Broken Base Cleanup

Cut. Not sustained or vicious enough.

Keep. The comedy was most certainly miss-or-hit.

Merge with the last item. That's a big reason why comedy in Persona 4 was divisive over the years. Like the Amagi Inn scene.

Not sure. I do hear this every now and then.

Also unsure. I hear grumbling about the resurrection more than the other part.

Cut everything I didn't quote.

For the Persona examples that got brought up, any word if they're actually base-breaking in the Japanese fandom?

Okay moving away f from Persona. Here's what's on the main ymmv page of Senran Kagura. Im not familair with this series as I only heard about it recently so some thoughts.

• Broken Base:
  • The first game's rather choppy framerate. Either it's bad or it's fine.
  • The game being localized also received this treatment from Beat 'em Up fans, as many saw it as a pointless fanservice game while some actually like the story and characters and either appreciate or ignore the fanservice.
  • The announcement of male player characters being added to Senran Kagura 2 (starting with Ikaruga's brother, which some feel has its own issues due to how he was presented in the anime), since some see it like ruining the franchise's appeal while others think than it could do wonders for the series reputation.
    • Murasame has all sorts of this. His being a Joke Character and the fact that he goes through the same Clothing Damage as the girls are also points of contention.
  • Senran Kagura 2 was hit with this within its first week of release (in Japan). The fans were split between those who say that its increased difficulty (compared to the first game) and new mechanics are terrible and wish it was more like Shinovi Versus, and those who welcome the changes as attempts to make the game less like it was solely made as a vehicle for fanservice.
  • Some fans aren't amused that the new characters from Shinovi Versus don't show up in SK2 at all.
  • The Estival Versus thirty minute OVA's art style, and the fact that it's being done by a completely different studio. Some think it's fine, while others disagree and say that the senrans' look like K-On! rip-offs. This also applies to some of the game's animated cutscenes.
  • Although a very minor one compared to the other entries, Estival Versus' release on PS Vita and PS4 made some PS3 owners a little disappointed.
  • Because of the series branching off into two different platforms, there's one side of the fandom that thinks the 3DS games are better, while another side thinks the PlayStation games are the best. Then there's another portion that prefers both games and feels the other two sides are being ridiculous.
  • The OVA bundled with EV, showing fully bare breasts, fractured the fanbase even more. Some are happy that the series has finally went past simple teasing while others think that very same tease was part of the franchise's charm.
  • How emphasized should Daidouji's abs be? Her new Estival Versus profile art gives her the most prominent set yet and the fandom simply cannot decide whether this is good or bad.
  • At first the addition of Legend Rare, LR, cards in New Wave G Burst have sparked some debates as to whether or not they're worth fighting for.
  • Should the New Wave characters be playable in the main games? Some think that they can be expanded upon, while others think they're better off in their home game.
  • Expert route in New Wave G Burst. On one hand, some argue that defeating an expert-class boss can help for those who want to jump higher in overall, and damage rankings; On the other hand, others think that expert route was introduced as an excuse to create a gap between F 2 P and P 2 W players, and make everyone pay for resources and more powerful cards.
  • Bon Appetit's difficulty scaling. Some find the harder difficulties reasonable enough and can be beaten with enough practice, while others think that the higher difficulties are rife with Fake Difficulty, often featuring button presses that don't match the rhythm, making the gameplay feel less "rhythmic" and more "frustratingly tedious".
  • The Dressing Room, aside from being where players can change the girls' outfits, also gives players the ability to mess around with the girls via the camera, as turning the character models still invokes Jiggle Physics.^note At the very least, most of the girls will call out players who do this too often. Simply put, it's usually seen as divisive by fans of the series.
  • New Wave itself for being a freemium mobile game.
  • Senran Kagura 2's story has become this for certain factions of the fandom.
  • Similar to SK 2, Estival Versus' story has also become this in certain parts of the fanbase.
  • The announcement of Peach Beach Splash as a canon entry in the franchise and Takaki's subsequent statement that the main line games were finished has irremediably split the fanbase into two camps: the camp that thinks the series has Jumped the Shark and those that think the series will improve in the future.
  • Whether it's the game's Dating-sim nature, Asuka being the only character so far, or the fact that it's another side game; It's safe to say that the announcement of Shinobi Refle also caused some divide amongst the fanbase.
  • The announcement of Peach Ball, however, only made things even more heated. Some have no issue with it whatsoever, while others resent it for not being a traditional SK hack and slash. It doesn't help that, with this and the above Refle game but no hack and slash titles, Switch players are left with nothing but side games.
  • Fans aren't very happy about Burst Re:Newal reusing assets from EV. As a matter of fact, they are just tired of the reused assets from EV in general and want a new one.
    • Recently, it was revealed that the rest of Gessen and New Hebijo will be added as free DLC for two weeks. Most fans are happy to get their favorites; the others are disappointed as it now comes off as Estival Versus with Burst slapped on the title.

edited 1st Apr '18 2:02:00 AM by miraculous

While I'm not that familiar with the fanbase, I've heard a little bit. Pretty much all of the examples there are minor things that don't quite qualify as a broken base.

• Framerate, minor issue.
• Localisation is about non-fans, so non-example.
• Male character I've heard flame wars about, so it might qualify.
• SK2, no idea.
• No SV characters might be an example, but isn't written as one.
• OVA is not extremely minor, but I'm not sure it's enough either. Not familiar with the issue.
• EV release is just about some people being disappointed.
• 3DS vs PS fans is a thing, and there's also a thing with the middle faction. They're at least two distinct and significant factions that do fight, and a third that thinks they're both stupid.
• Bare boobs is probably more or less the same factions as the OVA above, but I'm not entirely sure.
• Daidouji isn't popular enough to split the entire franchise fanbase. Her own fans, maybe, but more than that I can't say.
• Cards, no idea, and the example isn't written as a proper example.
• Expert route, haven't heard of.
• BA difficulty, haven't heard of. Heard it's hard if you're not good at those kinds of games, but that's it.
• Dressing room I've not heard much contention about.
• NW freemium, not enough context.
• SK2's story, haven't heard of.
• EV's story I've mostly just heard good to neutral comments about.
• PBS being canon I've heard some contention about, but not much other than from reactionaries.
• SR isn't popular enough in the franchise for the trope.
• PB doesn't have a sustained conflict; can't say more.
• BR:N likewise.

edited 1st Apr '18 8:32:56 AM by AnotherDuck

From Yu-Gi-Oh! VRAINS

The first two points were clearly written before the series premiered.

Many of these clearly don't have large groups that are FOR and AGAINST the issue. I'm not too familiar with Senran Kagura, but I strongly doubt there are many people who like choppy framerates or insist on having fewer playable characters.

edited 3rd Apr '18 9:42:37 AM by Zuxtron

From Metroid Prime: Federation Force under Broken Base:

• The main issue with the game is not that it's a bad game (indeed it's MUCH MUCH better than Other M). The issue is it was a case of right game, wrong time. Late 2016 was simply the worst time possible to release a spinoff game (the series having been neglected for 6 years with the last game being terrible and the last good game being 9 years earlier). If this game had come out after Samus Returns (and the announcement of Metroid Prime 4), it would've been much better received.

I'm certain this is too one-sided to be an example (the point is made elsewhere on the page). Any objections to removing?

No. Go ahead and delete it.

Is this the place to bring up Base Breaking Characters? Or somewhere else?

edited 7th Apr '18 7:32:23 PM by Ferot_Dreadnaught

This thread is for BBCs.

There is another thread for characters.

edited 7th Apr '18 7:35:15 PM by Zuxtron

This was recently added to Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW):

• Broken Base: Freedom Fighters or no Freedom Fighters? Some fans believe that the IDW team shouldn't consign the Freedom Fighters to the dustbin, seeing as they've been faithfully used in comics media for nearly 25 years. On the other hand, with this being a new start, many fans believe that there's no need for the Freedom Fighters, especially since Sonic Forces introduced The Resistance. The above details making it clear the Freedom Fighters aren't completely ruled out only complicates it further.

Since the comic just started this month according to the main page, it violates the sustained conflict requirement.

Question; does there still needs to be a 6 month waiting period before Broken Base can be added to a work? Because the following was added to The Last Jedi, despite it being only 4 months since the film was released.

• Broken Base: Luke's characterization in the film. A neat twist on a character that builds on his established personality, or an utter betrayal of everything the original trilogy built up on him? Since there have been arguments on This Very Wiki about this, that is all we can say.

Yes, the waiting period still applies.

Cut away Amigo.

TBH I kinda think the ymmv page of The Last Jedi should be locked as people bitch on there all the time and the base for this movie is shattered into a million pieces that there are no 2 substantial sides here. Hence letting people do Broken Base entries for this at all would be a bad idea.

edited 14th Apr '18 7:26:17 AM by miraculous

In fairness a mod-reviewed entry should probably be allowed to summarize what exactly the debates tend to be about rather than pretend it doesn't exist at all. Because it painfully clearly does.

The question is whether those will be long-standing disagreements that actually split the fanbase, or short-term arguments of the sort that tend to blow over quickly.

I'd be not at all surprised if the former turns out to be the case for at least some of them, but I also don't see the harm in giving it another couple months.

edited 14th Apr '18 3:43:11 PM by HighCrate

The problem with the Last Jedi Broken Base is that every single Broken Base issue fundamentally comes down to the more general issue of "Do you prefer The Force Awakens Reconstructionist take, Last Jedi's Deconstructionist take, or both?" Right now that's like asking people in people in 1981 if they prefer Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back, before the story had been capped off by Return of the Jedi.

^ I can see your point, I too said "wait for the sequel before passing judgment" when people began criticizing The Force Awakens. However the force awakens doesn't have a Partition with 103,028 signatures, and an average fan review of 48%.

• As for the Empire Strikes Back comparison, unfortunately this happened before the Star Wars Fandom had the chance to become the ungodly horde we have today. So it didn't really have a chance to "Break The Base." So we will don't know if this would have happened back then; not to even touch on how small the Internet was at the time, and how the internet may have impacted or amplified the flame backlash.
• What I will say though, is this. I have been a comic book fan for along time now, and this whole ordeal is giving me flashbacks to Spider Man's "Clone Saga." or Spider Man comics during the 80s. Writers not the same page, should never share the same product.

The Fate/Grand Order YMMV page has a lot in need of review.

• Broken Base:
  • While it's not a new issue for the Fate series, the fact that several of the new servants appear to be Gender Flip versions of famous historic or legendary male figures, rather than ones who were already female to begin with, is very divisive here, especially since said Gender Flip designs tend to be Stripperiffic. Some fans like it and find them interesting or sexy, while a lot of others dislike it and consider it to be Type-Moon and DW Pandering to the Base with gratuitous Fanservice that doesn't even work half the time.
  • That some of the series' most popular characters are limited time only (eq: Scathach, Gilgamesh, and Iskandar) for a week or two seems like a money grab to some, while others argue they're probably going to be added to the gacha later anyway and people should just be patient. It doesn't help though that they're 5* Servants, which are notoriously hard to get in the gacha (the chance of getting one SSR is as low as one percent).
  • Rerun events have become highly contentious with one side arguing that it's good for new players who missed them the first time and the opportunity to get more stuff and veterans of the game annoyed at lack of new content.
  • The power balancing. Some are fine with the inevitable artistic liberties, while others are less than happy on how many characters have vastly lower power levels than what they should. Regarding the latter point, some people invert it and forgive this balancing because Popularity Power boosts an otherwise-weak favorite of theirs to a powerful card. And some people invert that because making their favorite servant more powerful (and therefore a higher rarity) makes them harder to obtain.
  • A minor one, but several parts of the game's lore tend to rub some of the more diehard Type-Moon fans the wrong way with how it alters the lore of past works. Things like the fact Servants remember their past summoned experiences (when before it was the complete opposite), Chaldea having cryo vats (when Magi as a rule are usually averse to working with technology), and the fact Chaldea is a United Nations-sanctioned operation (despite the fact Magi are huge on secrecy) have some of screaming that Grand Order can't be canon in the slightest to the bigger part of the Fate universe. Others don't really care and think they're welcome additions to the lore, Nasu decides what's canon and what's not, and others just want to enjoy the story and play with their favorite Servants. The Camelot chapter seems to have lessened the issue somewhat with the reveal that Chaldea is only UN-sanctioned and in possession of powerful tech because its founder won a Holy Grail War and wished for Chaldea's prosperity - before that, it was a mere observatory, and its theories were dismissed as crazy by the Mage's Association.
  • Not long after it was first given, the possible romanization of Mash as "Matthew" has lead to fans debating on the actual Romanization to the name, since it was pointed out that Matthew was merely a google translation of the Japanese characters. Official merchandise has spelled her name as "Mash" which is more accepted than Matthew, but still largely ignored in favor of Mashu.
  • The typical debate over whether Altria is overused with all of her variations in the game has cropped up again and again, most recently with the Valentine's 2017 event, when it was revealed that Mysterious Heroine X Alter would be the main star of the event.
  • The Ship Tease several Servants have with the protagonist. One side hates this, citing the protagonist's blank slate personality, dislike of harem tendencies and the fact that several of them are already canonically paired up with other characters. (i.e. Nero & Tamamo for Hakuno or Ryougi Shiki and Mikiya). Others are fine with it since several Servants have been made purely to avoid ruining pre-existing pairings (i.e. Nero Bride, Void Shiki, and Ishtar). This flares up again after the release of Semiramis, and it was revealed that she 'denied' her romance with Amakusa Shirou in Fate Apocrypha. One camp hates the harem 'tendencies' ruining what was said to be the best chemistries in the show, while others are fine with it, allowing Semiramis to develop as her own character instead of being solely defined with her relations with Amakusa, someone who was not part of her original history, knowing how the Throne of Heroes worked, and ever since that show, Semiramis always reacted badly whenever someone piqued about her romantic tastes so she'd not blatantly admit it. This naturally led to fan works depicting Semiramis as a tsundere.
  • The China/Taiwan/US versions in general, at least for players who didn't join until they released. While understandable from a monetary and practical standpoint given how far ahead the JP version was and still is compared to the others in terms of content, being unable to transfer their endgame JP accounts and money already sunk in the JP version meant the majority of already-existing foreign players weren't going to bother with a non-Japanese version, or at the very least wouldn't bother paying and simply go free-to-play.
  • Let's just say a major portion of the players who were playing before October 2016 think that Rie Takahashi wasn't good enough of a replacement for Risa Taneda for the voice of Mash and just leave it at that...
  • A number of fans are split over the North American localizations of some of the names — particularly Type-Moon's "definitive" statement that Fate/stay night Saber's name is "Altria" rather than "Artoria", which had been previously used in Fate/Extella and other official materials.
  • A disscussion on whether a servant is too Stripperific or not can spark a big argument from both sides. Best demonstrated on the censorship of Matahari's and Boudica's outfit in Chinese server that spark a commotion even in fanbase outside of said server.
  • Semiramis was a highly anticipated Servant for a long time, but when she was released and seemed to fall for the protagonist by the time her bond was maxed, some fans were split between hating the idea and embracing it. People who hated the idea didn't like getting in the way of an established relationship between characters they generally liked^note After all, why else would they have rolled for them and possibly even spent real money to get them? while the other side argued that these technically aren't even the same people but rather copies who only have extremely vague memories of their other selves. Making things more complicated is that it's not out of character for either one to lie to the player or evade the question when asked how they feel about the other.
  • Similar to Semiramis, Anastasia also split the fandom. One side didn't like the idea of her opening up to the protagonist as the first Lostbelt had established a well-liked pairing between her and Kadoc, deeming the her contract with the protagonist ruins the ship akin to a Netorare. The other side however pointed out the concept of Alternate Self among Servants, the thing the first side ignores and insists that the playable Anastasia and Kadoc's one are not the same Anastasia, reinforced with how Anastasia is not Story-Locked, which means it is possible to summon the player's Anastasia to fight in the Lostbelt before even finishing it therefore proving to Kadoc that their Anastasia is different from his.

The last two for sure need to go. They sound like Base-Breaking Character.

I can help with that.

Oh, yes. Keep. Some like it, some don't, and others don't mind.

Doesn't cause much of a fuss, but I can see this being a weak keep. Although, that may apply to the infamously low gacha rate, which is a topic in and of itself.

Not enough sustained and vicious conflict. Cut.

Cut. Power balancing in a gacha game is arbitrary and depends on the whims of the developer. For example, Artoria is one of the weakest Sabers gameplay-wise.

If it's minor, it's got no business being listed. Besides, it says right there the issue has been lessened, so...

Not sure about this. For a time, this was pretty much like "Artoria vs. Altria," but it's kinda died down...

The typical "this character gets more exposure than others." If not an outright cut, it goes on Base-Breaking Character.

Not vicious enough. Cut.

This used to be an issue when the versions came out. It's largely faded away as people got over it. Maybe cut?

I wasn't around when this happened, so I can't comment. Even so, it only acknowledges one side and sounds more like They Changed It, Now It Sucks! and/or Internet Backdraft.

Combine this with the "Mashu vs. Mashu" thing, but even then, the whole argument reeks of They Changed It, Now It Sucks!.

Keep but combine it with the first item. It's part of an overarching "female image" issue.

Agree the ones on Semiramis and Anastasia sound like Base-Breaking Character.

edited 16th Apr '18 8:54:52 AM by erazor0707

The one about the game's lore is also explicitly stated to be minor, when a true Broken Base is about a major fanbase-splitting conflict, so it should be cut.

• Broken Base:
  • There were people who were furious that the protagonist would be voiced for the first time of the series. They believed voicing the PC makes it harder to immerse with their own character. On the other hand, there are those who loved the idea of a voiced protagonist, since that would make the PC less of an empty shell and more of a person. The Mass Effect inspired dialogue system has also been criticized by opponents for limiting the wide range of possible interaction through dialogue that normally is a staple of the series and accepted by supporters, some claiming that the system is Not So Different to the choices usually available to the character, the only difference being it's tone based (like Mass Effect) and fully voiced on the player end. Of course, Fallout 3 system was tone-based as well, just not visibly marked as such.
    Could be kept, but needs to be rewritten to not sound like it was written pre-release.
  • The new perk system has divided the fanbase between those are excited to see the new system and those who feel like it's an artificial attempt to make players put points in Dump Stats. Others are adopting a "Wait and see" approach.
    • Others criticize the new system for removing a significant section of roleplaying in that you no longer need to aim for different character builds. You easily end up with a character who is great at everything (or at least everything that matters) with no weaknesses. On the other hand, level requirements in basic perks like sneaking mean you can't make your character focus towards a specific skill set anyway, and you need to put your points in other abilities.
  The "for" side is very weak, and the presence of a "wait and see" position indicates that this was also added pre-release. I'd remove this one for not having two strong opposing sides.
  • Although the new power armor mechanic was generally well received, there are two points that divide the fans about it in particular:
    • Fusion cores. For some people, the fact that they run out (faster if you sprint), ruins the power armor because you not only can't abuse it, but you also need to be on the look out for more when they run out, even with the Nuclear Physicist perk.
    • The fact that you can acquire a full set of power armor plus a minigun with lots of ammo right in the 2nd mission also bothers some people. The ones who don't have a problem note that said minigun runs out of ammo very fast, and that the armor won't carry you through the whole game without upgrades.
  The first point is completely one-sided. The second point seems too minor to qualify. I'd cut this.
  • The game features many self-deprecating Take Thats towards contentious elements of Fallout 3. Those who hated them got a kick out of them. Those who didn't... well, check the Player Punch entry for details, but to make a long story short, hope you weren't too attached to some of those setting elements.
  Not sure about this one. Weak keep?
  • The Institute has been subject of quite a few flame wars, with one side viewing them as noble Science Hero types who just want to make the Wasteland a better place (ignoring the kidnapping and horrific experiments). Others consider them nothing more than slavers who should be treated no better than those from Paradise Falls. A major point of contention is whether Synths are actually sentient, with the former tending to believe the Institute when they say they're just very good at mimicking sentience.
  This might fit better under Alternate Character Interpretation.
  • The fact that Codsworth says your character's name if you're in VO and Vo only had sparked a minor debate between those who feel that, as a game made by an American company, it's to be expected, and those who think that, by now, when almost all dubs are done simultaneously, there is no reason for the English version to have something more than the others.
  Specifically stated to be minor, and I doubt many people enjoy that non-English versions lack a feature. Cut.
  • Survival mode. It's pretty evenly split down the middle whether or not fans like the new survival mode. Players who enjoy it will cite the increased realism and sense of urgency to gameplay, while detractors find the lack of fast travel and inability to manually save to be annoying artificial difficulty., and the disabling of the command line console on the PC version hamstrings self-extrication from bugs or doing modding diagnostics. Not helping at all is the vocal minority of survival mode fans who insist that it's the "correct" way to play, and that anyone who doesn't like it is just mad because it's too hard for them.
  This could be kept.
  • The fact that Waiting is now only possible while sitting down has irritated some fans, although others don't mind and find it more realistic, as it gives the option to sit on furniture a purpose beyond simple realism.
  Wow. This is the most minor issue I've ever seen someone try to pass off as Broken Base. Absolute cut.
  • The very nature of the game has come under fire; after the intricately interwoven story and setting of Fallout: New Vegas, the super-sandbox of the Commonwealth is a fairly noticeable Genre Shift. It's telling that the primary pastime for New Vegas players is endlessly discussing and deconstructing the companions and faction leaders, while Fallout 4 players are endlessly competing to build the most impressive settlement(s) out of whatever's available - when they're not creating even more IKEA Weaponry.
  I'm not seeing any huge, fandom-splitting conflict here. Leaning towards cut.
  • The bugginess of the game has caused a debate to spring up. Does Bethesda get a free pass? A lot of people (see Eight Point Eight above) point out that the sheer amount of bugs in the game, some of which can be game breaking, would have resulted in the game getting raked over the coals by reviewers and gamers. The argue that since it's a Bethesda game, they let it go. The other side argues that the bugs aren't that bad, and are simply a result of the scope of the game. Not helping matters are a minor third side that argue that the bugs are simply a part of the "Bethesda Experience."
  The side that enjoys bugs is specifically stated to be a minority. The other side here doesn't hold a strong opinion on the subject, they're just more tolerant of bugs.
  • Quality vs. Quantity has been a major talking point about the game, with many defenders pointing out that the game is a massive Wide-Open Sandbox with tons of things to do and explore, and can have hundreds, possibly thousands of hours of content. The other side argues that a vast majority of those hours will be spent on pointless side activities that do nothing to enrich the game and that all that breadth comes at the expense of depth, leaving the game feeling shallow and boring.
  This seems legit. Keep.

I've trimmed the FGO entries to this:

• Broken Base:
  • While it's not a new issue for the Fate series, the fact that several of the new servants appear to be Gender Flip versions of famous historic or legendary male figures, rather than ones who were already female to begin with, is very divisive here, especially since said Gender Flip designs tend to be Stripperiffic. Some fans like it and find them interesting or sexy, while a lot of others dislike it and consider it to be Type-Moon and DW Pandering to the Base with gratuitous Fanservice that doesn't even work half the time.
  • That some of the series' most popular characters are limited time only (eq: Scathach, Gilgamesh, and Iskandar) for a week or two seems like a money grab to some, while others argue they're probably going to be added to the gacha later anyway and people should just be patient. It doesn't help though that they're 5* Servants, which are notoriously hard to get in the gacha (the chance of getting one SSR is as low as one percent).

Found this on Marvel: A Fresh Start:

• Broken Base: For the initiative, Marvel unveiled a new slogan "Selling Comics, Making Memories". Some liked it, seeing it as simple and to the point, while others think it's too cheesy and just not a good slogan.