Discussion DarthWiki / SoBadItsHorrible

This is for works that are hated by their audience near-unanimously.

I'm honestly inclined to agree. It used to be funny, now it's just mean-spirited and more rant list if anything else. I honestly wouldn't miss it if the trope got cut.

I'm leaning towards Live-Action TV, since I have a feeling that the horrible parts comes from the actual live-action footage.

Movies would go on the Film page, and shows would go on either the Anime, Live-Action TV, or Western Animation page.

The Star Wars Holiday Special is generally considered So Bad, It's Good; it's not an example, but the chart depicts the idea well.

It was cut because there wasn't an objective way to judge the quality of voice acting like there was for a work. Here's the thread where it was decided to cut the page, so you can read their reasons there.

"[The Fanfiction section was removed] due to almost always involving weapons-grade Rule 34 and thus falling afoul of the content policy"

"[one of the background images was] of Applejack Bound and Gagged was from a Rule 34 image, with visible genitalia."

Well, okay then.

Not to mention that, in my opinion, most, if not all of the entries, fall way closer to So Bad It's Good rather than this trope.

"[The Fanfiction section was removed] due to almost always involving weapons-grade Rule 34 and thus falling afoul of the content policy"

"[one of the background images was] of Applejack Bound and Gagged was from a Rule 34 image, with visible genitalia."

Well, okay then.

Not to mention that, in my opinion, most, if not all of the entries, fall way closer to So Bad It's Good rather than this trope.

No. If the flamebait banner is seen on a page, it shouldn't be listed at all.

Also, Shadow the Hedgehog doesn't even count. I'd say the laughably edgy writing combined with the fact it actually has decent gameplay propels it more into So Bad, It's Good.

This is why this topic's flame bait.

Considering their massive view counts, the subs to those channels, and overwhelming positive response they tend to get from anyone that isn't a caustic critic...

No, they don't qualify.

Short answer, no. Long answer, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. Please read this page in order to understand the wiki's policy on porn.

Fair enough, just curious

I fear that it would end up looking like the defunct fanfiction section of the very page we are discussing on. See the Permanent Red Link Club for all the necessary information. Personally I would take it to The Fetish Fuel Wiki and recommend it if it turns out that it is of good quality and does not violate The Content Policy And The 5 P Circuit (which is doable as there is a hentai anime on Anime & Manga )

I don't think we should do that. For starters, that would be unpleasant. Furthermore, "there's a market for all types of deviancy (no matter how small a niche it is)"; there's a whole Rule of the Internet dedicated to this. I doubt any instance of what you're talking about is objectively bad.

1 "Albeit" shows slight contrast like "but". "spicy albeit cold fries"

2 No matter how much a niche may deserve insulting, we are not to offend the niche; that's the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. However, this atrocity does not appear to have any genuine fans whatsoever. Its "fans" just "like" it for agreeing with them, and in truth, even they rightly despise Billy the Heretic. In fact, a lot of its niche probably doesn't want to be associated with Billy the Heretic. It is objectively horrible!

See the Permanent Red Link Club.

I am saddened by this, like I have just stumbled upon a broken statue of liberty in a messed up world I thought was far removed from our own. We no longer have a list of fanfic we can dare people to read as internet initiation.

I guess it makes sense though. And I guess there's always the livejournal communities that also seek out bad fanfic for that.

How sad. I found a very bad fanfic of Through the Looking Glass with Sonic the Hedgehog instead of Alice. No more than a Cut And Paste Translation — replace every instance of "Alice" with "Sonic" and that's basically it. Chapter 9 is titled "Queen Sonic" (it should actually be "King Sonic"), and Chapter 11 is exactly the same as the Looking-Glass version. It deserves to be in there.

Fanfiction that is not merely bad but simply lazy should be left to languish in obscurity. It's not as if there's anything we need to warn people about, unlike paid media. And find-replace works with no creativity at all should be treated as non-existent, because in a sense they are.

Most of those sites were laughing stocks (or at least had known bias causing certian reviews to be laughable, like the blind hate for anything Sonic) long before GG was even thought of .

This isn't the place to talk about corruption or whatever. Anyway, it's just saying that you can't add something here if it's positively reviewed by a lot of major websites. No matter how bad you think those sites are, they're not going to be able to make something legitimately terrible (at least to qualify for this page) look good (and since a lot of people put their trust in these reviews, even bad games reviewed positively will end up getting a fanbase thanks to them, thus disqualifying those here anyway). Also, even if IGN is "corrupt" or whatever, one site isn't going to result in something being added here, especially if it already has good user ratings on sites like Metacritic (even though those are even more biased and unreliable) or if it has a legitimate following.

Let's not add a GamerGate example.

Yeah, I can speak from experience and say that GG is a such a polarizing issue on this site that it would just lead to a shitstorm.

We should probably emphasize a bit more that it was the hardware rather than the software that's Horrible.

Horrible.Anime And Manga?

Well, Horrible.Web Original is a perma-redlink.

It doesn't belong in New Media, so I was thinking of putting it in "Other," but even then it looks weird.

Wait, aren't You Tube Poops web originals? Should it be removed from the page?

Might want to ask about it on Ask The Tropers.

Eh, I'd think no on them. "No good reviews" can be a sign of Critical Dissonance, plus you'd need to describe in detail how the work is bad.

but I meant no good reviews from IMDB, plus with Danes w/out Clue both the actors apologized for making the movie and the only thing I found was saying it as the worst thing to ever come from the Netherlands

Go ask on the film page. Honestly "Danes without a Clue" sounds like a candidate.

Yes.

There seems to be a malfunction in the Flame Bait flag. Might want to report it in the Wiki Tech Wish List.

I put it back again.

I think the opening paragraph in IGN's review for "Rock'em Sock'em Robots" on the Game Boy Advance (http://www.ign.com/articles/2006/12/14/rock-em-sock-em-robots-review-2) says it best:

"Ask some friends to name the worst games of all time, and you'll probably hear the same titles: Superman for the N64, E.T. for the Atari 2600, Night Trap for the Sega CD. But these aren't really the worst games ever made, they're just the most notoriously bad. The worst games tend to come and go relatively unnoticed, insulting just the few poor saps that bought them before being forgotten entirely."

You can remove them yourself you know! Just be sure to give an explanation for why you deleted them!

I already did, and my explanation is in my first post here.

I think the commercial success requirement could stand to be nuanced. If something is successful for the first week of sales and then has a gigantic dropoff as negative word-of-mouth spread, or if used copies of it have extremely low value and clog online and retail stores (as is the case with Superman 64), I think it should still be elligible for SBIH. Beside, doesn't the Critic-Proof writeup implies that the work has to be liked to be consumers? That's certainly not the case with Superman 64.

I agree with removing Daikatana, though.

I suppose there could be some leeway with the "commercial success" part. I left E.T. for the Atari 2600 on the page since, even though it sold a lot of copies, about 80% of those were eventually returned.

I just checked VG Chartz and found out that Superman 64 sold about 330,000 copies in the US (which would make the game a mild commercial success - though definitely not a platinum seller by any stretch). I suppose the game could be re-added to the Video Game page, but mention should be made of this in the game entry, along with an explanation of the massive number of used games clogging retail stores and websites. Otherwise, it runs a risk of violating the page rules.

Just for clarity: "Critical Dissonance" is when a work was panned by critics but liked by the general public. "Critic Proof" simply means a work was panned by both critics and the general public but was still commercially successful. At least, that's how I always interpreted it (the two pages are pretty blurry, actually).

VG Chartz essentialy make its number out of thin air and shouldn't be used as a source for anything, ever.

For what it's worth, Eric Caen stated Superman 64 "sold very well and was profitable for us", but that they ultimately lost money due to cancelling the PS version. He doesn't give precise numbers, though.

Actually, given that Blender had a pretty large subscription base, it by default does not belong on this page. Similarly, we really don't know how popular the restaurants are in their respective areas, so they don't belong here either. I'm going to delete them right now.

On the topic of Nello's: One negative critical review (for all we know, the restaurant itself might've just been having a bad day, and given the continuous nature of restaurant operation, restaurant owners do learn from complaints and negative critical reviews) and a 4.9/10 user rating does not qualify a restaurant for this trope. Nor do unethical business practices (despite the ridiculous prices they charge, they may very well use perfectly fresh ingredients and rare/fancy food items). At the same time, the Captain John's example doesn't fit this trope, because it lasted for a pretty long time and was actually quite popular. It was only recently (due to financial problems, etc.) that the restaurant significantly declined in quality. Which would make it more a Real Life example of Jumping the Shark than this trope.

A good restaurant example would be one that was open for three months but got repeatedly negative reviews from both the press and customers, numerous health violations, etc. and was thus immediately shut down. If the restaurant is still operating to this day and lasted for a reasonably long time (ie. more than a few years), then it probably doesn't belong here.

That's a shame cause i found a restaurant that is rather infamous. Even Gordon Ramsey found it horrible.

I know the restaurant that Lady Stardust is referring to and I think that one deserves some kind of mention because that was the first time Gordon Ramsey gave up on a restaurant.

I also believe the one in question involving Gordon Ramsey, would deserve the mention. It's become a pop cultural meme for it's infamy. Considering the supposed following background events of the establishment, there's little left to claim the opinion is a particularly controversial one. Unless one just wanted to white knight for the place I suppose, but then why. The owners were so bad, they might as well been reality tv's restaurant equivalent of a paid actor Jerry Springer's Show guest. My "that's subjective" levels have some limits to respect.

Do you mean Amy's Baking Company? That place is bad and everybody knows it.

Amy's Baking Company suffers from terrible food (only the grocery store deserts were good and even those occasionally have flies in them according to reviews), high unemployment rate, and two bosses who would make Mr. Krabs cringe. [[Here's the episode in question. They've also had an epic Internet Backlash (which the owners made worse) due to the episode and has become a negative meme. That combined with a huge majority of negative reviews, might make them count.

That works. Although it should be mentioned that, at least according to The Huffington Post, Gordon Ramsey does plan to revisit the place in the S7 opener. At which we'll see whether or not Sammy and Amy have learned from this whole debacle. If they have, then the entry will need to be updated accordingly, otherwise we're just beating a dead horse.

They also harshly responded to every bit of criticism on Yelp, even accusing some of the reviewers of making up the fact that they've eaten there at all. Even if the actual food improves, I think it should still remain as an example of a horribly run business.

[deleted]

Could you put fanfiction in the "Other" page as well? I don't like that Fast Eddie removed the fanfiction section. Shame. I want to see some bad fanfiction.

When a section is removed, that isn't a signal to go sneak it into other pages.

I see that it has been removed. Thank you.

...I think they still have a fanbase, regardless of what professional reviewers think of them. So I say no.

I might not be that well liked but this could work.

I think the Restaurants thing would work. I think something similar to Websites was once done as "Web Original", but it was banished to the Permanent Red Link Club/

Because of your potty mouth, I assume.

^ :/

Basically, it exists to give the people who're going to bitch anyway a closed off place to do it away from the main pages. It's not a perfect solution, mind, but it does help keep the moaning and whining off the main pages.

Thanks, I love to be labeled as a person who's "moaning and whining" while we're trying to keep this trope afloat and from starting flame wars. Really keeps up the morale.

Plus this page is pretty fun to read. Heartbreaker, learn to have some fun, sheesh. "shameless attempt to justify keeping a page that counters the goal of TV Tropes" For god's sake, man. It's just a fun little website, not some important encyclopedia, chill out.

Er.... so it's okay to explain why you love things, but not okay to explain why you hate things? I mean, I understand what you're trying to say here, but there's a difference between "expressing dislike" and "bashing". -.-

And I like being snarky and sarcastic! :)

The page says "work" 23 times, so I'm pretty sure that we can only really apply this to entire shows or specials. Episodes are technically only a segment of a work.

Individual crappy episodes would more go under Dethroning Moment Of Suck.

(Ignore this, machine was acting funny again)

And, for individual episodes that are universally hated, Wall Banger

Same problem we had with Web Original: a lot of them were apparently subject to bashing authors and having an overload of examples due to Sturgeon's Law. There's just way too many horrible fics to keep track.

Still be better if there was warning...

Yeah, the deletion came out of nowhere.

If there was author bashing, why not just cut that out? Couldn't have been too hard...

Also, I don't think there were that many fics on the pages, at least compared to the massive amount of fanfiction on the internet.

Can we even contest the deletion? Or once it's on the Permanent Red Link Club, there's no going back?

I've been editing those pages for a while, and there really wasn't a lot of author bashing. What there was could have been cut – I was talking to Anonymous Mc Cartneyfan about removing some of the more biased new entries. Kind of annoying that they completely cut a bunch of pages without warning, especially when we'd argued about it and decided democratically against it before.

Yeah, I think it needs to be put back, with the alleged author bashing being limited to "He also wrote this other bad Fan Fic", or "This is not him at his best" if they're usually at least average, if not good. Anything beyond that should be kept to a bare minimum. And "Rude Author" should not be listed as part of a work's badness, regardless of whether or not it actually is, though outright insulting the audience can be listed if it is within the work itself.

Yes, this may seem obvious to you, but As You Know, there are some people who do not read the rules, and thus, I felt it needed to be said.

I agree with Sam Max, Nicholas Onimura and Pulpo Oscuro. Better to warn the idiots who persist with author-bashing instead of geting rid of the whole page.

I agree. That page was too good for a laugh at idoicy to deserve a deletion..

And it seems someone wants to make a new one, but is redlinked as of this writing. What do you think?

I deleted that. If it was cut by admins, there was a reason for it. Creating a new one may very well just create the same problems. I wasn't happy to see either the web original or fan fic pages go, but if it's what the admins feels is for the greater good of the site, then I respect that decision and think it should be kept off. If the page could have been rewritten to be less about author bashing, then it would have been rewritten, not deleted.

I personally think we should restore it, but remove the author bashing and lock the pages so that new entries can only be added if an admin approves.

You can see the fanfic pages if you go in the history.

Uh, if we have fanfic recommendations, it makes very little sense that we don't warn people about terrible fanfiction. Just don't allow people to actually comment on the subjects by locking it until you get a recommendation on a new entry.

That doesn't sound like a bad idea. I'm all for it!

Agreed. It was one of my favorite pages too! If people can know about all the good fanfic out there, they have a right to know the ones to keep away from!

I also agree. I also have another idea. If the admins won't allow another So Bad Its Horrible Fanfic page to be made, we could always just make a wiki for it. The Fanfic pages aren't Lost Forever , you can still see the former contents of the pages if you go in the history of the pages. All we'd need to do is create a wiki and copy the info from the history and paste onto the wiki.

The content of these fanfics is not in line with our new policy, and linking to them will cause us to lose our ads which are the source of our financial support. We had a very good reason for deleting them; we need to keep the site afloat.

Sounds fair to me, though it was said that it was due to author bashing, but I suppose they overlap. A separate website dedicated to these entries with the standards of So Bad, It's Horrible could work, I suppose, though. It's probably the closest to being restored we'll get, if nothing else.

There's a wiki for Troper Tales, so I don't see any reason why we couldn't make a wiki for the So Bad Its Horrible Fanfic section. We could use wikia to make the wiki.

Or, alternate idea, there can be a seperate wiki made for So Bad It's Horrible in general! That way TV Tropes doesn't need to be home to this kind of flame war.

That could work, depending on the circumstances. It is a subject to quite a few threats of deletion after all, which have been averted, but they may go through with it one day.

Well, if they did it Fetish Fuel, then doing it to SBIH would take the edge off things. Plus the wiki could go into more detail with individual articles for each work in question. Keeps drama off the website, gives more room for explanation, and ultimately serves a better purpose on its own site than it does on TV Tropes.

Best of all it could be formatted so that way there could be sub-articles for each of the parameters of SBIH (i.e. music, film, live action TV, etc). Those articles could list each work, give a brief explanation for the reason why it's listed and then link the title to an article that veers off into greater detail.

I don't really know wikia, but that sounds like a good idea to me.

Anyone that does know it willing to help out?

You might want to post this idea in the fourms. That way, more people will read the idea and maybe someone who knows Wikia will help.

Sections about not-fiction things are considered out of the focus on the site by the admins, which is why the Crowning Moment pages for Real Life and War were cut.

What about software?

Yeah, that page was useful.

Why was Toys not cut? Most of it could be saved by making a trope about dangerous toys.

Most of the Toys entries really are about defective and dangertous products, yeah. But I guess Toy was kept because a few lines (Transformers, GI Joe) have some sort of storytelling with the toy themselves (character bios, pack-in mini comics), as basic as it may be.

Actually the Crowning Moment Real Life and World War 2 have been restored. What about this pages software page?

I thought that was just a disgruntled editor adding them back, but look like Fast Eddie himself approved that, someone should ask him...

I checked and it seems all the deleted subpages (Cars, Sports, Software) have had their history lost because of the recent page history wipe. Bah.

But why was Software cut?

The software relating to entertainment is mostly covered under Video Games. The rest is outside the scope of this wiki.

ETA: I mean, we were listing pop-up ads as a genre there...

Please don't. Use Wall Banger for that, clearly marking where it went downhill. A Horrible work is listed as a whole and ideally has no highlights.

There might be an exception if what you are referring to is a comic book, given that I haven't yet figured out what one complete unit of comic book is. Still, even then, make it darn clear what parts you are referring to.

I have been away too long... I agree with this suggestion — that, or make a separate manga page. We had "Kiss Players" listed in anime for a while. Since it isn't, that is extra incentive.

That page is locked. See Locked Pages.

What are you talking about? It's still available for editing, unless you were referring to something else entirely. Plus, my problem was that the page wasn't even appearing, which, as I know now, is a result of the computer acting weird.

It's done. 8 to cut the page, 36 against.

Yeah, we're good.

Thank goodness for that! I LOVE this page!!

Seeing as it was removed from Permanent Red Link Club, yeah. Though I don't know if there was a change of attitude toward Sport being part of the site's missions, or if it just is something, uh, random.

We do have a WMG and Moment Of Awesome for sports, so maybe its not a mistake. I don't really care though.

No longer. I got it re-locked in Ask The Tropers.

He hasn't attacked Western Animation, Anime, Tabletop Games, Literature, Professional Wrestling, Toys (at least, not in a toy factory), and while he does have a Webcomic, he has yet to attack either Comic Books or Newspaper Comics. Oh, and although he has made some terrible mods, he has not been involved with the development team of any Video Games.

Anything I got wrong?

Actually, he has attacked literature, Western Animation, anime to some extent, tabletop games, and he would attack video games if he ever got around to it.

Sorry for using such a negative site, but it is an effective way to get lots of information about CWC pretty fast.

Oh...okay.

I would rather like to see Chris-Chan professional wrestling, though.

*plays world's smallest violin*

Troll somewhere else, Komodin.

Understood.

Now, the ideal for this particular trope (assuming no one kills it on us) is for there to be as few examples as we can reasonably get away with. We do want to rule out works with known serious fanbases; just because it's not aimed at our demographic doesn't mean it's bad.

And we do want to try not to list works simply because they turn our stomach — a point that was made before but has never quite stuck.

But that disclaimer really is too restrictive — if no one at all liked it, it probably wouldn't get published...

Thanks for clarifying on that.

Maybe a description that says that there are so few people who liked it that they're extremely low in number?

I suppose it was cut because the mods thought it could spark off a flame war. Or something was wrong with the page, so they cut it out.

I agree that a lock was sufficent for the purpose of ending a Flame War and that edits my request are a fair trade.

People abused So Bad It's Horrible a lot and the trope itself can easily start a flame war. So all white pages that used to redirect to here are now cut.

It was cut today... but It Got Better.

Who revived it? The cut was necessary; this is nothing but a bash-fest.

I don't get it. Only the ptitle link works. If they cut the main redirects, why not cut the ptitle too? And it showed up on the Permanent Red Link Club.

It was some random glitch with all pictures. Its fixed now.

Definitely. Else it would be censorship.

Software, maybe. Cars and food, definitely not.

When's the last time you saw a trope in your dinner?

edit: and look at me, not looking at dates before i post. you totally still cared about this, i'm sure.

The only one that we could remove is the YMMV one, but I am wondering why that is here while the red flaming banner says to only put examples here. I will go to the YMMV index for help.

You did good kid, real good. It's a lot less cluttered now. :)

Actually I didn't do anything. The mods must have read what you said. I was too slow.

Maybe that could be the caption.

But this page is in too good condition to be cut by such a reasonable moderator.

EDIT: removed

You can bitch about shows in certain topics (Adaptation Decay being an obvious example), it's just that Fast Eddie doesn't want it rampant where your hatred of a show bleeds through on neutral tropes.

Well, actually, this was created around the same time Complaining About Shows You Dont Like allowed bitching (it was even in the /Main namespace). But yeah, now it exist mostly because of Grandfather Clause more than anything else.

I have been taught elsewhere that appeals to "traditions" or history are fallacious reasoning.

So if we are keeping this trope here because of how old it is, isn't that fallacious reasoning?

I don't know, in the TRS link I posted above, Fast Eddie said he doesn't think he can cut the whole index at this point and so the best we can do is limit any further wicks. Of course you can still argue for the deletion.

I can think of a ton of other pages that are a lot worse than this page.

Sorry, but I do not see how other pages being worse is relevant. I am talking about this index, not other pages.

My point is why does this page have you pissed at it?

Seriously, guys, if you don't want this entire page to be cut, go to that link.

Consistency I guess. Beside, checking the history button doesn't take all that much more time.

edit:nvm, meant to post this as its own section.

Because anything that's usually expected to be the "Worst of the worst" usually qualifies for So Bad, It's Good instead.

But that would mean that the image of this page is mismatched a bit.

The image more or less illustrates the trope rather than providing an example. In my opinion it should be an example, anyway.

*plays world's smallest violin*

My god, will people just let that bloody article rest already? It's like the TV tropes equivalent of Princess Diana, people are gonna find any excuse to keep it in the spotlight.

I Am Not Making This Up wasn't a trope. It never was a trope. It will never be a trope. And people used it while describing every single scene in every single story. It had to die for the good of the herd.

Except that Princess Diana was not entirely devoted to mocking a mindless, deservedly obscure failure of a human being.

... We think.

IANMTU was a loss, yes, but we've moved on from there and there were reasons for its removal. People kept trying to use it to refer to things which actually had a reasonably sensible premise, not to mention the needless potholes. Its a shame then that people will not let it rest. Its dead, people. Move on.

I've never really looked in the Cars and Software sections, but I did like to browse the SBIH Sports section once in awhile. The discussion page didn't really have a whole lot of disagreement, I personally didn't come across any entries that I disagreed with, and (most importantly) I've never come across any sports entry or sports-related trope that potholed into the SBIH section, so it was mainly kept off to the side on its own.

I don't know if it looks cleaner, but I did do a little work on the front page... Broke a Wall of Text or two, that sort of thing.

Look at game faqs low average score. Its pretty low and based an more reviews.

The reason I added it to the list is because several gamers (including that guy whose name rhymes with "palm") who had imported Windy before its US release had nothing but bad things to say about it (stiff controls, bland graphics, a very bad case of Artificial Stupidity, etc.) You Tube videos of the game in action haven't convinced them otherwise.

Do you mean what happened to the old discussion page? It's still available as archived discussion (look to the your right, it's the button next to the parachute).

I mean the other horrible page.

Oh that. It was deleted.