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Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Wait, something about sharks, and voodoo, what?, started by ThePope on Feb 12th 2011 at 8:14:07 PM
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Ambiguous Name, started by ThePope on Mar 29th 2012 at 10:59:26 PM
I feel that the Deadlands example does not belong here. The "plot hole" is that the Treaty City of Deadwood remained a location that technology still worked in. The reason explained by the entry is "Totem Poles." This is what they state is the Voodoo Shark, i.e. why not just make more poles? Why, they would only be made by those who follow "the Old Ways" and forgo technology. Meaning that they would have no reason to want to make more. So why would the group that doesn't want technology to exist in their lands make the markers to allow technology in the first place. Because they don't break treaties and they agreed that Deadwood would remain open to outsiders and those of their tribe that did not wish to follow "the Old Ways". No Plot Holes there.
I've noticed that it is possible to "dumb out" entries but don't know how or I might have done so with this entry.
Should this page include the phrase 'ignotum per ignotius' (explaining the unknown by means of the more unknown)?
There are similarities, but there is a using the unknown to explain the real world is quite different from using the nonsensical (but well known to the reader) to explain fiction.
So, this World War Z example doesn't really seem to fit entirely:
World War Z goes to extensive lengths to justify why humanity changes its tactics drastically to fight the zombies: Napoleonic Era tactics (and weaponry designed to fit) are used because modern military tactics and weapons are inefficient at killing zombies, and the Redeker Plan (leaving behind some survivors as bait for zombies, to keep the zombies distracted) is used because zombies are only attracted to humans. However, the zombies featured in the book should easily go down to a modern military, the only reason they don't is because the author doesn't understand how lethal modern weapons would be to zombies and has the humans use Hollywood Tactics. It's also shown that zombies are attracted to things other than humans, including non-human animals (though admittedly to a lesser extent than humans) and any loud noise, including gunshots and music. In fact, music is used to lure zombies into a vulnerable position at the Battle of Hope, yet nobody thinks of using the same tactic elsewhere.
The first part isn't saying anything, since it doesn't matter how lethal the weapons are against fictional beings. It's like saying weapons would be lethal against dragons despite their magical scales or whatever. Plus, the problem in the book wasn't Hollywood Tactics, but a refusal to accept that zombies actually existed (that might be a plothole in itself, but it's not mentioned in the example). The second part is a plothole, but it lacks the "nonsensical explanation" part - they use humans as live bait instead of music, but there's no backtracking attempt to explain why.
I say we remove the whole example.
While there's a lot of Hollywood Tactics in WWZ that goes above and beyond just refusing to accept that zombies exist (the military at Yonkers breaks nearly every rule of tactical doctrine), this does seem pretty valid. Removing unless someone can reword it more properly.
The most oft-cited case of Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy In the Original Trilogy is the Death Star from A New Hope. The film has not one but two scenes that explains that the real reason was the villains let the heroes escape. However Pablo Hidago instead explains that Stormtroopers don't have the same level of training across the board so the Stormtroopers on the Death Star weren't as well trained as say the 501st Legion (Vader's personal unit that boards the Tantive IV at the beginning of the film.). Not only does it raise the question why is stormtrooper training inconsistent to begin with, (while most writers tend to forget it they are supposed to the Elite Mooks in the Galactic Empire) and why such poorly trained troops were given such a sensitive posting but there is also the fact the Stormtroopers on Cloud City were part of the 501st and they missed as often as the Stormtroopers on the Death Star.
Is the Pocahontas entry really an example? The film is fantasy, and Pocahontas displays other powers in the story. She's told by Grandmother Willow to let the spirits of the earth guide her, and it's a fundamental theme of the film that the spirits all around are there to give guidance. It's made clear that the wind itself is magic - before Pocahontas speaks English, it circles around her and John's hands and Meeko and Flit looked shocked when she speaks.
There are 3 Star Wars Examples I feel need to be added. The first is from Star Wars The Clone Wars with the retcon about the Death Star's superlaser is powered by giant Kyber Crystals (Which were first introduced in the Crystal Crysis on Utapau arc) the plots are as follows.
1. Where do the giant Kyber Crystals come from? are they found on planets where like Ilum where you can get regular Kyber Crystals? if so why are they seen as so mythical.
2. Why does Palpatine have the most important part of the Death Star rely on something that may not even exist. The storyline was the first time these things have been seen in ages and Palpatine had the Geonosisians work on the Death Star well before that storyline took place.
3. Even if Palpatine knew about them beforehand, why did he make it rely on these giant Kyber Crystals as he has no way of knowing there are enough left to use?
4. Why does the Crystal from the show act so differently from the Death Star's Superlaser? It is refracting and amplifying blaster bolts doing that on the Death Star would mean it would be destroyed during the first test firing.
5. Star Wars Complete Locations means that synthetic Kyber Crystals are Canon again. (We see one labeled as such in the Sith Med Center where Darth Vader gets rebuilt in Revenge of The Sith) so do they not just use those instead of strip mining for them on worlds like Ilum and Jedha?
6. Related to the above why are they stealing those crystals we see in Rogue One that way to small to be used for the superlaser (I know a handwave exist in the Rogue One Visual Guide but said handwave still raises more questions.)
The second is from the series Star Wars. Long story short to explain why Ezra had a green-bladed Lightsaber in season 3 after Darth Vader destroyed Ezra's original Lightsaber in the season 2 finale Word of God said that Kyber Crystals are colorless and the blade is meant to reflect the users' personalities. there are a few a problems with this.
1. Several characters different personalities have the same colored blades. Ahsoka (Very brash and headstrong) uses green-bladed lightsabers like Yoda (The textbook example of a wise old mentor in fiction). Anakin and Obi-Wan similarly both blue-bladed Lightsabers despite a case of Red Oni, Blue Oni respectively.
2. Several times in the films and TV Series we characters using another characters' lightsaber yet the blade does not change color. examples include Obi-Wan using Qui-Gon's Lightsaber against Darth Maul in Episode One and it stays green. Anakin uses a temporary replacement for the Battle of Geonosis in Episode Two which is green despite the fact based on Word of God it should be blue as that is color of his regular lightsaber.
3. When Anakin becomes Darth Vader in Episode Three why his Lightsaber blade not immediately turn to Red. For that matter why does it not do that any other time a fallen Jedi appears or when Ahsoka was Brainwashed and Crazy during the Mortis arc of the Clone Wars.
4. What do the individual blades colors mean. Ezra at the start of season 3 was very close to becoming completely Drunk on the Dark Side does that mean green is the color of someone on the Start of Darkness? if so should it be worrying to anyone that the Jedi Grand Master uses a green lightsaber? Also why does Ezra's lightsaber color stay green for the rest of the series when that plot point above was resolved early in season 3?
5. Related to the above what does it say when a person wields a lightsaber or lightsabers with more than one blade color like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Agen Kolar, Pong Krell General Grevious or Darth Maul?
6. Why did they not use a the more logical explanation? Depa Billaba (Kanan's master) had a green lightsaber blade in legends they don't they just say Kanan keep the Kyber Crystal from his master's lightsaber as a Tragic Keepsake and then gave ti to Ezra? It makes more sense and those above points would be moot.
The is the alleged reason for Astral Projection crap Luke pulled at the end of The Last Jedi. Rian Johnson posted on Twitter a force ability called Doppelganger from Legends the problem is the description claims that the Doppelganger is virtually indistinguishable from the real deal. So why does Luke look like he did in the flashbacks from the movie and use the Blue Lightsaber that was shattered earlier on? Even worse it still does not explain how Luke dies at the end of the movie.
Clipped the last one because the explanations are pretty obvious. A) Obviously, Luke could make the projection look how he wanted. In this case, the Luke Skywalker Kylo Ren expected to see. B) He died because he clearly overextended himself, using powers he hasn't used for decades, at a level that would've pushed his limits at his peak. Just because there isn't an explicit "This Is What Happened" explanation doesn't make it a Voodoo Shark.
You are kinda missing the point neither of those things are obvious at all and one of the things I brought up is the first point actually contradicts your counter-argument since it suggest the opposite.
Restored The Lion Guard entry (again), but dummied out. Once again, the "He lied" handwave relies far too heavily on an Informed Ability (Scar being a Consummate Liar) to fly here. Not to mention it was clear from the original movie that Mufasa did not trust Scar. I find it highly improbable that Mufasa would buy any explanation as to what could've killed the rest of the Lion Guard and "merely" stripped his powers away.
And I removed it because Voodoo Shark is about attempts to fill plot holes that create as bad or worse holes. As The Lion Guard entry didn't attempt to explain a prior hole (at least as written), it's just a regular Plot Hole, which is already listed there.
Cut this from the Star Wars section.
I would disagree with that rationale.
I know that this is the sort of thing that invites Fan Wank, but my point still stands: when an "explanation" involves the fact that the bad guys aren't allowed to have more than two members, it raises plenty of perfectly natural questions about how they're able to be a credible threat to the good guys, who have no such restrictions.
They're that much of a threat because Sith don't believe in self-restraint. They believe in "gain power, use power" As such, they are much more powerful, one on one, than most Jedi. They're going to carve up a bunch of knights and padawans until they hit a Master who can match them. In the prequels, in Clone Wars", in Rebels'' we've seen this. They are what happens when you give structure and purpose to The Dark Side.
Hell, one particularly patient and powerful Sith Lord took over the galaxy and all but wiped out the Jedi.
It's not a matter of numbers and never was. This isn't a matter of generating more questions than answers, this is countering every answer with "yeah, but..." That, as you said, is Fan Wank, not this trope.
A weak rationalization at best. One that that relies on Scar being a Loki-level liar to explain away what happened to the other members AND his own powers.
Got this from Mai-Otome:
The biggest problem seems to be the word "exclusively". "Actively" might fit better.
I went through and removed a bunch of misused examples that, in-universe, are intentionally treated as nonsense; these are It Runs On Nonsensoleum rather than the Voodoo Shark, which I interpreted as being audience reaction to a poorly handled retcon or in-story explanation expected to be taken seriously. Is this appropriate, or is this trope capable of being played for laughs?
Removed the midichlorians example. As has been stated previously, the addition of midichlorians neither answered any existing question nor did it generate additional ones - past "What was the point of this?" (Which is more a fandom thing than a plot thing).
Can we rename the trope? It's too unclear for someone new.
Such a rename has been rejected many times in the past.
Cut this line in the Twilight section, as the back-and-forth discussion of women's reproductive cycles was too much like Conversation In The Main Page.
Because the example as written only goes as far as the "Handwave that explains a plothole" but doesn't explain why it creates a new one.
Removed the Legend of Korra bloodbending example. It was unstated, but obvious, that Amon did something to the victim's brain, via bloodbending, that cut off access to one's bending ability - a brute force version of Aang's energybending. How he learned how as equally unspoken and obvious: He practiced.
I think the Star Wars The Clone Wars example should be removed, because it isn't really a Voodoo Shark if it is "patching up a Plot Hole that doesn't exist" as it claims.
Besides, the handwave in the Order 66 arc was made because Clones Are People, Too has become a running theme in the series, showing that they are not the mindlessly obedient drones Lama Su made them out to be (and the same arc claims that the Jedi are becoming a creative influence for them). The chips may have been the only the way to believably justify the clones turning on the Jedi so suddenly after being on really good terms with them and looking up to them. The episode guide also confirms that the brainwashing chips are the genetic modifications for making them more obedient; Lama Su was just deliberately withholding information from Obi-Wan.
Star Wars The Clone Wars did create a real example with the retcon about the Death Star's superlaser is powered by giant Kyber Crystals (Which were first introduced in the Crystal Crysis on Utapau arc) the plots are as follows.
Anybody who reads the IDW Transformers in here? I'm not sure why the Arcee example is here. Yeah, it's pretty unfortunate how the only female Cybertronian is Axe-Crazy, but regular Cybertronians are genderless robots. Reproduction isn't 'directly linked to the whole gender issue'—asexual reproduction is a thing that exists in real life. I don't understand how it raises Fridge Logic if the example never even points out what that fridge logic is.
The Fridge Logic is "why are there female transformers?" Apparently the IDW writers believed that you couldn't simply introduce female robots without an explanation.
EDIT: Upon further consideration, when you asked "What's the Fridge Logic" did you mean "what's the Fridge Logic in regards to the handwave?" In that case I'm with you. The handwave is kinda hackneyed and awkward, but not really a Plot Hole.
In the Ereshkigal example under Folklore, it's suggested that, being a Goddess of the dead, her husband would be there with her. However, Ereshkigal lives in a land of dreary mud, with nothing else in it, and the dead are always lonely and wailing out for their loved ones. In order to keep the dead company, she embodies Nightmare Fuel and *swallows them into herself!* That would include her dead husband. They're all effectively part of her, now, but that's no good for a warm bed, is it?
Surely the Played for Laughs examples here ought to be moved, as that's now its own trope (It Runs on Nonsensoleum)?
Would Zelda's timeline count, now that its "explanation" has come out and it's ludicrously more complicated than anyone's fan wank?
I think so. The simple fact that it posits a third timeline split when even the wildest of guessing fans only restricted themselves to two alone quantifies it for being way left-field.
Removed the following. The trope is when trying to fix a plot hole, one creates a new plot hole. The following are just single plotholes (without the explanation part) or fridge logic or whatever. Also removed a quasi example in the star wars section. The resulting fix is not so much a direct plot hole as _maybe_ a bad decision. It was Nattery.
May I inquire as to whether we need such a bloated second paragraph? I'm hardly a Star Trek fan, but it seems to me that we go from discussing Jaws to discussing Star Trek for little-to-no-reason. Can't we just chop the Star Trek bits out and put them into their own example in the page?
That's the trope namer explanation. It's also a demonstration of the first two examples which one can use to extrapolate the trope.
I know I'm probably flagellating a deceased equine of truly antediluvian antiquity here, but it occurs to me that the holodeck/replicator issue is really not hard to reason logically. Holodecks just generate light and forcefields, while a replicator creates real matter, and thus needs an immense amount of energy for a tiny amount of matter (E=MC^2). So the holodeck (and everything else) probably just has negligible power requirements compared to the replicator.
Which doesn't change the fact that the "incompatible power system" answer was a stupid one. Kinda reminds me of ol' Bill Clinton perjuring himself rather than admitting he got a blowjob.
Kinda late to the party, but it's hard to reason because they've established that everything tactile in a holodeck is replicated (because, y'know, you can't touch light).
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How well does it match the trope?