What's Happening

Troperville

Tools

collapse/expand topics back to Monster/Pokemon

 

Greener223224
topic
11:28:08 AM May 21st 2013
Can someone please tell me why it was not enough to just simply remove Ghetsis' article from this page, but to also delete any connection to this term he has from the ENTIRE WEBSITE, INCLUDING THE HEADSCRATCHERS!?!?
Nithael
11:57:39 AM May 21st 2013
Well it was voted that he wasn't a Complete Monster as it is defined by TV Tropes, so what did you expect? That some parts of the site would say that he fits the criteria, while others say that he doesn't? You may disagree with the conclusion of the discussion, but otherwise it seems pretty straightforward to me.
Greener223224
11:41:41 AM May 22nd 2013
It's a YMMV trope, just because a few mods and others who agree with anything they say out of fear for their lives take one side on an argument doesn't mean everyone with a different opinion needs to be shut out! YMMV is for opinionated discussions, not a "Mods hold ultimate authority even over variables and the entire damn site" kind of thing!
Larkmarn
11:43:07 AM May 22nd 2013
If he's deemed not a CM, then referring to him as one elsewhere is just wrong.
ANewMan
02:16:29 PM Aug 1st 2013
Thy Headscratchers might not be outright calling him a CM, though. They could be bringing up how everyone sees him as one. Honestly, I see Greener's point here. Removing any and all connection that Ghetsis ever had and still might have among fans with the Complete Monster trope from this site, even on Headscratchers, YMMV, and Sugar Wiki, is proving that the wiki has exactly the sort of Draconian policies that people fear it does. Keeping with the wiki rules is one thing, which is why serious reference to Ghetsis as a CM has to go. But going father beyond that is just silencing free speech, plain and simple.
Shaoken
09:46:29 PM Sep 6th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
No, every last reference to him as a CM has to go, because some people just can't let go of the fact he was cut and used every last avenue to get around that ruling. Half of the misuse of this trope came from potholes which gave tropers the wrong idea about how this trope worked, which just made things worse from there.

And ditch the "free speech" bullshit argument. You have the right to say what you want to say, but you don't have the right to force someone else to give you a platform to say it from. You think he's a Complete Monster? Good for you, that doesn't mean you get to put that voice on the wiki.

The character was ruled not to count by a majority concenssus, using the process set up and refined over three years, with the main oponents to it's decision being like the OP and attacking the messengers rather than the message; the people who voted to cut and burn Ghetsis weren't pressured, afraid, or otherwise influenced by any moderators into making their decision, it was people like you who continuely try to argue that their opinions aren't legitatemte that has resulted in the character being placed on the "Never Again" list.
Greener223224
09:05:42 AM Oct 9th 2013
edited by 192.75.71.135
So what you're saying is that the wiki hates Flame Wars SO MUCH it goes out of its way to obliterate ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE SPARKS, EVEN ON YMMV AND WMG. That's not only Draconian, that's downright Encyclopedia Dramatica Retgonning-level cowardly.
Larkmarn
10:42:22 AM Oct 9th 2013
We don't like our tropes being misused. So we delete misuse. Calling him a Complete Monster is just wrong. I fail to see why you have such an issue with this.
Shaoken
08:25:49 PM Oct 26th 2013
What Lark said. Misuse encourages more misuse; people start to call a character a Complete Monster, other people get the idea he is one and start editing to reflect that, misuse spreads and defeats the point of a clean up.

So what I'm saying is that when people throw a hissy fit that a decision didn't go their way and try and throw a rant on every page they can, that shit gets cleaned up. If someone misused any other trope (let's say potholing Darth Vader with Fantastic Racism) we'd delete the pothole, because it's objectively wrong. Nothing Draconian there, just maintaining consistency.
ANewMan
09:18:13 PM Jan 9th 2014
edited by 98.25.4.230
You think he's a Complete Monster? Good for you, that doesn't mean you get to put that voice on the wiki.

I remember the days when We Were Not Wikipedia. And YMMV and subjective tropes meant something. Those were the days...

it was people like you who continuely try to argue that their opinions aren't legitatemte that has resulted in the character being placed on the "Never Again" list.

LOL, I'm sorry, WHO continuously tried to argue WHOSE opinions weren't legitimate? Because I recall 32_Footsteps basically calling the Pokemon fandom ignorant children prone to overemotional mood swings for daring to think of Ghetsis as a Complete Monster.

So what you're saying is that the wiki hates Flame Wars SO MUCH it goes out of its way to obliterate ANY AND ALL POSSIBLE SPARKS, EVEN ON YMMV AND WMG. That's not only Draconian, that's downright Encyclopedia Dramatica Retgonning-level cowardly.

Sad but true.

We don't like our tropes being misused. So we delete misuse. Calling him a Complete Monster is just wrong. I fail to see why you have such an issue with this.

If Ghetsis were potholed to Complete Monster or flat out called a Complete Monster, yes, delete that. It's inaccurate with the Wiki's view. But things like Sugar Wiki (which is opinionated by nature) thinking of him as one or something stating that fans see him as one...those don't seem so damaging. And yet they still get removed because the wiki is that afraid of people getting "the wrong idea."

If someone misused any other trope (let's say potholing Darth Vader with Fantastic Racism) we'd delete the pothole, because it's objectively wrong.

Complete Monster used to be a subjective trope, though. But now just this wiki can define who is "factually" a CM and who's not. This whole thing is what they say about the road to Hell.

AmbarSonofDeshar
05:02:16 PM Jan 10th 2014
^Yeah, no. That's not how the wiki works and you know it. You've been around the CM thread long enough to know how it works. In fact you told us you were over the Ghestis issue, yet here you are again, slagging Footsteps and the rest of the thread behind their backs.

If anyone wants to complain about Ghestis' deletion, bring it to the thread. You can read in detail why he was cut by using the search function, and if that doesn't cut it for you, we can explain to you in detail why he was cut. Ranting about it here solves nothing.
ANewMan
05:31:14 PM Jan 11th 2014
edited by 98.25.4.230
I recalled something Footsteps said that came off as demeaning the opinions that disagree with the wiki. How is that "slagging him?" I didn't know criticism of this guy was crossing the Moral Event Horizon. I'm sorry, OK?

No, he's on the NEVER AGAIN list: he should not be brought up on the thread, and quite frankly, I don't expect to change any minds here. I know the decision was finalized a long time ago. Ranting about it here solves nothing, but at least it doesn't derail an entire thread that has a job to do like bringing my complaints to the cleanup thread would do.

And I've heard "in detail" why he was cut, and it really amounts to two things: failing the heinous standard and too much Offscreen Villainy. I believe the most problematic thing, though, is that while I can actually understand where and why Ghetsis falls short if going by the FAQ of the thread, he does match up with the exact definition and criteria that's stated on the actual Complete Monster trope page. He's a bad guy full-stop utterly lacking in redeeming features, has not been close to redemption, is presented as thoroughly negative and heinous in-story, his terribleness is played serious and evokes fear, revulsion, and hatred from the other characters, he's completely devoid of altruistic qualities and has no regrets for his crimes. With this in mind, it's easy to see why some newcomers who read that description on the trope page might think Ghetsis fits the bill and be surprised that he's not listed as an example: they don't know about the thread, what it does, and all the extra criteria the FAQ gives. Don't get me wrong, I support the cleanup effort on the thread and think it's done good work, but putting the FAQ at the start of a forum thread that people might not even know about has always bothered me.
AmbarSonofDeshar
01:19:47 PM Jan 15th 2014
^Claiming that Footsteps is solely responsible for the character's removal, and accusing him of being demeaning etc when he's not here to defend himself is pretty low, and that should be obvious enough.

As to the rest of it, ranting here isn't helping, because all you're doing is giving the clean-up thread a bad name. Neither is harrassing tropers in PM with new write-ups for the character, or any of the other things you've been doing lately.
ANewMan
11:22:32 AM Jan 17th 2014
edited by 98.25.4.230
No, Footsteps alone was not responsible. He may have swayed some votes in his position's favor, but it was still a vote. And I won't accuse him of anything if he's not around. I'm sure he didn't mean to be demaning anyway.

Nothing can be helped. Some characters got to stay on the trope, others got cut regardless of how fair or unfair it seemed to some people. Ghetsis was one of many. The PM thing was for a hypothetical write-up that's not really going anywhere (it can't be a true "new write-up" if the character in question, by the wiki's ruling, is not an example of the trope). I'd take that way over derailing the thread and the discussions any further, though. At least then it stays private.
AmbarSonofDeshar
07:39:36 PM Jan 22nd 2014
^Then why bother doing it? All you do when you send a "hypothetical write-up" is create the impression that you're still sore about it.
ANewMan
12:57:58 PM Jan 25th 2014
You can be still sore about something while still accepting the reality of it, y'know.
Camberf
topic
10:36:34 AM May 17th 2013
So, is this the place where I'd submit my Hunter J entry rewrite discusssed here? I'm kind of new at this, sorry.
MsCC93
04:01:02 PM May 17th 2013
Hunter J is already on here!
Camberf
09:02:53 PM May 17th 2013
Yeah, that's why it's a rewrite.
MsCC93
05:18:51 PM May 21st 2013
You should try the Edit request forum instead.
Johnny1993
topic
03:12:21 AM Jan 11th 2013
why was Ghetsis removed?
SeptimusHeap
moderator
01:07:25 PM Feb 11th 2013
Because taking over Unova isn't evil enough.
AnewMan
04:20:47 PM Apr 11th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
Okay, then how 'bout raising a child specifically to be his pawn in his plan to take over the world? Warping his mind to believe in a distorted truth about humans and Pokemon just so he could become the Hero? Manipulating everyone, even those on his own team, as stepping stones for his rise to power? Hiding under the ruse of good intentions and lying to people in order to get them to release their Pokemon so that he can then be the only person who can use Pokemon as means of oppressing others? Wanting to enslave everyone? Getting off on bringing down others to elevate himself, shamelessly admitting to sadism, saying that he enjoys watching people suffer and loves when they lose all hope and break in despair? Being cruel and abusive (in mental and phsyical ways) to people and Pokemon alike, all of whom he shows no concern for since he only cares about himself? His scheming being behind every deplorable action Team Plasma takes, and thus everything wrong in the story? Being ready and willing to dispose of his pawns like it's nothing, including his own "son"? Having the audacity to insult said "son" for being exaclty what his plan was pretty much hinging on him being? Torturing Kyurem in order to make it comply with destructive actions that endanger many lives? Ordering Kyruem to attack the player character directly so that he/she will freeze to death? (As said bellow: "Put it in context. No main-series villain in Pokemon has ever tried to directly attack the PC before.") And shutting down the offer of a second chance from his "son" who was willing to give it to him despite everything he did? Is all of that "not evil enough?"

Sorry if that was long, but while Ghetsis' evil can be overstated and exaggerated by the fanbase, I feel like it's been understated and misrepresented by some of the people on the site as well. There actually is a valid argument for his status as a Complete Monster. I'm just not sure I should go into it any further since he's considered "permanently disqualified."
Greener223224
11:06:34 AM Apr 17th 2013
I thought the main argument was because N's name was "Natural" and that he wasn't the 13th candidate for Ghetsis' plan. Also because N was adopted and his raising was all offscreen told by two people who never even share any screen time with either of them.

But still, that does NOT excuse how much Ghetsis is as despicable as Dr. Weil.
AnewMan
09:14:17 AM Apr 20th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
"14th candidate" you mean. And that wasn't the main argument for his disqualification because that fan theory was fucking stupid to begin with. Seriously, a letter for a name leads to that theory? For one thing, baby killing's too dark for a Pokémon game, even with all the other dark stuff they put in. And if Ghetsis had to go through 13 kids before he finally got it right, he would've been at this for years and years, and clearly Ghetsis is not that old. The "no offscreen villainy!" policy is a better reason, but still not agreeable seeing as we see the results of Ghetsis' upbringing of N on-screen (N's room, N's beliefs, N's actions), which match up perfectly with what Anthea, Concordia, and the man himself tell us.

I agree that it's inexcusable. Ghetsis was eliminated for bogus criteria brought up on the forums (mainly failing the heinous standard) even though he matches the actual trope perfectly. Let's see:

The Complete Monster is the most depraved of all characters; a villain utterly lacking in redeeming features. Check. Ghetsis is depraved and utterly lacking in redeeming features.

Or, anyway, that is how the character is presented in the story. The character is a bad guy, full stop. Check. He's presented as a bad guy, full stop.

The author has not taken the character through any actions toward redemption, or at least any that stuck. Check. He even had a Redemption Rejection in the sequel.

The character is truly heinous by the standards of the story, which makes no attempt to present the character in any positive way. Check. I've stated before that Cyrus is a moot point in these games' story, even if it takes place in the same universe. In this story, Ghetsis is pretty much presented as the devil. And even by Pokemon standards, at least Cyrus played by the rules of Pokemon battle. Ghetsis was going to have a Pokemon attack the Kid Hero directly.

The character's terribleness is played seriously at all times, evoking fear, revulsion and hatred from the other characters in the story. Check. Ghetsis' terribleness is played up more than any other Big Bad of previous games, and he does evoke those reaction from characters: Alder, Cheren, even his own henchmen.

They are completely devoid of altruistic qualities. They show no regret for their crimes. Check. Ghetsis embodies It's All About Me, caring for nothing and nobody but himself. All positive qualities are a ruse that completely breaks as the game progresses. And he regrets nothing, for he is "perfect."

Though he might not count by the wiki's standards, by the standards I just listed, Ghetsis is a Complete Monster through and through.
MsCC93
04:00:39 PM May 17th 2013
Well that's why the Complete Monster is a YMMV trope, because not all people agree or disagree. (no offense, tho).
Greener223224
11:26:08 AM May 21st 2013
@Anew Man: I hated that theory, too. It was way too much conjecture and comparison to Tykebombs you see in anime (i.e. Fate Testarossa), plus it would suggest that if he raised 26 nutbars like N, he'd have to have kept the remaining 12 in cages somewhere in the castle as backups.

I always saw Ghetsis in his base form as a total jackass. No Endor Holocaust aside, BW 1 Ghetsis was absolutely despicable.

But then came the Jossing, and the mods used that as a reason to take down Ghetsis' classification as a Complete Monster, and then, for some stupid reason, systematically ran through THE ENTIRE WIKI to take down any connection between Ghetsis and the term. All I wanna know is WHY they did such an overblown action.
ANewMan
02:23:16 PM Aug 1st 2013
@Ms CC 93: The aim of the cleanup is to make the trope not subjective anymore, though.

@Greener: Because this wiki is Draconian and will remove any connection between a non-example and the trope they were once considered an example of with extreme prejudice. It sucks, but I don't see it changing any time soon.

What gets me is that there's this criteria that states a Complete Monster can still be one in a universe where a more heinous villain exists if they're as bad as can be with what they have. I feel Ghetsis IS just that, and yet he's STILL axed for failing the heinous standard compared to Cyrus! Really, when you take out the "heinous standard" thing, Ghetsis lines up with the exact definition of a Complete Monster. His removal for the trope is always going to be something the wiki is mocked for, but I can deal with that.
Shaoken
09:58:48 PM Sep 6th 2013
Not this argument again; he was voted fairly by an entire threads worth of people and cut. Some people bitched and complained and basically attempted to force the issue with repitition and arguing the same points over and over again to the point of blocking other characters from getting discussed and all instances got burned.

There's nothing Draconian about this; he was democratically voted and removed in a process that each and every one of you was welcome to participate and vote in that thread. All connections were burned because some people couldn't accept that their character lost and started to try and go around the system.

And so what that TV Tropes is getting mocked? TV Tropes is always going to be mocked by someone for something, had we kept Ghetsis in we would have been mocked by others for the same reason. Not a valid reason to influence decisions.
ANewMan
09:11:00 PM Jan 9th 2014
edited by 98.25.4.230
No, I saw what went down, and it didn't seem to me like "an entire thread's worth of people" voted him down. More like one person said he wasn't one and wrote off all arguments as "whining from an immature fanbase that doesn't know true monstrous evil when they see it." Really, I think what it all came down to was that Ghetsis was cut from CM because a few people didn't want him to be a CM.

I still consider Ghetsis' removal from the trope to be My Greatest Failure. Were I to only do it over, I'd make better points and propose an entry like this:

And no, I highly doubt it'd be mocked by having the franchise's definitive Complete Monster as an entry on Complete Monster.
AmbarSonofDeshar
05:04:31 PM Jan 10th 2014
^Yeah and then we'd be mocked by the Berserk fandom for having Ghestis on the same list as Griffith and Ganishka. Someone is always going to complain about how we do things here; we really don't care.
ANewMan
05:28:12 PM Jan 11th 2014
edited by 98.25.4.230
Ghetsis will never be on the same level as Griffith or Ganishka: no Pokemon villain could be! And it's not even the same list, it's just the same trope. It's divided into series folders, isn't it? Ghetsis would be on the same list as Purple Eyes, MD Darkrai, Hunter J, Grings Kodai, and DPA Charon. By the logic you put forward, that's people like a mere bounty hunter and Corrupt Corporate Executive on the same list as Griffith and Ganishka. I don't get the need to compare Monsters of one series to Monsters of another. There is simply no way all examples can be as equally heinous as each other, because these are different series', different mediums, different standards. True, people will always complain: I suppose telling yourself "haters gonna hate" is the most one can do?
AmbarSonofDeshar
01:22:37 PM Jan 15th 2014
edited by 216.154.76.67
^All this "people are going to make fun of us" garbage is getting old, especially when it's coming from a guy who wrote an entire blog post slagging the site and then bragged about it. You want the website to get some respect? Stop being part of the problem.

And I'm not comparing him to Griffith, I'm saying that complaining about how "people will be upset that Pokemon's signature monster isn't on the list" is about as silly as saying "no Pokemon villain should be on a list with the Berserk villains". They're both ridiculous complaints that have no influence whatsoever on how we do things in the thread.

I'll also add that guess what? We're a bunch of people sitting around discussing literary conventions. Someone is always going to mock us.

The only person who has used the phrase "haters gonna hate" is you. Though given all the rants about draconian policies, etc, I'd say you are proving your point.
ANewMan
11:34:42 AM Jan 17th 2014
edited by 98.25.4.230
What? I never even said "people are gonna make fun of us" there at all. Of course they are. Anyone will make fun of anyone at times for things that get done and things that don't get done: nothing that can be done about that. One blog might slag one site, that site in question might slag the blog, then some other site might slag that site or blog for entirely different reasons. It's called expression varying opinions on the internet. Very seldom is it "right" or "wrong." The website will never get worldwide respect regardless of what it does and doesn't do. I am not demanding that it bend over and do what I'd like it to do. I'm expressing disappointment that it didn't, but am making no demands. If the wiki wants to do things in accordance to what folks feel is best for the wiki, that's their right.

Oh, I understand now. That does make more sense. (Though I didn't say "people will be upset that Pokemon's signature monster isn't on the list": there's no "will be" about that since it's already happened. I said "I doubt much people will be upset if he WAS on the list.")

That was my point exactly: someone is always going to mock us. Because TV Tropes, when you get down to it, is geeky. I just wish it was a bit more honest about that rather than trying to be all artsy and professional and formal, especially when that goes completely against what's stated on the main page.

"Haters gonna hate" is almost like a Fan Speak internet term, not a phrase you need to actually use. I'm referring to the mentality.
Trivialato
topic
11:18:07 AM Dec 20th 2012
I'd like to nominate N's Pokespe incarnation for Complete Monster, please.
Nithael
02:24:29 PM Dec 20th 2012
Nominations have to be brought up in this thread. When you do, please state your reasons why you think it's a CM - what has the character done, do they have an "excuse or a "good" reason for doing this, and is there anything good about them.
Trivialato
07:03:41 AM Dec 21st 2012
Yeah, I can't do that. Not the finding good reasons part, I mean the posting on that thread. I've been locked out of the forums.
AnewMan
04:23:34 PM Apr 11th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.42
N from Pokémon Special is FAR from a Complete Monster. One of his FIRST SCENES has him crying over how humans are treating Pokemon: that's like an immediate disqualifyer right there. Being more evil than his gameverse counterpart does not make him this Trope. He's just a more extreme Well-Intentioned Extremist.
Greener223224
11:18:39 AM May 21st 2013
Um, crying about something like "evidence" towards his Madness Mantra wouldn't really count as something like that. Besides, the crying is supposed to be a symbol of open sadness. Remove the tears, and you have Manga!N's usual emotionless glare staring back at you.
ANewMan
02:13:42 PM Aug 1st 2013
Regardless, it still shows that N has feelings and emotions over his friends getting hurt. That is a big redeeming quality. And N has done nothing remotely close to being worthy of being called a Complete Monster or even nothing close to being a Moral Event Horizon moment. Lastly, the arc has ended and he was revealed to have been brainwashed by Ghetsis all along. Big shock, I know. So he's definitely not a Complete Monster and I still can't see what would lead anyone to think he could be one to begin with.
AkiraxAtsukifan
topic
09:50:28 AM Sep 24th 2012
Where are most of the video game examples? It's not just the spin-off's that have complete monster characters.
ManwiththePlan
02:43:07 PM Sep 25th 2012
I take it Ghetsis' entry was removed because it got too long? Someone needs to write a new one then. There's no way Ghetsis does NOT belong in this trope: if Black/White didn't make him out to be enough of one before what with the way he raised his adopted son, there's no mistaking it after he tries to have your character murdered in the sequel games.

Similarly, we must put the Cipher Syndicate back on but this time ONLY mention Evice, Nascour, Ein, and maybe Ardos too. Snattle, Lovrina, and Greevil don't fit the bill 100% despite the terrible things they do.
EarlOfSandvich
03:47:49 PM Sep 25th 2012
edited by EarlOfSandvich
I did state my reasons through the edit reason some edits ago, and yes the examples have been brought up on the Special Efforts thread (the ones I linked to are not the only pages such things are brought up), and thus I acted according to discussion. Team Plasma doesn't qualify because it is in violation of the "No Groups" rule (maybe there are heinous individuals within?). From what I recall from discussions, the case of Ghetsis needed onscreen justifications for being within the heinous standard (As in the case that was brought up isn't strong enough to maintain an entry), and thus he falls short of being a CM. If you wish to state your case, please do visit this thread.
DarkHero9
11:23:50 AM Oct 7th 2012
edited by DarkHero9
Ghetsis hits every single mark in the game with how he treats not only N, but how he treats Pokemon and Team Plasma throughout it, and is even called an inhuman monster INGAME. Also, I'm not sure about you, but I'm pretty certain that their are other examples like Ghetsis who are still in these pages, you guys just needed to slim it down not outright remove it.

It's very clear that Ghetsis is heinous, just by what he does in game, the offscreen stuff is just the cream of the crop.
Nithael
03:00:16 PM Oct 7th 2012
Since our Double Standard page is about sexism, I'm not entirely sure this is a case of Double Standard. Also, calling somebody a monster In-Universe is an example of You Monster! and nothing else.
DarkHero9
05:14:36 PM Oct 7th 2012
edited by DarkHero9
First off, that Double Standard thing was a crack at how inane some of these edits, I'm sorry you don't understand sarcasm unless I put it like this. Here, I removed the offending joke since obviously you don't get it.

Also, the You Monster! doesn't change the fact that Ghetsis' actions in the game still make him a Complete Monster, even by the new standards. You also need to realize that since this game series is primarily a series aimed at children that by these standards Ghetsis is pretty much Palpatine or Sauron levels of evil, just toned down so that it won't be as traumatic for kids.
Nithael
01:22:59 AM Oct 8th 2012
No it wasn't any kind of sarcasm. It was just you linking to a page you obviously hadn't read, and you know it. Don't bullshit me.
Tomodachi
11:50:01 PM Dec 16th 2012
How about the fact Ghetsis try to KILL you (or freeze you, if you want)? How´s that doesn´t make him a complete monster?
Nithael
06:10:18 AM Dec 17th 2012
Because if "trying to kill the hero who wants to stop them" was enough to make someone a complete monster, then every villain in fiction since the dawn of time would be one.
TroperOnAStickV2
08:30:07 PM Jan 7th 2013
Put it in context. No main-series villain in Pokemon has ever tried to directly attack the PC before.
Shaoken
12:49:31 AM Apr 10th 2013
But trying to kill the hero is a staple of half of all villians in existance. It's not considered something that's henious since it's sort of what villians do by definition.

Anyway the matter is closed, Ghetsis was disqualified by the cleanup thread and the issue was permamently shelved after repeated attempts to re-add him revealed that every argument against him had been covered and debated exhaustively.
ANewMan
02:24:26 PM Aug 1st 2013
Put it in context. No main-series villain in Pokemon has ever tried to directly attack the PC before.
Shaoken
12:55:58 PM Dec 24th 2013
Still doesn't change the fact that it's a standard villain act.
ANewMan
09:04:10 PM Jan 9th 2014
Not by the standards of the Pokemon world. And it's not like Ghetsis just try to kill the PC like any old murderer would. He attempted to give him/her a slow, torturous death because he's made it clear that he's a sadist who enjoys the suffering of others. Hunter J made the cut as a CM for the anime by being a torturer/attempted murderer combo. Yet Ghetsis gets disqualified for the same exact reasons. Completely inconsistent, TV Tropes.
AmbarSonofDeshar
01:24:57 PM Jan 15th 2014
And I still think J should be cut. Hell, I think just about everyone on the Pokemon list should be cut. Yet you don't see me complaining about it.
ANewMan
11:37:42 AM Jan 17th 2014
Everyone? Mystery Dungeon Darkrai, Purple Eyes, and Grings Kodai could at least stay. The first two being, if anything, far worse than Ghetsis.
flamemario12
topic
01:18:16 AM Aug 16th 2012
I think we need to shorten Ghetsis's entry. Seriously,are we trying to make Ghetsis looked much more eviler than Saint?
ManwiththePlan
02:39:44 PM Sep 25th 2012
Saints are good people. Ghetsis is not.

ManwiththePlan
topic
06:06:27 PM Apr 2nd 2012
edited by ManwiththePlan
I think it was covered before why Cyrus does not qualify as a Complete Monster. When the entry that was put had to mention that Your Mileage May Vary twice, then it shouldn't go on this page. And really, all the reasons it covered basically amounted to "he's insane and crossed the Moral Event Horizon with his plans". That alone does not a Complete Monster make. Especially not the insanity part: from his twisted point of view, he had damn good reasons for taking the measures he took and while that's not to be agreed with, it does make him an understandable and pitiful character as opposed to someone who is truly pure evil. And his character was left open ended, so it's not as if redemption is impossible for him just because he didn't make a Heel-Face Turn by the end of the game. (On side note, I also think that last part about all the lead Cipher members minus Evice, Nascour, and Ein.)
Athena13
topic
04:38:00 AM Feb 23rd 2012
Move to get rid of the gratutious spoiler tags regarding Ghetsis? It's been over a year since the release, nearly a year since the European and American releases, and being a main series game it shouldn't be nearly as obscure as the spinoffs. Basically, people are going to know pretty much everything under the spoiler tags about BW now.
back to Monster/Pokemon

TV Tropes by TV Tropes Foundation, LLC is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License.
Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available from thestaff@tvtropes.org.
Privacy Policy