The Broken Base cleanup thread discusses about examples in Broken Base, but this talks about examples in YMMV pages of works containing Base-Breaking Character, (despite being an Example Sectionectomy, this can still be seen in the YMMV pages of works) where the details on what is suitable is also vague.
Here is the criteria for Base-Breaking Character:
- A long-term, sustained conflict: Characters that were simply hated and loved, then had their interest evaporated away (both positive and negative) after a few months doesn't count. Characters in upcoming works also don't count.
- A vicious conflict: Factions that have little problem co-existing and doesn't mind about what the other faction likes or dislikes about the character doesn't count. If it's not particularly vicious and heated, then it would be cut or be listed as a Downplayed Trope.
- Two (or more) vocal, almost equally sized factions: A tiny Vocal Minority that doesn't shut up their pet peeve, whilst being outnumbered by more reasonable fans don't count. Nor does a Silent Majority who doesn't make a big deal with the other side count. If one of the hating factions is significantly bigger than the other, it would be classified as The Scrappy or an Ensemble Dark Horse.
- Little to no Middle ground: Scenarios where most of the fandom doesn't care about the character, don't count.
Base-Breaking Character is when half of the fandom likes a character, yet another equally sized half dislikes it. Now that happens, but the problem is, some entries aren't really contentious (thus not resulting in flame wars when someone says they "liked that character"). Also, several entries are one-sided towards the negative or the positive side describing that only side in detail, but then wrapping up with a single line saying "But the other half likes that character". A correct way would be describing it like "a split in the Fandom on who likes it or not", with details on both sides why they're liked and disliked.
Here's an example from YMMV.Undertale:
- Alphys. A lot of players find her character gimmick of constant messages and attempts to help more annoying than funny, especially on repeat playthroughs. And even though she has sympathetic reasons, the reveal that she's been experimenting on sick monsters to create the Amalgamates and manipulating the player to feel better about herself doesn't help, especially since she never directly apologizes for the latter.
While it may have annoyed players due to these reasons above, there has been a considerable amount of fanarts and comics or her, and not only that, the like-dislike situation hasn't been so contentious (compared to Sans, whom he's popular, now he sucks.)
edited 21st Feb '18 1:46:31 PM by AppleGates
I think this thread is a good idea.
BaseBreakingCharacter.Game Of Thrones has many entries that are one sided like Arya and Podrick.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Super Mario Bros. has a few characters that are also listed on the Ensemble Darkhorse page. Specifically listed on both pages are: the Koopalings, Waluigi, Rosalina, and Pauline. Bowser's depiction is Paper Mario: Sticker Star is listed on the Base-Breaking page and The Scrappy page.
Since they are on Ensemble Dark Horse, cut those who are on Base Breaking Character, and cut it for Bowser on Sticker Star.
Also, I'm not sure if the entries on that subpage fit the "little to no middle ground criteria" or "vicious conflict criteria".
edited 21st Feb '18 1:30:29 PM by AppleGates
Siiiiiiiiiiiip
Rosalina is an extremely important character in her first appearance, so she's not really an Ensemble Dark Horse by any means. Pretty sure they need to be a background/non-important character first, right? Later appearances can change up things, but the first appearance is key?
...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yes at first, but has later became less important.
Siiiiiiiiiiiip
Which isn't relevant to the point. She started off as an important character. Those can't be Ensemble Darkhorses. It's for non-important characters.
...It's weird having so many websites and no way to properly display now, lol.
Oh... You're right. Ensemble Dark Horse requires that the character wasn't important at all, not a Demoted to Extra status.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
BTW, this is supposed to be cleaning up Base-Breaking Character entries in YMMV pages that don't fit these criterias.
edited 21st Feb '18 9:52:40 PM by AppleGates
No, the other one.
I don't think any of those characters are minor enough to qualify for Ensemble Dark Horse. They're one step below Mario and Bowser at most. May be an issue for the thread we have for that trope, or we can just delete them.
Check out my fanfiction!
I'm Sad Frogerson.
So does anyone approve of the entries getting cut? I'm going to list the entries side-by-side so you can see what I'm talking about.
Rosalina:
- Base-Breaking Character: Rosalina developed a case of this when she began appearing in many games, and it became very obvious after she became playable in 3D World and Super Smash Bros.. She's either considered a unique character who is a great addition to the franchise, or as an overrated knock off of Peach who receives too much attention when other characters could be getting it instead.
- Ensemble Dark Horse: Rosalina was very popular among the fans of the series, mainly thanks to her being one of the only, if not the only female in the main series that is not a Damsel in Distress and has more character and personality to her. Since her debut, she has appeared in several spin-off titles, was an unlockable character in Super Mario 3D World, and even became playable in Super Smash Bros., possibly the highest honor for any Nintendo character. Nowadays, she's more along the lines of a Base-Breaking Character, thanks to overshadowing several longer standing characters.
Waluigi:
- Base-Breaking Character: Waluigi to a pretty big degree. Those who hate him say he is a ridiculous Satellite Character with his sole reason or purpose to exist being to pad out the roster. Those who like or tolerate him say that his ridiculousness and pointlessness is the very essence of his character. And it goes on and on. He's never been featured in a non-spinoff Mario game until Super Mario Maker (as a Costume Mario power-up). There's also a subset of hardcore fans who generally dislike the Mario spinoffs to begin with. However, thanks to Alternative Character Interpretation , getting some good stages and music to his name, and getting his character taken in an overall hilarious direction, he's been somewhat Rescued from the Scrappy Heap and become a Base Breaking Character Ensemble Dark Horse in his own right, enough for people to actually get mad when he didn't appear in Mario Kart 7.
- Ensemble Dark Horse: Waluigi started out as a character solely to mirror Mario & Wario's rivalry by giving Luigi an enemy and completely lacking a personality beyond being overconfident and narcissistic. Since then, Waluigi has steadily increased in popularity over the years, even earning himself an appearance in Super Smash Bros. Brawl as an Assist Trophy. The biggest reason he's so popular is thanks to Brawl in the Family, where the fans of the series were able to see Waluigi in a different (crazier and funnier) look. He also became more of a mischievous trickster with some bits of Tragic Villain and Butt-Monkey as more games came out, giving him an overall better characterization other than just being a "rival to Luigi", got awesome music and stages to his name (particularly Waluigi Pinball in Mario Kart DS), and got more hilarious animations and roles in the games he appeared in. All of this with the Mario series constantly pulling in new fans who didn't have to deal with his early Scrappy moments, have been responsible for his more positive reception, even if he still is a Base-Breaking Character.
Pauline:
- Base-Breaking Character: Pauline is a mild case of this as there are those who wish Nintendo would finally let her have a bigger role in the games especially since she was Mario's original love interest while others don't simply care for her and argue that she just wouldn't fit in with the Mario series anymore. But at least Pauline still gets to occasionally appear in the Mario vs. Donkey Kong games. She also became extremely well-liked to the point of becoming an Ensemble Dark Horse with the revealed that she's the mayor of New Donk City in Super Mario Odyssey.
- Ensemble Dark Horse: Pauline is a bit character in the Mario series despite being important in a meta sense. She however has a small but strong fanbase who want her to appear in more games such as Mario Kart. Her reappearance in Super Mario Odyssey pleased many of her fans.
The Koopalings:
- Base-Breaking Character: The Koopalings have shifted from Ensemble Dark Horses to this largely thanks to spending three 2D platformers in a row as the end-world bosses, with Paper Mario: Color Splash adding an RPG offender to this trend as well. While they're still loved for being a Quirky Miniboss Squad with distinct appearances and quirks, and for Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam giving them more dialogue and not making them take up the roster of every major boss fight, a portion of the fanbase believes that they are becoming overexposed and are a large sign of the lack of creativity in the New Super Mario Bros.-based games. Wishes for the franchise to have more original bosses like the first New installment have also been on the rise just about every time they are confirmed to make an appearance.
- Ensemble Dark Horse: Bowser's original seven children, the Koopalings, were a well loved Quirky Miniboss Squad that appeared before being replaced by Bowser Jr. Their surprise return in New Super Mario Bros. Wii made many nostalgic fans happy, even if some are annoyed that they appeared in so many games after that.
Bowser in Paper Mario: Sticker Star:
- Base-Breaking Character: Bowser started to become one for fans of the RPGs after he became the Big Bad of every one of them starting from Sticker Star. To some, it is only natural that the main antagonist of the franchise should appear as a threat in the RPGs and note that he is still given his comical moments. The rest lament the lack of original villains, some of whom are fan favourites, and feel that this is indicative of a lack of creativity that is starting to pervade the franchise.
- The Scrappy: Bowser in general has become a divisive character for some fans of both active Mario RPG spinoffs for taking over as the Big Bad and breaking the trend of creating brand-new fan-favorite villains for the RPG's. However, his appearance in Sticker Star is near-universally reviled, as all his personality and humor from the previous games is wasted, and he has no dialogue whatsoever. Subsequent RPG games keep Bowser as the Big Bad but handle it much better by giving him more characterization and turning him into an interesting Knight of Cerebus; however, fans of the RPG original characters still tend to be bitter about his status, leaving him as a Base-Breaking Character.
edited 22nd Feb '18 8:24:55 AM by chasemaddigan
Is it ok when a fandom is so contentious, there's no agreement on any character? Like Doctor Who where literally every single doctors and companions have their fans and detractors.
Doctor Who is definitely one of those fandoms where trying to trope a 'definite' fan opinion isn't really possible. There's just too much disagreement.
If the fans and detractors have the same size, then it would count.
edited 22nd Feb '18 8:52:57 PM by AppleGates
No, the other one.
Doctor Who has a much too large middle to qualify.
The Mario entries should probably all be deleted for much the same reason. The exception might be Bowser in Sticker Star. The problem there is that the entry meanders way too much outside the actual example and talks more about the games where he's not an example. There's one game he might be The Scrappy (the actual game the example is about), but the rest of them are far too divisive and spread out to fit either trope.
Check out my fanfiction!
Goku Black
Yeah delete the doctor who page. There is waaay to much middle ground in the fandom for anything to truley be a Broken Base or Base-Breaking Character
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Um... I wouldn't advocate for a cutting the entire Doctor Who page. There're some characters who are more divisive than others.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
I took care of the Mario examples and moved them to discussion page. I left a link to the thread in both my edit reason and the discussion page, so we'll see if there's any objections to this decision.
Goku Black
Alright. Bring it here and we can see who to keep and who to cut right off the bat.
I'm Sad Frogerson.
Well the Base-Breaking Character entries I cut are listed earlier in the thread, so you go through those again to see if there are any keepers. I only cut the characters that were also listed under Ensemble Dark Horse or The Scrappy.
Goku Black
oh whoops I was talking to silverblade about Doctor Who
Which of the Base-Breaking Character entries in Super Mario do you think should be kept?
I'd argue somewhat towards the Koopalings being kept. The entry makes a fairly decent case for it (half the people still like them and the other half are sick of them being everywhere)
Unbeugsame Klinge
So, this section got added to the Splatoon 2 page recently. I'm personally in favor of cutting it, but I don't like doing that without getting a second opinion.
- Marie is effectively to Splatoon as Sans is to Undertale; she was an extremely popular character in the first game, but her fanbase collapsed on itself partway through the sequel's lifespan as certain players became irritated by the sheer amount of focus she gets in and out of universe. Many fans are annoyed by her Spotlight-Stealing Squad tendencies shoving her to the forefront of most promotional materials and merchandise focusing on Hero Mode, at the expense of equally popular characters like Callie and Cap'n Cuttlefish, who both get Put on a Bus to make room for more Marie. Certain Callie fans were especially bothered by the developers centering the sequel's entire plot around the outcome of the final Splatfest in the last game, considering how close the final scores were—see Pandering to the Base below. Besides that, and carrying over from the previous game, a significant portion of fan works focusing on the Squid Sisters focus only on Marie, with Callie being shoved into the background, ignored outright, or having her flaws exaggerated to make Marie look better—while this was easy enough to turn a blind eye to when it was only fan creations, doing so in an actual Splatoon game struck a raw nerve with thise who feel Callie deserves attention too. Other fans do still like Marie, but don't like how her fandom tends to play the "waifu wars" card (a divisive concept on its own, given certain events in the game's backstory) and promote Marie as "the only acceptable Squid Sister"—that a large portion of Marie's fanbase attempts to imitate her trademark Deadpan Snarker sense of humor without her good-natured edge, making a lot of them come across as just mean-spirited, doesn't help.
edited 8th Mar '18 3:46:39 PM by MisterTambourineMan
Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.
Yeesh, that's a wall of text. Seems quite one-sided as well and written by someone with a bit of an axe to grind.
I notices that Base-Breaking Character isn't listed in No Real Life Examples, Please!. Do you think real BBC are kosher?
I found on YMMV.Garth Ennis
- Base-Breaking Character: As an author who A: shamelessly uses his works to preach his beliefs and B: writes extremely divisive material, it should be no surprise that Garth Ennis elicits reactions from the comic-reader crowd that are as passionate as they are mixed. One side has people praising him as the herald of the true future of comics and the dispenser of ultimate wisdom, the other lambastes him as a preachy, arrogant hack who relies on shock and Bile Fascination to make a name for himself, and lost in between are the reasonable voices saying he's got both valid points and legitimate flaws.
The Broken Base cleanup thread discusses about examples in Broken Base, but this talks about examples in YMMV pages of works containing Base-Breaking Character, (despite being an Example Sectionectomy, this can still be seen in the YMMV pages of works) where the details on what is suitable is also vague.
Here is the criteria for Base-Breaking Character:
Base-Breaking Character is when half of the fandom likes a character, yet another equally sized half dislikes it. Now that happens, but the problem is, some entries aren't really contentious (thus not resulting in flame wars when someone says they "liked that character"). Also, several entries are one-sided towards the negative or the positive side describing that only side in detail, but then wrapping up with a single line saying "But the other half likes that character". A correct way would be describing it like "a split in the Fandom on who likes it or not", with details on both sides why they're liked and disliked.
Here's an example from YMMV.Undertale:
While it may have annoyed players due to these reasons above, there has been a considerable amount of fanarts and comics or her, and not only that, the like-dislike situation hasn't been so contentious (compared to Sans, whom he's popular, now he sucks.)
edited 21st Feb '18 1:46:31 PM by AppleGates