Discussion DragonBallZ / TropesAToG

The Frieza example specifically talks about the five minutes until Planet Namek's destruction, not the entire saga.

The Buu Saga, at least in how it is cut on the DVDs, doesn't officially starts until Buu is awakening.

The five minutes until Planet Namek's destruction isn't a story, though. There are many parts of stories that take place in under three days. If you're willing to put enough slices into it, every part of every story takes place in under three days.

Buu's awakening isn't the beginning of a story either. It's the conclusion of Kaioshin's efforts to prevent his awakening, which continues out of the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai which, itself, continues from Gohan's adventures as the Great Saiyaman. Regardless of how the DVD might advertise it, the story doesn't begin with all the characters already in the positions they're in when Buu awakens.

Oh look, it's another one of those "we have to agree on the same values or measurements of extremes for this trope to work" tropes.

The thing is, Gero didn't just want to kill Goku. His actions lead the world into a Bad Future and turns the world into hell because he made Androids 17 and 18 hate humans so they will help him take over the world. On top of that, he forcibly kidnap Androids 17 and 18, and turned them into androids against their will.

He also creates Cell, an android that eats other people to evolve and if you believe Cell, Gero wanted him to destroy the universe as vengeance against for the Red Ribbon Army being destroyed.

That is not proportion.

Unless he programmed them to murder him in the face, Androids 17 and 18 were going off-script.

Cell speculates that Gero may have intended him to end the universe, but that's just his thoughts on the matter and it's provably false; Gero didn't intend for him to exist at all. Gero abandoned his plans for Cell and his computer continued the project in his stead.

The only thing we know Gero wanted was to kill Son Goku. Everything after 17 crushed his skull was the androids' own doing.

It was said several times that Gero made them hate humans so they will happily kill them. The only thing off-script they did was kill Gero.

Cell didn't speculate. He out-right says this Gero's design for him is to destroy the universe in revenge for the army. You can argue that Cell could be wrong, but it wasn't speculation on his part, he truly believe that is his purpose. He also isn't proven wrong. He only leaves Cell alone because making him would take too long so he left the computer to finish the task while he did something else.

No, Gero wanted more than just to kill Goku. If that was only it, the androids would not have been activated in Trunks' timeline since Goku died six months before the androids awakening. On top of that, Gero and Android 19 personally killed a city fill of people who had nothing to do with the Red Ribbon Army.

Sorry, nothing Gero did is proportional since he didn't just go after Goku. He went after the entire world.

"Cell didn't speculate. He out-right says this Gero's design for him is to destroy the universe in revenge for the army. You can argue that Cell could be wrong, but it wasn't speculation on his part, he truly believe that is his purpose."

...Ramona, that is the definition of speculation.

We are the ones speculating if he could be wrong. Cell never says that he was speculating and he never come off as him guessing. He says without any shred of doubt that Gero created him to destroy the universe as revenge towards the Red Ribbon Army. And given how insane Gero is, I wouldn't put it past him.

But even if we did discount Cell's testimonial, Gero still created a man-eating android to take revenge for the Red Ribbon Army, regardless if it was his computer who finished the job.

Gero came up with and then scrapped a man-eating android. Cell wasn't supposed to be completed.

That being said, Ramona raises a good point about the Bad Future. Goku dies and Gero activates the Androids anyway. That's pretty condemning.

^^ Speculation doesn't mean that Cell has to say that he's speculating. Speculation is when statements are made without proof, and you pretty much admitted that Cell doesn't have any. Now, that doesn't mean Cell doesn't have reasons or evidence to support his claim, but evidence, reasons and proof are not the same thing. Unless what Cell believes can be argued to be both proven and true, it's speculation.

For the record, I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm saying that your arguments don't make any sense.

As for Future Gero—do we have any reason to believe that he knew about Goku's death before he was killed by the Androids?

We don't know the full extent of his knowledge but we do know he used mechanical insects to spy on everyone. It's speculative either way but there is reason to believe he would have caught wind that Son Goku died.

The spybots also enhance another point Ramona made: his androids attacked South City. The only reasonable reason to do so is to draw out Goku and his companions, but Dr. Gero shouldn't need to do that; he could just have his Androids go straight to Goku's home. He knew where it was.

That's arguing based around an unproven conclusion though. Namely, the assumption that he was spying at that time.

For all we know, Gero stopped spying after he collected the data he wanted. By that time, Cell was already being developed by his computer, and he'd turned his attention towards Androids 17 - 20.

Without the assumption that Gero knew facts that we can't prove he knew, neither of those assumptions makes sense. We are also making an assumption that Gero had no reasons for attacking South City (tactical advantage, stealth, etc.).

This is the reason I hate tropes like this—unless we are specitically TOLD it's in play, it requires a number of assumptions and judgment calls on our part.

It IS an assumption but it's one based on Conservation of Detail. If Gero had a reason to attack South City, the responsibility falls on the Work to communicate that to us. As it never did, Gero - as depicted - attacked South City unprovoked. Ultimately, we can't trope what isn't in the story. We can only catalog events as they were communicated to the audience.

Agreed, but that goes both ways. As such, we have zero reason to believe that Future Gero knew Goku was dead before releasing the Androids, unless there's a throwaway line that indicates he did.

That being said, I'm still not convinced this is the trope. The description is so all over the place that it's no help, and the laconic just says "the punishment exceeds the offense". What, exactly, exceeds killing every single person in an armed force?

Goku violently dismantled a group that was created for the purpose of "wishing a short man a bit taller." Killing plenty of them, yes, but probably not all.

None of whom are hinted to be even that close to Gero personally or anything. He's not shown to be taking revenge for his fallen friends or anything, but he actually seems to be instead be sad that the idea of the Red Ribbon Army is gone.

An army that, again, existed solely because a short man wanted to be taller.

Commander Red kept that close to his chest. Staff Officer Black was so shocked that he killed Red for it when he found out, and he was Red's right-hand guy. It's very unlikely that Gero or anyone else in the Army knew it served any purpose other than taking over the world through military force and/or a Shenron wish.

So, counting Larkmarn and me, that makes two for Disproportionate Retribution. I don't know where King Zeal stands.

Also, Gero did say that he stopped spying on Goku years ago, which is why he knew crap about Namek, Super Saiyans, or Goku and them training for three years. So he wouldn't know about them being in South City. In fact, he was surprise that they were there.

Three for. While I don't agree that Cell should qualify given that he's an abandoned project Gero never intended to complete, I do agree that attacking South City when he knows damned well where everybody lives demonstrates that he intends his vengeance to be indiscriminate rather than pointed at any particular target.

Goku only technically surrenders twice. Against Vegeta after he got his legs crushed and couldn't move anymore. And against Cell since he already knew he wasn't going to win and fought mostly so Gohan can see Cell fight. He kept fighting Android 19 despite his body shutting down, kept going against Frieza despite the odds, and kept going at Kid Buu despite the severe power drain of Super Saiyan 3. I should also note that Goku giving up against Cell is an outlier, which is why everyone is shocked, including Cell, when he surrenders.

Vegeta fought on Earth until he was closed to death, as the doctor who took care of him noted. I will give you reaching despair against Frieza and Cell, but those were outliers since characters noted how OOC it was. Buu was Vegeta using the option he thought would kill Buu because of his regenerate, not him giving up.

Goku is unquestionably a Determinator. The only times (I'm aware of) that he's decided to stop fighting a villain is if he knows a better way to beat them. When Frieza proves how much he outclasses Goku, Goku gets an entire pep talk from Vegeta and then a Heroic Second Wind, saying he doesn't care how much stronger Frieza is and that he won't let him win.

That was the absolute last time (as far as I'm aware) that Goku was so grossly outclassed and had no backup plan.

As for Vegeta? I'd say no. Vegeta fought on Earth not out of sheer determination, but because he was convinced he was still stronger than everyone else. Even without his Ozaru form, Goku was down, and he was still stronger than Krillin, Gohan and Yajirobe combined. When Gohan turned Ozaru, he still thought he could win as long as he cut off his tail. After being crushed by Gohan, though? Nope. He ran.

Other examples:

1. He tried to run away against Captain Ginyu.
2. He tried to run away against Frieza (Form 2).
3. Completely lost the will to fight Broly.
4. He ran away from Android 18.
5. He completely lost the will to fight Cell.
6. He tried to take Buu out with a Suicide Attack, but I hesitate to call that an example of determination.
7. He FINALLY showed determination (I'd call it Character Development) against Kid Buu, not staying down no matter how badly he was beaten.

If we're talking about non-combat instance, Vegeta shows his determination in the following ways:

1. An unwillingness to submit to anyone.
2. The patience and diligence to put himself through Training from Hell.

In this case, I'm seeing "Determinator" as "unwilling to stop giving it their all, even when there is no chance to win". Goku has that, but Vegeta doesn't. Goku will still fight even if there is absolutely no hope. Vegeta won't.

Vegeta didn't run from Captain Ginyu out of fear. He ran because he wanted to Dragon Balls and Goku would have his hand full fighting, given him the perfect opportunity.

Frieza 2nd form was filler in the anime, he never tried to run in the manga, and Broly isn't canon either. He never ran from Android 18, I don't know where you're even getting that. He kept fighting Android 18 even with a broken arm. Cell is an outlier along with Frieza since Gohan is shocked that Vegeta gave up, and he suicide attack Buu because he saw that as the only way to kill Buu since he kept regenerating from every attack, not out of fear or him given up.

I'm not sure we should be making distinctions between "canon" and "non-canon". If it was published, it was published. We can, however, leave a note saying it only happened in the anime.

Oh and you're right about Android 18. I was mis-remembering.

I am making the distinction because the movies are their own thing that doesn't fit within manga or anime's timelines. You can list Broly as an incident that happened, but it should be its own thing and even then it is treated as a big OOC moment for Vegeta, much like Vegeta being frightened of Beerus.

My point, yes Vegeta have given into despair unlike Goku, however, these incidents are treated in-universe as OOC moments for Vegeta, not his general personality.

Are we actually done here? I noticed that Ramona changed the page without a consensus being stated.

After a couple days with no disagreement, it's fair.

Anyways, sorry to leave everyone hanging. I'm back. Reviewing Goku: I thought he gave up when Frieza started attacking him before he could finish the Genki-Dama but I misremembered. Pointless though it is, he still bothers to take one last punch at Frieza. Without Piccolo's intervention, his last moment would have been of fruitless defiance, not concession. He counts.

So far as Vegeta is concerned, running away from Frieza may be filler but giving up and refusing to keep fighting against his Final Form isn't. After Vegeta throws his strongest attack at Frieza and Frieza effortlessly kicks it back at him, Vegeta loses the will to keep fighting. From that point forward, it's a one-sided beatdown as Frieza dominates Vegeta and Vegeta doesn't offer even the barest token effort to defend himself.

• He gives up and leaves at the end of the Saiyan arc.
• He gives up and stops fighting Frieza.
• He gives up and stops fighting Cell.
• He blows himself up because he knows he can't beat Buu; violently ragequitting the fight.

When every arc features a moment of Vegeta quitting the fight because it's too hard, I am hesitant to label it OOC. Vegeta talks himself up at every opportunity, but he knows when he's beat.

I would call what he did at the end of the Saiyan Saga given up since he fought until he can barely move anymore. What was he going to do to fight, bite Krillin's ankles?

And for goodness sake, he didn't rage quit against Buu. He did his final attack to kill Buu, thinking that this was the only way since Buu kept regenerating. He didn't blow himself out of spit or anger. Last I checked, making a Heroic Sacrifice is not giving up.

If we're going to be literal, yes. A determinator would have gnawed off Krillin's ankles with every ounce of his remaining strength. That's especially important in a series like this, where Heroic Second Wind is a literal power boost.

As for the Buu situation, I don't know...

Kamikaze attacks can be argued as both an acceptance of inevitable defeat and Defiant to the End.

Yeah, a Determinator doesn't overlap well with Know When to Fold 'Em. And Vegeta gets broken too often to really count.

But I'd definitely accept Taking You with Me as a sign of a determinator.

Really? I'd personally consider it both a combination of acceptance of defeat (in other words, a normal victory is impossible) and determination (desire to gain some measure of victory, even if pyrrhic).

I don't remember enough about the Buu sacrifice to swing it toward either way, though.

Taking You with Me can go either way, I'd say. It doesn't necessarily indicate one or the other.

Vegeta can be pigheaded and stubborn, but it's generally out of overconfidence, not determination to keep fighting an impossible battle even to his last breath. He gets drunk on his own ego pretty easily, but once it becomes clear even though his thick skull that he can't win the fight, he has no qualms about quitting.

As we discussed above, Goku and Vegeta's respective behavior towards Frieza perfectly illustrates the difference.

• Knowing that Frieza was beyond his ability, knowing that the Genki-Dama wasn't going to have enough time to charge, knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that it was pointless, Goku still took the opportunity to try and swing at Frieza as the tyrant bore down upon him. Had Piccolo not intervened, Goku's final moment would have been a defiant, hopeless last punch effortlessly blocked by Frieza.
• Knowing that Frieza was beyond his ability, Vegeta lost all hope and stopped making even a token effort to defend himself. He gave up and allowed Frieza to beat him to death.

Ignore this, it was supposed to be a separate post, not a reply.

I keep replying to this instead of making my own conversation. I'm bad at Discussion.

This is a game trope. Absolutely nothing that I saw in the description indicates that it can be expanded for story use.

This is also the same person who was planning to have Master Roshi and Krillin help him fight Raditz, making a 3 on one fight. In the end, he ganged up on Raditz with Piccolo and he planned to win by grabbing his brother's tail.

During his fight with Vegeta and Frieza, Goku didn't mind his friends ganging up to help him beat the enemy. He went as far as getting Gohan to transformed into a Great Ape and then mentally guided him to attack Vegeta. Not to mention that he actually shot Vegeta's eye out when he transformed into a Great Ape and blinded him with a Solar Flare before then so he can charge the Spirit Bomb.

He attacked Recoome of the Ginyu Force while he was charging up his ultimate technique and punched Jeice in the face while he's talking. On top of all that, he has bitten several characters like Frieza and Buu.

Goku tries to fight fair most of the time, but he has shown that he can be a combat pragmatist. Also, Goku let Frieza charge to his full power not out of fairness, he did it to humiliate Frieza with the knowledge that even his absolute best wasn't enough to win and crush Frieza's pride.

Hrm. I'd say it's zigzagged. He almost invariably tries to make the playing ground level, but on that level playing ground, he'll do whatever. From groin attacks to eye-gouging (remember, his very first signature attack involved an eye-poke) to biting, he seems to have no compunctions. He just doesn't like fighting his enemies when they're weakened.

It's handled in such a weird way I honestly don't know how to say it applies, if at all.

Agreed with Larkmarn. He's got a very "Japanese" definition of "pragmatic" about him. That is to say, Goku wants to see what an opponent can do with all of their tools in place. Once those tools are in place, though, he very much feels that anything goes.

I would count Raditz (and the Saiyan Saga as a whole) as a case of Early-Installment Weirdness, as that was before Toriyama started codifying shounen tropes. From Namek onwards, there was never a fight were a healthy Goku resorted to teaming to beat any villain. (Fusion doesn't count.)

Likewise, his fight with the Ginyu Force was framed as Recoome and Jeice having poor form. He attacked them because they were (in his own words) "wide open", which I take to mean that DBZ works on a principle that whenever a character like Frieza takes a million years to transform, they still somehow avoid leaving themselves open.

How is Raditz Early-Installment Weirdness, it happened in the middle of the manga and Dragon Ball was like five years old at that point. Even before then, he didn't mind Tien helping him against King Piccolo. He only protested help during the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament because it's against the rules. He also had no problem ganging up on Vegeta after he lost, having Piccolo act as live bait for the Spirit Bomb against Frieza, and did it again against Kid Buu.

I am not saying that Goku is a complete Combat Pragmatist, obviously. But he have done dirty or somewhat unfair things to win. He isn't always Honor Before Reason.

Maybe that's not the right trope, but the Saiyan Saga was definitely different in regards to what came after.

I would say Goku has a skewed sense of what's fair game for a fight, but that he isn't a Combat Pragmatist. Biting, hitting below the belt, abusing someone's Achilles' Heel, etc. is all fair game to him, but not because it's pragmatic.

He tends to let his opponent set the rules, but he does play by those rules once they're established. He doesn't consider grabbing a Saiyan's tail to be an underhanded tactic; after all, people have been doing it to him for years and he found ways to overcome it.

Part of the issue is that most of the time, when Goku's sense of fairness is even addressed at all, it's outside Z. The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai in DB, for instance, has Goku insisting on staying inside the ring even after Piccolo's made it clear that the tournament no longer means anything; in a life-or-death battle, he's still playing by the rules and trying to become champion.

Battle of Gods meanwhile has Goku whining about the unfairness of having to rely on other people's strength to match Beerus rather than doing it all himself.

But in Z proper, it doesn't really come up much. For the most part, he adjusts his power and attitude to match the tone of the battle, which might be set by the opponent or his allies. Recoome is leaving himself wide open so Goku takes the opportunity presented. Frieza wants to power up to full so Goku's going to let him do it. Fighting the Androids sounds like fun so nobody take advantage of the warning to assassinate Gero. Cell wants a 1v1 tournament so nobody gang up on him. It's Gohan's turn to fight Dabura so Vegeta shouldn't interfere. Etc. etc.

Contrast Trunks and Goku's approaches to Frieza. Goku goes for Cruel Mercy; he wants to piss off the planet-killing tyrant by humiliating him and then leave him to dwell on it, so he allows Frieza to power up to full and quits the fight twice. Trunks takes advantage of the first opening to kill Frieza and end his threat forever. He neither knows nor cares if this is his full power; he's ending it right now, no f*cks given.

Trunks is pragmatic; the only thing that matters is that Frieza is dead. Goku isn't; he's deliberately refraining from overwhelming Frieza with his Super Saiyan swagger so that he can strike a symbolic victory instead.

Also, to avoid starting a new thread while this one's going: should Gohan be counted as The Ace?

This trope isn't just about being phenomenally powerful; it's about being highly competent and immensely respected. Everyone knows about Gohan's power, but it only comes in short bursts. There's few instances where Gohan's power actually manages to change the tide of the battle and solve all the problems, and even fewer instances where the cast is like, "Oh my god, Gohan is here, we're all saved!" the way they do with Goku.

That said, Kaioshin does treat Gohan like The Ace in the Buu arc, putting all his hopes and plans on him. But it ends in disappointment.

I don't see how Goku hating how he became a Super Saiyan God is an example of anything other than Goku's pride. He still went through with the ritual and he didn't whine. Beerus pressed him about why he hated godhood and Goku told him. He didn't see it as unfair, it just irks Goku that he needed the power of others to get stronger or reach a power he couldn't have on his own.

And Frieza is a bad example because he wants Frieza to suffer for killing Krillin. Him being honorable or fair has nothing to do with why he allowed him to go to full power. It was all vengeance. Trunks literally have nothing personal against Frieza so he kills him quickly because he got bigger fish to fry.

Actually, Goku did consider grabbing a Saiyan's tail dirty. He even called it unfair when Grandpa Gohan did it to him. The only time he played by the enemy's rules is in the Cell Games. Everything else was more or less a free for all where Goku bits, blindsided, aim for the eyes, ganged up on an opponent, and used others and even himself as bait. If you asked almost anyone on the streets, they would considered the above dirty or somewhat unfair tactics in a fight, especially bitting and blinding someone.

On the ace, Goku treats Gohan as such after he leaves the Hypobolic Time Chamber, putting all his faith in him to defeat Cell. The Supreme Kai and Old Kai treated him as such when he was the last one able to fight Buu. Doesn't matter if he succeeded, he was treated as The Ace and Gohan's hidden power was hyped up in the Saiyan and Frieza Saga.

The tail thing is proving my previous point: Goku considers an advantage unfair, unless it's characterized as a failing on the opponent's part. Having an inherent weakness in your tail? Goku considers that unfair. Having a weakness in your tail that can be overcome with training? Now it's just YOUR fault.

But Goku never told Raditz that. He laughed and told Raditz how much it hurts to have your tail grabbed, not that it's his fault for not training.

It should also be noted that when Krillin sucker punched him after grabbing his tail didn't work, Goku cried unfair. But he had no problem socking Jeice mid-sentence and ramming his elbow into Recoome while he's charging up. He also called foul when Whis sucker punched him when he was making a point about Goku being too relaxed.

Characters don't have to say everything that the story implies. Goku talking about how much it used to hurt when someone grabbed his tail carries an implication that it's Raditz's own fault he still has that weakness. Especially since Vegeta much later on makes it clear that he has no such weakness.

But Goku didn't know that about Vegeta. In the original and the Kai dub, he doesn't know that grabbing Vegeta's tail is pointless. He just never tried it. Even then, Nappa calls Piccolo grabbing his tail dirty.

Fact of the matter is, when one side do something like hitting someone off guard, blinding, and biting, characters in the actual series called it dirty. Recoome and Jeice calls Goku dirty for sucker punching them, Vegeta calls Goku dirty for blinding him with a Solar Flare and shooting his eye out.

Goku called other dirty when they sucker punch him and called Frieza trying to blow up the planet since he can survive in space a coward's move. So the character themselves fully acknowledge when one-side or another is using dirty tactics and it's often followed, 'in a life and death battle, anything goes'.

I didn't say Goku knew about Vegeta. I said it was a running theme in the story.

Also, you are still proving my point. All of the characters complaining (including Nappa about the tail) are all villains complaining about heroes using legitimate tactics.

Goku also didn't really care about Frieza sucker punching him. Yes, he called it "dirty", but only to mock Frieza, since Frieza himself was the one who said he wouldn't use his hands. Goku wasn't upset or angry—he was just saying, "Oh so you're a liar?"

And lastly, Goku called Frieza attempting to blow up a planet a coward's move before Frieza told him that he can survive in space. Goku thought Frieza was trying to commit suicide. And even if he wasn't, blowing a planet WAS cowardly and contemptuous,.

Agreed with Zeal on the Frieza bits. If I recall correctly, he had no issue with Frieza using his hands, he was just mocking him for breaking his own rule. It wasn't a "wah, no fair!" so much as a "gotcha!" type thing.

And as for the planet, he thought Frieza was attempting suicide. I'm pretty sure he didn't even call trying to kill himself a coward's move, but basically said "oh Frieza, you don't even have the (Dragon) balls to die by my hand."

Also, Gohan isn't The Ace. He does, however, have The Gift.

As noted, Goku commented on Recoome's prolonged move stance leaving him wide open when he interrupted his move.

I just checked the manga on Goku biting Frieza's tail to see if Frieza complains, and he doesn't. But while I was there, I noticed this bit: "Let me give you some advice. You place too much confidence in your strength, and as a result, you leave yourself wide open." Here he is giving Frieza advice on how to improve his style, just like he did to the Ginyus after punching Recoome.

Which also reminds me of that time he gave Cell a Senzu. Goku is far too cavalier about serious fights to qualify.

And while ultimately it's true that Goku was attempting Cruel Mercy with Frieza, that doesn't change the fact that there is nothing pragmatic about Cruel Mercy. A Combat Pragmatist would just shoot him.

Regarding Gohan

Gohan definitely has The Gift, but he just doesn't command enough respect and admiration from the other characters. In the Cell arc, everyone thought Goku was nuts for putting the fate of the world on Gohan's shoulders. In the Buu arc, Kaioshin was the only one shilling Gohan; Vegeta blasted him for letting his power wane and becoming too weak.

I never said anything about Frieza's sucker punch since Goku was more amused than angry since he forced Frieza to used his hands. Also, in the original and Kai dub Frieza tells Goku that he can survive in space before trying to destroy the planet. Goku was relieved that Frieza's was too much of a coward to destroy the planet outright. It should also be noted that in Resurrection F' after Frieza destroyed the Earth, all the heroes called Frieza a cowardly bastard, while Beerus called what Frieza did brilliant since he can survive in space and a good tactical move on his part.

I also don't see how I proved your point. Both the heroes and villains cry foul. When Super Buu started to absorb people, Gohan and Goku called it unfair, while Buu laughed at them. Goku is also shocked that Raditz lied to him about leaving peaceful and called it low. That's not even getting into the original Dragon Ball where Goku cried foul all the time when the villian pulled a trick to win and the aforementioned Resurrection 'F' where Frieza destroying the planet to avoid death was called unfair.

Last I checked, biting is considered low and Frieza was obviously not expecting it since he put his tail near Goku's mouth. And as I mentioned earlier, the Cell Games is the only time Goku plays by the enemies' rules and even then, he gives Cell a Senzu to play with his mind, telling Cell that he will need his full power to even have a remote chance against Gohan, so it did have a tactical purpose other than Goku trying to have a fair fight.

It also doesn't matter if Goku comments on how bad Recoome's stance is. He still attacked before Recoome could used his technique and was called dirty. Goku even apologizes for attacking earlier, saying it was just too easy, so Goku himself acknowledges Recoome's words.

The point is Goku tries to be fair, but in a fight with no rules, anything goes and any tactic is on the table. It's like Larkmark says, he zigzags depending on what's going on.

The Kais and Goku shilled Gohan during the Buu Saga.

Ramona, you don't seem to be getting it, and you seem the only one among us who isn't, so I'm going to try one more time before washing my hands of this.

1. Gohan and Gotenks are irrelevant. We're talking about Goku.
2. Frieza did say that yes, but Goku didn't understand that since he still thought Frieza tried to kill them both.
3. You are still proving my point about Dragonball: Goku may consider an advantage unfair unless it's been established that said advantage can be overcome by training or other factors. As I said before, this makes sense because it fits Japanese social mores. Japan loves overcoming through hard work. They call it Seishin. They also hate picking on a person's weaknesses if those weaknesses aren't something the person can do anything about. This is called Enryo. Thus, once it's made clear that a weakness or limitation is something that can be overcome by hard work, it is your fault if you cant keep up at that level. Hence why Goku tells the Ginyu force that their moves have openings, why he had no problem using the tail weakness after he himself trained to overcome it, and why he healed Cell.

He didn't say that in the Japanese and the Kai dub. Goku specifically said that Frieza got scared about killing himself which is why he held back. He knew good and well that Frieza planned to blow up the planet and survive because Frieza outright told him that is what he's doing.

Also, I said Goku and Gohan, where did I mention Gotenks?

No offense, but your entire post reads like a giant Values Dissonance because you're trying to tell me about Japanese's values and what they may or may not considered being a Combat Pragmatist, which isn't the point of the trope. The trope is defined as: a character who is defined by his or her willingness to do anything in a fight to win. This typically applies to "real" fights where there's actually something at stake that's more important than a cash prize, a trophy, or a title belt, and usually not professional fights in a controlled environment where safeguards are in place to prevent one side from suffering too much damage and where one can be disqualified for not abiding by the rules.

Goku apologizes to Recoome for hitting him early because he knew it was bad form, but said he couldn't help himself because he was wide opened. When he sucker punches Jeice and Jeice called it dirty, Goku said he thought he was ready and he was leaving himself opened. He also wanted rematches against Vegeta and Kid Buu because he acknowledge that they were enemies that he couldn't beat on his own and they literally ganged up on them to win, something Goku doesn't care for.

Frieza blew up the planet he was on in Resurrection 'F' and the heroes called it cowardly, while Beerus called it brilliance because Frieza took advantage of his species' ability to survive in space, and Goku and Gohan called foul on Buu absorbing people, while Buu said all fair in war.

So yes, Goku tries to be fair, but in an all out match, anything goes. Biting, sucker punches, grabbing weak spots, having your friends jump in and help you when you're losing, using them as live bait to charged your ultimate attack, is all fair game.

Again, you're just proving my point. In the Kai dub, Goku didn't call Frieza trying to destroy the planet cowardly. He called Frieza cowardly for not being willing to kill himself in the blast. Once again, Goku did not call him cowardly for simply trying to win. He called him a coward for not going all the way.

If you recall, what you said was: "[Goku] called Frieza trying to blow up the planet since he can survive in space a coward's move", which even you have now proven is false. Goku did not call Frieza a coward for the reasons stated.

The point that I, Tobias and Larkmarn are trying to get across is that it is flat out FALSE that Goku believes "anything goes" in a fight. Time and time again, he has proven that he does not believe that. Goku doesn't use poison, he doesn't sneak attack an opponent who don't know he intends to fight them ^note No, him distracting Frieza and hitting him from behind doesn't count. I said he doesn't sneak up on opponents who don't know he intends to fight them. Frieza knew that they were fighting, and he made a conscious effort to distract Frieza, and later in the series, he foregoes weapons like his staff and even help from teammates. True, early on in the series, Goku used more methods to win, but as he perfected his martial arts abilities, he gradually shed this. We've seen MANY cases of this throughout the series and extended into Super. It's self-evident, since we see it happen.

So that means, despite being willing to compromise some fair play in a fight, Goku still has rules of some kind. And furthermore, he seems to develop MORE rules as he gets older and becomes a more capable martial artist. Case in point with his tail: he once thought exploiting it was unfair, but after he learned how to overcome such a weakness, he used it himself (although still finding it a rather cheap trick). So again, Goku has a weird mix of finding SOME tactics unfair but others perfectly fine. So his pragmatism has a line drawn somewhere.

The reason I brought up Values Dissonance is to provide some context for WHERE that line is. And it seems to be this: "Exploiting a mortal weakness that can't be overcome through training or effort is unfair and cheap—I'll avoid using that if I can. But if some technique or training comes along to overcome such a weakness, then it's my opponent's fault if they still lose."

If that still isn't good enough for you, then I have nothing else to say. From here on, I'll defer to Larkmarn and Tobias as mediators in our disagreement.

No, he said Frieza chickened out of destroying the planet because he was afraid of being caught in his own blast, but he knew Frieza intended to destroy the planet and leave. Your last post said that he didn't know what Frieza was doing. He knew it wasn't a suicide move and he was thankful that Frieza couldn't go through with it and even compliments Frieza later for wanting to fight the Super Saiyan fairly since could have just sent another blast into the planet and finished the job. What I said was that Goku and the others called Frieza a coward in Resurrection 'F' because he chose to destroy the planet instead of dying with some degree of honor.

My point is that Goku doesn't always play fair, which is what the point Tobias made by using the example of the Cell Games and him refusing to fuse during his battle with Kid Buu. His point was that Goku is almost always Honor Before Reason.

I pointed out that Goku was a Combat Pragmatist when he fought Raditz because he was going to fight him with Master Roshi and Krillin before Piccolo came, and he his entire plan hinged on grabbing Raditz's tail. He even humored using the Dragon Balls to beat Raditz, but realized he had no time to collect them in just one day. It was literally a do anything to win situation and all options were on the table.

During his fight with Vegeta when he acknowledge he had lost, he shot Vegeta's eye out and had no problem using Krillin and Gohan to help him beat Vegeta using the Spirit Bomb, and then turning Gohan into a Great Ape to stomp Vegeta. Which is why he wanted to fight Vegeta again because he didn't beat Vegeta fairly.

He attacked Recoome while he's charging up and even acknowledges it was bad form, but it was just too easy. And for the record, he did the same thing against King Piccolo, except Piccolo was able to tank the hit and fire his blast.

With Kid Buu, after Goku failed to kill him alone, he had no problem using Vegeta and Fat Buu as live bait so he could charged the Spirit Bomb when before he wanted to fight Buu on-on-one. Even before the Spirit Bomb, Goku suggested to bring Gohan and Gotenks to help them fight Kid Buu when Vegeta had the Earth revived with the Dragon Balls. Which is why he wanted Kid Buu to be reborn into a good person because he didn't beat him by himself.

And since you brought it up, in Super Goku bit Beerus and Golden Frieza during their fights. He also purposely made Golden Frieza burn himself out instead of trying to out power him after he realized that Frieza had stamina issues again. I am not sure where using poison came from since almost no one in the series used it except Frost from Super. He also doesn't used his Power Pole anymore since it's connected to Kami's Lookout.

Values Dissonance is just that. That is like saying Indy, who is the page image for Combat Pragmatist, wouldn't be example if he told the person he shot, 'sorry, but your guard was down so it's your fault'. He also wouldn't fall completely under Combat Pragmatist either since, why didn't he shoot all those other goons he fought in a fist fight.

Also, you are more or less saying that Goku used to be more Combat Pragmatist and then become less so as the series goes on. So, you are basically admitting that Goku was at several points a Combat Pragmatist, but this aspect got toned down as the series went on. So even you agree to an extent that Goku is or was a Combat Pragmatist.

*sigh* Guys, do you the two of you see what I'm talking about here?

This have a simple solution, which I have been trying to point out. When writing the trope it can written as such:

• Combat Pragmatist
  • Goku is for the most part a Spirited Competitor and makes choices that are Honor Before Reason. However, he does some times make pragmatic decisions during a battle.
    • Example A: Raditz
    • Example B: Vegeta
    • Example C: Recoome and the Ginyu Force
    • Example D: Kid Buu's fight

Seriously, I don't see what the problem here is, especially since Raditz is the clear most example of Goku being a Combat Pragmatist.

The problem is that Combat Pragmatist isn't a sometimes thing. It's a characterization trope.

Specific tactics like biting, blinding, pretending to surrender, etc. aren't the point. They're popular methods for showing off the character's pragmatism, but they aren't the trope. The trope is in how the character carries himself, how he presents himself, and how he's presented to the audience.

The Combat Pragmatist does not apologize for crossing a line; to him, there are no lines to cross. He does not offer advice on how to improve his adversary's form; why would he? The Pragmatist is trying to beat that guy. He does not chastise his opponent for not fighting "fair"; he doesn't believe in fair fighting anyway.

He is defined not by a dirty trick here or there but by his ruthless, dishonorable approach and his dedication to victory at any cost.

Thinking about it, I am willing to accredit Goku for this in the Raditz fight. His behavior at that point was outside the norm for him; it's not just that he went for Raditz's tail. He also shed his weighted clothing immediately upon arrival. At this point in the series, doing so is the equivalent of Goku powering up to 100% right at the very start of a fight.

In stark contrast to his approaches to Cell, Frieza, Majin Buu, etc. Goku had no f*cks to give and was ready to just hit Raditz with whatever it takes to end the fight.

I would also say that Vegeta took this approach on Namek. Like Goku with Raditz, his behavior on Namek is very different from his presentation before and after. All of his pomp and bluster was gone and replaced by ruthless subterfuge. His ultimate goal - to obtain immortality and use it to surpass Frieza - would be considered unthinkable by the same character in any other arc. We've seen Vegeta humiliated many times, but Namek was the only time he's ever been desperate, and it's reflected in the way he fights.

Yeah, it's like I said. The story reflects Japanese mores, and it does so more and more as the characters grow more confident and powerful.

It's been a while since I've watched any Dragonball, so I won't comment on Pre-Namek Goku. But, Vegeta on Namek was characterized as a despicable person who just happened to be the biggest Thorn in Frieza's side. His methods at the time, though effective, were categorized as cowardly and dishonorable.

Later on, when he becomes more heroic, he no longer uses MOST of those methods, although he occasionally got desperate enough to try (and fail) when he was losing. Again, in contrast to Goku.

Whoa whoa whoa. When was Vegeta's methods categorized as cowardly and dishonorable? Killing the downed Ginyus are, but there's honestly no one around to judge him for the rest. And considering that he's doing pretty much the same thing the heroes are doing, just more effectively... I really don't think his subterfuge and sneaking around are characterized as negative.

I mean, yes, he's still despicable. But his methods aren't really, other than the Ginyu executions.

As I mentioned before, it's implied.

Remember, this is a conversation about Goku, not Gohan or Krillin^note Remember, Krillin has always been characterized as a coward and Gohan does not have a warrior's spirit.. Goku is The Hero and is essentially the story's ideal. Vegeta, throughout all of Namek, is trying to avoid dealing with ANY villain whom he knows is stronger than he is. The only time Vegeta agrees to an open fight at any time on Namek is when he thinks he's comparatively stronger. When he knows he's outmatched (such as with the Ginyus and Frieza), he either tries to run away or does whatever it takes to avoid battle. And it didn't work—he still winds up having to fight the battles he tried to run from.

Compare this to Goku. The moment Goku finds out about Frieza, he wants to fight him, no matter how much stronger Frieza is. When Vegeta realizes that he can't beat Ginyu, he tries to grab the Dragonballs and run. When he can't do that, he tries to destroy them. When Frieza transforms and reveals that he outclasses him in power, Vegeta first tries to run away (in Frieza's second form) and later has an emotional breakdown when Frieza (in his final form) beats his trump card.

Again, compare this to Goku. When Goku realizes Frieza is stronger than he is, Goku starts fighting harder, even though it's futile. When Frieza beats his trump card (the Spirit Bomb), Goku is still trying to fight.

My point: the Namek saga repeatedly implies that Vegeta's major failing is his own cowardice and reliance on trickery and deception. In the end, all his trickery and deception didn't avail him—it only delayed the inevitable. No matter what he did, how hard he tried and fought, Goku's actions surpassed him. Even without the Kaioken, Goku's more "valorous" approach granted him greater leaps in power than Vegeta's more pragmatic and cowardly approach.

On Namek, Vegeta launches sneak attacks on Zarbon, Dodoria, and Guldo. He lightswitches from intending to murder Krillin and Gohan to recruiting them when he realizes the Ginyus are coming, to which his A Plan is to use immortality to cheat his way past his inferior Battle Power. He abandons Goku to fight Jeice and Burter alone and tries to quit the field when Frieza takes on his Second Form.

He even lets Krillin shoot a hole in his chest to abuse his racial power-up ability; to date, he's the only Saiyan character to deliberately self-injure in order to trigger his zenkai. Goku and Cell have triggered zenkais from self-injury, but Goku was just training and didn't know what he was doing while Cell benefitted from fortuitous circumstance. Only Namek Vegeta has ever spammed a zenkai on purpose.

In any other arc, Vegeta constantly showboats, insists on using his own strength to surpass his enemies, and his fighting style consists of using overwhelming blunt force. But on Namek, Vegeta consistently employs underhanded tactics and actively tries to cheat his way to victory. Whatever it takes to win.

To be fair, he abandons Goku not because he was afraid of Jeice and Burter (he was definitely stronger by then), but because he now had an opportunity to get the Dragonballs while Frieza was distracted. Which, by the way, he planned to implement by waiting for Gohan and Krillin to summon the dragon for him and then kill them so that he could make his wish unimpeded.

EDIT: Also, I just noticed a problem with this:

Not true. Goku powered up to Kaioken x10 (at the time his max) against Frieza right away. Him doubling that to x20 later wasn't because he'd been holding back—it was because that move is dangerous and he wasn't prepared for just how bad Frieza outclassed him.

That aside, I don't consider "I'm going to use my full strength right way" to be Combat Pragmatism. It's the same as Goku ever does: he meets force with a roughly equal level of force. Raditz had already proven he was way stronger, and he felt Frieza's power in the rejuvenation tank. If Goku had been stronger than Frieza at the time, he would have cut some of that power back, like he did against the Ginyus. (He only showed his full power to the Captain upon request.)

Tobias, the thing is the page image itself, Indiana Jones, is considered pragmatic, but he none of those things you call some combat pragmatic. He shoot one goon where he fought everyone else in a fist fight. In fact, he barely uses his gun or guns which would save him a lot of trouble.

Heck, Batman has an entry and he's one of the most honor bound heroes in existence. He refuses to use guns, doesn't kill people like the Joker, and fights people using his fists most of the time where he can use knock out gas or many of the other stolen tech he has on hand.

Having restraint is not the same thing as not being pragmatic. And even if it were, Goku is on an entirely different level.

Indy and Batman don't fight to give their opponents a sporting chance. They don't fight to test their power or abilities. Any restraint on their part is to avoid collateral damage or bigger problems.

Since we don't seem to be getting anywhere largely due to a disagreement over what the trope even means, I've taken the liberty of bringing it up at ATT here.

I write what I wrote on the trope page:

• King Kai in the Saiyan and Frieza Sagas. He shares it with Kami in the Saiyan (before he died) and Cell Sagas before he re-merged with Piccolo. He is Goku's master who trains him and teaches him the Kaio-Ken and the Spirit Bomb, techniques that gives Goku even a remote chance against Vegeta and Frieza. He is also the one who locates Namek after Krillin talks about using their Dragon Balls to revived their falling friends, tells them who Frieza is, creates the plan that saves the Namekians from extinction after Frieza's genocide using the Earth's Dragon Balls along with a loophole in the Dragon Ball rules and gets everyone but Goku and Frieza off of Namek before it explodes using the revived Namek Dragon Balls, which also allowed the other dead Z-Fighters to be revive, locates New Namek so Goku can find a new Guardian of the Earth to restore the Earth Dragon Balls after Kami merged with Piccolo, and (rather unwillingly) gives his life to help stop Cell since Goku teleports Cell to his planet when Cell was about to self-destruct and destroy the Earth. He also gives Goku the means to communicate with Gohan from beyond the grave during his final showdown against Cell, helping to save the Earth again.
• Supreme Kai in the first half of the Buu Saga, then Old Kai in the second half. The Supreme Kai is the one who tells the heroes about Majin Buu and Babidi, and takes Gohan to the World of the Kais to train him to fight Buu after he's awakened. Him merging with Kibito gives him the ability to teleport that allowed him to save Goku and Vegeta from Kid Buu when he destroys the Earth and gets everyone to New Namek to use their Dragon Ball. After Gohan accidentally breaks the Z-Swords, Old Kai takes over this role since he unlocks Gohan hidden power, making him stronger than Super Buu. After Buu absorbs Gotenks and Piccolo, becoming stronger than Gohan, he revives Goku by given his own life and gives Goku the means to merge with another person without the Fusion Dance.

Also 'likely calling all the shots in the organization and is normally the highest ranking or the absolute most powerful.'

Calling the shots is not a requirement, it just this is likely what they do and the Kais are the highest ranking beings in the universe.

My take on Big Good, in regards to DBZ are as thus:

• Goku is the Big Good of Saiyan Saga.
• Guru is the Big Good of the Frieza Saga until his death.
• Future Bulma and Goku are the co-Big Goods of the Android Saga.
• Old Kai is the Big Good of the Buu Saga.

Each of these characters pretty much epitomize the goals and/or values of the given arc. Goku is the Big Good of the Saiyan Saga because bringing him back to life is the immediate goal of the arc, and even when he loses, he gives the heroes the tools to win.

Guru, IMO, is a given.

Goku is one Big Good of the Cell Saga for the reasons Tobias stated before. Likewise, so is Future Bulma because she is LITERALLY the cause of this arc, the one who made it possible, and the one who sent Trunks.

Old Kai is the Big Good of the Buu Saga because he's the only asshole who has a fucking clue what he's doing. If any of the Z-characters had listened to him, they would have beaten Buu with zero problems.

I don't see Goku as the Big Good in the Saiyan Saga since he took no role of leadership. Kami is the one who took Goku's body and told him about King Kai. Then King Kai trained him, told him about the Saiyans, taught him two of his key techniques, communicate with the others to revive him, and then later told everyone about Namek and the Namekians and how to reach the planet. Goku is the most powerful warrior, but it was King Kai and his guidance and training that got him there.

Gura, I do agree, and I think he shares this King Kai since they created the plan that utterly screwed Frieza over.

Future Bulma….not sure about that one. She is the main reason why the plot happen, but she didn't guide anyone.

I do somewhat agree about your point with Old Kai, but he was hardly the only one with common sense.

A Big Good doesn't have to be a "guide" in that sense. The part I like to focus on in the official description is that they are the "counterparts of the forces of evil". The Big Good may not be directly able to oppose the bad guys, but they are the biggest reason the bad guys haven't won yet. That's why Bulma counts—because she is the reason the Androids lose.

I might agree with Kami and Kai sharing the role in the Saiyan Saga, though.

I still don't know about Goku during the Big Good Saiyan Saga. He's more like the hero's strongest weapon who is used by the other Big Goods to defeat the Saiyans. I can see him ascending once Kami is killed, maybe.

Future Bulma, I see where you are coming from and I do agree somewhat. My problem with her is that is more of a plot device than an actual character since she never interacted with the main heroes or planned anything with them.

Goku is at least the Big Good for the Saiyan, Namek, and Android/Cell Arcs. Those arcs are pretty much centered around "Goku is the only one who can do this, he will fight back the forces of evil."

The Big Good is the Good Counterpart to the Big Bad. In some works, they can have a Big Good who isn't The Hero or isn't the strongest fighter. But DBZ ain't it. The Big Bad in those arcs are the biggest, baddest warriors. Their counterpart is going to have to be the biggest, goodest hero. And even when Goku isn't directly involved in the plot, he winds up being the ideal that the other heroes strive to reach. Or if they're in trouble, they don't say "King Kai will save the day" they think "Goku will save the day!"

The main problem I have with Goku being considered a "Big Good" is that Goku is inconsistent in every aspect that makes one a Big Good. Goku is usually the strongest hero with the power to defeat the bad guy, but sometimes he isn't. Goku almost always trains someone else to be the hero if he can't do it, but that can also fail.

Even if we compare a similar character, like Superman or Captain America. Even when they aren't the strongest hero or the leader, they still have the reputation of being The Paragon and the person trusted to lead by example. When things are going bad, the heroes know they can turn to Superman or Cap for inspiration or to fill them with hope.

Again, that ain't Goku. For example, when Goku flat out tells everybody he can't beat Cell, he does it with such detached indifference that everyone is shocked. At best, Goku showing up just means "Oh thank God, we might not die now".

Which is... a considerably better response than anyone else warrants. Hope is relative, here. "Oh thank God, we might not die now" is pretty damn hopeful compared to how everyone was before Goku showed up.

Let's take the Android saga as an example. Trunks went back in time specifically to keep Goku alive. Without him it all falls apart. Now obviously the fact Goku was the strongest at the time is important, but it was clearly more than just that. Goku's the one he relayed the message to. Goku's the one he entrusted to take care of everything. And why did he know to do that? Because Bulma knew from past experience Goku's role.

That first point is true to an extent, but you could say the same thing about when the Hulk shows up against any villain of appropriate power.

Also, the example you're looking at has a few problems:

1. It was based on Bulma's opinion that Goku was the deciding factor.
2. Trunks's (possibly mistaken) decision to tell no one but Goku is immediately overridden by Piccolo.
3. It's a good thing Piccolo DID, because Goku was mostly ineffectual against the very things she was hoping he'd defeat (any of the Androids). Piccolo's decision to warn everyone else about the Androids is what prevented the bad guys from winning from jump.
4. It was only a series of really poor decisions (the Android deciding to drive to Goku, Krillin deciding to destroy the shutdown remote, Vegeta deciding to let Cell transform) that created a need for Goku to step up.

Future Bulma might have felt that Goku's death prior to the appearance of the Androids may have made a difference, but absolutely none of what follows backs up that assumption

The issue with Kaio-sama is that his involvement is entirely dependent on Goku. He rarely contacts anyone else and he doesn't seem to have taught Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Piccolo, or Chiaotzu much outside that one Ginyu filler arc.

He only became involved because Goku actively sought him out to learn from him in the Saiyan arc and he only stayed involved as a tool to help Goku. He was insistent that nobody get involved with Frieza at all. He's conspicuously missing from Trunks's timeline; Gohan isn't being guided by him, nobody's being told how to get to New Namek and use their Dragon Balls, Trunks never even finds out he exists. It's as though he promptly stopped giving any shits about Earth after Goku died.

This makes sense because he never gave very many shits about Earth to begin with. He's just here for Goku; yet another character pulled into orbit around the Magnetic Hero.

But he is still the overall guardian of the Northern Quardian and was guiding and teaching Goku.

Seems to me like this is a case where all of us have valid points, but we're arguing over three various "sub-types" of a Big Good:

• Champion Good: The sub-type of Big Good who is trusted to defeat whatever evil is plaguing the story.
• Authoritative Good: The sub-type of Big Good who leads, controls or directs the most organized or determined force of good, whether or not their "subordinates" are aware of it.
• Torch-lighter Good: The sub-type of Big Good who lit the last-remaining flame of hope, usually by creating, training or preserving something or someone which can stave off the evil, but they are unable to use it themselves for whatever reason.

A character like Optimus Prime can be all three of these things, while in a story like DBZ, it can be spread out amongst multiple characters, with some briefly carrying double or triple duty.

Only because Goku sought him out. Being "Guardian of the Northern Quadrant" amounts to absolutely nothing and never comes up for any purpose beyond comparing students with the other Kaios. Goku has all of the agency in their relationship. Goku acts, Kaio follows. Goku asks, Kaio answers. Goku requests, Kaio acquiesces. Goku kills Kaio-sama and he still sticks around for the next seven years helping Goku train in the afterlife.

The only time Kaio-sama ever acts on his own initiative is when enacting the plan to get everyone off of Namek. Even then, it's implied that he's doing it because of Goku's Honor Before Reason decision to let Frieza finish powering up - which Kaio-sama was actively lamenting when the idea suddenly hit him. It's an attempt to get Goku out of what he's been saying for the entire arc is an unwinnable battle and it still winds up overruled by Goku's refusal to leave with everyone else on Namek. Between Kaio-sama and Goku, Goku holds all the cards.

Now, all this discussion has got me thinking about God and I can agree to him being considered Big Good of the Saiyan arc. He brought the humans to his Lookout to train, he sent Goku to Kaio-sama's, and he monitored Piccolo's training of Gohan. Nearly every part of the resistance against the Saiyans was made possible by God's agency.

I can vaguely get behind Kami as the Big Good of the Saiyan Arc. But Namek and Android are pure Goku.

Also, note that there is the difference between the Big Good of a story and the Big Good of a work. The Kais may be the Big Good of the setting as a whole (or at least "Big Good Wannabe", but you wouldn't say they're a Big Good of an arc where they weren't involved.

I can agree with Kami (God). But Guru and King Kai (Kaio-sama) are my pics for Namek and Future Bulma is my pic for Androids.

I can kinda sorta see Goku for the latter if I squint, but only in the latter half, where he introduces everyone else to the Room of Spirit and Time and mentors Gohan to act as champion. And like I said, his plan would have been totally unnecessary if the stuff leading up to it wasn't an Idiot Plot.

Future Bulma was, in my estimation, the real hero of the first half of Androids.

I can back Future Bulma. The Android arc would literally not have been possible without her and Goku spends nearly the entire first half paralyzed by a heart virus. Splitting the halves, I would say Future Bulma is the Big Good of the Android arc while Goku is the Big Good of the Cell arc.

My objection with Guru is the same objection I have with Kaio-sama; he's a tool. His main contributions are that he made the Dragon Balls and that he can awaken people's hidden power. It's important to the plot that he exists, but he has very little agency over Krillin, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku's battle with Frieza and his forces.

Not really. He's actively invested in helping the Earthlings defeat Frieza. He's the one who gives the heroes the Dragonball that delays Vegeta and Frieza from getting all of them.

He's also the one who tells Dende the password and sends him to the heroes just as Frieza figures this out.

That Dragon Ball doesn't delay anything. Vegeta sees Krillin flying back with it, follows him, and forces him to hand it over. The Ball Vegeta got from murdering a Namekian village is the one that delays Frieza and Vegeta; Gohan swipes it while Vegeta's busy taking Guru's One-Star Ball from Krillin. It would actually have been safer with Guru because then it would be protected from Vegeta by Nail's 42,000 battle power.

He does give Dende the password but, like Kaio-sama coming up with the wish, it's a small drop in a very large pond. He did a couple of useful things but that was the extent of his involvement.

The big thing that gets me about Guru is that he isn't really on the same side as Krillin and Gohan. It's just that their goals align. Guru wants Frieza to not exterminate his people or become immortal. Krillin and Gohan want to use the Dragon Balls to revive their friends. Vegeta wants to use the Dragon Balls to become immortal and/or get out from under Frieza's thumb. Alliances are formed because these goals complement each other.

Even if King Kai only got involved because of Goku, the fact of the matter is he was the guiding force in many areas. He's Goku's teacher who gave him the tools to succeed like Master Roshi before him. He tells the others where Namek is, tells them about Frieza, and it's his plan that saves everyone butts on Namek using the two sets of Dragon Balls. In-story, he is treated as mission control.

Mission Control, sure, but that's not synonymous with Big Good. He told them about Frieza while repeatedly insisting that under no circumstances were they ever to fight him, a stance he remained insistent about even as they were fighting him. Frieza was defeated in spite of him rather than because of him; if Kaio-sama had his way, Frieza would remain unopposed and threatening the galaxy with his PTO.

What Kame-sennin gave Goku was a sense of purpose and a philosophy that guided him for the rest of his life. What Kaio-sama gave him was a couple cool techniques and a means of telepathically communicating with his allies. He's a utility, not a leader - and as Trunks's timeline demonstrates, that utility dies with Goku.

I can back Future Bulma. The Android arc would literally not have been possible without her

That's a faulty yardstick, though. She send Trunks on his way to start the process, but after that, she's done. By that definition the same would be true of Trunks, of Vegeta, of Goku, of so many characters. If she were more involved, I might agree. If she were calling the shots, supporting from the future, doing anything past "building the time machine" I'd agree. But saying she's the Big Good of the Android arc because she made it possible is like saying Dr. Briefs is the Big Good of the Namek arc. He built Goku's spaceship, gave it 100x gravity. If it weren't for him, Goku could've never gotten to Namek.

That is because they literally had no chance against Frieza. The only reason why they won is because Goku pulled a power up out of his butt even then it was a close fight. Why would he tell them to fight Frieza to save the universe if he knows it will only end in their deaths. If anything, this only reenforce why he is the Big Good since he was the only one, besides Vegeta, who took Frieza as the serious threat that he was. It's no different that Yoda telling Luke to stay away from Darth Vader because he will get his ass kicked.

A big good does not need to be involved. They are simply the most important reason that evil can be fought. Bulma literally gave them ALL the hope. Without her, History of Trunks would have been the end of DBZ.

Which is perfectly pragmatic but not Good.

His perspective is basically, "There is a tremendous evil threatening the galaxy. It can't be beaten. Never try. Don't even consider it. Run, hide, do whatever you need to do to avoid drawing its ire. Evil cannot be thwarted, it cannot be defeated, and you have no hope."

That's not really how a Big Good acts. Even the page quote perfectly illustrates why Kaio-sama doesn't count.

"A leader is a dealer in hope." Kaio-sama spends the entire arc doing the opposite.

With Future Bulma, everything that occurs in the Android arc is a direct consequence of her agency. She may not get much screentime but she's the prime mover in preventing the Androids from killing all of Earth's defenders and destroying the world. Trunks is her agent acting upon the plot, Goku is her goal, and the battle with 19 and 20 is the fruit of her labor.

He never said 'never try', let's not put words in King Kai's mouth.

He said, 'You stand no chance. Grad your friends, abandon the Dragon Balls, and run because if you don't this guy will kill you, and then kill everyone you love'. This isn't being pragmatic, it's call common sense and trying to protect not only Goku but the entire Earth since Frieza will kill everyone there once he's done with Namek. And he was right. Goku and the others stood no chance against Frieza even after he trained and got a major power-up from healing. The only reason why King Kai comes off as anything but good is because he's in a Shonen where stuff like eleven hour super-power can happen.

The whole bit you wrote isn't any that King Kai said or even implied. Given hope is one thing. Leading your team into a situation that they can't win is not only stupid, but would make King Kai an asshole.

Good and common sense don't always get along. A farm boy doesn't have the slightest hope of defeating an evil empire but he fights anyway. A student wizard who hasn't even finished his education could never defeat the greatest Dark Wizard of all time but he fights anyway. Ten-year-old monkey boy against an evil demon king who's taken over the world and killed his mentor? Not a chance, it's foolish to try, but he fights anyway.

Good does not hide under a rock and wait for Evil to go away. Good makes a stand even if it's a suicidal one and finds a way to win. A character who is actively saying, "DO NOT oppose the Big Bad" can't be the Big Good because they are missing the key component: embodying Good.

I don't agree with that technically, Tobias.

At the time he said that, the goal was still to get in, wish Piccolo and the others back, and get the hell out. That was the good guys' objective.

Not wanting them to fight Frieza was a pragmatic choice, and nothing says a good guy can't be pragmatic.

That farm boy story doesn't work for several reasons.

There is a different between defending your home and country from evil even if you know it's hopeless, like the Z-Fighters fighting the Saiyans and the androids, to avoiding angering a guy who will kill everyone you know and love if you pissed him off.

They didn't need to fight Frieza and, to be blunt, none of the Z-Fighters were fighting to save the universe. They came to Namek for purely selfish reasons, to wish back their dead friends. If they were going to Namek to fight evil and bring down an evil tyrant, you would have a point. And even when they confronted Frieza, no one was thinking about the good of the universe. They were just trying to survive. If they could have left Namek without touching Frieza, all the characters would have done it.

Standing up to evil no matter what is noble, but in the situation with Frieza no one was thinking that heroically, unlike the examples you use.

I've opened a thread on ATT here since it doesn't appear that we're going to be able to reach a decision. In the meantime, I propose a vote to determine who we can conclusively agree by majority should be listed and see if we can knock off at least some of the points, since I think we kinda got lost on a few different candidates over the course of the discussion.

Forgive me if I forget someone who should be on the list. As things stand, here's my vote:

Saiyan Saga

• God/Kami: Yes
• Goku: No

Frieza Saga

• Kaio-sama/King Kai: No
• Guru: No
• Goku: Yes

Cell Saga

• Future Bulma: Yes for Android half.
• Goku: Yes for Cell half.

Buu Saga

• Kaioshin/Supreme Kai: No.
• Old Kaioshin/Old Kai: No.
• Goku: Yes.

• Saiyan Saga: I can go with Kami. He is Earth's Guardian and he does arrange the training of both Goku and the rest of the Z Fighters on the Lookout. I still lean towards Goku, but I can compromise.

• Frieza: Aaaaaaand here I cannot. This is Goku. Guru is the Big Good of the Nameks, the King Kai may be the Big Good of the quadrant but for this story, Goku is the Big Good. As pointed out before, King Kai was trying to get Goku to do less good. And as much as Frieza wasn't a threat to the universe at the moment, there's no denying that he was bad. The PTO wasn't just off minding its business while being led by a jerkass. Their business was genocide.

Android Saga: Serious question... who is the Big Bad of the saga, here? Dr. Gero? If so, I can sort of see Future Bulma as she is the Good Counterpart to Gero (inventor, not terribly involved in the plot other than setting things into motion, etc).

Cell Saga: Goku. Especially since what he's doing is training Gohan to be the actual strongest fighter. Gohan can't qualify because he spends the whole arc thinking "someone else will do it." Goku is the one basically organizing Earth's defense.

Yes, Dr. Gero is the Big Bad of the Android arc. The entire conflict exists because he created the Androids to kill Goku. Much of the subsequent conflict then stems from the Androids attempting to kill Goku due to the fact that, despite 17 and 18 being free-willed and 17 actually killing Gero, 16 is programmed to kill Goku.

The arc is basically a game of keepaway with everyone trying to protect the incapacitated Goku from Gero's assorted murderbots. The conflict only changes scope with the arrival of Cell who steals the narrative focus due to the following traits:

• Is an abandoned project of Gero's and was never intended to be completed.
• Functions as an Evil Counterpart to Trunks.
• Doesn't really care that much about killing Son Goku.

When 17 kills 20, the Androids continue fulfilling Gero's purpose, but when Cell arrives, he basically takes the spotlight and goes, "It's all about me, now!"

Discussing the trope in the ATT has gotten me thinking about the Trope Decay it's undergone. The Big Good is not meant to be the heroic counterpart to the Big Bad. It's meant as the heroic counterpart to the Greater-Scope Villain, formerly named Bigger Bad. It's a Greater Scope Hero, a force of good who exists at a level beyond that of The Hero.

The Big Good generally doesn't receive narrative focus and sits at a position of authority above the characters that do. He won't usually be directly involved in opposing the Big Bad. When he is, it probably won't be final and it might actually get him killed, because he is bigger and more important and more heroic than The Hero, but it's not his story.

For this reason, I still support God and Future Bulma for the concept of Greater Scope Hero, but I can't back Goku on Namek. I do think Goku shifts into the role for the Cell Games and most of the Buu Saga before being dragged back into narrative focus, though.

A bit of nitpicking here.

Dr. Gero is NOT the Big Bad of the Android Saga. He's the Big Bad Wannabe. Yes, he created the Androids, but the moment they were activated, they were out of his hands. Cell never even met the guy, in either timeline.

For reasons stated, though, Future Bulma is still the Big Good.

Huh, I thought I replied.

Aaaaaaaaanyhoo. Yes, given the discussion on ATT I firmly say Kami is the Big Good of the Saiyan Saga (gets Goku to train with King Kai, gets the rest of the Z Fighters Trained, still Earth's Guardian, etc).

I still say Goku for Namek. Especially because the vast majority of the arc is spent focused not on him, but on Krillin and Gohan. They're the main doers there, with Goku being a combination of The Cavalry and the Big Good. He eventually slides into The Hero when he finally faces Frieza, but for most of the arc it's about Gohan and Krillin. King Kai, like I said, is the Big Good for the setting but really not for the arc itself. Ditto Guru. He's more of a Hero of Another Story. I'd rather say the arc didn't have an overall Big Good than claim either of them as it.

I can now get behind Future Bulma for the Android Arc. Still on Goku for the Cell Arc, though. He's the one organizing Earth's defense and emphatically not trying to be the one to defeat Cell, rather organize the rise of the one to beat him.

See, when I think of a Big Good doubling as The Cavalry, I think of a situation where the arrival of the cavalry automatically solves whatever the major problem at hand is.

That would only apply to Goku, in my opinion, if the Ginyu Force were the ultimate bad guys. When Goku shows up, he may save the heroes from whatever they're currently fighting, but he now has to struggle along with them. Goku can't be a Big Good at any point of his "downtime", because he literally didn't do anything to help. Sure, everyone's trying to hold out until he gets there, but Goku isn't off somewhere else making sure the good guys get necessary support and resources.

During his downtime, Goku isn't the Sorceress watching over He-Man and providing valuable guidance. He isn't Optimus Prime giving them inspiring speeches or leadership. He isn't the God of Good waiting until his name is invoked for the Holy Hand Grenade. His downtime during Namek is either him healing or training...or healing and THEN training.

I can get behind the idea that there just isn't a Big Good on Namek. There are a lot of "X character MIGHT count BUT...." options but nobody who really stands out as the definitive Greater Scope Hero. The forces of Good basically spent that entire arc scrambling around in desperation, only to be saved at the eleventh hour by what was basically pure chance.

I think we've mostly all come to an agreement on the matters of God, Future Bulma, and Cell-era Goku. Am I right?

EDIT: Also, "We've mostly all come to an agreement on the matter of God." A Rare Sentence.

It's been awhile since I've been down here. Buu Saga Goku should be added since he was the guiding force that taught Goten and Trunks the Fusion Dance and used this excuse as to why he shouldn't be the one to kill Buu.

As still say King Kai is the Big Good of the Namek Saga, but I am willing to drop it since no else can really agree.

In this case, Goku's role is reversed. He's the Big Good of the Buu Saga until he comes back to life. At which point, there is no Big Good anymore, because everybody had to pitch in against Buu lest they all get dead.

Hmm...

He does sort of yank the reins out of Kaioshin's hands.

• He only kills Yakon, a relatively harmless foe compared to Gohan's more narratively climactic fight with Dabura.
• He argues with Kaioshin and Vegeta in favor of letting Gohan keep his fight with Dabura instead of having himself or Vegeta tap in.
• He rises to Majin Vegeta's challenge, resulting in Buu awakening.
• He teaches Goten and Trunks the Fusion Dance and inadvertently teaches them how to become Super Saiyan 3 as well.
• He persuades Majin Buu to kill Babidi.
• His assistance with Gohan's Zeta Sword training results in the sword breaking and Old Kaioshin being released.
• He bribes Old Kaioshin to unlock Gohan's power.

Up until Old Kaioshin sacrifices himself to resurrect Goku, Goku is very important and would definitely qualify as the cornerstone of his side, but not in a direct fashion as The Hero. In fact, it's debatable if he ever really becomes the main character again in the arc; his attempt to kill Majin Buu on his own fails and he spends the climax as an instrument to carry out Vegeta's plan.

In the climax, Goku is a glorified battery, used to build up the Genki-Dama. He's basically Sailor Moon at this point, important not for being the ultimate hero who can best their foe with his superior fighting talent, but for that one killing blow he can deliver once the rest of the team has worn down the enemy.

I think it works.

The Piccolo arc featured the deaths of three characters - one in cold blood - and the systemic massacre of several more fun characters that had been highlighted in the previous two Tournament Arcs. The villain gets placed directly alongside Pilaf briefly in order to showcase how much more evil he is, then goes on to beat Goku half to death, murder Shenron to ensure that the dead protagonists can never come back, take over the world, and announce his plans for global genocide.

Piccolo's arc is extremely dark in a way that had never before been seen in the series. That darkness remains in the final Tournament Arc, where Piccolo openly flaunts the tournament's rules, blows up the stadium, and attempts to murder Goku.

Raditz, if anything, is actually a more light-hearted villain than Piccolo was. He just wanted his brother to show some racial solidarity by killing 100 people before they leave Earth to go rejoin their comrades; Piccolo wanted to subject the world to 41 years of terror and chaos before systematically slaughtering everyone For the Evulz.

Actually, Raditz told Goku to kill 100 humans to show him loyalty to the Saiyans. When Master Roshi protested, Raditz says that it makes little different since they were going to wipe the entire planet and sell it. Which was why Piccolo joined forces with Goku since he can't rule the world if everyone dead. Krillin even says the Saiyans are worst than Piccolo. The Saiyan Saga also killed more characters, including Kami, rendering the Dragon Balls inert forever, which is worst than King Piccolo who only killed Shenron.

Alright, Tobias. I changed my mind. Mostly because even Wikipedia and the DB wiki agrees with you.

I agree with Ramona in that the Saiyan Saga had arguably worse consequences (Goku dies off the bat and didn't even stand a chance agajnst Raditz) but the question isn't which tone was darker—it's which one started it.

So based on that, I concede the point.

For note, you shouldn't use DB wiki as a reliable source outside of attack or character names.

If you want to use Cerebus Syndrome for Z, since it is a different anime and not one thing like the manga, I would say probably the Frieza Saga fits better since you actually witnessed a live genocide, torture, and it was so dark in places that fans in Japan actually protested (namely the part where Frieza's men attack the Namekian village where Denda lived) .

DB wiki is a wiki like this one, except even MORE dedicated. My point is that they also agree that the Piccolo Saga started the more serious tone. It's just another opinion to consider, so chill.

Again, let me restate:

This is not a question of which was worst. It's a question of which was first.

Dragon Ball wiki is infamously unreliable and isn't quality control like this site. But that I am not going go into all the details here since it is in bad taste to bash another wiki.

All I said is that if you going to make a Cerebus Syndrome argument it should be base on the anime of Z since Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z are two different shows in the anime and not one big story like the manga.

Okay...that trope description is a mess, so I'm gonna chalk this one up to semantics.

The main problem is that the description drolls on and on about what this sort of character MIGHT do, or what they MIGHT look like that it never states what it IS. It INcludes a lot of traits and EXcludes very few. The description was clearly written from before the site started to get serious about Trope Decay.

As such, my vote is "Yes, they qualify...but only because the description casts the widest net ever."

Frieza is called the Empire of Evil by his minions and he brags about all the evil he has done, even outright calling himself a villain. Doesn't get more card-carrying than that.

Cell admits to being evil like Frieza after he survives his own self-destruct (at least in the Japanese anime) and he talks in length about how he's going to hunt down and kill everyone on Earth one by one just so he can see the horrified looks on their faces as they died, if he wins the Cell Games. By his final showdown with Gohan, he calls himself the universe's end.

Vegeta mostly falls into this during the English dub, like him saying how being a good villain is an art when he purposely stomped on Goku's chest after Goku and Gohan had a touching moment. He also said he turned Super Saiyan because he had a heart of pure evil.

Buu, only Super Buu falls into this. Fat Buu doesn't know he's doing evil and Kid Buu is just insane and the embodiment of chaos. Super Buu is fully aware that he's an evil bastard, and embraces it. There is a reason why he got a page on Complete Monster.

I would also nominate Babidi, since he not only openly talks about being evil, he controls people with evil hearts before gleeful disposes of them.

Alright, this is good. Ramona, I'm going to be using a lot of your post for the writeup while I sweep away the ZCE, since it hits the pertinent points; specifically, that the villain actually self-identifies as evil.

Frieza is just plain Unskilled, but Strong. I need some time to mull over the others.

If I understand the description, a Brilliant, but Lazy character is someone who has the ability to contribute greatly to solving a major problem or concern but would rather do absolutely nothing of worth.

• Gohan isn't Brilliant, but Lazy. He doesn't like to fight, and thus he doesn't train. He will try to help whenever trouble shows up, but due to the nature of the series, any trouble that shows up is way stronger than the previous.
• Goku isn't Brilliant, but Lazy either. Any trouble that appears, he's immediately on the front lines, ready to fight. He doesn't care about anything OTHER than fighting or training, but the trope requires that there be a problem he's suited to handling but doesn't.
• Same with Vegeta.
• I agree with Larkmarn on Frieza.

Goku and Vegeta are brilliant, but lazy because despite all their skills they won't work to support his families, somethings Chi-Chi gets on him about. They do have skill set to get a job.

Vegeta out right called Gohan Brilliant, but Lazy in the Buu Saga.

Frieza falls on the lazy side because he sat on his butt as his army was killed and took almost no action until most of them were dead. Part of the trope is that there is a problem that can be fixed by a person, yet they're too lazy to act, which describes Frieza perfectly in the Namek Saga.

That isn't this trope, though. The trope is when a problem or issue comes along that the character is well suited to solve but they refuse to do anything.

Goku and Vegeta are warriors, and neither of them, Vegeta especially, have had any training or upbringing to prepare them for non-warrior life.

Chi-Chi and Bulma being nagging wives is just the story using them as nagging wives.

And Vegeta is hardly someone whose opinion counts.

Actually, it is a real problem for Chi-Chi because the family is broke and they don't haven anymore money to take from her father. Chi-Chi talks about this a lot. And Goku does have many skills that he's suited to do like being a lumberjack or farming like he does in Dragon Ball Super. Just dismissing Chi-Chi as nagging when they have real money issues doesn't seem right.

Vegeta has the same skill set as Goku, he's just no a people's person.

That's a problem for Chi-Chi and no one else. Goku, Gohan and Ox-King don't seem to care too much about how the family is doing financially. Chi-Chi is the only one who cares. And even then, she's stereotyped as Ms. Red Ink.

Besides that, the show isn't about the microeconomics of the Son family. It's about martial arts and violence, so those problems are the ones that count. And those problems are ones that none of the aforementioned characters ignore.

Despite Chi-Chi's nagging, the financial status of the Son household is never actually a conflict. There's never an arc about how Gohan has to go to a crappier school because they can't afford the good ones, or how they need to sell the family home and move to a low-income tenement, etc. etc.

Goku only has to get a job when Super rolls around and even that doesn't last more than an episode until Mr. Satan gives him a huge load of cash, which Chi-Chi burns through immediately.

Nagging at Goku may be a character trait for Chi-Chi but it's never actually depicted as a serious conflict that needs to be solved.

EDIT: For the sake of avoiding yet another Discussion thread when we still have a few unresolved ones pending a final agreement, I'm going to just add to this one.

Let's talk about Broken Ace.

Does Vegeta receive enough shilling and admiration from other characters to qualify him as The Ace, a status that is a required prerequisite for Broken Ace? He sits above Nappa and Raditz but they don't actually talk much about him. Frieza's forces spend the entire Namek arc talking shit at him. The only person who really shills Vegeta as the ultimate insurmountable force is Vegeta himself.

I'm torn on this one.

Vegeta is introduced to the series as The Real Deal™. He's vaunted as the Prince of All Saiyans (granted there's only three of them left at that time, but the Saiyans were likewise considered to be an entire race of Real Deals™). At the time we meet him, there's no indication that Vegeta has any immediate troubles or concerns or is, in fact, just a Normal Fish in a Tiny Pond.

The Namek/Frieza arc slowly chips away at that to reveal what a mess Vegeta is due to A) the psychopathic nature of his race, B) the genocide of said race, C) the humiliation he suffers under Frieza, D) his own pride and ego.

On the other hand, he doesn't seem to fit the spirit of the trope, from what I get from the description. Sure, Vegeta is presented in this manner to the audience, but no characters see him as their Broken Ace.

So I could really go either way on this.

I'd say yes, because while Frieza's men still talk shit about him, Krillin and Gohan are scared pantsless of him. Vegeta is basically their yardstick, and they compare everyone to him ("Oh no! This new power is even stronger than Vegeta, who is an insurmountable force!"). He's always at the top of the power ratings as far as the viewpoint characters go. And they don't really get to see his broken-ness until after they see him as someone they will basically never catch up to. It should count, in my opinion.

Alright. Counting Ramona, that's 2.5 votes for Yes and 1.5 for No. Since I'm the only person who's actively against, I'm willing to call that a decision on Broken Ace.

I say yes. First, Nappa talked Vegeta up to Goku, saying how Vegeta was the strongest among Saiyans that the planet was named after him. Moreover, Frieza spares him specifically out of all the Saiyans he murdered because of how talented he was. Frieza confirmes this when he laments on what a waste it was to kill Vegeta and why couldn't he just stay loyal. In the Bardock TV Special, they had an entire section of Vegeta being gushed on my Frieza's men.

He is undoubtedly The Ace who turns out to be quite broken as we go through the Namek Saga and he gets surpassed by Goku.

Wow, completely ninja on that. lol

On Brilliant, but Lazy, the reason Chi-Chi even wants Gohan to be at the tournament along with Goten is because they need money and in the Super Chi-Chi forces him to farm again after the Battle of Gods Sage, which leads to conflict since Goku wants to train.

The Ginyu Force is officially classified as a mercenary group. They work for Frieza, but they're also outside their ranks and is it's own group.

I do agree the Kais fit more with authority equal asskicking base on what we know and should be move.

Babidi is interesting since he is the boss, but his ranks are still base on power given that Dabura is the big number 2 and is by far the strongest, and the lowest being cannon fodder. I doubt Dabura would have gotten his rank if he was just an average fighter.

Also, the Supreme Kai says that Babidi is the most dangerous despite his physical weakness since he can use magic that can control evil people like Dabura.

• Ginyu Force: Yeah, they're explicitly an outside group. Maybe that affords them rank above others in the PTO, but, well, everyone is dead by the time they arrive so that would be pure speculation. We have no idea if they have any authority within the PTO.

• Agreed on the Kais.

• Agreed on Babidi. He's dangerous, yes, but in the way an Evil Genius usually is. He's not a physical threat.

Alright, so we'll leave the Ginyus listed separately and move the Kaios.

If Kaioshin said that Babidi is the most dangerous, then that would qualify him as a subversion when Piccolo makes short work of him with about as much effort as Vegeta used to kill Pocus. But then we need to decide if he subverts Authority Equals Asskicking or Asskicking Equals Authority.

I think leaving him where he is under Asskicking Equals Authority would be the better option. For the most part, his minions play it straight enough. Dabura is the second-in-command because he's the most powerful and Babidi has no qualms replacing him when Buu awakens because Buu is even more powerful.

I don't think anyone called him dangerous as a combatant, though. Just dangerous as a threat.

That's true.

He's dangerous but that's not quite the same thing as asskicking. He's very bad at asskicking.

Well, if nothing else, Dabura should still be mentioned since he's the big number two because he's Babidi's strongest warrior.

But does that grant him Authority?

Can Babidi's minions really be described as an organization? There only seem to be two ranks: Babidi and mind-controlled servants of Babidi. Some servants are more powerful than others but there's no clear sense of hierarchy; everyone just obeys Babidi and he sometimes disposes of them when they're no longer of use.

Dabura is unquestionably The Dragon to Babidi, but he has no commanding responsibility over the others. He doesn't lead, give orders, or carry out responsibilities other than whatever Babidi intends for him to do.

Dabura has about as much Authority as Piccolo has over Krillin or Vegeta over Piccolo.

Have we reached a decision on Babidi?

... this is one of the most clear cut examples of Black-and-White Morality out there. There's never any reason to root against the good guys. There's never any reason to root for the bad guys. There's never a moment of "gosh, maybe the Big Bad isn't so bad" or "maybe Goku is a villain." And the thing with Goku making poor choices... that's not a sign of black, that's a sign of stupid. Goku is white. He's exceedingly white. He's one of the most unambiguously good characters out there. He's also explicitly an Idiot Hero

From the trope page: "If there are any morally ambiguous or grey characters around (such as an Anti-Hero or Worthy Opponent), they will eventually shift firmly to one side or the other" this happens to every single morally ambiguous character. By the end, Vegeta, Piccolo, and anyone else whose side is unclear winds up firmly on one side.

But there are.

There's every reason to root against Vegeta when 90% of Namek revolves around him as the Villain Protagonist, when he's helping Cell absorb Android 18, when he outright turns on Goku and Gohan in Babidi's ship. He flips sides constantly. Sure, he sees the light, but he did that at the end of the Cell arc too and that didn't stop him from selling his soul to Babidi.

Majin Buu literally winds up firmly on both sides.

As for, "Maybe the Big Bad isn't so bad," that happened to Piccolo, to Vegeta, to half of the Androids, even - as mentioned above - to Majin Buu.

Each time that happened, they weren't the Big Bad. They went from "Yes, clearly antagonistic" to "working their way towards redemption" to "redeemed." Vegeta was only the Big Bad for the Saiyan Arc. 16-18 were never Big Bads. And so on.

Vegeta has a rough time with the Face–Heel Revolving Door, but even if we consider him straight up gray (which I don't... he goes from black to gray to white) the sides of the conflict are very clear cut. One side is clearly good. The other side is clearly not. Midway through any arc, who is on what side is pretty clear.

Mmm.

I see your point. While Vegeta and a few other characters like to cross back and forth over the line multiple times, the line itself is pretty unambiguous. I'll put the trope back.

Okay, the main problem here is that Goku's White morality rarely seems to work.

• Goku sparing Vegeta may have eventually led to Vegeta's redemption, but it also led to Vegeta murdering Namekian villagers that couldn't be resurrected.
• Goku sparing Frieza only led to Frieza coming back and being killed by someone willing to kill him.
• Goku giving Cell a senzu bean to let him fight Gohan evenly led to the Z-Fighters being tortured, Android 16 being killed, Goku being killed, everyone on King Kai's planet being killed, Bojack being released (according to a movie), Chi-Chi being a widow and Goten being fatherless. Indirect benefits are Androids 17 and 18 being spared, and Goku learning both Fusion and SSJ 3.

There's also the fact that Goku is a warrior first and a hero second. He'll try to save people, but if saving them involves anything other than giving himself the best possible fight, he'll ixnay that option.

Goku himself may be a White-leaning hero, but the world he lives in is very gray and even Goku's level of "white" depends on what you prioritize.

Goku is white, he just have moments of being selfish when it comes to fight. He isn't Superman, but fans tend to go all Ron the Death Eater on him since they think you have to be like Superman to be consider a good person, when really Superman is outstandingly good to the point of inhuman.

No, no I don't think so.

You don't have to be "outstandingly inhuman" to not throw the genocidal bad guy a healing item.

Or not use your strongest trump card until AFTER your closest rival releases the big pink demon.

Goku has character traits that many people would see as morally gray that don't require messianic goodness to avoid.

The thing is, those aren't out of darkness.

They're out of stupidity.

Goku is... not smart. He's bold, he's reckless, and he overestimates himself and his friends. But it's still... whiteness. Hell, that Senzu Bean thing? That's out of a sense of fair play.

No one's saying Goku's perfect. Not by a long shot. He doesn't get his friends and family, honestly. But his heart is as good as they get. I mean, that's freaking explicitly true. Between the "pure heart to ride Nimbus," the whole "Devilmite Beam," and "pure heart to be a Super Saiyan," I don't even understand how Goku could possibly be argued as gray.

That's why I said that it can depend on an individual's priorities.

Goku may be an idiot, but not in regards to anything he actually cares about—like fighting. His sense of fairness, likewise, comes at the expense of risking the lives of everyone on a given planet.

Being dumb, nor ignorant, gives one a free pass in a moral debate.

It... kind of does. He genuinely doesn't know he's hurting anyone. He thinks he's doing the right thing.

He thinks it would be rude of him to interfere with Gohan and Cell. It honestly didn't occur to him that the kid wouldn't want to fight Cell on an even playing ground.

All these things are basically Values Dissonance. Audiences may think "WTF Goku" but the narrative does not.

Which, again, was my point. Not knowing that you're hurting people doesn't change the fact that you are. That was the entire point to Fat Buu. Is a rapist alleviated of wrongdoing if he sincerely thought it was for the victims' own good? How about a slave owner who truly believes that his property is better off under his control?

Also, wrong. Every character there had a massive What the Hell, Hero? reaction to Goku's actions.

Beating a dead horse, but I just wanted to add that Goku's actions are not coming from stupidity, most of the time, but by his own values and standards.

He spares Frieza out of Cruel Mercy. Not because he wants to fight him again, or because he wants Frieza to become a better person, it is out of pure spite. He sees leaving Frieza broken and a shadow of his former self as the worst punishment he can give him. This is done out of a selfish revenge, but understandable since he wants Frieza to suffer. But he does shows real mercy to Frieza after Frieza begs and pleads for his life and Goku is actually hesitant. He clearly doesn't want to save Frieza, but he moral code won't let him. From most, this is stupid because Frieza is a mass-murderer, but it also coming from a place of purity since Goku is showing that he can't turn down a plea for help.

He tries to spare Vegeta's feeling after seeing how much Vegeta demeaned himself just so he can catch up and fight him. Yeah, we may say he should have fought for the greater good, but Goku didn't want to smash Vegeta in the process.

And this is what I mean by Ron the Death Eater. We looking at it as, Goku should have done this to save many or to save the universe, while Goku doesn't think that way. He thinks only of those closest to him (not to say he won't save a stranger).

That isn't Ron the Death Eater. Even characters in the story are appalled by the actions of Goku and other Saiyans.

Even if not, it isn't Ron the Death Eater to say that a heroic character has a few unheroic qualities. If anything, I'd say calling his actions "pure white" is more misguided.

The only time any character acted appalled by Goku's actions is when he has Gohan fights Cell and gave Cell a senzu. That is literally the only time his actions have been questioned. Every other time, either no one was around or the agreed with him like letting the androids come so they can fight them. And the 'other' Saiyans? You mean Vegeta who is reason why Cell and the Buu Saga got so bad. Yeah they should be appalled.

I said Ron the Death Eater because fans takes Goku's more questionable actions and take them to extremes like we have here with someone saying that Goku is grey because he did this, when his actions is done more out of purity, honor, with a bit selfishness.

I'm not "fans", so don't lump what I say with people who aren't here.

Also, no. King Kai was horrified by Goku's desire to fight Frieza. The Kais were shocked when Goku crushed the Potara along with Vegeta. Piccolo called Goku out for using Gohan as a weapon against Cell when Gohan isn't a warrior.

There's other examples, too. Goku's actions are treated as shocking or short-sighted by many characters in-universe. As I said, treating him like his actions are always pure white morality is misguided. Hell you even added "with a bit of selfishness". That's freaking GRAY.

I'm not saying Goku is villainous. I'm saying that he is a very light gray, and that the world he inhabits does not always work with his "whiter" aspects.

I wasn't talking about you, so what was the point of you even commenting on it.

No, King Kai is shocked because of Goku's sudden change in behavior after Goku became a Super Saiyan. He went as far as to say that this isn't Goku, but the Super Saiyan. Showing that this isn't Goku's normal behavior. And only Old Kai was appalled by Goku and Vegeta's behavior. Supreme Kai was somewhat understanding and Denda said crap. I also already mentioned the Cell Games as one of the only times Goku's behavior is actually questioned by his friends.

Most of his actions are white, not grey. He can act selfishly, but that is like most people in the world.

I really think we're getting into serious Values Dissonance here. Toriyama was not trying to write Goku as a morally ambiguous conflicted gray character. He was writing him as a good person, but in order to move the plot forward, not a perfect one. He's not perfect but claiming that someone has to be perfect in order to count as white is madness.

Is Goku good or bad? Or is he in between? He's unquestionably written to be good. Flawed, yes. But definitely good. There's never any doubt that he's fighting for good.

Ramona: If you aren't talking about me, what was the point of bringing up Ron the Death Eater? I'm not calling Goku a villain, so what does what other fans do have to do with this conversation? Also, why would you say: "like we have here with someone saying that Goku is grey because he did this"? Who is this "someone"?

Also, no. I said King Kai was horrified when Goku wanted to fight Frieza. That was when Goku was on his spaceship, LONG before reaching Namek. Goku wanted to fight Frieza for no other reason than he could, which was what King Kai was horrified at.

And finally, no. You specifically said giving Cell a senzu was "the only time" the characters reacted horrified by Goku's actions. That is a different reaction to the one Piccolo had about Gohan, when he called Goku out for using him, because that was AFTER Gohan had gone SSJ 2.

Supreme Kai was only "somewhat understanding" in the sense that by the time he reacted, it was too late. He had no choice but to try and believe in Goku and Vegeta.

Larkmarn: As I said, that's fine. The problem is that the story itself does not agree with Goku's shade of "white" on most occasions. Goku at his most "white", as far as the story is concerned, tends to cause as many problems as he stops.

As I mentioned, saving Vegeta turned out to lead to good things after Namek, but on Namek, Vegeta also killed a bunch of villagers who were exempt from being brought back by the wish to revive those killed by "Frieza's men". Goku deciding to spare Raditz ended up with Goku being killed, which indirectly led to others being killed by Vegeta and Nappa. Goku sparing Frieza was a basically a wash, since someone else just did what Goku chose not to. Goku's desire to train Gohan to be his replacement backfired spectacularly during the Cell Games.

Sure, I can buy that the narrative believes that Goku is a "white" hero. However, it ALSO believes that white tends not to work. So I'd say there needs to be an addendum to the morality trope.

That Goku tends to get called out when he makes non-White choices leads me to conclude that the narrative does think White is generally the best option. It doesn't always agree with Goku's choices but when it disagrees, there's typically someone to champion the White perspective and say What the Hell, Hero?.

Goku gets called out not because the narrative thinks White is wrong, but because he strays from White in favor of selfish goals. Notably, Goku is at his most selfish at the Cell Games and early Buu Saga, a time when he was supposed to slide out of The Hero role in favor of Gohan, who openly questions Goku's ideology of fighting for its own sake and is hesitant to face Cell because he sees no value in Cell's pointless ego-wanking tournament. Goku ultimately pays for Gohan's lack of adequate preparation with his life.

In a Black and White work, the positions of Black and White are static. The characters don't necessarily have to be. They can slide off-alignment from time to time, but heroic characters tend to get harshly punished for making Gray or Black choices while villains tend to start seeing their lives improve after making the jump to antihero, such as Vegeta finally getting out from under Frieza's thumb and acquiring a family.

EDIT: Wait, no. That doesn't add up.

The problem, though, is that when people disagree with Goku's "non-white" actions, no one with the "whiter" standpoint turns out to be correct. For example, despite all of their complaints about Goku using Gohan, absolutely no one there can do anything but accept it. Same with some of Goku's other questionable decisions like destroying the Potara or holding back just to see what Buu is capable of. How "Black and White" is your morality, really, when gray decisions are the ones that are in control?

The problem with the narrative's stance on "Black and White" is that Goku may be intended as White, but when he make Gray decisions, he drags dissenters kicking and screaming with him. And often when he DOES make White decisions, he needs someone Grayer to come along and clean up the mess that makes.

At the end of the arc, there's two sides to any given conflict. The good side and the bad side. There's no hints that the bad side may well be in the right, there's no hints that the good guys winning may be bad. You're expected to root for the good guys to win and the bad guys to lose. You may not be happy with some of the individual actions but the conflicts are black and white.

And that, right there, describes Gray-and-Black Morality more than this one. The litmus test for that trope is (and I quote):

1. Do the protagonists regularly get away with ruthless or amoral actions? (See my statement above. Check.)
2. Are they still unquestionably painted as being "on the right side?" By virtue of the other side being worse? Whether the author is successful or not does not matter. (Which is what you just said. Check.)

As Tobias Drake said, Goku (at his most selfish) is NOT a pure white hero. But the bad guys are just so much worse that any of his actions, no matter how selfish or stupid, are seen as better than the alternative.

You're not rooting against the villains, you're supposed to still be rooting for the heroes. I don't think Ron the Death Eater applies here, but Values Dissonance does. The work and the characters kind of aren't as nuanced as we make them out to be. It's like all the jokes about Goku being a bad father or what have you. We see the stuff but it's clearly not supposed to be the point.

Goku doesn't get away with ruthless and amoral actions, though. That's the point. The other characters may not be able to do anything about it, but that doesn't mean he gets a free pass from the narrative.

• Goku's Cruel Mercy towards Frieza was punished by Frieza's subsequent attack against the Earth.
• Goku's actions at the Cell Games were harshly punished by the narrative; he literally dies for the choices he makes here.
• Every time Goku undermines his own side in the Buu arc, it succeeds in making the problem worse.
  • Fighting Vegeta instead of giving Buu the attention he deserves? Buu awakens and is too powerful for anyone to handle. Goku's bad choices doom the universe.
  • Sending the kids to fight Buu instead? Everyone on Earth dies while they're being trained, and all they accomplish is making Buu so strong that Gohan can't beat him either.
  • Vegetto going inside Buu to rescue people who could just be revived with the Dragon Balls in the inevitable "repopulate the Earth" wish? Goku and Vegeta lose their fusion and the hostages are all subsequently killed anyway.
  • Breaking the Potara and relying on Goku's own strength instead? Too bad, Super Saiyan 3's immense drawbacks make defeating Buu impossible. Probably should have hung onto the Potara after all.

It's true that Goku at his most selfish isn't a pure white hero, but the narrative almost always punishes him whenever he strays into Gray. It doesn't follow him over there. The only time he's ever been rewarded for a selfish decision was sparing Vegeta, and that's only because Vegeta was so popular that Toriyama had to invent a new villain to take over the Namek arc.

Larkmarn: I think it's not really clear where "rooting for the heroes" and "rooting against the villains" lies in this series. Especially with Frieza, where SSJ Goku beating the snot out of him was meant to be pure Catharsis Factor.

Values Dissonance doesn't matter as much when Goku gets called by the characters for some of the stuff he does, nor the fact that his White nature is often immediately given horrific consequences. Goku deciding to spare Raditz, only for it to immediately lead to both his own death AND everyone killed by the Saiyans^note Because Piccolo told them about the Dragon Balls in lieu of Goku's sacrifice. would be no different from, say, Superman sparing The Joker, only for the clown to poison thousands of people later in the same story. The only difference is that DC Comics doesn't have such an easy Reset Button.

Tobias Drake:

1. Goku's Cruel Mercy had no consequences. It was a wash, because Frieza literally decided to wait until Goku was almost back to Earth to destroy it before he arrived as a Take That!. In Trunks' timeline, Goku just teleported to Earth (since Frieza didn't know he could do that) and killed Frieza anyway. It was a wash.
2. Goku's decision to focus on Gohan and push him succeeded with Gohan attaining new power to defeat Cell. Sure, Goku had to do some damage control and died in the end, but his plan still worked. (Even the permanence of his death was his own decision.)
3. All of Goku's decisions during the Buu saga are waved off in the story by having most things turn out better than they started.

Goku's "grayer" actions rarely ever have permanent consequences within the story. As Larkmarn and Ramona said, the story treats his actions as being "white" (or at least light gray in comparison to the black of the villains). He gets away with being selfish constantly, and even when he's called out, people can't do anything else but support him and hope he finds a way to fix it all (which he almost always does).

In lieu of fighting further, I think there might be a Missing Supertrope here.

Black-and-White Morality assumes that the story only has two sides, and one is meant to be clearly "good" (or at least the author's definition of good) while the other is everything people would see as bad.

But like I said before, the problem is: how white can your morality be when the gray is shown in-universe to be equally necessary or beneficial? That's where DBZ falls, but I don't think we have a trope for that. DBZ is a story where the good guys often choose to make risky, gray decisions because there exists a narrative device which can completely fix it.

"Insulting someone's pride" seems... kinda like an excellent example of a Berserk Button. Why wouldn't that count?

It might if it's rephrased?

I don't know. I just consider getting angry in response to being insulted to be an ordinary response.

It said hurting his pride. Not insulting him.

Examples of Vegeta flipping out because someone hurt his pride without insulting him are pretty common. Take any instance where someone demonstrates they're stronger than him. I mean, it's such a well-known button that Trunks holds back during a fight with the fate of the Earth in the balance because he knows Vegeta will flip the eff out.

Fair enough. I might have interpreted that example incorrectly. So that one's a keeper.

Word. I've said it before and I'll say it again... I do appreciate the fact we've got real discussion going on in these pages. People are flexible, willing to listen, and we're working towards a similar goal.

It honestly makes me kinda happy.

I try to be reasonable while basically auditing the tropes.

Reconsidering the Beerus example, I'm not sure it counts. Beerus doesn't have a button; he's just very petty and prone to reacting with planet-destruction at the slightest inconvenience.

So, take out all the examples of misuse and this is what we're left with:

Dragon Ball Z

• Chi-Chi flips out at the suggestion that she's old.
• Vegeta has a sore spot for any insinuation that someone is stronger than him.
  VEGETA: Call me crazy, but you make it sound as if you've become a great deal stronger than I am.
  GOKU: Sure. I'm far above you.
  VEGETA: (thinks) Curse you, Kakarot! Always one step ahead of me! No matter how much I progress, you always seem to surpass me! And now you've done it again! You're always there laughing in my face! Why won't you leave me alone?!
• Majin Buu has a bottomless appetite and becomes violently angry when he feels like his meal is threatened. Any attempt to take away or deny him food is met with excessive hostility.

Resurrection of F

• Frieza loses his temper and throws Tagoma out of an airlock in response to the suggestion that he should return to ruling his empire instead of fixating on the Saiyans who cost him his life and his pride.

I don't think this warrants a dedicated Berserk Button page.

Disagreeing. DBZ, like most shonen, takes the position that fighting ability, fighting spirit, and martial arts are related, if not all the same thing.

For example, Cell doesn't just absorb the powers of each character—he also absorbs their techniques.

I think this boils die to semantics of what "martial arts" is. Besides that, Years Too Early is a boast that lots of anime villains make. Especially since, in Asian cultures, Kung fu simply means "that which is achieved through great effort and discipline ".

Agree on King Zeal on this. All the major villians except Fat and Kid Buu are trained fighters. Even Cell counts since he was created from the best martial artists on the planet and his foundation about fighting is the best of all the villains, except maybe Super Buu after he absorbs Piccolo.

Ki usage in the series is also shown as a type of fighting style and isn't a super power, which is how Videl learned to fly. Ki and those who use it falls under the trope Supernatural Martial Arts.

You're also wrong about the Saiyan. We have only seen Vegeta analysis a technique to get stronger. We never seen that from the other Saiyans and Vegeta himself says Saiyans got stronger from fighting on the front lines, not just getting close to death and healing.

Frieza was train which is how he learned all those different techniques. He just didn't train to get stronger, unless you assumed Frieza just knew how to create a technique that causes people to explode.

The jest of the trope is skill and they are skillful fighters even if we don't see then train onscreen. Being an Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy and a Smug Super are not mutually exclusive. Reading Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy, a person can fit this definition and not be a good as they think and are prone to bragging about how good their are and have short tempers, while a Smug Super really is all that and a bag of chips and while they may not brag, they will hotdog. Think Krillin whenever he goes against a normal human like at the Tournament Arc during the Buu Saga.

I also agree with King Zeal and Ramona 122003

Alright. I'm not sure I agree, but I'm certainly outvoted.

Reading over the trope description, I would say yes, he qualifies under the "racially to one community, culturally to another" definition. He is racially a Saiyan and it's had a profound impact on his growth and development, but he without question identifies with the Earthling culture he's grown up in.

Add it. Maybe throw in his self-identifying line to Frieza, "I'm a Saiyan raised on Earth," as a quote.

Added the quote. Thanks.