Badass tropes - now on: Action Girl

Well not really, several princesses pull a Rebellious Princess against the kingdom and lead armies to topple their father's kingdoms or lead other people's armies like their prince's.

Both Warrior Prince and Warrior Princess are both kind of subtropes to Royals Who Do Something but its slightly different. Especially in the personality department, both types usually have specific personalities, Princesses will typically be Tomboy Princess at the very least.

edited 29th Oct '15 8:33:14 PM by Memers

(Forgive me as I randomly insert myself into the convo.)

It's also common for a Warrior Princess to have a Proud Warrior Race Guy thing, and/or be in a matriarchal society where women rule. Not always, of course, but more often than you'd think.

The Warrior Prince just isn't usually treated the same by the plot (and when they are it's very rare), especially since Princes are sort of expected to be warriors.

Also I don't see a problem with tropes that are this trope + this trope if they are their own archetypes or have relatively unique plot elements.

edited 1st Nov '15 10:40:23 PM by NoirGrimoir

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)

I don't want to include "rarity" or "uniqueness" in this conversation. We have things like Fan Myopia because such things are subjective.

Those aren't subjective. Those are assumed. Being rare and unique are sates that can be measures and verified.

Yet those things can also be misused and overused, since assumptions of those states are rampant without people bothering to check if it's true.

edited 2nd Nov '15 3:27:13 AM by DragonQuestZ

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

I want to recap this.

1. We currently have a trope named Badass Princess.
2. There is an argument that this is not a trope and instead is the "Badass+trait" problem. If nothing else, then it needs a rename
3. There is an argument about whether Badass Princess should become the Distaff Counterpart to Warrior Prince, that shall be known as Warrior Princess or if it should stay a Warrior Prince redirect.
4. Is there more than one trope in Badass Princess; "official military leader" as distinct from "non-professional warrior" as distinct from "not a warrior but plucky".

Do I have this right?

edited 5th Nov '15 11:54:07 AM by ChaoticNovelist

I maintain that since a prince is more often portrayed as an action person (save for something like a foppish Prince Charmless) and that being an Action Girl is still more rare for princesses, then whatever this trope will be, it is still distinct from Warrior Prince.

I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.

I agree. For them to be the same would only occur in a setting where Gender Is No Object and/or an egalitarian Proud Warrior Race Guy culture. What do you suggest we do with the Badass Princess page?

I think Like A Badass Out Of Hell would actually be easier and more pertinent to clean up than Badass Princess (well, technically we're still on Badass itself, but since Rjinswand is still working on his analysis, let's see what we can fix in the meantime).

It's about four or five tropes in one that could be YKTTW'd, most of them with a distinct meaning—not all of them even necessarily require leaving Hell as the current name implies. Currently it's divided into several named "types":

• Fought His Way Out: The guy is tough enough to simply break himself out, carving a bloody path through The Legions of Hell (and frequently taking a level in badass on the way). What most people probably think this trope exlusively refers to. Could be renamed as Escaped from Hell or similar. Related to Rescued from the Underworld.
• Got A Job: Satan recognizes the sheer badassery of the newest customer, and offers him a Deal with the Devil — usually by offering him a second chance if only the guy can do a few things for him, like pack and ship a few more souls for his collection (although sometimes the task is more bureaucratic in nature). This has a good chance of backfiring on the Devil... even though the devil should know better already. If it can't be merged with the former, this sounds distinct enough to be its own trope. I don't think we have a Promoted To Demon as a subtrope of Deal with the Devil yet.
• Kicked Out: He's such a monster that even Beelzebub doesn't want him around... and since Heaven obviously won't accept him, he's unceremoniously kicked out of Hell and Barred from the Afterlife. This can result in a Flying Dutchman situation, but the stories where this happens rarely explore the consequences that far ahead. This is already covered by Barred from the Afterlife.
• Took Over: Satan doesn't want the guy in Hell because the guy will freakin' TAKE OVER. Or maybe he already has — Hell needed a change of leadership anyway, and this guy provides it! Exactly what happens to the previous boss often isn't explored, but whatever the case may be, the Big Bad just got bigger. Usurping The Devil seems distinct enough to have its own trope.
• Forced To Take Over The Job: Something of a combination of the second and fourth. The hero just wanted to get rid of the Ultimate Big Bad, really. But in the spirit of He Who Fights Monsters and You Kill It, You Bought It, is seems that As Long as There Is Evil demands that there always be an Ultimate Big Bad. Thus, the next qualified applicant is the hero that slew the old one, whether they like it or not. Rarely, they Take a Third Option and go to breaking the laws of the universe. This would best be hit with a The End to the story to save the Fridge Logic. This is already covered by You Kill It, You Bought It.

edited 6th Nov '15 10:12:50 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

That sounds both necessary and reasonable. I support it!

Would this make Like A Badass Out Of Hell (after a rename, of course) a supertrope to all of these?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

No, probably not. Get Out Of Hell could be a supertrope (if there are any examples left after a reorganization, of course) to Escaped from Hell and Rescued from the Underworld, and possibly Barred from the Afterlife, but only occasionally with the others. Theoretically someone could either kill the devil and take his place or become a demon in some other way, then never leave Hell.

edited 9th Nov '15 3:26:35 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Perhaps an index would work. For sure, a way to organize all these tropes would be helpful.

BUMBING!

What is needed to get this thread moving again?

1. Should we prepare definitions for two proposed tropes?
2. A crowner to switch the name from Badass Out Of Hell to Escaped from Hell?
3. disambig?

Prepare definitions for two proposed tropes including Badass Princess? I would like that.

I don't think there's a problem with the defintion of Badass Princess. The problem is with the name. I was referring to the Badass Out Of Hell tropes, Usurping The Devil and Promoted To Demon.

BUMB! I wrote a rough draft for a supposed definition of Usurping The Devil. You can see it here.

edited 24th Nov '15 12:02:17 PM by ChaoticNovelist

New spelling of bump? I guess language drift happens faster than I thought.

Jokes aside, I'm coming in to just let people know that this TRS thread on Action Girl had a crowner that decided on turning it into a supertrope. However, I'm not sure how that would fit it with your plans to re-work Badass, so I'd like some feedback before we go ahead with the move.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)

^^ Looks good.

I've also made a preliminary description for Promoted To Demon and did some example sorting on Like A Badass Out Of Hell. A bit more tweaking and these can go to YKTTW.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

I like the current form of Promoted To Demon; the basic structure is solid. Like you say, only tweaking is necessary now.

Further description tweaking is what YKTTW is made for, so I'll post these over there to collect more input. The current page quote on Like A Badass Out Of Hell would be great for Usurping The Devil; after the last few tweaks it looks ready as well. Btw, do you want sponsorship of the Usurping The Devil one?

So things left to do:

• Escaped from Hell still needs a better description. EDIT: posted a first version here.
• Move Barred from the Afterlife examples to that trope.
• Sort the remaining examples into their nearest tropes or the possible Super-Trope.
• Figure out what to do with Like A Badass Out Of Hell, probably through a crowner. Disambiguate? Redirect to Escaped from Hell or the Super-Trope? Something else?

edited 30th Nov '15 2:34:42 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

I can take it.

Okay, so YKTTWs are now up for Escaped from Hell, Demon of Human Origin, Devil's Job Offer, and Usurping The Devil.

I've also finished sorting most of the remaining examples on the Like A Badass Out Of Hell sandbox. Most fit into either the new tropes or Barred from the Afterlife / To Hell and Back / Rescued from the Underworld. A few cover multiple examples, like one character escaping hell and another one getting a job in hell. These need to be either split with sufficient context added or cut down to fit at least one.

There are however a few examples I'm not sure fit anywhere:

• Chew: Poyo probably could have fought his way out, but instead the government used a nuclear-powered artificial heart, a jet engine and enough power to black out North America to bring him back.

—>Satan: He's not retreating, he's merely seeking more fertile ground for conquest. Mark my words —Somedaw, Somehow— He will Be back. And upon his return, Shake the very foundation of Heaven and Hell. Irrevocably, irredeemably... Because that is one bad-ass-mother-fuckin' bird!

Rescued maybe? Sounds more like he just came Back from the Dead.

• The Olympics plot of DC Nation. A combination of a Chekhov's Gun placed with Troia and a Type 1 starts a big battle. Troia triggers the Chekhov's Gun and it summons a horde of fallen allies to rocket up from the underworld and join the brawl. Everyone from former Teen Titans (including Wild Card Terra, who decides to betray Hades!) to Easy Company...even a cadre of 9/11 First Responders. Leading the horde is Hawkman. Arsenal is on his left. Nightwing is on his right, announcing the entrance with a very loud "TITANS TOGETHER!" and a narration joke about literally being a Bat out of Hell.

That's the Army Of The Dead.

• There's the curious cases of the ghosts in the third His Dark Materials novel. First off, the place they are escaping is really more like an especially hellish (because it is so damn... boring) version of Limbo. Secondly, the ghosts the reader is primarily concerned with are indeed Bad Ass, but they are also good guys. Anyway, they turn out to be the ultimate fighting force against an army of Eldritch Abominations.

Sounds like escaping, but there's a lot of rambling that doesn't really have to do with anything. Not sure if escaping from Limbo counts.

• After Emperor Nero died, it was rumored that he wasn't dead but hiding in Parthia and would return to conquer Rome. In some versions of the story, however, he had died, but would return anyway.

So did he go to hell or just come Back from the Dead?

• Mass Effect 2 opens with the Player Character being killed (after a Heroic Sacrifice). Cerberus brings him/her back to life via pioneering and very expensive medical procedures. While Shepard doesn't remember what happened while dead, even Garrus invokes this trope in one conversation when talking about Shepard: "Hell, the Collectors already killed you once, and all they did was piss you off. I doubt they'll succeed a second time."

Doesn't say anything about hell.

• Ninin Ga Shinobuden parodies the hell out of this in episode 5, simultaneously lampooning almost every aspect of this trope. Onsokumaru gets killed and sent to hell, where he meets some ninja ogres. He becomes their leader. They then attempt to invade heaven on the pretense of delivering a pizza, but the people in heaven are so annoyed by him that they kill him again, sending him back to earth.

?

• Asmodeus and Ghost Rider had a race out of Mephisto's realm with each one promised a gift if they won. Ghost Rider obviously won and got nothing.

Not sure if that's an example of anything. If I'm not mistaken (haven't read the comics), both characters can already enter and leave Hell whenever they want.

edited 2nd Dec '15 1:50:39 PM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

Those don't sound like genuine examples.

edited 5th Dec '15 9:28:48 PM by ChaoticNovelist

I'd hate to double post but I wanted to make clear my intent given the last post. I like all the tropes suggested to be split off from Like A Badass Out Of Hell. I carried an Idiot Ball when I said to "delete them", thinking that this was a clean up thread for Five Man Band.

It turns out the real Idiot Ball was this post. Someone give me a Dope Slap, please.

edited 5th Dec '15 9:30:03 PM by ChaoticNovelist

Alright, I'll go ahead and cut the examples listed in post #1447 later on if no one objects.

Update: Devil's Job Offer and Demon of Human Origin are now live, YKTTWs for Escaped from Hell and Hell Has New Management are nearing completion.

For the index/supertrope idea, how about a So You Want To or Just for Fun page for "Get Out of Hell"?

edited 13th Dec '15 2:09:13 AM by Morgenthaler

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"