastard? Too much?
Affably Evil though he may be, Freeze is still a Killer Robot planning to wipe out the human race, an end to which he brainwashed and kidnapped numerous people. He definitely qualifies, but he's firmly within Magnificent territory and when you compare him to who the true main villain ended up being, he looks like a downright saint.
Final Verdict
to Freeze. He fits the trope like a glove.
Yep there
to Mr. Freeze
Freeze
So I'm reading through Invincible and I'm wondering....
Should I effortpost Robot as a MB?
I haven't finished the comics yet but I am somewhat familiar with what he does in the end and how he goes about it seems to fit the mold for the MB trope. The character has also never been discussed before I think.
Now he did have a Scrappy entry on the YMMV page for Invincible at one point, which may be an issue. But after looking into the Reddit for Invincible as well as some Youtube comments, I can conclude that said entry was misplaced and that Robot does have enough of a fan following to avoid being labeled a scrappy. So I removed it.
Now, assuming that he's more polarizing than hated, it dosen't have really any bearing on this trope as we've gone over some polarizing candidates like Obito, Illidan Stormrage, General Shepard, Kreia, Kerrigan, and TNO!Thatcher as well.
Edited by xie323 on Feb 2nd 2021 at 7:48:18 AM
Also, since 43110 asked a while ago, I do have a third candidate from Gaim I'm considering proposing, but he's one I'm much less sure of, so I'd rather get all my other proposals from Kamen Rider out of the way before going onto him.
I'll leave you all to speculate who he is in the meantime.
Just imagine something here.
How is he invincible if you can see him?
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Go for it on Robot.
RIP Toriyama
Robot sounds like a potential, just make sure you finish up his appearances and arc before proposing and we'll be happy to hear it out!
'Yes' to out latest Elder Scrolls baddies, Dusk, Zelus, Osborne, and Freeze. Great work, guys!
Unfortunately 'No' to Tommy, between our talks and your very thorough EP, I'm inclined to agree with you J—too much is depicted as negative about his final role for me and how he just becomes part of the system he started out wanting to change
Now how's about a short, pretty solid Keeper from a cartoon I spent many a day watching during its prime...
What's the work?
Phineas and Ferb was the flagship hit on the Disney Channel for the late 2000s, early 2010s. A unique, genuinely funny cartoon beloved by many, it starred Phineas and Ferb, a stepbrother duo who use their creative genius to create wild machines, go on fantastical adventures, and solve their friends' problems all while the boys' older sister Candace tries to expose their naive troublemaking to their unaware parents, and the show's popularity eventually lead to a movie: Across the 2nd Dimension.
In the film, the main characters discover an entire parallel universe to their own, one where the Harmless Villain Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz is a tyrannical dictator, they themselves are resistance fighters, and the world is an action-packed dystopia. Working with their alternate counterparts, the boys managed to stop Doofenshmirtz, redeem him by reuniting him with long lost toy train, and save the world.
Now, I wanna talk what happened to the 2nd Dimension after the movie, as seen in the episode Tales From the Resistance...
Who is Charlene Doofenshmirtz-2? What makes her a candidate?
Charlene Doofenshmirtz is, in the mainline P&F universe, the unfettered, clinical ex-wife to Heinz Doofenshmirtz, having an agreeable but not particularly friendly relationship with her husband as he hilariously tries to pull off evil schemes while she remains blissfully unaware of his truly evil nature.
The 2nd Dimension's Charlene, on the other hand, is revealed to be a mastermind of her own, having faked a divorce with her husband so that they could keep their relationship fresh and she would avoid prison on the unlikely scenario Doof was ever beaten, all the time subtly backing up Doof's rule. Well, when such an unlikely day rolls around and Heinz is taken down and his empire dismantled, Charlene makes her move.
Orchestrating the kidnapping of all the animal spy agents of OWCA, Charlene transforms them all into cyborg slaves to do her bidding and stages an attack on the former leaders of the Resistance against the Doofenshmirtz empire, Candace and her brothers Phineas and Ferb...when Candace confronts an imprisoned Doofenshmirtz over the attack, he reveals it was likely Charlene, but that the only way to confront her in her secure hideout will be to use him to bypass her security.
Our heroes do just that, using Doof to sneak them into Charlene's evil lair, where a surprised Charlene...reveals it's not a surprise. She kidnapped the OWCA agents, orchestrated the attack, and left enough bread trail crumbs for the heroes to know it was her, knowing they would have to bring Doof right to her door without her having to lift a finger to break him out of prison. Now reunited with her husband, Charlene easily captures the heroes and even seemingly turns Ferb into a cyborg himself (though he's faking so as to free Candace and co. later)
Planning to restart their empire after a snappy showtune in which she reveals "All the Convoluted Reasons We Pretend to be Divorced", Charlene is informed by Doof that he doesn't want to be evil anymore, as his Freudian Excuse related to losing his childhood toy—Choo-Choo—has been rectified by the toy being returned to him. Charlene promptly and hilariously takes the train and flings it out the window, destroying Doof's Morality Pet and spiraling him right back into evil.
When several Resistance fighters show up to the lair, Charlene coolly grabs an arm cannon, destroys their method of escape, and orders them all captured while herself and Doof personally fight an escaped Candace...well, Charlene does, seeing as Doof cowardly runs and hides to Charlene's exasperation.
Putting up a surprisingly tough fight against the skilled Candace, Charlene is eventually taken down, and realizes that the Resistance have been able to use developed chips to reverse the cyborg tech on her slaves and free them. Simply smirking and pulling out a backup arm cannon after her first was destroyed, Charlene proclaims that she'll never surrender and instead go out in a blaze of glory, even as the weaselly Doof tries to surrender.
Luckily for the couple, at the last second their daughter Vanessa shows up with an escape car and our villains escape, humorously debating the merits of Vanessa's new boyfriend and designated escape driver as they flee from the Resistance and live to continue their schemes for another day.
Is Charlene magnificent?
Ye. For a cartoon with lots of comedy and many of its villains left with humiliating defeats or personality quirks, Charlene does surprisingly well. She's revealed to have had a secretive hand in Doof's empire, and she goes about totally outwitting the Resistance, facing down their overwhelming numbers with snark and impressive skills of her own, and greatly contrasting Doof himself with bravery, valour, and a collected nature.
Closest things to mistakes she makes are being fooled by Ferb's faked robotization (which isn't too hard to be fooled by tbh as the kid practically acts like an emotionless cyborg anyway lol), and when she's fighting Candace, she's taken off guard temporarily by an enemy breaking one of her nails, leading her to shout "Ah! My manicure!" But this is just plain funny and she follows it up by whipping out a backup arm cannon ready to face down the odds and fight to the death
Is she a bitch?
Def, she's an active part of an evil dictatorial regime and desires to restart it, turned about two dozen animal spy agents into cyborg slaves, and endangers the heroes plenty times. But it's a damn Disney cartoon with very little heavy emphasis put on even things like villains attempting murder of an entire planet lol so she's in no way, shape or form too bad.
Final Verdict?
Pretty simple but solid Keeper I'd say, another example of a good type of candidate from a comedy work.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 2nd 2021 at 8:22:24 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Snap, you beat me to it! Yes to Freeze, easily.
For reference, the other guy I'm planning to do for MB from Kamen Rider is Kougami from OOO, whose zaniness I think walks just the right amount of bastard at times to justify a post.
Yes to Helseth, too, and yes to Charlene. I'll have Nocturnal up soon and do my batch.
Edited by Scraggle on May 6th 2021 at 2:06:27 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Osborne, Freeze, and Charlene. Man I love that show. I can't believe I never thought of her.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
- The Ballad of Black Tom: Charles Thomas "Black Tom" Tester begins as a talented hustler who finds himself roped into the wicked schemes of white supremacist occultist Robert Suydam. First proving his cleverness by delivering an occult tome while plucking out a key page, Black Tom eventually embraces darkness as a result of his father's murder and assists Suydam in taking over New York tenements before revealing he had tricked Suydam to take over his schemes and murders him before forcing the Detective Malone to gaze into the abyss at the "Sleeping King," an eldritch abomination he plans to awaken to end the corrupt and racist world he despises, cutting away Malone's eyelids to remind him that blindness is no longer a choice.
Freeze and Charlene
Lies and Violence!
Osborne, Freeze, Charlene
Skulduggery Pleasant again. I've already mentioned that this is the one I see least likely to pass. Mainly, it's because of a great deal of pettiness and being the Iron Butt Monkey that he gradually drops throughout the series, but only really loses in his last appearance.
That said, he's an incredibly popular character, competent enough, and certainly my favorite, so I have to at least try. Without further ado, I present the Hitman Deluxe himself.
The candidate
Billy-Ray Sanguine is a Texas sorcerer with the ability to to burrow through anything. A former worshiper of the dark gods known as the Faceless Ones and the son of notorious assassin Dreylan Scarab, Sanguine had a crisis of faith and became a hitman. He makes his first appearance breaking Baron Vengeuous out of jail, supposedly only doing so after 80 years (sorcerers live long) because he heard the missing ingredient to the Baron's doomsday weapon had finally been discovered, but really because he was hired to by another sect of worshippers known as the Diablerie, the Baron none the wiser. Afterwards the conflict with the Baron, Sanguine serves as the enforcer for the Diablerie, eventually getting stabbed in the chest by Valkyrie and getting his powers damaged - he can still burrow, but it's incredibly painful, so he begins using it limitedly.
After a short story where he saves a bunch of hillbillies from a group of rich teenage psychopaths that have kidnapped them at a gas station in the middle of nowhere (not out of the goodness of his heart, more a need to feel in control of his life and a desire to not be defined by his job as a bad guy), Sanguine decides he wants revenge on the Sanctuaries and Valkyrie, deciding to form a Legion of Doom he dubs the Revengers' Club (go with it). Meeting up with and giving the Club's leadership to his recently released dad (who has name recognition that even the potential recruits that despise Sanguine will listen to), Sanguine gathers up a bunch of past villains: notably Dusk, Spring-Heeled Jack, and series resident Big Bad Wannabe and the Killer Supreme, Vaurien Scapegrace (who Sanguine quickly realizes is useless, kills, and then Scarab brings back as a zombie. Quick side-note, Vaurien and those he infects are still their old selves, but if the zombies he infects in turn try to taste human flesh, then they will become the normal shambling monstrosities you'd expect from zombies).
I won't go into detail about their scheme since it's mostly Scarab's, who I might cover later, but after it's foiled Valkyrie confronts Sanguine (who hasn't killed the hostage family of a guy named Guild's even after the plan goes up in smoke, only having needed them to blackmail Guild - there's a point in his favor), who tells her that he's giving up his vendetta. Dusk told him about her ancestry to the Faceless Ones, and while he won't tell Valkyrie about it Sanguine gleefully notes this means there's a lot of suffering already headed her way.
While he promises to leave her alone, he shows up in the next book - actually having been hired to help her, serving as the Token Evil Teammate. He's treated like shit, but actually saves the day thanks to a bit of quick thinking and pickpocketing skills. He also starts nursing an elementary school crush on Valkyrie's best friend Tanith, greatly disgusting her - especially when Tanith gets possessed by a Remnant (evil spirit) at the end of the book and hooks up with him. This isn't rape, Remnants are weird. We'll cover them with Tanith.
Since the Remnants view Valkyrie's Superpowered Evil Side Darquesse (go with it) as their Dark Messiah, Tanith and Sanguine spend the next few books helping Valkyrie and Skulduggery as the completely untrusted Token Evil Teammates, Sanguine initially not realizing Valkyrie and Darquesse are the same and assuming Tanith just wants to help/mess with her old friends, but gladly helping along (especially after Tanith gets his power restored).
His next most impressive outing is actually another Legion of Doom, the Maleficent Seven, which he and Tanith form to find and destroy the four God-Killers, the only things that could kill Darquesse. Again, the actual scheme is mostly Tanith's plan so I won't cover it (I shall mention the hilarious fact that Sanguine apparently dislikes the stereotype of sorcerers using wands, and kills one who does so as a point of honor), but essentially the two systematically betray every member of the group except Dusk, Tanith getting captured but giving the God-Killers to Sanguine with orders to destroy them.
She breaks out and meets back up with him... but he didn't destroy them. A part of their plan had been switching out the GK's for fakes, imbued with enough magic that no one could tell the difference. Sanguine commissioned a second set of fakes that he destroyed as "proof," keeping the actual GK's because A.) as much as he loves Tanith he can't get behind her whole "Darquesse will destroy the world" thing, and B.) he now has God-Killers. He's, and I quote, pretty goddamn unstoppable. He caps that book off by asking her to marry him, which she accepts.
By the final book, he and Tanith are working for Darquesse outright. Sanguine, the professional assassin, is utterly horrified by what she does on a daily basis.
Not an actual quote, but an accurate summary of their conversations:
- Sanguine: Did... did you kill him?
Darquesse: Of course not! I just rearranged his atoms!
Sanguine: ... Into a chair.
Darquesse: Okay, jeez, fine!
Snaps fingers, chair dissolves into a puff of smoke
Darquesse: There, I destroyed his atoms. Now he's dead.
Sanguine: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?!
He doesn't kill her himself because, as much as he wants to save the world, he also knows that Tanith will immediately try to kill him, and he wants to keep the weird warm and fuzzy feelings in his heart alive a little longer. He also tries to convince Tanith to turn against Darquesse, appealing to her slowly-being-repaired morality and pointing out that the reason she wants Darquesse to hurry up in destroying the world is because she doesn't want more time to doubt herself, bluntly telling her that he's only helping because he loves her and wants to have her back when she realizes she's wrong.
Sanguine decides to give the God-Killers to Skulduggery... but as soon as he goes back to his apartment to get them he's confronted by the detective, having already found where he stashed them accept for one. Sanguine quickly convinces Pleasant to not arrest him and keep him as a spy on Darquesse, keeping the last GK for himself.
After guilting Tanith actually works (though he's not around to see it), Darquesse removes the Remnant and Tanith loses the memories of the time when she was possessed (again, I swear this isn't rape, Remnants are weird, I'll explain later). While she's back to hating him Sanguine still helps her out, rescuing her and sending her to the Sanctuary.
When questioned by Darquesse Sanguine immediately admits he was the one who let Tanith out (having stayed behind knowing she would find him anyway, wanting to at least talk face to face and if it came to it see the killing blow coming), but also pledges loyalty to her as "the winning side." Darquesse promises to kill him last as a reward for said loyalty. Both are aware the other is lying their ass off, but neither make anything of it.
His death actually isn't by Darquesse's hand. Due to shenanigans I won't go into, Grand Mage Sorrows' zombie bodyguard and Tanith's Arch-Enemy the Black Cleaver turns on her. While everyone else is fighting Darquesse, she fights it, and when she's injured Sanguine arrives to protect her. He does well but is overconfident - he uses his tunneling power on the Cleaver, but that doesn't really work on something already dead. Assuming he won, he's unprepared for the Black Cleaver to slit his throat from behind. Tanith, starting to remember a bit, avenges him.
Last thing, I don't know what the hell is happening in this scene, but it's either a vision of Sanguine or his actual soul. Valkyrie is being chased through a psychedelic magic hallucination, ending up in a coffin, when Sanguine digs her out and tells her to keep coming. If it's his soul, nice of him to offer advice to the girl he hated long before, and if it was a hallucination it's a little heartwarming and telling to his impact on her that, when she starts having visions of deceased friends, he's the first that pops up.
That was a lot. Sorry. My next EP's will not be this long.
Magnificence
Again, his being a bastard isn't in question, but magnificence is... eh.
He's smart and resourceful. Almost every (important) plan that he comes up with personally ends up succeeding in some shape or form. While he's kind of a textbook sociopath at the start, he has something resembling an honor code (no wands, cannibal hillbillies give normal Texans like him a bad name and should die, etcetera). I previously mentioned that major villains in this series that last three or more books without horrifically dying, being arrested, or becoming Big Bad Wannabes are very rare. Sanguine lasts nine, is never arrested (unless you include times he's detained before immediately escaping within the span of a few chapters), and becomes smarter each book. His death isn't what I'd call dignified, but it's done seriously and is genuinely a sad moment for both the audience, Tanith, and even Valkyrie later.
He grows to genuinely love Tanith, risking everything for her on multiple occasions even when she's completely forgotten their time together.
He also sort of becomes friends with Valkyrie, but nothing much is made out of it besides the weird vision stuff.
Mitigating factors
Sanguine does have a few problems, though it can all be boiled down to him being the go-to Laughably Evil villain. Laughable as in "the butt of the joke" (Scapegrace has a Heel–Face Turn).
- Especially in his first two appearances, he was a Dirty Coward who would almost immediately betray his employer if you grabbed him from behind and held a knife to his throat. He'd beg for his life and whine and, when Valkyrie stabs him, utterly snaps before running (digging?) away. It's greatly toned down in later books, but he'll still be the first to start complaining when something starts going wrong.
- He's not very respected when he's the Token Evil Teammate. He'll be ignored, beat up, and thrown out as a distraction - basically all the comedic moments you'd expect when a villain is forced to work with the heroes, minus the Explosive Leash. He also has a petty rivalry with Tanith's other love interest, but by his final appearance seems to have accepted that they're her real friends whom she belongs with.
- He's very good at thinking on his feet. Because he's a shit planner. While many of his schemes work, a notable few explode in his face. For example, he has a place surrounded by zombies, who he'll sick on the inhabitants if they don't give him what he wants. Unfortunately, Scapegrace was the zombie he left in charge, with his infectees not respecting him enough to obey orders and eating flesh, becoming mindless corpses. Sanguine has to form an Enemy Mine in order to survive. Granted, the plans that explode in his face do work and are admittedly not frequent, in this situation Sanguine stealing what he was there for while the others are distracted. He always gets what he wants, he just ends up having to kill a few more things than previously expected.
Let me note that these traits are almost completely phased out after he starts working for Darquesse, excluding the kerfuffle with Skulduggery stealing his GK's, and even then he responds and recovers far better than he would have at the start of the story. Still, they're notable aspects of his character that are difficult, at least for me, to dissociate, especially since they're part of why he became so popular (staying popular through his usual charm and relationship with Tanith). I would argue that he has a last minute growing-into-the-role, just barely qualifying.
Going through his appearances:
- Playing With Fire: A decent introduction as the Hypercompetent Sidekick for the Big Bad, but he starts whining and complaining when he starts losing, and is pathetically forced to help the heroes at knifepoint in the climax.
- The Faceless Ones: Again, not great
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]")
. See the above problems but amplified.
- Dark Days: Actually pretty great . Aside from his usual smugness and the above zombie kerfuffle, from which he recovers pretty quickly, Sanguine's a charming schemer who helps his dad mastermind a pretty great revenge plan. He lets hostages go when he no longer needs them, and drops his whole vendetta when he realizes just letting Valkyrie live will be vengeance enough. He loses his more gratuitous Smug Snake traits after this, though still remains a cocky bastard.
- Mortal Coil: ... Eh, could go either way. He's mocked a lot, but is ultimately the key to the heroes winning, and gets away scot-free with a demon-ninja-girlfriend.
- Kingdom of the Wicked: Kind of just around to complain. I'll say
- The Maleficent Seven: Completely hits the mark . He's again charming, at the top of his game, and — while alternating between the voice of reason and the Leeroy Jenkins — ultimately fools everyone so he can get his hands on god-killing weapons.
- Armageddon Outta Here (short story collection): Again, completely hits the mark . He's honorable, savvy, and wins in every appearance.
- Last Stand of Dead Men: Nowhere near as bad as his first two appearances, but he's mostly just around to get dunked on.
- The Dying of the Light: Beautiful ending . He completely loses his petty and smug swagger (admittedly because the guy he really hated is already dead), keeps his dignity throughout the entire ordeal without devolving into pathetic cowardice or begging for his life, and does a pretty good job of convincing the Hair Trigger Tempered Darquesse to keep him around even when it's blatantly obvious she knows he's a traitor. He even retains his bastard qualities, not killing her when he has great opportunities to because he knows it might get him killed as well, yet by all rights probably could have gotten away with it all: Skulduggery and Valkyrie managed to stop Darquesse without risking his or Tanith's lives, Tanith (while no longer remembering their relationship) was no longer a nihilistic demon, and the only reason he lost to the Black Cleaver was because he didn't think it could survive someone literally burrowing through it. I think it's a dignified enough final appearance, devoid of his usual flaws and with enough evidence to signify actual last-minute character growth, to overcome his prior shortcomings.
While he's not the perfect chessmaster and isn't always composed, Sanguine is smart, skilled, and lucky enough to worm or kill his way through any problems that arise, only getting more competent as the series progresses, and ending as a genuine hero.
Edited by EmeraldEmperor on Jul 21st 2022 at 7:13:03 AM
Zelus, Janet, Black Tom, Dusk, Osborne, Freeze, Charlene, and Sanguine.
I need to do another effort post soon.
Osborne, Freeze, Charlene, Sanguine. The latter seems to overcome all his issues by endgame... much like the first character I'll be proposing, in fact.
Edited by HamburgerTime on Feb 2nd 2021 at 11:07:00 AM
The Unknown Unknown
Dusk, Osborne, Freeze, Charlene, and Sanguine.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You and me both. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
I'm so knee-deep in personal projects right now
The Moron
Alright, so after we briefly wondered what happened with The Jackal from Far Cry 2, I went to the game's wiki for both his page and the game's page to check him out. He sounds like a very easy keeper - he's an arms dealer with a habit of Playing Both Sides to keep the civil war going, but only does so because the winning faction would turn on the civilians should peace be achieved, and he works with the Player Character in the ending to kill both leaders and evacuate the citizens - but I haven't actually played the game, and trying to make heads or tails of the plot on that page confused the fuck out of me (there's a lot of player choice, so names and acronyms get tossed around willy-nilly and it's hard to keep it all straight). If no one else can take it, I suppose I could give it a shot, but I'd have to actually watch some walkthroughs first to make sure I could accurately represent him.
If someone whose already played the game wants to give it a shot, go for it.
Yea to both the above...
I, Lucifer's Lucifer is a no-go. Not on CM, not on MB.