Removing complaining, bashing and other negativity from the wiki

Also, if you need nine examples of how "nuts" a work is, in the very first paragraph, then you need to stop and go back to figure out how to write a work's description.

We can very easily condense the "insane bullshit Tats writes about" into a single paragraph without going into excruciating detail about how bad the comic is. People will get the gist.

@Warjay77, @ArthurEld, I'm cool with condensing it, as long as we convey clearly and up front what kind of Nazi bullshit it is. (Not using that phrase, of course, that wouldn't be neutral.)

So why the nine examples? Even I know calling something you-know-what isn't to be done lightly. The way I can back it up is to bring the receipts. Document exhaustively what happened, to hopefully make it clear to all that it did and how it did.

But I recognize this is excruciating detail, and I'm a massive bore besides. I'll give condensing it a try.

(I also thought it was of interest to document the sheer variety involved - I mean central banks? Really? - but the reception here has been less than great and, again, bore.)

@MyFinalEdits, it's very much our job to convey to the reader that a work is outright, straight up, no bones about it, Nazist. Do we celebrate The Turner Diaries without making it clear that it's written for white supremacists, about white supremacy, and has inspired numerous murders and terrorist attacks, including the Oklahoma City Bombing?

Does celebrating fiction bring with it no responsibilities? We cut and PRLC'd Stonetoss.

Edited by Kizor on Feb 1st 2024 at 12:45:14 PM

The paragraphs you added to the description weren't good. I fully agree that it's important to make it clear in Sinfest's description the kind of content the comic promotes today in order to warn people, but it needs to talk about it in serious way.

Using phrases like "Holy shit, y'all" or "Just close the tab. This is not a place of honor" or "*Inhale*..." is not how you write a serious description about a serious topic.

Stonetoss was cut for being too covert, with the creator refusing to admit their intentions. We do trope other bigoted trash with no issues.

Yeah the endless snark is at odds with the whole "this is a righteous responsibility" attitude.

It makes these edits bad and probably should prompt a look through your edit history.

Edited by ArthurEld on Feb 1st 2024 at 12:48:18 PM

I mean especially since this comic wasn't always this way, particularly before 2011.

There's also plenty of documentation both on the page as-is and on YMMV and in general discussion about Sinfest about the viewpoints expressed, the artist's vitriol, and how people understandably take issue with them. YMMV, discussion, reviews, and forums are the appropriate places to put those opinions though, like My Final Edits said in a previous post.

It's not always possible to completely excise your feelings from something that's objectionable and hurtful, but a work's description is meant to be a summary of that work and not how we feel about it. At its most basic, a work page is just the place to note "this exists", and saying that something exists isn't the same as endorsing its viewpoints.

Visual Novels has an example trying to impose a view on a character (more specifically Kokichi Oma) who is clearly indicated in-game to be Ambiguously Evil. I tried editing the example to be more neutral but it was reverted, and I don't want to risk getting into an Edit War, but it clearly sounds like complaining over and bashing the character.

It would help to post the example and explain what is wrong with it.

If you think the example is "wrong" that's a different matter.

@Warjay77 And that's exactly why we need to state it front and center here. Being too covert. We trope bigoted trash with no issues since they make it clear that they're bigoted trash. Stonetoss didn't, so it had to go. Sinfest doesn't, so we need to.

How many of our readers who click on one of its many trope images will notice and remember a mention of transphobia and antisemitism deep in the fifth paragraph? How many of them will come away thinking this means just another Long Runner going a bit odd, not peddling straight up Nazi bullshit? We're giving Sinfest a false veneer of respectability, and we're remiss. Gonna try giving the gist though.

@UchuuFlamenco, @ArthurEld I disagree on not handling important matters with levity or snark, but I'm not gonna start pontificating on the jester as truthteller, I'll just knock it off as it won't fly here.

@ArthurEld Since you're interested, IIRC I've written lengthy complaints here two other times within the last three years. One was changed back with the boilerplate PM, one without one. I didn't contest either. After the second one, I figured my ideas of when complaining is and isn't appropriate troping were way out of date (I learned them in the 2000s, when "foamy" was the only password you needed to edit and there'd been a decision not to have a forum) and knocked it off. Until yesterday, when I had to speak up about the Nazi bullshit.

@MyFinalEdits You don't accuse a work of Nazism lightly, but once you do, once you do think it's bona fide Der Stürmer crap, I think passing it off as just "controversial" or "general animosity" trivializes it. Terms like that lose the stink of the ovens, hence the Insistent Terminology. Does that make sense?

Edited by Kizor on Feb 1st 2024 at 10:42:12 AM

No, because it's not up to us to make any personal commentary regarding the work's controversies. We want to evaluate the tropes present in a work. You say that "passing off" something as just controversial trivializes the problematic nature of the work, but that's exactly the point of the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. If you're really uncomfortable for the "nazi BS" of this webcomic (and trust me, many people feel you here) and cannot bring yourself to edit the page maturely (and that means dropping the reactionary call-outs), then just don't edit the page at all and look for something else to edit in the wiki.

@ArthurEld, here is the More Hateable Minor Villain example I'm concerned about. As far as I know, the user who made the edit has a problematic history regarding edits meant to paint the explicitly Ambiguously Evil character in a solely negative light:

• Kokichi Oma is a generally unpleasant, sadistic Bitch in Sheep's Clothing and Card-Carrying Villain that, in addition to constantly antagonising his classmates and prolonging the trials despite fully knowing who is the culprit just because it amuses him, has masterminded two murder cases (manipulating Gonta Gokuhara into murdering Miu by showing him a Flashback Light of the outside world being destroyed, which Kokichi fully knew was fake; and then encouraging Kaito Momota to kill him as part of a Thanatos Gambit despite the risk of Kaito dying as well if the plan went south, which ended up happening) and was heavily complicit in another one (informing Ryoma Hoshi that Maki has his motive video, thus allowing him to see its contents, finally completely cross the Despair Event Horizon, and make himself into a sacrifice for another student willing to escape, while also clearing the way for Kirumi to murder him by getting everyone trapped in Gonta's lab). Even though he later orchestrates his own Suicide by Cop to end the Killing Game by creating an unsolvable murder, it's done not for any altruistic reason, but due to him hating being controlled by the mastermind.

Lunarsand got a suspension for bashing, and I don't think Kokichi is mostly hated, so it can probably be removed.

Sinfest is not covert. Tats, to my knowledge, hasn't pretended he's not a bigot. He's never hid beyond a facade of comedy the way Stonetoss did. And I already said we can discuss this stuff if we do it properly, so I don't know why you're trying to convince me about something. You brought up Stonetoss, a page that people have perpetually misunderstood the cutting of. I was just explaining why it's unrelated to this, as someone involved in the cut decision.

We are not removing the images unless you have anything better. And if someone walks away thinking that it's just another Webcomic, they'll either look it up and find out instantly or move on and be unaffected. Either way, if people can't read a few paragraphs, that's a them problem.

Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 2nd 2024 at 9:07:04 AM

The big problem with how to describe and trope Sinfest is that now it's basically a different webcomic from the one that it used to be. How do you describe a single work that is many works at once? It's not just that there was a shift of politics and tone, it's that the current comic bears a very In Name Only connection with the original one. I'm pretty sure the only reason Tats still uses the name and url Sinfest is because of brand recognition. He wouldn't get as much attention of he began a new comic with a different name and posted the exact same political "jokes".

Which makes it complicated to describe imo, because I can't think of similar situations. There are works with heavy tone shifts through the years and works with casts changing a lot, but I can't think of another case quite like this. What also make it hard is that the change was gradual and suffered many changes to get where it's not, so it's not like we can make a clear divide of "Old Sinfest" vs "New Sinfest".

Sidenote, but I found interesting that Wikipedia seems to be having the same problem with the description of their Sinfest article. The discussion page has some pretty long discussions about it.

I found this on Whisper Me a Love Song that feels very whiny.

• Base-Breaking Character: Shiho Izumi, has pretty much shattered the manga fandom upon her introduction. To some she is an amazing and complicated character with a rich backstory whose introduction gives hope of Aki finding a Second Love. To others though she is an annoying spotlight stealer whose introduction has caused a lot of unneeded and wangsty drama not to mention being on the more annoying side of the Tsundere scale. It certainly doesnt help that she does indeed become a heavily focused on character in later arcs which means fans are heavily divided on whether the manga is at it's greatest during her arc or that it became unreadable melodrama which ruined a sweet story.

Bumping my query for FandomRivalry.Other Media.

Yeah, there's already a thread for the work in Short-Term Projects.

Edited by Riolugirl on Feb 2nd 2024 at 5:04:41 PM

If there's an argument that there are effectively two Sinfest comics with a clear splitting point, it can be in own thread because it's not about complaining cleanup.

Some of the quotes for [Network Decay Quotes.Network Decay], specifically the ones in the "Real Life" folder, stand out as too bashy to me. Due to the nature of the trope itself, it's not a surprise that the quotes are all negative. But there's a difference between quotes from comedy bits and networks [Self-Deprecating Humor mocking themselves in bumpers], and quotes like these:

"After weeks of rumors that TLC would become the less one cunt network (so that's what TLC really stands for) by dropping Kate Gosselin completely, they have officially announced that Kate Plus 8's current season will be its last... But on the bright side, now that the cameras will no longer be crawling all over their house, the kids won't have to see their lens-fucking mom as much."

—DListed, "Kate Minus a Show."

TLC is notorious for its Network Decay, but this quote isn't about that (unless I missed something), it's about the show itself. Yes, the show contributed to the network decay, but this quote is about how the show and its star are terrible, not the damage that they did to the network.

"Maybe I'm suffering from 90's baby "Who Moved My Cheese?" syndrome, but Cartoon Network may want to focus on CARTOONS.. Even [adult swim] sucks. With the exception of The Boondocks, the Anime-Saturday blocks, and few other shows, it's horrible. Tim & Eric aren't funny. The World Around You is not funny. Where is my adult-oriented funny?!? It's like the very industry I want to be a part of is falling down around me."

—Jhenne Tyler B., Et Tu Cartoon Network?

I'm removing this one anyway because the link is dead, but this one starts out relevant, talking about Cartoon Network's (ultimately short-lived) live-action block...then delves into bashing Adult Swim, which I've always thought of as a separate entity from Cartoon Network. Not only that, but their complaint about Adult Swim seems less live-action focused, and more that they don't consider any of it funny, which is subjective. (Or maybe I'm butthurt because I actually like both Tim & Eric and World Around You lol). Again, removing anyway because it's a dead link. But I wanted to point out that blatant complaining like this is a risk that the Network Decay Quotes page runs into.

Finally, one that (I think) can stay....but does the "yes, really, they actually admitted this" line count as complaining? Also, it potholes to Incompetence, Inc., which is No Real Life Examples.

So, do I have permission to cut the Kate Plus 8 quote and the "they actually admitted this" line, or am I being too sensitive? (I am going ahead and cutting the quote with a dead link and the Incompetence, Inc. pothole.) In any case, I think we should keep an eye on that page (I think the other quotes are ok but you can look and decide for yourself), and any quotes page for a negative trope.

Any thoughts on (x4)?

I agree with your assessments. I'd keep the CN quote up to the "Cartoon Network used to be about CARTOONS" bit if the link weren't dead. The WWE quote can stay without the pothole or the "Not Making This Up" Disclaimer.

Kizor went and vandalized Webcomic.Sinfest's main description. Not sure if that was the intention, but if it wasn’t, it should’ve went by us first.

EDIT: Reported this to ATT

Edited by PlasmaPower on Feb 2nd 2024 at 9:20:08 AM

I used to ask about the YMMV Entry on Tekken 8 on Rooting for the Empire. The game's out and I think the stance has shifted that I dunno if it should be removed or fixed. But just in case, let's put it here:

ORIGINAL.

• Some players who were unhappy with Jin's actions in Tekken 6 were actively rooting for Kazuya to come out as the victor in their duel, claiming he's much less of a menace than his son since his atrocities did not cause millions to die. Making harsh but true points about who started the war and having what these fans felt was a better Freudian Excuse helps with their claims, though this argument also fell into accusations of Draco in Leather Pants from the other side.^*  Counterpoints include Kazuya's campaign against Jin being a publicity stunt with no altruistic intentions whatsoever; how unapologetically evil Kazuya has been for the majority of his appearances, including making the Mishima Zaibatsu even more corrupt than when Heihachi ran it (Jin fared little better in 6), tormenting his own son who he never met in-person before 4, and continuing to indulge in heinous acts after unifying with Devil (whereas Jin started out as the White Sheep of the Mishima family, only to be betrayed by Heihachi and begin walking down a much darker path, and is firmly The Atoner for his actions in 6 to the point of having no qualms with dying at the hands of people he wronged such as Miguel); and Kazumi's death at Heihachi's hands never being brought up as part of Kazuya's grudge against his father prior to 7, therefore coming across as a poorly inserted Retcon that ultimately falls flat because of Kazuya's characterization and actions from that point on. And to make it even worse, Kazumi being part of the reason for his grudge against Heihachi is not really part of his motivations for fighting Heihachi in 7, it's only as a kid where he mentions it, but as an adult he doesn't, the "You killed my mother" line that was on trailers wasn't used in 7 itself, though she still shows up in his flashback montage where he remembers how long Heihachi has tormented him, Kazumi gets little focus. So even using that as an excuse doesn't really help in making him sympathetic when Kazuya himself doesn't think much about her. Of course, there's a third camp under the impression that, save for outliers like Jun, Asuka, Lars, and Lee, the entire Mishima blood feud has been a horridly bleak affair wherein none of its key players look good^* A common complaint of the main story in 7 is that its attempt to humanize Heihachi and Kazuya failed because it continued to escalate their Eviler than Thou competition from previous games, undermining the intended tragic aspect of their generational conflict. , feeling that the world would be better off if neither Kazuya nor Jin survived the game's events.

'FIX PROPOSAL'

• When the game only had trailers, some players were still holding a grudge against Jin for his atrocities at Tekken 6, to the point they root for the more Obviously Evil Kazuya for still making a point about the war they're in, regardless of how this would still make the outlook of the world really bleak. After release, however, the sentiment is mostly lifted as the game shows Jin's journey to accept his sins and atone for them, thus making the story fans feel more comfortable rooting for Jin.

So... fix it or remove it?

Edited by ChrisX on Feb 3rd 2024 at 12:52:42 AM