The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

Finished off several of the works I had been meaning to get to. Work and holidays, busy busy.

Pages have been cutlisted, locked, tagged and listed in the Announcements thread as appropriate.

Someone has just flagged Rules.

(Scans description)

There's enough there to explain why the flagger is worried. Might merit review, depending on the usual criteria.

Hello old friends! I flagged something for you. I am sorry.

It's Goudere Bishoujo Nagihara Sora, and while I get that it's a satire, and found it pretty funny... it's really pushing it in terms of content. I'd qualify it as Eiken-esque. There's a graphic bukkake scene ending every chapter, for starters. Not to mention that its treatment of other satirical topics, like lolicon, ensured a revolving door of fan-translators. It could probably use a looking at by someone who's not me, though I'd be happy to go through it again on my little Manga-Reader-app and take notes.

Edit was because I spelled the damn manga wrong.

edited 30th Dec '14 6:45:41 PM by LargoQuagmire

I've read up to chapter 10, and it seems fine. Certainly nowhere near the level of Eiken.

There are no children characters, there is no nudity, the aforementioned bukkake isn't every chapter - I think it stops completely after chapter 7, but as mentioned, I've only read to chapter 10 - and is always a substitute anyway (milk, water, etc.). There are two older men (a father of a side character and his peer) who express some interest in pettanko, while lolicon has gone on unmentioned at least to the point I've read; the main character shows no clear preference aside from the designated love interest (who is by all appearances the same as as him, which seems to be highschoolish).

The series bores me however, hence why I stopped at chapter ten. From what I can see though, it is not pedo-pandering, and it's certainly not porn. Ecchi yes, porn no.

From the few chapters that I skimmed through, that was how I saw it as well.

I might have to reread and figure out which chap was the lolicon one, then, bc it'd be pretty hard to forget once you saw it...

Thankfully, the series is rather short. Also it does a weird Mood Whiplash thing for like three chapters when it looks like Sargeant Crazypants Girl is going to try and leave Generic Male Anime Lead and I'm supposed to care because...?

edited 31st Dec '14 8:40:24 AM by LargoQuagmire

Having read the whole thing the only mention of 'lolicon' was to specificly say he wasn't one and the so called 'test' wasn't one as well. No actual nudes except for some gags on censorship and Barbie Doll Anatomy with a guy trying to get the girls to pick out the nipples they want in the previous pages with said Barbie Doll Anatomy.

Honestly the thing is very tame compared to a lot of other ones that have been kept.

edited 31st Dec '14 2:12:59 PM by Memers

Started cleaning work on Endless World. (Which also needs to be namespaced over to manga, it's in main right now.) Broke with policy on trigger warnings in works descriptions to put one there, because that work is a bundle of triggers wrapped up in a box with a trigger pattern with a trigger on top. Edited trope list to add more accurate descriptions of the events within the story.

And done there (I hope): review, description, filled-out trope list so no one gets into that without being prepared.

I have alcohol, and I'm going to go take a look at Rules. Here's hoping for less rape this time around. (seriously, Yaoi Fangirls... speaking as a bisexual man that likes/writes yaoi-bara fusion and slash - wtf is with all the raping? Rape rape rape rape with rape with added rape with rape on top of rape on bottom of rape with rape and rape rape and rape rape with rape and more rape and a teaser of rape to come on more rape? What the hell is wrong with consensual sex anyway? It's not even like rape is required for angsty or conflicted sex, for a backstory of adequate emotional torment, for whatever. It's not like every story involving rape hasn't been written a hundred times already, sometimes by far better writers and far worse. It isn't even required for rough or violent sex, because there's people that do that without RAPING ANYONE (note the existence of both the SSC BDSM community and rolequeers) I get that reading about rape is a fetish and kink for some, and I'm not trying to be judgy on that, but I'm just... becoming a bit bummed out - no pun intended - that every written story about gay or bisexual guys hooking up has to somehow involve rape, either as the hookup itself or as the backstory or as whatever. And I hope this off-topic slightly drunken rant doesn't lead to a Flame War, I'm just... sick of it. And wishing the yaoi community could do better than featuring more rape than exists in even Real Life. )

Edit: Well, that was easy for now - all the links to the story on the Liquid Eros page linked are Error 404s. So Rules doesn't apparently even exist anymore, unless it's archived elsewhere.

edited 4th Jan '15 11:56:58 PM by RevolutionStone

I would think that Futari Ecchi should pretty much fall over the ban rules for porn. If something like the joy of sex can be banned, so should this, very graphic, very much intended for fapping work. (It can claim to be a 'instruction' guide all it wants, like the nudist magazines of the 50's and 60's claiming to be sports & rec mags.)

Futari Ecchi was found to be not porn a while ago. Apr 27th of some year, it's a pity the list doesn't actually list years. There was one devilhead, and three angels, so I don't think putting it through again will yield a different result.

I was the one who reported this: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/SexyGames Barely more than a stub, and smells like one of the finest examples of Porn Without Plot that I've seen in a while. Albeit a bit refreshing since it doesn't seem to involve anyone getting raped or similar, but it seems like it doesn't meet the standard of having any plot to speak of.

Also, I think the index it's from here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AdultsOnlyRating could use a lock. Unlike the Erotic Film and Erotic Literature indices, this tends to attract crappy stubs and plotless stuff. At the very least, it needs a better page like those indices have, but the inherent problem here is that there's very, very few AO-rated games that are anything but plotless pornfests - most game producers will happily cut to M-rated for plot games and the M rating is a fair bit more flexible than the R rating for movies is (e.g. unless you're literally packing your game with OTT pointless sex, or the entire point is people fucking, you're likely to pass by with an M, because it doesn't have the same "you can only say this word x number of times" or a Get Back in the Closet requirement or a limit on how much violence you can have before you pass out of bounds, like the R technically has, for example.), and in the case of Visual Novels with plot and the like, they'll go with the Japanese CERO rating usually, or stay unrated.

edited 6th Jan '15 11:33:11 PM by RevolutionStone

I'm not sure I'd apply Porn Without Plot to games (other than Visual Novels), since there can be a lot of meaningful content without plot.

That said, it sounds like your run-of-the-mill porn game.

We already dealt with the AO index. (By which I mean we took a bulldozer to most of it a while back.) Individual examples can be scorched as need be by the P5. Thing is, the majority of the index entries were created by one troper who adhered strictly to the letter of the rules as they existed at the time, which usually meant three Zero Context Examples and done.

edited 7th Jan '15 8:40:06 AM by Ramidel

I flagged Rules for being a YAOI universe, in the words of the creator of the trope page. The difference between Shounen-ai (Loveless, Gravitation, etc.) and straight up Yaoi are now very important for this site.

Could you elaborate?

Actually, no those differences aren't. We've passed plenty of Yaoi works, because of the existence of plot, because they aren't specifically pandering to pedophiles, and/or both.

(See the debate on the last page - hell, I wasn't even sure we should have kept Endless World because it walked right up to the line with the underage sex abuse content, but despite its disgusting, traumatizing content, it doesn't qualify as pandering to pedophiles - because that's not the intent of the depictions of abuse - and there's definitely a plot, even if it's one many of us don't like or want to forget.)

Point being? Something can be absolutely, utterly, abominably disgusting (e.g. Gorn and torture-porn horror movies like Saw and Hostel, Litchi Hikari Club), something can depict rape or horrible misogyny or abuse or the like (e.g. Game Of Thrones, Berserk), or even be from the perspective of a Villain Protagonist who's crossed the Moral Event Horizon laughing all the way (Lolita) and STILL not break the rules. What saves a work isn't our personal feelings about it, and to be honest, while there's a lot of yaoi works I don't like or support (mostly because of the genre's attitudes toward the Sexual Harassment and Rape Tropes for a lot of authors), most of those works, even the ones that feature those tropes, do not step as close to the line as the last work we debated, or as close to it as any of the works I've linked in this paragraph.

Also, we don't want to invoke Get Back in the Closet. There's nothing more "pornographic" about gay sex than heterosexual sex - a work entirely devoted to either with no plot is indeed porn. A work that features glorified underage characters for the purpose of pandering to pedophiles is indeed that no matter what gender the participants are. That said, a work that happens to involve gay sex and a plot deserves just as much consideration for a keep as a work that involves a lot of heterosexual sex and a plot. A work that refers to abuse of an underage person as exactly that and that treats it as a Moral Event Horizon should be given as much consideration no matter the gender of the abuser and the abused.

In short, I'm not defending yaoi and slash - both have a TON of problematic writers, and issues with tropes that need to be dealt with by actively discussing them. I am saying that the "difference" between "shonen-ai," "yaoi" and "slash" is kind of worthless now (the terms are interchangeable as of The New '10s), and the mere presence of (even graphic) sex doesn't make a work prima facie Porn Without Plot (if so, we need to trash a fuckton of even mainstream stuff for featuring heterosexual sex, never mind if it has a plot.)

And that is why we need to evaluate each one on its own merits, not just go "it's yaoi, so it doesn't belong here," or "it's a slash fic, of course it's for fangirls getting off, remove it." Because... yeah, that's kind of instituting homophobia as policy.

(And in that vein, I'm also for the unlocking of the Bara page if some serious plot works could be found in the genre and listed. Unfortunately, due to the demographic, writers in it often tend more toward Porn Without Plot because it's assumed, due to gender stereotyping, that only women like plot and men only want to get to the action with none of the plot. Annoying as hell for me personally, falling into the "bisexual male" demographic, liking actual plots in gay-themed work and yet at the same time liking equality and realism but not liking musclemen - so I fall somewhere in the twilight of "what genre am I really into, anyway?")

(I hope this was an okay post to make. I'm not on the P5, nor is my opinion official - I'm just a person trying to be helpful here and help out with the effort to keep things cool . That said, I'd hope the official opinion of the P5 is at least that hetero-themed and gay-themed works deserve same consideration as to whether to be kept or removed. :) )

BTW, I'm going through the yaoi index and looking for anything that could be problematic re 5P standards on its face. If I see anything that looks spectacularly troublesome or right on the line, I'll report it, then review it.

edited 7th Jan '15 11:51:08 PM by RevolutionStone

Flagged Niels because its tone seems excessively positive. The comic it describes depicts rape and black slavery as being funny, sexy and cute.

Listing the works I've gone through the trope list of up to "I" on the Yaoi index and decided whether to report or not to report with a reason why, for order purposes of what I need to review. I'll take on the rest of the list and start reviewing tomorrow - this is just for my purposes of keeping stuff in order.

Also, note that these comments aren't moral judgments - for example, if we were judging on offense to personal ethics, with how much I hate rape, Finder Series would be on the report list and Awkward Silence would be on the "not reporting this" list, because I'd personally rather see a consensual teenage romance than adults raping each other. That said, I'm going by the P5 rules.

Not reported (e.g. on the face not violating P5):

• Animal X: Seems everyone involved is of age, and from the trope list, it seems like a Kudzu Plot and What Do You Mean, It Wasn't Made on Drugs?, but a plot nonetheless.
• Banana Fish: Ash is at least 16 and presented as an adult within the context of the story, and the childhood abuse is seen as such and played as Rape as Drama. Definite, intricate plot.
• Blue Sheep Reverie: Fairly thin example list (needs some major love), but picture of main couple shows both to be drawn as adult men, and even with the thin example list, the plot seems deeper than Excuse Plot. Unless there's a side couple that's pedo or something, which nothing here mentions (short list, again) it's cool.
• Calling: Ages look at least 17-18 from pic on page, so no pedo issue. Plot seems a bit thin from example list of mostly Zero Context Examples (page needs some work) but there is, obviously, a plot.
• Challengers: Tatsumi is drawn a bit teenage-looking, but is a college freshman in the course of the story, which would mean he is 18-19, so it's not an extreme example of Older Than They Look. Plot seems to be melodrama + Slice of Life.
• Chintsubu: It's a Sex Comedy. Ages of the people involved (high schoolers) may be an issue, but we've passed American Pie and My Balls and this is similar. I think it's even been P5ed in the past and given a pass for exactly the reasons I mentioned, that despite the content, it's a Refuge in Audacity Widget Series that no one could seriously take as "real" porn.
• Crimson Spell: Everyone's of age, and a definite plot well beyond Excuse Plot.
• A Cruel God Reigns: Underage character being abused, but it's obviously characterized as abuse, and isn't there to pander to pedophiles. Definite plot aside from the sex.
• Dekichatta Danshi: Slice of Life plot, and the couple that has sex is of age both at Their First Time and later on, though as mentioned, Art Evolution fail has them both still looking 17 in their 30s.
• The Demian Syndrome: Seems to be a plot (if a boilerplate romance plot), the story seems to imply last-year high school students, who would be 17-18, and they look similar to your average 17-18 year old in manga.
• Eerie Queerie!: Main character is a high school student, but this has been published by Tokyopop within the US, and everything I see about it online seems to not mention graphic sex scenes.
• FAKE: This one's one of my fandoms actually so I can speak with some authority here. Definite collection of plots and subplots, and the only sex scene(s) are in the final volume (which is even lampshaded by one of the characters in a pretty hilarious way: "I'm going to bang an M rating out of this book yet!"). There's no pedo-pandering to be found. Work has less sex than some mainstream movies and TV series. Also officially published in US by Tokyopop.
• Finder Series: Everyone involved seems to be an adult, and there's a plot.
• Happy Yarou Wedding: The only child involved isn't having sex with anyone (though he walks in on a few Primal Scene moments, but it's played for humor), there is a Slice of Life and romance plot, and everyone having sex is adults. Passes test pretty much.
• ...Virgin Love: Everyone is obvious adults (middle-aged even!) and there's a plot.
• Future Lovers: Romance plot, but a plot, and everyone's adults.
• Gorgeous Carat: Plot, doesn't seem to be any pedo content. There isn't even any sex yet according to the page.
• Gravitation: As long as we're talking the main series. Remix and Megamix are definitely reportable material if they appear, for being Porn Without Plot.
• Hana No Mizo Shiru: Needs a move to /Manga from Main, but otherwise okay - both characters adults (university students), standard romance plot but a plot.
• Winter Cicada: Spinoff of the below-mentioned Haru Wo Daiteta, but has a plot that isn't porn-related.
• The Heart of Thomas: Seems to be more of an angst piece than anything else, with a definite plot. Everyone's last year high school, then revisited older.
• Honto Yajuu: Seems to be a romance with a Slice of Life plot. Could be argued to be an Excuse Plot, but also has overtones of Sex Comedy too. Everyone having sex is an adult.

Reported and will review: (e.g. the trope lists or images are ambiguous re ages, there seems to be no plot or only excuse plot. "Nuke it from the page" ones are bolded.)

• Acid Town: This one will PROBABLY pass, but the ambiguous ages in the pic and the reference to shotacon means it gets a report and closer look. Seems okay in regard to plot, needs to be checked for pedo-pandering. EDIT: REVIEWED. /pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13349331300A11026600&page=460#11484 This one's probably a keep. It's not even that graphic regarding sex (violence, on the other hand...), and the "shotacon" is a character having been an underage Sex Slave, which is treated as the Moral Event Horizon for the people that did it to him, and he's shown to be traumatized from it.
• Awkward Silence: Protagonists are high schoolers and drawn "chibi" style. This one depends on how graphic the sex is and what the intended audience is (is it adults, or older teens? If it's adults it probably needs to be removed. If it's aimed at older teen fangirls in Japan, it can probably stay.) EDIT- Reviewed it myself, this seems like a keep. It has an official US release, and characters are at least 16 if not 17 or 18.
• Breakfast Club: Set in a boys' dorm at a high school and features a teacher-student romance, and seems to be aimed at older adult women. Nuke from orbit from trope page, IMO.
• The Carp On The Chopping Block Jumps Twice: Everyone looks of age here, but possibly a Porn Without Plot. It will probably be okay, but just want to check to make sure there's something to it. This is why you fill out trope lists a bit more, people.
• The Cornered Mouse Dreams Of Cheese Prequel to the above. Seems to be an Excuse Plot. It and the above may well pass (and no pedo yay), but I need to read to see if there's a plot beyond Excuse Plot.
• Endless World: Discussed above, reported back then, no need to report it again.
• Fish In The Trap: High school students having sex. Probably should be nuked from orbit as I can find nothing saying it's not aimed at older women.
• Haru wo Daiteita: It's about porn stars, and they have sex and lots of it, but there is a plot and it's basically Slice of Life in the gay porn industry in Japan. I don't know if the "characters are porn stars dealing with the AV industry" pushes it over the edge into P5 banning or not. IMO, it's Porn with Plot about porn, so... reported so we can all discuss whether its plot allows it to stay, or that the whole thing is about porn means it goes.
• Hybrid Child: There's pics of at least one adult having sex with the Hybrid Child on Google Images for it. NUKE FROM FUCKING ORBIT.

Reports made, and I'm done for the night.

edited 12th Jan '15 8:22:53 PM by RevolutionStone

We DO NOT use GIS to make decisions. You read the source material if possible. GIS is a lazy way to do things, and you can't tell if it's fanart or altered material. If you are just using the trope list, you cannot tell. Some tropers were pretty lewd when it came to describing their favourite works.

That Rules page was written years ago. It's still in Main, and I'm not prepared to move it until I know whether it's worth doing or not. But calling something a "yaoi" universe should get it flagged, mainly because it conjures up images of gay sex. Note: this doesn't mean remove it, it means read it and check.

Whether Rules existed off internet, and the site the page linked to just showed scans, is unclear.

edited 8th Jan '15 10:54:19 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

Well, GIS can point to problematic material (as happened with Katahane). You need to check the source.

Manga.Fish In The Trap can be cut for violating a different wiki policy - two ZCE's and a barely explained third trope. Stub work page, can be cut on those grounds, anyway, whether we'd want a page on it or not.

Manga.The Cornered Mouse Dreams Of Cheese also violates policy on work pages needing three fully explained tropes.

edited 8th Jan '15 11:09:00 AM by TheOneWhoTropes

Since when does the presence of gay sex have anything to do with whether a work is pornographic? On those grounds we should flag Heralds of Valdemar.