Darth Wiki So Bad Its Horrible Discussion

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05:06:09 PM Jan 2nd 2018
Where is the Voice Acting page?
07:42:09 PM Jan 2nd 2018
It was cut because there wasn't an objective way to judge the quality of voice acting like there was for a work. Here's the thread where it was decided to cut the page, so you can read their reasons there.
12:25:51 PM Jun 15th 2017
The Fan Film page seems a bit too mean-spirited. I mean, they seem like they're doing the same things that got the Fanfiction, New Media, and Web Original sections cut. I mean, come on. This is TV Tropes, NOT Kiwi Farms.
04:16:49 PM Jul 13th 2017
edited by TheEditor
"[The Fanfiction section was removed] due to almost always involving weapons-grade Rule 34 and thus falling afoul of the content policy"

"[one of the background images was] of Applejack Bound and Gagged was from a Rule 34 image, with visible genitalia."

Well, okay then.

Not to mention that, in my opinion, most, if not all of the entries, fall way closer to So Bad It's Good rather than this trope.

07:36:14 PM Jan 2nd 2017
Do we really need the voice acting page. Almost the examples are either minor annoyance or just an opinion by a hater. This is for Horrible works, not annoying voices. Barely any of the examples count and those that would are buried alive by natter. Can we please get rid of it.
01:27:08 AM Jun 13th 2016
edited by CRE040295
Can somebody put "toy channels on YouTube" on So Bad Its Horrible section because many people don't like at all. And why many toy channels on YouTube are cancer for various reasons. Here's the video link for example! And there's many reasons why toy channels on YouTube sucks to begin with.
01:15:28 AM Jun 30th 2016
This is why this topic's flame bait.
10:35:38 PM Jan 15th 2017
Considering their massive view counts, the subs to those channels, and overwhelming positive response they tend to get from anyone that isn't a caustic critic...

No, they don't qualify.
10:31:28 AM Jun 9th 2016
Although this is a Flame Bait trope, I've seen it used on the YMMV page of a creator/group of creators to list works they think are terrible (e.g. Somecallmejohnny's opinions on Batman & Robin PS 1 and Shadow the Hedgehog). Is that kind of use of this trope considered fair game, or shouldn't it be used that way at all?
02:35:24 PM Sep 21st 2016
No. If the flamebait banner is seen on a page, it shouldn't be listed at all.
10:37:33 PM Jan 15th 2017
Also, Shadow the Hedgehog doesn't even count. I'd say the laughably edgy writing combined with the fact it actually has decent gameplay propels it more into So Bad, It's Good.
02:59:37 AM May 6th 2016
So I've been gone for a while, but I've been wondering about the Important Notes that we have on the front of every page. Mainly that they slowly start to have more addendums over time, especially the video game and music sections. I'm thinking about trying to condense these notes so they'll take up less space. Any objections? Suggestions?
06:56:26 AM Nov 24th 2015
I came from the webcomics section, and discovered something interesting regarding this trope. Something that makes me want to ask for a little policy and parameter change.

Generally, a work that is So Bad It's Horrible has no discernible fans correct?

The case is that a work, even an unpopular work can be redeemed if it has a fan with valid points, even better if it is a fan of high prestige.

But what if a certain bad work actually just had crappy fans, albeit, Horrible fans?

I credit this discovery to User Soran The Man when he defended a spot for the Horrible webcomic Billy the Heretic.

Billy the Heretic is widely regarded as the worst webcomic on the net right up with Sonichu. It is a Nazi version of Dennis the Menace, where Dennis is racist white boy named Billy, and Mr. Wilson is a stereotypical Jewish slur named Mr. Rothstein.

While every sane, and half sane, and good hearted insane person would detest this comic, it undoubtedly had one audience, everybody' favorite acceptable targets, Nazis.

Soran The Man pointed out that these Nazi fans were indeed crappy fans who could not give an acceptable defense, for they did not like the comic for the art and writing(which were terrible), but because it just agreed with them. Thus, it is akin to dangling keys in front of an idiot. In his words "shitty art, shitty writing, shitty message, but most of all, a shitty fanbase of the most paranoid hate filled people on the planet, make for an overall shitty webcomic".

So I concur that we should also take into account the fans of a contested work, and judge their validations. If they are relatively decent folk who genuinely like certain aspects of the work, and are not just covering for the author, then the work is not horrible.
06:22:23 PM Nov 19th 2016
edited by MattBen789
1 "Albeit" shows slight contrast like "but". "spicy albeit cold fries"

2 No matter how much a niche may deserve insulting, we are not to offend the niche; that's the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. However, this atrocity does not appear to have any genuine fans whatsoever. Its "fans" just "like" it for agreeing with them, and in truth, even they rightly despise Billy the Heretic. In fact, a lot of its niche probably doesn't want to be associated with Billy the Heretic. It is objectively horrible!
03:01:34 AM Aug 21st 2015
Someone has added a line on the individual So Bad, It's Horrible pages, stating that individual comics arcs, books, etc., in otherwise good series shouldn't be added. While, it could make sense to leave those to Wallbangers, like we already do with TV shows, I'm not sure if it's the same thing, at least with comic book arcs and book sequels. Otherwise we'd have to do the same with bad movie sequels and such as well.

If there's some consensus regarding this, a lot of those pages will need to be cleaned up and, in some cases, changes to the description will need to be made.
08:49:48 PM Aug 15th 2015
edited by EM1Quantums
I couldn't help but notice the rule about critics and such, but the current #gamergate movement, makes me doubt the idea of entrusting the legitimacy of an entry to sites like IGN, Kotaku, etc.
02:09:27 PM Aug 19th 2015
Most of those sites were laughing stocks (or at least had known bias causing certian reviews to be laughable, like the blind hate for anything Sonic) long before GG was even thought of .
02:38:04 AM Aug 21st 2015
edited by supergod
This isn't the place to talk about corruption or whatever. Anyway, it's just saying that you can't add something here if it's positively reviewed by a lot of major websites. No matter how bad you think those sites are, they're not going to be able to make something legitimately terrible (at least to qualify for this page) look good (and since a lot of people put their trust in these reviews, even bad games reviewed positively will end up getting a fanbase thanks to them, thus disqualifying those here anyway). Also, even if IGN is "corrupt" or whatever, one site isn't going to result in something being added here, especially if it already has good user ratings on sites like Metacritic (even though those are even more biased and unreliable) or if it has a legitimate following.
08:53:29 PM Aug 12th 2015
Should we have a section for porn? Porn so bad, regardless of fetish, would appeal to nobody. It can't be some random schmoe's Hentaifoundry page either, it has to be something commercially sold or a proper film for web distribution. Films, hentai, Doujinshi, novels, games, whatever fits.

I have a feeling a lot of stuff on the Cinema Snob's catalogue would fit but that is beside the point.
08:58:31 PM Aug 12th 2015
edited by chasemaddigan
Short answer, no. Long answer, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Please read this page in order to understand the wiki's policy on porn.
07:46:47 AM Aug 13th 2015
Fair enough, just curious
05:59:19 AM Aug 15th 2015
edited by hydrix
I fear that it would end up looking like the defunct fanfiction section of the very page we are discussing on. See the Permanent Red Link Club for all the necessary information. Personally I would take it to The Fetish Fuel Wiki and recommend it if it turns out that it is of good quality and does not violate The Content Policy and the 5P Circuit (which is doable as there is a hentai anime on Anime and Manga )
07:13:08 PM Nov 19th 2016
edited by MattBen789
I don't think we should do that. For starters, that would be unpleasant. Furthermore, "there's a market for all types of deviancy (no matter how small a niche it is)"; there's a whole Rule of the Internet dedicated to this. I doubt any instance of what you're talking about is objectively bad.
12:20:53 PM May 5th 2015
It personally bothers me that most of the examples, especially under Literature and both of the Films, don't give plot summaries. You could play a Drinking Game for how many times those pages essentially just say, "yeah, it has a Cliché Storm, not gonna tell you what it is".
11:22:31 AM May 2nd 2015
Where would I go about putting an entry on TV-Nihon's craptastic subs?
11:58:48 AM May 2nd 2015
10:04:09 PM Jan 16th 2015
Do you guys think the new "YouTube Poop" subpage really belongs here? It's just a minor annoyance to me that it's grouped together alongside the more "common categories." Shouldn't it be in "Web Originals" or something?
11:34:14 AM Jan 17th 2015
Well, Horrible.Web Original is a perma-redlink.
11:52:00 AM Jan 17th 2015
It doesn't belong in New Media, so I was thinking of putting it in "Other," but even then it looks weird.

Wait, aren't YouTube Poops web originals? Should it be removed from the page?
04:05:46 AM Jan 11th 2015
I know Gamer Gate is a highly divicive topic at best, but #Je Suis Zoe Quinn https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/JeSuisZoeQuinn?src=hash is (& one of the extremely few things both sides can agree on was) an extremely an horrendous attempt at exploiting a the tragedy in France (that wasn't even 24 hours old at the time), & within an hour was taken over by people criticizing it & shitposting

Good item? Bad item? I'm just wondering because of how much back lash it got if it could count?
02:46:16 PM Jan 11th 2015
Let's not add a GamerGate example.
11:05:38 AM May 5th 2015
Yeah, I can speak from experience and say that GG is a such a polarizing issue on this site that it would just lead to a shitstorm.
06:27:48 AM Dec 6th 2014
edited by
I'm wondering if, perhaps, the Pro Wrestling section should be seriously trimmed or removed altogether. There are far too many entries on that page which seem to just fall under "morally questionable" rather than "bad", even though the main page clearly states that simply being offensive isn't enough. There are also very few examples of genuinely poor matches, promotions and angles. For example, the "Fingerpoke Of Doom" would probably fall more under Wall Banger, because while it might've been a bone-headed move on WCW's part, I don't think it was ever notorious for being a terribly acted/executed match across the board. I would think this page should really be for matches that are notorious for their bad execution (ie. where the wrestlers/writers/etc. clearly weren't even trying) and for badly run wrestling promotions. Not fan alienating decisions or morally questionable acts.

What does everybody else think?
11:49:53 AM Dec 6th 2014
Might want to ask about it on Ask The Tropers.
04:16:30 AM Jul 20th 2014
also I was wondering if we should move the magazine articles from Music/Other to Other/Magazine Articles, and the books under Music to literature.

I don't know if I'm alone on this, but it just seems weird.
10:42:07 PM Jul 19th 2014
should we ad more films to the horrible page?

like Copper Mountain (1983),Anne B. Real (2003) or Danes without a Clue (1997)?

I just can't find any good reviews of them, what do you guys think?
01:41:41 AM Jul 20th 2014
Eh, I'd think no on them. "No good reviews" can be a sign of Critical Dissonance, plus you'd need to describe in detail how the work is bad.
03:47:47 AM Jul 20th 2014
but I meant no good reviews from IMDB, plus with Danes w/out Clue both the actors apologized for making the movie and the only thing I found was saying it as the worst thing to ever come from the Netherlands
09:51:57 AM Sep 4th 2014
Go ask on the film page. Honestly "Danes without a Clue" sounds like a candidate.
04:57:05 AM Jul 19th 2014
I found some reviews for some of the films that had none, would it be ok to ad the links so everyone can have all contacts on with the films are and why they're bad?

(The Smokers) http://eegah-taki.tumblr.com/post/89043968113/the-smokers-2000-mancave-movie

(Swepted Away) http://eegah-taki.tumblr.com/post/89082611643/swept-away-2002-mancave-movie

(Daddy Day Camp) http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/teamt/mjtv/ss/44074-daddy-day-camp
05:02:54 AM Jul 19th 2014
07:16:50 PM Jul 3rd 2014
edited by
Is it me or Pumpkinhead's Revenge disappeared from the Video Games Generations section? Also, why a lot of cartoons were removed from the Western Animation section?
09:42:42 PM Apr 26th 2014
Is it possible for a section of So Bad It's Horrible for creepypastas to be made? I had the displeasure of listening to readings of Blood Whistle: Hear It's Cry and I see comments going on how terrible it is with its god-awful writing. It's one of the most painful to read or listen to because of how the "author" drags out the entire thing huge words that makes it a pretentious, cringe-worthy bore.
06:27:36 PM Mar 5th 2014
What happened to the Flame Bait indicative at the top of the page?
03:12:03 AM Mar 6th 2014
There seems to be a malfunction in the Flame Bait flag. Might want to report it in the Wiki Tech Wish List.
05:21:39 AM Mar 6th 2014
I put it back again.
08:19:23 AM Feb 9th 2014
edited by
I think the video game section needs some cleanup. No way is Daikatana this trope. The game mostly garnered So Okay, It's Average reviews, and a lot of its criticism was simple Hype Backlash (some critics even retrospectively admitted that the game got harsher treatment upon release than it really deserved). Similarly, I'm removing Superman 64, because while the game may be horrible, it was a commercial success. So it really belongs under Critic-Proof. Same goes for WCW Nitro and WCW Thunder (neither of which had particularly horrible reviews anyway).

Not really sure yet about the Virtual Boy entry, given that the system for the most part fits this trope, but it did have a few pretty good games (such as Wario Land).
08:42:52 AM Feb 9th 2014
I think the opening paragraph in IGN's review for "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" on the Game Boy Advance (http://www.ign.com/articles/2006/12/14/rock-em-sock-em-robots-review-2) says it best:

"Ask some friends to name the worst games of all time, and you'll probably hear the same titles: Superman for the N64, E.T. for the Atari 2600, Night Trap for the Sega CD. But these aren't really the worst games ever made, they're just the most notoriously bad. The worst games tend to come and go relatively unnoticed, insulting just the few poor saps that bought them before being forgotten entirely."
09:36:50 AM Feb 10th 2014
You can remove them yourself you know! Just be sure to give an explanation for why you deleted them!
04:27:06 AM Feb 11th 2014
I already did, and my explanation is in my first post here.
08:14:39 AM Feb 11th 2014
I think the commercial success requirement could stand to be nuanced. If something is successful for the first week of sales and then has a gigantic dropoff as negative word-of-mouth spread, or if used copies of it have extremely low value and clog online and retail stores (as is the case with Superman 64), I think it should still be elligible for SBIH. Beside, doesn't the Critic-Proof writeup implies that the work has to be liked to be consumers? That's certainly not the case with Superman 64.

I agree with removing Daikatana, though.
06:46:06 AM Feb 18th 2014
edited by
I suppose there could be some leeway with the "commercial success" part. I left E.T. for the Atari 2600 on the page since, even though it sold a lot of copies, about 80% of those were eventually returned.

I just checked VG Chartz and found out that Superman 64 sold about 330,000 copies in the US (which would make the game a mild commercial success - though definitely not a platinum seller by any stretch). I suppose the game could be re-added to the Video Game page, but mention should be made of this in the game entry, along with an explanation of the massive number of used games clogging retail stores and websites. Otherwise, it runs a risk of violating the page rules.

Just for clarity: "Critical Dissonance" is when a work was panned by critics but liked by the general public. "Critic Proof" simply means a work was panned by both critics and the general public but was still commercially successful. At least, that's how I always interpreted it (the two pages are pretty blurry, actually).
08:19:23 AM Feb 18th 2014
edited by
VG Chartz essentialy make its number out of thin air and shouldn't be used as a source for anything, ever.

For what it's worth, Eric Caen stated Superman 64 "sold very well and was profitable for us", but that they ultimately lost money due to cancelling the PS version. He doesn't give precise numbers, though.
02:06:36 PM Jan 6th 2014
edited by
To be honest, I'm not sure Superman 64 for the Nintendo 64 is an example of this. Yeah, it's a horrible, horrible game (I once played it out of curiosity, so I know), but it WAS a commercial success at the time. The Square Peg, Round Trope page mentions that, for a commercially sold product to be this trope, it needs to be both a critical and commercial failure. Otherwise, it belongs under a page like Critic-Proof.

I'm also a little hesitant about mentioning the Virtual Boy on this page, as despite its numerous problems and immediate discontinuation, the few games it got actually were (at least according to most reviewers) pretty good.
06:48:43 AM May 4th 2015
We should probably emphasize a bit more that it was the hardware rather than the software that's Horrible.
03:24:05 PM Jan 3rd 2014
edited by
Why is there no longer a Horrible Fanfic page on here?
03:12:13 AM Jan 4th 2014
07:49:04 AM Oct 7th 2014
I am saddened by this, like I have just stumbled upon a broken statue of liberty in a messed up world I thought was far removed from our own. We no longer have a list of fanfic we can dare people to read as internet initiation.

I guess it makes sense though. And I guess there's always the livejournal communities that also seek out bad fanfic for that.
11:53:40 AM Nov 23rd 2015
How sad. I found a very bad fanfic of Through the Looking Glass with Sonic the Hedgehog instead of Alice. No more than a Cut-and-Paste Translation — replace every instance of "Alice" with "Sonic" and that's basically it. Chapter 9 is titled "Queen Sonic" (it should actually be "King Sonic"), and Chapter 11 is exactly the same as the Looking-Glass version. It deserves to be in there.
01:26:00 PM Nov 23rd 2015
Fanfiction that is not merely bad but simply lazy should be left to languish in obscurity. It's not as if there's anything we need to warn people about, unlike paid media. And find-replace works with no creativity at all should be treated as non-existent, because in a sense they are.
11:03:12 PM May 9th 2013
I've heard of a few books on here that were legendary-ally bad, but I can't find anything about them, can someone help? (The Diary f Anne Frank-Enstein by Thomas Runyen; Mouths of Madness by Jason Hillcut; Semidarkness by Bill O'Brien; Ramona's Little Friend by Jan Ellen Smith; The Babay-Sitters Club: Boy Troubles by Raimi Synder; Butte Buddies: The Mystery of Holland House by Conner L. Rice)

If anyone knows anything, could you please help us?
08:33:17 AM Jan 28th 2013
I really don't think those restaurant examples should be on this list. They're too opinion-based. This trope is about things that are objectively bad (ie. they don't function as they're supposed to, they're clearly written poorly, etc.). I think the restaurant examples belong more under Nausea Fuel than So Bad, It's Horrible.

Similarly, I really don't think the Blender Magazine example belongs here either. Blender was shut down, because its parent company couldn't afford to keep it going. While the magazine may have become the whipping boy of the music community over the years, that hardly qualifies it to be this trope. If you can, perhaps, find professional magazine critics who slammed the magazine, then it may have more belonging here. But the issues people have with it are entirely matters of personal opinion. Not to mention that Blender does have its place in history as the first CD Rom based music magazine. It will certainly be remembered for that, if nothing else.
08:43:43 AM Jan 28th 2013
edited by MartyD82
Actually, given that Blender had a pretty large subscription base, it by default does not belong on this page. Similarly, we really don't know how popular the restaurants are in their respective areas, so they don't belong here either. I'm going to delete them right now.

On the topic of Nello's: One negative critical review (for all we know, the restaurant itself might've just been having a bad day, and given the continuous nature of restaurant operation, restaurant owners do learn from complaints and negative critical reviews) and a 4.9/10 user rating does not qualify a restaurant for this trope. Nor do unethical business practices (despite the ridiculous prices they charge, they may very well use perfectly fresh ingredients and rare/fancy food items). At the same time, the Captain John's example doesn't fit this trope, because it lasted for a pretty long time and was actually quite popular. It was only recently (due to financial problems, etc.) that the restaurant significantly declined in quality. Which would make it more a Real Life example of Jumping the Shark than this trope.

A good restaurant example would be one that was open for three months but got repeatedly negative reviews from both the press and customers, numerous health violations, etc. and was thus immediately shut down. If the restaurant is still operating to this day and lasted for a reasonably long time (ie. more than a few years), then it probably doesn't belong here.
12:41:13 PM May 16th 2013
That's a shame cause i found a restaurant that is rather infamous. Even Gordon Ramsey found it horrible.
09:13:13 PM Oct 3rd 2013
I know the restaurant that Lady Stardust is referring to and I think that one deserves some kind of mention because that was the first time Gordon Ramsey gave up on a restaurant.
08:18:35 PM Oct 9th 2013
I also believe the one in question involving Gordon Ramsey, would deserve the mention. It's become a pop cultural meme for it's infamy. Considering the supposed following background events of the establishment, there's little left to claim the opinion is a particularly controversial one. Unless one just wanted to white knight for the place I suppose, but then why. The owners were so bad, they might as well been reality tv's restaurant equivalent of a paid actor Jerry Springer's Show guest. My "that's subjective" levels have some limits to respect.
06:17:13 PM Nov 10th 2013
Do you mean Amy's Baking Company? That place is bad and everybody knows it.
10:14:38 PM Nov 17th 2013
Amy's Baking Company suffers from terrible food (only the grocery store deserts were good and even those occasionally have flies in them according to reviews), high unemployment rate, and two bosses who would make Mr. Krabs cringe. [[Here's the episode in question. They've also had an epic Internet Backlash (which the owners made worse) due to the episode and has become a negative meme. That combined with a huge majority of negative reviews, might make them count.
02:14:30 PM Dec 6th 2013
That works. Although it should be mentioned that, at least according to The Huffington Post, Gordon Ramsey does plan to revisit the place in the S7 opener. At which we'll see whether or not Sammy and Amy have learned from this whole debacle. If they have, then the entry will need to be updated accordingly, otherwise we're just beating a dead horse.
11:52:53 AM Dec 29th 2013
They also harshly responded to every bit of criticism on Yelp, even accusing some of the reviewers of making up the fact that they've eaten there at all. Even if the actual food improves, I think it should still remain as an example of a horribly run business.
06:36:12 PM Jan 27th 2013
edited by SamMax
Shouldn't the Baywatch example be put in with the other Made For TV Movies? There is only one, yet somehow gets its own section. Is someone that biased against the show or movie?

EDIT: Oh, and I noticed that he said that he couldn't take some of the stupid moments. Is there even a reason we should keep this entry? I swear it reeks of bias against this thing rather than everyone agreeing it's crud.
06:58:39 PM Jan 27th 2013
I see that it has been removed. Thank you.
11:16:45 AM Dec 13th 2012
I went ahead and created the "Other" page that i mentioned a while back. I explained on the page that it's for stuff that doesn't really fit in the other categories, such as bad restaurants and bad infomercial products. I mentioned not to include products which cross other categories, like advertising or toys. All that's left to do is index it and relate it to the main page.
10:30:09 AM Jan 17th 2013
edited by MartyD82
12:58:30 AM Jun 6th 2013
Could you put fanfiction in the "Other" page as well? I don't like that Fast Eddie removed the fanfiction section. Shame. I want to see some bad fanfiction.
02:07:19 AM Jun 6th 2013
When a section is removed, that isn't a signal to go sneak it into other pages.
04:52:26 PM Nov 5th 2012
edited by shadowrevolution
Would the Neptunia and Mugen Souls series be considered So Bad, It's Horrible given how both of them bring out the bile from professional reviews on wondering how crap like this gets brought over?
12:18:18 PM Jan 20th 2013
...I think they still have a fanbase, regardless of what professional reviewers think of them. So I say no.
05:43:53 PM Oct 3rd 2012
I would like to add another section to this page: "Other". My intentions were to add something like "Horrible/Restaurants" or "Horrible/Websites", etc. I recall there was once a "Horrible/Cars" page that got deleted for (The Alleged Car redundancy). But there are plenty of poorly review restaurants out there on yelp, urbanspoon, tripadvisor, and google reviews. While it may not get approved due to subjectivity, would these examples pass?

TGI Fridays 761 7th Avenue New York City - 3/30 on 29 reviews. 'nuff said.

Captain John's Harbour Boat shitty tourist trap - horrible decor/food - finally closed in 2012

Cattleman's Steakhouse Orlando overpriced, badly cooked, tacky decor, 2.5/5 on 154 reviews

Could something like this work?
05:53:37 PM Oct 11th 2012
I might not be that well liked but this could work.
06:16:19 PM Nov 22nd 2012
I think the Restaurants thing would work. I think something similar to Websites was once done as "Web Original", but it was banished to the Permanent Red Link Club/
08:38:36 PM Jun 10th 2012
Shouldn't there be a so bad it's horrible page for episodes (for good shows, that had afew infamously bad episode(s)), or would that just start flam wars?
07:43:07 AM Jun 11th 2012
The page says "work" 23 times, so I'm pretty sure that we can only really apply this to entire shows or specials. Episodes are technically only a segment of a work.
11:13:42 AM Jun 11th 2012
Individual crappy episodes would more go under Dethroning Moment of Suck.
10:25:16 AM Jul 30th 2012
edited by SamMax
(Ignore this, machine was acting funny again)
10:26:17 AM Jul 30th 2012
And, for individual episodes that are universally hated, Wall Banger
05:29:21 PM May 27th 2012
So would it be alright if I nominate the latest Game Fly advertisements to be listed here? First and foremost, you have various unsatisfied customers physically assaulting game store clerks (in what is a thinly veiled expy of Game Stop I might add), the employees acting like smart ass jackasses which I would say is unrealistic but there will probably be at least one person who chimes in to tell me it's happened to them. Besides the petty childish violence over being told how much you'll get for a game in return (instead of, you know, leaving to try something else to get money out of your game), we also have the wonderful childish vandalism, and then one person smushes their face up against the window near the entrance of the store smashing a gamefly case to it in one instance. This is reminding me greatly of those teeth gratingly annoying egotistical Sonic commercials (and recent Subway commercials) as well, except with more violence and being about video games.
10:30:46 AM May 7th 2012
Is something wrong with the Video Games page, or is it just the computer deciding to act funny?
10:47:30 AM May 7th 2012
That page is locked. See Locked Pages.
11:03:52 AM May 7th 2012
What are you talking about? It's still available for editing, unless you were referring to something else entirely. Plus, my problem was that the page wasn't even appearing, which, as I know now, is a result of the computer acting weird.
11:04:48 PM Apr 11th 2012
Uh... what happened to the Fanfic subpages? Did they become memebers of the Permament Red Link Club with no warning? That's...honestly a bit disappointing if that did happen.
05:55:00 AM Apr 12th 2012
Same problem we had with Web Original: a lot of them were apparently subject to bashing authors and having an overload of examples due to Sturgeon's Law. There's just way too many horrible fics to keep track.
07:44:33 AM Apr 12th 2012
Still be better if there was warning...
03:10:01 PM Apr 12th 2012
Yeah, the deletion came out of nowhere.

If there was author bashing, why not just cut that out? Couldn't have been too hard...

Also, I don't think there were that many fics on the pages, at least compared to the massive amount of fanfiction on the internet.
08:55:58 PM Apr 12th 2012
Can we even contest the deletion? Or once it's on the Permanent Red Link Club, there's no going back?
01:25:22 PM Apr 13th 2012
I've been editing those pages for a while, and there really wasn't a lot of author bashing. What there was could have been cut I was talking to Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan about removing some of the more biased new entries. Kind of annoying that they completely cut a bunch of pages without warning, especially when we'd argued about it and decided democratically against it before.
05:20:34 AM Apr 16th 2012
edited by SamMax
Yeah, I think it needs to be put back, with the alleged author bashing being limited to "He also wrote this other bad Fan Fic", or "This is not him at his best" if they're usually at least average, if not good. Anything beyond that should be kept to a bare minimum. And "Rude Author" should not be listed as part of a work's badness, regardless of whether or not it actually is, though outright insulting the audience can be listed if it is within the work itself.

Yes, this may seem obvious to you, but As You Know, there are some people who do not read the rules, and thus, I felt it needed to be said.
06:28:01 AM Apr 16th 2012
I agree with Sam Max, Nicholas Onimura and Pulpo Oscuro. Better to warn the idiots who persist with author-bashing instead of geting rid of the whole page.
10:26:32 PM Apr 18th 2012
I agree. That page was too good for a laugh at idoicy to deserve a deletion..
05:06:24 AM Apr 23rd 2012
And it seems someone wants to make a new one, but is redlinked as of this writing. What do you think?
11:59:12 AM Apr 23rd 2012
I deleted that. If it was cut by admins, there was a reason for it. Creating a new one may very well just create the same problems. I wasn't happy to see either the web original or fan fic pages go, but if it's what the admins feels is for the greater good of the site, then I respect that decision and think it should be kept off. If the page could have been rewritten to be less about author bashing, then it would have been rewritten, not deleted.
09:06:39 AM Apr 27th 2012
I personally think we should restore it, but remove the author bashing and lock the pages so that new entries can only be added if an admin approves.
12:17:51 PM Apr 29th 2012
edited by dinosaurdan
You can see the fanfic pages if you go in the history.
10:25:12 PM May 1st 2012
edited by DarkHero9
Uh, if we have fanfic recommendations, it makes very little sense that we don't warn people about terrible fanfiction. Just don't allow people to actually comment on the subjects by locking it until you get a recommendation on a new entry.
11:43:16 AM May 2nd 2012
edited by SamMax
That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I'm all for it!
04:15:24 PM May 2nd 2012
Agreed. It was one of my favorite pages too! If people can know about all the good fanfic out there, they have a right to know the ones to keep away from!
04:10:08 PM May 7th 2012
edited by dinosaurdan
I also agree. I also have another idea. If the admins won't allow another So Bad Its Horrible Fanfic page to be made, we could always just make a wiki for it. The Fanfic pages aren't Lost Forever , you can still see the former contents of the pages if you go in the history of the pages. All we'd need to do is create a wiki and copy the info from the history and paste onto the wiki.
06:26:15 AM May 8th 2012
edited by lu127
The content of these fanfics is not in line with our new policy, and linking to them will cause us to lose our ads which are the source of our financial support. We had a very good reason for deleting them; we need to keep the site afloat.
09:17:19 AM May 8th 2012
edited by SamMax
Sounds fair to me, though it was said that it was due to author bashing, but I suppose they overlap. A separate website dedicated to these entries with the standards of So Bad, It's Horrible could work, I suppose, though. It's probably the closest to being restored we'll get, if nothing else.
12:30:15 PM May 8th 2012
There's a wiki for Troper Tales, so I don't see any reason why we couldn't make a wiki for the So Bad Its Horrible Fanfic section. We could use wikia to make the wiki.
07:53:48 AM May 9th 2012
Or, alternate idea, there can be a seperate wiki made for So Bad It's Horrible in general! That way TV Tropes doesn't need to be home to this kind of flame war.
10:18:21 AM May 9th 2012
That could work, depending on the circumstances. It is a subject to quite a few threats of deletion after all, which have been averted, but they may go through with it one day.
11:55:59 AM May 9th 2012
Well, if they did it Fetish Fuel, then doing it to SBIH would take the edge off things. Plus the wiki could go into more detail with individual articles for each work in question. Keeps drama off the website, gives more room for explanation, and ultimately serves a better purpose on its own site than it does on TV Tropes.

Best of all it could be formatted so that way there could be sub-articles for each of the parameters of SBIH (i.e. music, film, live action TV, etc). Those articles could list each work, give a brief explanation for the reason why it's listed and then link the title to an article that veers off into greater detail.
02:39:21 PM Jun 7th 2012
I don't really know wikia, but that sounds like a good idea to me.
08:25:21 AM Jun 24th 2012
Anyone that does know it willing to help out?
01:57:25 PM Jun 25th 2012
You might want to post this idea in the fourms. That way, more people will read the idea and maybe someone who knows Wikia will help.
05:16:55 PM Jan 4th 2012
edited by PulpoOscuro
Guys, if you don't want to see every last example on this page cut, go here now.

EDIT: They've got a crowner up now.
06:14:54 PM Jan 10th 2012
It's done. 8 to cut the page, 36 against.

Yeah, we're good.
05:40:25 AM Jan 27th 2012
Thank goodness for that! I LOVE this page!!
05:35:23 AM Dec 15th 2011
edited by SamMax
I think Anime should have its name changed to Anime and Manga (though the original name could be used as a redirect). All existing examples can stay, but it will allow us to see what horrors some Mangakas have unleashed upon us. Plus: Transformers: Kiss Players has no animation available (or at least not an official one), but I want to see if you support or reject it.
06:29:21 PM Jun 1st 2012
I have been away too long... I agree with this suggestion — that, or make a separate manga page. We had "Kiss Players" listed in anime for a while. Since it isn't, that is extra incentive.
08:12:06 PM Dec 4th 2011
06:05:34 PM Nov 3rd 2011
What I find funny is in the image on the main SBIH page, the Star Wars Holiday Special page is parallel to the line that's going down, which means that the SWHS would never reach that line.
05:40:19 PM Sep 25th 2011
What the hell happend to the web original page?Why is it gone? All other forms of media have pages, so why did web original have to go? Their are quite a bit of awful web shows and web videos you know.
05:43:17 PM Sep 25th 2011
I suppose it was cut because the mods thought it could spark off a flame war. Or something was wrong with the page, so they cut it out.
12:19:25 PM Oct 1st 2011
I agree that a lock was sufficent for the purpose of ending a Flame War and that edits my request are a fair trade.
05:41:59 PM Sep 8th 2011
Why is it that the original link of So Bad, It's Horrible is not allowed to redirect to this page?
07:30:37 AM Sep 18th 2011
People abused So Bad It's Horrible a lot and the trope itself can easily start a flame war. So all white pages that used to redirect to here are now cut.
07:00:23 PM Jul 12th 2011
I really don't see why this page even exists. Quoting from the home page: "We are also not a wiki for bashing things. Once again, we're about celebrating fiction, not showing off how snide and sarcastic we can be."

Putting it on Darth Wiki doesn't make the site look any better, it just seems like a shameless attempt to justify keeping a page that counters the goal of TV Tropes.

Yes, it's been here a while. Yes, people will probably complain. No, this page does not have any reason to exist.

There are other sites created for bashing terrible fiction. If someone wants to complain about bad media they can simply go to one of the many places one the web where it actually belongs.
08:17:13 AM Jul 13th 2011
Basically, it exists to give the people who're going to bitch anyway a closed off place to do it away from the main pages. It's not a perfect solution, mind, but it does help keep the moaning and whining off the main pages.
07:32:10 AM Sep 18th 2011
Thanks, I love to be labeled as a person who's "moaning and whining" while we're trying to keep this trope afloat and from starting flame wars. Really keeps up the morale.
07:27:18 AM Dec 17th 2011
edited by BNJC1
Plus this page is pretty fun to read. Heartbreaker, learn to have some fun, sheesh. "shameless attempt to justify keeping a page that counters the goal of TV Tropes" For god's sake, man. It's just a fun little website, not some important encyclopedia, chill out.
12:12:17 AM Aug 18th 2012
Er.... so it's okay to explain why you love things, but not okay to explain why you hate things? I mean, I understand what you're trying to say here, but there's a difference between "expressing dislike" and "bashing". -.-
12:12:58 AM Aug 18th 2012
And I like being snarky and sarcastic! :)
09:12:25 PM Jul 9th 2011
Can I add an example that was kinda good at first but then went into a Cerebus Syndrome and then became so bad it's horrible? Oh, and the one I'm thinking of has a Surprisingly Improved Sequel. Does that mean it doesn't count?
06:33:56 PM Jun 1st 2012
Please don't. Use Wall Banger for that, clearly marking where it went downhill. A Horrible work is listed as a whole and ideally has no highlights.

There might be an exception if what you are referring to is a comic book, given that I haven't yet figured out what one complete unit of comic book is. Still, even then, make it darn clear what parts you are referring to.
03:32:34 PM Jun 25th 2011
Where is the page? The subpages are still there, so this must be some kind of glitch...right?
03:39:31 PM Jun 25th 2011
edited by robster2001
It was cut today... but It Got Better.
02:39:04 AM Jun 26th 2011
Who revived it? The cut was necessary; this is nothing but a bash-fest.
04:06:56 AM Jun 26th 2011
I don't get it. Only the ptitle link works. If they cut the main redirects, why not cut the ptitle too? And it showed up on the Permanent Red Link Club.
01:10:28 AM Jun 16th 2011
Is there a media art form that Christian Weston Chandler hasn't pissed all over?
09:28:29 AM Nov 17th 2011
edited by SamMax
He hasn't attacked Western Animation, Anime, Tabletop Games, Literature, Professional Wrestling, Toys (at least, not in a toy factory), and while he does have a Webcomic, he has yet to attack either Comic Books or Newspaper Comics. Oh, and although he has made some terrible mods, he has not been involved with the development team of any Video Games.

Anything I got wrong?
08:34:36 AM Nov 27th 2011
edited by PulpoOscuro
Actually, he has attacked literature, Western Animation, anime to some extent, tabletop games, and he would attack video games if he ever got around to it.

Sorry for using such a negative site, but it is an effective way to get lots of information about CWC pretty fast.
10:13:58 AM Jan 9th 2012
01:30:03 PM Jan 11th 2012
I would rather like to see Chris-Chan professional wrestling, though.
03:33:52 AM Mar 2nd 2011
Okay, so why the fuck was the Fanfic Authors page cut?
10:57:01 PM Apr 2nd 2011
Because of your potty mouth, I assume.
12:13:58 AM Aug 18th 2012
^ :/
02:48:23 AM Dec 19th 2010
What happened to the XKCD picture?
03:12:24 PM Dec 19th 2010
It was some random glitch with all pictures. Its fixed now.
02:18:25 PM Nov 21st 2010
Did anyone else notice that Sports in unlocked?
05:30:12 PM Nov 21st 2010
Seeing as it was removed from Permanent Red Link Club, yeah. Though I don't know if there was a change of attitude toward Sport being part of the site's missions, or if it just is something, uh, random.
07:23:23 PM Nov 21st 2010
We do have a WMG and Moment of Awesome for sports, so maybe its not a mistake. I don't really care though.
05:58:52 AM Jan 14th 2012
No longer. I got it re-locked in Ask The Tropers.
06:31:56 PM Nov 12th 2010
Note: the person who made the non-ptitle vs. of this page redirect to itself, rather than to here, is a genius. All we need to do now is put it on the Cut List, and this index will get a lot more private.
12:14:17 AM Oct 22nd 2010
Those three note banners... does it bother anybody else? I personally think it makes the top a bit too cluttered.
12:18:41 PM Oct 23rd 2010
The only one that we could remove is the YMMV one, but I am wondering why that is here while the red flaming banner says to only put examples here. I will go to the YMMV index for help.
05:47:10 PM Oct 29th 2010
You did good kid, real good. It's a lot less cluttered now. :)
11:06:02 AM Nov 1st 2010
Actually I didn't do anything. The mods must have read what you said. I was too slow.
02:25:32 PM Sep 25th 2010
Is there a way to display the alt-text for the XKCD example "You think it's so legendarily bad that you'll torrent it and sit through it just for the kitschy nerd cred - I, too once thought as you did."?
04:59:15 PM Oct 5th 2010
Maybe that could be the caption.
09:16:03 PM Sep 24th 2010
personally I wonder when Fast Eddie will lock the whole page due to 'Too Much Negativity'
11:04:22 AM Sep 26th 2010
But this page is in too good condition to be cut by such a reasonable moderator.
01:06:13 AM Sep 24th 2010
Why was "Sports" completely nuked? Some of it was subjective crap, but a lot of it wasn't. For example, Ryan Leaf generally is considered to be the greatest example of an NFL draft bust, and usually shows up at the top of lists of NFL draft busts over the years.
03:51:51 AM Sep 24th 2010
edited by Glowsquid
Sections about not-fiction things are considered out of the focus on the site by the admins, which is why the Crowning Moment pages for Real Life and War were cut.
06:19:34 PM Oct 2nd 2010
What about software?
06:44:31 PM Oct 2nd 2010
Yeah, that page was useful.
10:42:42 AM Oct 4th 2010
Why was Toys not cut? Most of it could be saved by making a trope about dangerous toys.
01:52:06 PM Oct 4th 2010
Most of the Toys entries really are about defective and dangertous products, yeah. But I guess Toy was kept because a few lines (Transformers, G.I. Joe) have some sort of storytelling with the toy themselves (character bios, pack-in mini comics), as basic as it may be.
05:03:11 PM Oct 5th 2010
Actually the Crowning Moment Real Life and World War 2 have been restored. What about this pages software page?
03:49:54 AM Oct 6th 2010
I thought that was just a disgruntled editor adding them back, but look like Fast Eddie himself approved that, someone should ask him...

I checked and it seems all the deleted subpages (Cars, Sports, Software) have had their history lost because of the recent page history wipe. Bah.
08:19:53 PM Oct 15th 2010
But why was Software cut?
06:36:39 PM Jun 1st 2012
edited by AnonymousMcCartneyfan
The software relating to entertainment is mostly covered under Video Games. The rest is outside the scope of this wiki.

ETA: I mean, we were listing pop-up ads as a genre there...
01:53:55 PM Sep 13th 2010

No listing entire series that are still in production!

This is supposed to judge complete works. We may have to make allowances for Missing Episodes, but there is no way that the work is complete if it is still in production.

Early Installment Weirdness and It Gets Better are known phenomena, and it often takes time for a serial work to find its style. A work may abruptly cease to be Horrible if the quality improves midway.

This probably should apply to living, active creators as well.

Of course, if this rule is put in action, it will throw the Comics section in chaos. But overall, it should improve the quality of this section.
01:04:48 AM Sep 24th 2010
edited by Bass
EDIT: removed
01:55:28 AM Aug 23rd 2010
I've been doing some thinking lately and I wanted to ask this question.

Since this wiki forbids Complaining About Shows You Don't Like, how did this trope ever get off the ground in the first place?
02:14:18 AM Aug 23rd 2010
You can bitch about shows in certain topics (Adaptation Decay being an obvious example), it's just that Fast Eddie doesn't want it rampant where your hatred of a show bleeds through on neutral tropes.
03:52:22 AM Aug 23rd 2010
Well, actually, this was created around the same time Complaining About Shows You Don't Like allowed bitching (it was even in the /Main namespace). But yeah, now it exist mostly because of Grandfather Clause more than anything else.
04:04:15 AM Aug 23rd 2010
I have been taught elsewhere that appeals to "traditions" or history are fallacious reasoning.

So if we are keeping this trope here because of how old it is, isn't that fallacious reasoning?
04:32:33 AM Aug 23rd 2010
edited by Glowsquid
I don't know, in the TRS link I posted above, Fast Eddie said he doesn't think he can cut the whole index at this point and so the best we can do is limit any further wicks. Of course you can still argue for the deletion.
04:47:23 AM Aug 23rd 2010
I can think of a ton of other pages that are a lot worse than this page.
06:56:48 AM Aug 23rd 2010
Sorry, but I do not see how other pages being worse is relevant. I am talking about this index, not other pages.
04:27:28 PM Aug 23rd 2010
My point is why does this page have you pissed at it?
10:42:18 PM Aug 7th 2010
edited by BNJC1
The new note bugs me.

Important Note: Merely finding somethings subject matter offensive is not enough to justify a work as So Bad It's Horrible. Just because it offends you doesn't mean it offends everyone else. It has to fail to appeal to anyone to deserve a place here.

Some people, as hard to image, like some of the works on here, so by that logic there would be almost no examples.
10:46:50 PM Aug 7th 2010
edited by AnonymousMcCartneyfan

Now, the ideal for this particular trope (assuming no one kills it on us) is for there to be as few examples as we can reasonably get away with. We do want to rule out works with known serious fanbases; just because it's not aimed at our demographic doesn't mean it's bad.

And we do want to try not to list works simply because they turn our stomach — a point that was made before but has never quite stuck.

But that disclaimer really is too restrictive — if no one at all liked it, it probably wouldn't get published...

11:19:05 PM Aug 7th 2010
Thanks for clarifying on that.
02:19:57 PM Nov 20th 2011
edited by SamMax
Maybe a description that says that there are so few people who liked it that they're extremely low in number?
05:05:05 AM Jul 26th 2010
02:06:05 PM Aug 4th 2010
Seriously, guys, if you don't want this entire page to be cut, go to that link.
03:09:29 PM Jul 14th 2010
Why do more and more categories have examples put in alphabetic order? It serves no purpose other than making it more difficult and annoying to look for new additions.
03:40:38 PM Jul 14th 2010
Consistency I guess. Beside, checking the history button doesn't take all that much more time.
05:04:39 AM Jul 26th 2010
edited by Glowsquid
edit:nvm, meant to post this as its own section.
09:01:33 PM Jul 3rd 2010
I think we should bring back the Cars and Software section and add a Food section.
01:01:30 PM Jul 12th 2010
Definitely. Else it would be censorship.
12:07:08 AM Nov 19th 2010
edited by billybobfred
Software, maybe. Cars and food, definitely not.

When's the last time you saw a trope in your dinner?

edit: and look at me, not looking at dates before i post. you totally still cared about this, i'm sure.
09:55:51 AM Jul 3rd 2010
Why isn't the image of of this page replaced even though Star Wars Holiday Special isn't listed anywhere in So Bad, It's Horrible?
10:04:27 AM Jul 3rd 2010
Because anything that's usually expected to be the "Worst of the worst" usually qualifies for So Bad, It's Good instead.
05:38:03 PM Jul 3rd 2010
But that would mean that the image of this page is mismatched a bit.
01:03:35 PM Jul 12th 2010
The image more or less illustrates the trope rather than providing an example. In my opinion it should be an example, anyway.
12:11:06 PM Jun 14th 2010
(note: I know there are already two other sections discussing the removal of Cars Sports and Software, but for some reason the system won't let me reply without starting a new section)Yet another example of forumers ruining it for tropers. We shouldn't even have a frigging cutlist, since the only thing that should really be on it is the forums since the only people who really use them anyway are the people who whine and bitch and generally just want to get rid of all the fun articles. Why the hell do we let these people run the asylum? I thought TV Tropes was above this kind of backroom politicking. evidently not. So much for TV Tropes being the progressive wiki. How about instead of a cutlist, we use the actual page's discussion page? IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?
12:14:02 PM Jun 14th 2010
*plays world's smallest violin*
07:19:43 AM Dec 17th 2011
Troll somewhere else, Komodin.
02:04:30 AM Jun 14th 2010
The main page looks really cluttered here, but I can't even fathom how I could rearrange the text here so it looks cleaner. Any ideas?
08:55:22 PM Jun 14th 2010
I don't know if it looks cleaner, but I did do a little work on the front page... Broke a Wall of Text or two, that sort of thing.
02:42:09 AM Jun 13th 2010
edited by
If there was a So Bad, It's Horrible section for TV Tropes, then the decision to delete Cars, Software, and Sports without any discussion what so ever would go there. Same with the nuking of I Am Not Making This Up. Yet another example of forumers ruining it for tropers. We shouldn't even have a frigging cutlist, since the only thing that should really be on it is the forums since the only people who really use them anyway are the people who whine and bitch and generally just want to get rid of all the fun articles. Why the hell do we let these people run the asylum? I thought TV Tropes was above this kind of backroom politicking. evidently not. So much for TV Tropes being the progressive wiki. How about instead of a cutlist, we use the actual page's discussion page? IS THAT SO MUCH TO ASK?
02:46:52 AM Jun 13th 2010
04:29:55 AM Jun 13th 2010
My god, will people just let that bloody article rest already? It's like the TV tropes equivalent of Princess Diana, people are gonna find any excuse to keep it in the spotlight.
04:34:05 AM Jun 13th 2010
I Am Not Making This Up wasn't a trope. It never was a trope. It will never be a trope. And people used it while describing every single scene in every single story. It had to die for the good of the herd.
06:56:35 AM Jun 14th 2010
edited by Iaculus
Except that Princess Diana was not entirely devoted to mocking a mindless, deservedly obscure failure of a human being.

... We think.
07:06:34 AM Jun 14th 2010
IANMTU was a loss, yes, but we've moved on from there and there were reasons for its removal. People kept trying to use it to refer to things which actually had a reasonably sensible premise, not to mention the needless potholes. Its a shame then that people will not let it rest. Its dead, people. Move on.
11:08:55 PM Jun 30th 2010
I've never really looked in the Cars and Software sections, but I did like to browse the SBIH Sports section once in awhile. The discussion page didn't really have a whole lot of disagreement, I personally didn't come across any entries that I disagreed with, and (most importantly) I've never come across any sports entry or sports-related trope that potholed into the SBIH section, so it was mainly kept off to the side on its own.
12:16:37 PM Jun 12th 2010
edited by VideoGameCrack
I want to contest Windy X Windam. I just looked at Gamestats and found this:


The gamer's score is 7.5. Not really something you'd define as horrible.
05:53:17 PM Jun 12th 2010
Look at game faqs low average score. Its pretty low and based an more reviews.
05:37:53 AM Jun 14th 2010
The reason I added it to the list is because several gamers (including that guy whose name rhymes with "palm") who had imported Windy before its US release had nothing but bad things to say about it (stiff controls, bland graphics, a very bad case of Artificial Stupidity, etc.) YouTube videos of the game in action haven't convinced them otherwise.
02:28:23 AM Apr 12th 2010
Would it be a bad idea to have a subpage of So Bad its Horrible Hardware ( Computer hardware? ) Stuff like the Virtual Boy and Commodore Max Machine and eMachines as well as bad first and third party controllers, and other accessories ( Printers, Drives, Keyboards, etc. Thus cleaning up the Software page a bit ( tbe 1541 and eMachines really are hardware. )
06:06:16 AM Mar 25th 2010
I perfered the old white text on black background to this new verison.
06:09:21 PM Mar 5th 2010
What happened to the other page? I tried to fix the link, and it just is not there anymore. Whats going on?
08:27:48 AM Mar 10th 2010
Do you mean what happened to the old discussion page? It's still available as archived discussion (look to the your right, it's the button next to the parachute).
07:57:52 PM Mar 18th 2010
I mean the other horrible page.
03:57:05 AM Mar 20th 2010
Oh that. It was deleted.
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