Setting Up Trope Relationships

x4 I think that the issue with Fairies vs. Pixies is that every non-traditional story of them draws the lines between the two in a different place, and even the folklore is... fuzzy on that subject.

Robot Kid seems to be focusing on Childlike behavior, where Robot Girl is more Young Woman, with the potential for romantic/sexual overtones.

x3 I'd think that the attractive critters tropes probably are siblings.

What do you mean by "attractive critters"? Are you saying Snakes Are Sexy is not a sister trope to the other three due to What Measure Is a Non-Cute?

Edited by Unnerving_Posterior on Apr 20th 2021 at 9:22:15 AM

I meant all of those that you mentioned, as well as any similar tropes if such exist. "Attractive Critter" in the sense that the trope is about projecting human notions of attractiveness on a set of non-human features.

I see. Thanks!

On another note, I would also like to clarify if Tanuki/Kitsune Contrast is technically a Sub-Trope to Elves vs. Dwarves rather than a Sister Trope. I was under the impression that the latter concerned the elf/dwarf dichotomy only, but now I noticed that its definition covers any pair of species/groups with a similar relationship.

Sorry, I completely forgot I posted here.

So, basically Plucky Girl is the sub-trope of Determinator?

Regarding Ironic Last Words.

It states it's a sub-trope of Famous Last Words. However, I'm wondering if there's misuse of Famous Last Words going on here. Famous Last Words warns people that it can only be in effect if the words become famous in-universe. It's not for a pre-mortem one-liner that's 'famous' to the audience.

Ironic Last Words looks like it just needs to establish some kind of irony betweem what was said and how they died. It doesn't appear to need fame to apply. It just needs irony. As a result, it appears to be perpetrating the very misuse the Famous Last Words trope warns people not to do.

That said, it should certainly be possible that some examples of Ironic Last Words will be famous (perhaps because of the irony), and therefore also be examples of Famous Last Words. That suggests to me that Ironic Last Words is a sister trope to Famous Last Words rather than a sub-trope.

What do people think?

Famous Last Words is known to be misused as "every character's last words, ever" on certain pages.

Yeah, it needs TRS.

Is Back-to-Back Badasses a subtrope of Interesting Situation Duel? Thinking of listing it on the latter.

I think that it isn't - the BBB tactic is so ingrained into culture that it's kind of the default when two people are outnumbered by a common enemy. ISD is for... odd things.

I've been looking at the page for Secret Identity, and it has a massive annotated list of "subtropes." I kind of think that the list was put together by someone who thought that all related tropes must be a super- or sub- trope to each other, or that all tropes that require the preexistence of another trope are automatically a subtrope. The following I question, and am considering removing:

• Anti-Climactic Unmasking: Someone rips off a superhero's mask, expecting someone extraordinary, but they get someone ordinary. Trope for a specific scene playout - requires that someone have a Secret Identity, but does not feel like a subtrope.
• Bruce Wayne Held Hostage: The villain tries to draw out the hero by holding the hero's secret identity hostage. A scene or plot shape. Secret Identity is a prerequisite, but not a supertrope.
• Death by Secret Identity: Someone finds out the hero's secret identity, but dies before they can do anything with the information. Plot trope about a specific villain or character getting death by author fiat so that they don't take over the entire story.
• Flung Clothing: Someone changes into their costume by tossing off their disguise in one flick motion. More related to Secret Identity Change Trick?
• Friend of Masked Self: The hero, in their civilian identity, claims to be friends with their own alter-ego. Technique to mantain The Masquerade
• Hates My Secret Identity: A hero knows someone dislikes them in their secret identity, but likes their super identity. Not sure where this fits?
• Identity Impersonator: The hero protects their secret identity by appearing in public with someone pretending to be their alter ego. Technique to mantain The Masquerade
• Loves My Alter Ego: Someone's Love Interest is only attracted to their heroic identity, not their secret one. Ditto —Sort of a stepdaughter to HMSI
• Likes Clark Kent, Hates Superman: A hero with a secret identity knows someone who likes one identity, but can't stand the other. Inverse of HMSI —same issue
• Old Beggar Test: A god or other powerful being tests someone by turning up at their doorstep posing as someone in need. Plot trope —focus on the actions/intents, not the identity.
• The Reveal Prompts Romance: The hero reveals their secret identity to their Love Interest, which causes them to commence a relationship. ?? somehow related to the above relationship tropes,
• Secret Chaser: Someone constantly follows around the hero protecting their secret identity, trying to find it out.
• Secret Identity Apathy: The villains aren't interested at all in learning the hero's secret identity.
• Secret Identity Change Trick: A person with a superhero identity must improvise a way to get out of sight to change identities.
• Secret-Keeper: A friend the hero has allowed to be aware of their secret identity.
• Secret Secret-Keeper: Someone finds out the hero's secret identity, but doesn't let the hero know that they are aware of their secret identity.
• The Unmasking: The hero reveals their secret identity to someone, willingly or by force.

Note that this is probably about half of the list on the trope page. Any feedback on better ways to describe the relationships would be great.

&

Yes, I think you're right about it needing some TLC. Is it okay for me to go ahead and change the 'sub-trope' reference to 'sister trope'?

I think underCoverSailsman might be right. I think it's possible for BBB and ISD to overlap if the BBB occurs if it's framed in an unusual way but that would both tropes are in play rather than it being because BBB is automatically a type of ISD.

I think that might need a dedicated clean-up. Some of the tropes you list wouldn't be sub-tropes because the Secret Identity is about the person who has the secret while the other trope is about a different person (for example, Hates My Secret Identity is about how Character X interacts with you).

A number of tropes you've listed seem to have that problem. Several of them look like they should be grouped togther as sister tropes under a super-trope of some kind, but not Secret Identity (for example, Hates My Secret Identity, Loves My Alter Ego, Likes Clark Kent, Hates Superman are basically 'interaction complications' themed).

Secrecy Breeds Problems?

The Masquerade tropes...

The Masquerade Will Kill Your Dating Life

Edited by Malady on Apr 25th 2021 at 5:35:00 AM

A Boy, a Girl, and a Baby Family is a Sub-Trope of Outnumbered Sibling, right? Because three siblings will always create an imbalance, if two of them are a boy and a girl?

I don't think so. Outnumbered Sibling is about the sibling, whereas A Boy, a Girl, and a Baby Family is about the family at large.

Thought-Controlled Power vs. Psychoactive Powers?

Well the former is about someone only needing to use mind to activate their powers and the latter is when a characters emotions affect their power. I don’t think they are that close to each other tbh.

Edited by MacronNotes on Apr 30th 2021 at 1:18:10 PM

Also "baby" is generally gender-neutral to avoid saying which "should" be more frequent.

I'm working on draft called Hu Mons, which is about Mons that resemble humans. I'm trying to figure out how it relates to Beast Man and Little Bit Beastly, as the examples include both tropes depending on the work.

Well, the line between them is fuzzy, but it will depend on the exact character: Is the mon more human or more critter?

Do opposite tropes both need to have the indication that they are opposite in the trope description? For example: On the trope page for The Team Normal at the bottom of the description where it lists trope comparisons, it says that it is opposite to Token Super, but the page for Token Super does not have the same indication.

Edited by Nejiiuyn on May 11th 2021 at 2:00:21 PM

If they are truly an opposed pair, I'd say yes. In this case, I think that they are. The correct phrase for this would be "Inverse Trope", not "Opposite". The current phrase was added after the page launched, apparently without discussion.

Since we've got this page up for consideration, I'd like to challenge the phrasing of Brought Down to Normal in the list of "Sister tropes". —Not really sisters, more like story roles that often overlap— As written, it reads as "Opposite of The Team Normal" When it's really referring to the previous entry, Badass Normal.

@underCoverSailsman

So should I go ahead and edit in Inverse Trope for both pages myself or should I take it to a discussion thread first?

Edited by Nejiiuyn on May 12th 2021 at 2:19:45 PM

This is the discussion thread for this kind of question. Might not hurt to wait a bit and see if there are any other thoughts, but if no one else chimes in changing with a link to these posts in the edit reason should be fine.

I'd say they're opposites.

Single Normal on a team of otherwise Supers.

Single Super on a team of otherwise Normals.

Edited by Malady on May 13th 2021 at 8:24:12 AM

Not sure if "Number of Objects" Title is a Sub-Trope of The Numbered Things...

I suppose "plot-importance" is variable, but the core is that the title is important, so yes, Sub-Trope?

Could Even the Loving Hero Has Hated Ones be related to Somebody Doesn't Love Raymond, maybe as an inversion? The former is "somebody loves everybody except one person" and the latter is "somebody is loved by everybody except one person."