Discussion Characters / FriendshipIsMagicAntagonists

If no one objects, I'll cutlist this over the weekend

Right now, she's over on the Expanded Universe page.

More:

• Second Place Is for Losers: Her philosophy. She's willing to come in first place by any means, regardless if she's ahead or even if winning doesn't matter. It costs her dearly in the end.

-Actually, there is no case when she is in danger of coming in second other than against Rainbow Dash, and she's fine with that. (She may be interpreting it as being better or as good since she took the greater challenge and still did almost as well.) The way the example is written reveals the contradiction: it basically says she'll do anything to avoid coming in second even if she's not about to come in second. Overkill is not avoiding coming in second.

• Shadow Archetype

-That's maybe not totally wrong, but I think Foil is better.

• The Leader: Type III.

-She's not a leader of a group. Also, saying 'type x' is not a valid way to give an example.

• Smug Snake

-I don't even know where to start arguing against this because there is no explanation why it would apply in the first place. Is it just that every trope related to arrogance has been put here?

Sorry that I'm kind of losing my patience and getting a little sarcastic here, but it's the same thing every time I look at one of these pages.

I missed a couple last time:

• Smug Super
• Super-Speed

Being better than others at what they can do normally is not a superpower, hence she can't be a Smug Super. Rainbow Dash can be said to have Super-Speed because of that sonic rainboom thing, but that doesn't mean others who can keep up with her when she's not in explicitly supersonic mode have it.

About the Arrogant flyer girl, yes it does apply to other hobbies and skills other than Kung-Fu, because here is the basic definition of the trope:

"A character with lots of raw power and Pride who thinks he's superior to everyone else."

so she is an example of the trope.

You are correct. The trope fits. There doesn't seem to be any real reason for this to be a divisive issue. Maybe people have been forgetting that Tropes Are Tools.

That doesn't sound right to me, but there's really no evidence either way.

Nah, since it was temporary.

Probably. Most of her screen time was her making the CMC miserable.

Personally, I don't think so.

Given how serious the show tends to get whenever a major baddies shows up, we might as well put it under "tropes associated with all villains".

There are two Sports Pegasi folders, and it looks like part of Trixie's entry was merged with the jocks.

Did someone botch an edit?

The clip pretty much confirms that the MC is King Somber (same eyes) and that he’s a baddie. So I think moving him to the bad guy section is alright.

If we are wrong and it turns out that he isn’t King Somber or actually a good guy we can easily correct our mistakes and/or put him into another section.

Just saw the HD clip and yeah, it's pretty much him (The lower quality clips made his eyes look more yellowish and I didn't see the purple aura coming out of his eyes). Regardless, I still think it's too early to place him in the character page. He doesn't have enough tropes yet and I'd wait until we can get a good screenshot or vector of him. For now, I think we should relocate his current tropes to the Crystal Empire page until he makes his debut.

The King Somber entry isn’t a new one. As soon as the first picture of him showed up on the HUB website, someone created an entry from him in the Canon Foreigners section. It’s not that strange considering that there are entries for toys, the spiders on one of the comic cover and a non-sentient rock. ^^

All I did was changing his name as soon as it was “confirmed” that he’s King Somber and then someone else moved him to the Antagonists.

No. And if you want to discuss it, discuss it, don't edit-war revert the change and then start to discuss it.

I don't think Blueblood counts as the antagonist in that session. He's kind of obnoxious, but Rarity just could of left, eh? She didn't need to hang around with him.

I think he still counts under the wider definition of someone who creates conflict by opposing the protagonist. Just because he's oblivious to the fact doesn't mean that he doesn't create conflict in his interactions with Rarity.

When you look at what an antagonist is supposed to do, he fits EVERY category, some even better than Trixie

An antagonist creates conflict for the main character(s), whether or not the characters or in some cases the antagonists themselves are aware of it. While it's true he was there to illustrate how off Rarity's expectations were, he was still a source of conflict for her portion of the episode. So in that sense, he is at the very least a somewhat antagonistic figure.

All of the conflict was created by Rarity. The antagonist of the entire episode, in fact, was the ponies' unreasonable expectations. It's pretty much a classic Man Vs. Self conflict.

If you put Blueblood here, you'll also have to include the Wonderbolts, the entire line of ponies waiting to shake hooves with Celestia, all the ponies in the ballroom, all the creatures in the garden, and Pony Joe for refusing to give Spike another donut.

As the above says, Blueblood isn't the antagonist here. The antagonist is their own expectations. Blueblood's just a Jerkass who serves to underline Rarity's personal expectations being unreasonable.

I personally think he belongs more on the Celebronies page than here... But I suppose its worth discussing who exactly does belong on this page. This is an odd show where our "villains" range from elementary school bullies to an Affably Evil Reality Warper.

As per The Antagonist page, an antagonist "exists for the purpose of opposing the efforts of the Protagonist". Does Blueblood really fit this role so far in the series? In a sense Photo Finish could also count as an Antagonist, but that takes another pony off the Celebronies page and she already fits nicely in the Fashion Ponies category over there.

Perhaps we should consider some reorganizing. Thoughts?

Fluttershy's own feelings are the antagonist in that instance. Photo Finish, in the context of the larger picture, is merely the setting. At worst, Blueblood just needs to go on the minor character page instead of being a celebrity.

Come to think of it, should Trixie even be considered an antagonist? She didn't really do much protagonist-opposing beyond embarrassing them once.

Didn't the Mane Cast antagonize her during her show?

No. They simply said she shouldn't be so full of herself. Trixie then pretty much called them up to the stage so she could upstage them in front of everyone.

Seriously, what's with all the DILP-ing lately?

Trixie's an antagonist, but there's no shortage of jerkish behavior to go around in that episode, between both her and the Mane Cast. Trixie didn't even notice them until Rainbow Dash started booing.

Booing =/= humiliating others in some pretty nasty ways. Seriously Pete, all of your edits related to this show lately have been demonizing the cast to make them seem worse than they actually are. WTF man? Do you just hate the show all of a sudden?

For Trixie's show: they didn't have to be there. They weren't obligated to stay and they didn't appear to have had to pay. They could have left. Instead, they opted to interrupt the show and ignore the fact that out of all the ponies who were in attendance, they were the only ones unhappy. So, I'm not unhappy with them for booing Trixie, I'm unhappy with them for ignoring the rest of the attendees.

Also, I'm not demonizing the cast. But they have done a lot of crap that shouldn't be overlooked, because otherwise we'd get deep into Protagonist-Centered Morality. As well, I'm pointing out the Easily Forgiven nature of the show and the viewers' overreactions. I can't bring myself to genuinely hate the jerk villains for behavior that has been matched or exceeded by the Mane Cast (Make Fluttershy cry? IRREDEEMABLE MONSTER!! Nearly get her killed several times? Her oldest friend). Alternatively, I'm combating Trope Decay for Moral Event Horizon and Complete Monster because for all the bad behavior that goes on, it doesn't exactly reach the level murder/torture/rape/dehumanization.

I've defended the town for reacting the way they did against the CMC because the wounds of exposed secrets and outright defamation are still fresh in their minds. Tropers were treating the town as though they formed an unruly mob and went after them and chased them to the ends of the Earth. I've pointed out that the town has gotten over worse problems perpetrated by members of the Mane Cast and the CMC and others (I'm looking at you Snips and Snails) than some gossip and there's no reason to believe that they wouldn't let this go too after they've cooled down. It's not mature, but it's not unreasonable.

If you're talking about my Fridge Brilliance counterargument to "Applejack would have confessed because she's the Element of Honesty", I'm pointing out that the argument doesn't hold up because the other characters engaged in behavior that would run contrary to their Elements, so why should Applejack be seen as any different? And then when someone said "they don't always act in accordance with their Elements", I have to point out that by that logic, Applejack is not beholden to act in accordance with hers all the time either, thereby making the initial Fridge Brilliance claim not hold up under scrutiny even more (I tend to hate the overuse of Fridge Brilliance, especially when it's either spelled out in the series or is riddled with logical holes like this argument was).

If you're talking about my "Pinkie is a racist" comment, I was jokingly pointing out the logical extension of the Fridge Brilliance claim of "Why would Pinkie suspect the griffon more than the others"?

If you're talking about my Sweet And Elite edit to Dude, Where's My Respect?, well, Rarity never actually says anything about her friends' actual accomplishments (and IIRC, never mentions the names of her friends except for Rainbow Dash), so I'm offering a possible reason why she doesn't say anything ("Yes, my friend Rainbow Dash saved the lives of the Wonderbolts at the Young Fliers' Competition last year, and I'm the idiot who put their lives in danger in the first place" kinda sounds like something you'd want to keep to yourself). I'm guessing if the identities of the Elements of Harmony are not known to the public, it might explain why nopony knows who they are. Meanwhile, if they don't know who they are, then the Mane Cast just come across as random obnoxious party crashers and therefor, to them, deserve to be looked down upon.

In Applejack's defense, she's the one who upholds her element the best. Even when she lies, she's not particularly good at it (looking at her in 'Party of One').

I think that might have something to do with how she was raised, but that's Wild Mass Guessing.

Hmm...I guess those are all good points. Look, I like Trixie myself. Hell, she actually has a major role in a fic I'm co-writing with a friend, but she was definitely at fault once she started humiliating ponies (though, I suppose they did start it), and, countering a point made by RK, the only reason she fought the Ursa was because Snips and Snails quite literally forced her into the spotlight. She clearly had misgivings, but she was being pressured. I suppose we'll just have to chalk it up towards "both sides could have handled it better".

And sorry for coming off as a jerk. The recent string of various posters (who shall remain nameless) demonizing and overdramatizing the cast's actions have left me a bit testy.

@ sniperfish: True, but then the argument should have used that claim instead of making the blanket "Element" justification, due to how poorly the others lived up to their Elements in that episode. But by that point, it really shouldn't have been placed in Fridge Brilliance at all.

@ Some New Guy: No prob. It really was a matter of neither of them having any sort of moral high ground in this case, which I fully acknowledge. It was just that the Mane Cast's own bad behavior was being left out, so I opted to add it.

Trixie could have easily fled Ponyville at that point, ignoring those two. She knew she had no chance against it but tried something against it, which is more than Applejack, Dash and rarity could say.

Except that those three weren't even involved with the Ursa until after Twilight had driven it off and exposed Trixie as the arrogant, blowhard fraud she was.

Again though, I do NOT hate Trixie. I feel she has a good shot at redemption, which has been shown in many fanfics such as The Greatest Gift and Pony POV Series. Heck, in that fic I mentioned I'm cowriting with a friend, she's Twilight's Long Lost Sibling!

Yeah, they weren't involved. They literally stood there shivering in fright while Twilight stepped up to the plate to solve the problem Snips and Snails engendered. I mean they were literally shaking and doing nothing while the Ursa was there. As for being forced into the 'spotlight', she had two easy avenues of escape open to her Or she could've done nothing. Instead, she tried, knowing she had no chance against it but doing something. Which again, none of her hecklers did.

And for all of it, she loses her wagon and everything inside. Massively Disproportionate Retribution directed to her for putting hecklers in their place and the Ursa tale.

And that's what it boils down to for me. The mane Cast literally starts it with Trixie, heckling her show. Is it demonizing them? No, it's the truth. "Magic, schmagic, boo!" They could've just turned and walked off. They had no obligation to stay.

I'm sorry, but the more I see the episode the more Trixie is the target of Protagonist-Centered Morality here. Why were they in the right to boo her? Simple answer, they weren't. She's a showmare either trying to make a living or putting on a free show.

What should be done? Research.

Look up the actors on their websites and listen to their voice work in other stuff before playing the "vandalism" card, when you don't get your way.

No offence, but I've looked at the submition for the Sports Pegasi actors, and the actor given for Dumbell was in fact the corrct one. I, being a huge Ranma One Half fan, know Richard Cox's voice when I hear it. When you've been watching cartoons/anime where the voices are all done by the same group, you develop an ear for these things. In Sonic Rainboom, it was Richard Ian Cox voicing the dumbell pegasus. Cox has a reasonably well known voice in the voice acting industry, so an official source isn't necessary in this case. Just watch some of the other stuff he's been in. Ranma One Half (title character), Inu Yasha (title character) or X Men Evolution (Pietro). Now, I can't vouch for Kathleen Barr as Hoops, as I didn't watch Ed Edd And Eddy that much, but It should be noted that both of the sports Pegasi who speak, have different actors in the flashback in Cutie Mark Chronicles (Brian Drummond for Dumbell and Terry Klassen for Hoops).

EDIT: Okay, I've done some research and found this web page. Kathleen Barr's Behind The Voice Actors page. It has voice clips of many of the characters she's voiced, including Hoops. Upon comparing the voice, yes, it is the same as Kevin from Ed Edd And Eddy.

So I say, put them back in.

I've just taken a look at that BBVA site and found Richard Ian Cox' page, also possessing a number of voice clips, for comparrison. He also does a pop cast on his official website.

If we're in agreement, then I also vote that we put the actor credits back in.

Well that's funny, because comparing Billy's voice clip on the site to the clips on Richard's page, Billy's voice is notably higher-pitched and has a hint of a lisp that Richard doesn't evidently have; it's much more comparable to the other clips on Sam Vincent's page. Either way, one's own personal ears just aren't as reliable as an actor's Facebook/Twitter page or an official interview. And with so much misinformation concerning V As already (mainly in the form of IM Db), it's simply safer if we just leave all unofficially credited characters uncredited until an official source or sources pop up.

Oh, and since you're all so reliant on your own intuitions, let me remind you of all the MLP credits on IM Db that have been proven false thus far: Emilie Claire Barlow as Cheerilee (turned out to be Nicole Oliver), Tabitha St. Germain as Zecora (turned out to be Brenda M. Crichlow), Peter New as Hoity Toity (denied by Peter New himself) and Ashleigh Ball as Little Strong Heart (turned out to be Erin Mathews) and Chris Rager as Iron Will (denied by Chris Rager himself). Since IM Db's data is user submitted, where do you think their "data" comes from? Oh, right, from their unreliable ears. From now on, unless a VA or crew member of the show out-and-out says who voiced who, we should just keep our speculations to ourselves.

Dumbell doesn't sound anything like Sam Vincent. Go back and listen to the Dumbell clip again. Then listen to the one for Sails, on Cox's page and the ones for Ranma Saotome, Quicksilver and Bit Cloud. And I mean really listen to them. Several times over, if need be. I'm standing by the fact that it was Cox.

I'm sorry, but I just don't hear the supposed similarity between Billy and Richard. And without any official source, it doesn't matter whether we think that Richard or Sam voiced him because we may as well both be wrong.

I'm relying on my own intuition, because, it's right. Did we need an official sourse for Trixie? No. Is there a sourse for Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon? Doesn't look like it. Scott Mc Neil for one of the Diamond Dogs? Nope.

Besides, you yourself seemed pretty sure of your own intuition. Why was it okay for you, but not others?

We only know that Shannon was Silver Spoon because she confirmed as much when she revealed that she was recording for the third season, but that's beside the point.

I now recognize that it is not only wrong but downright egotistical to be completely reliant on one's own intuition in terms of figuring out V As for shows that don't give them proper credit. That's exactly why I changed my stance to leaving the characters uncredited until an official source surfaces. If any info we gather up from our ears turns out to be false, I'd rather it'd not be up at all.

The reason this is a public wiki, is that anyone can edit it. It's not your personal property. If it's wrong, someone can just fix it. Did you read the homepage? "We are not a stuffy encyclopedic wiki."

But if you only want to acknowlage talent if they tell you themselves, then feel free to ask them. They have fanmail addresses, so go ahead and ask them yourself.

I sent a message to Richard Ian Cox's Facebook page in an attempt to figure this out. But free-to-edit wiki or not, I'm still opposed to allowing further contribution to the widespread misinformation surrounding VA roles on the internet. Until we get some sort of response from Richard, we should hold off on crediting the characters for now.

On his facebook page...

He sounded rather unsure in his reply, but I suppose that's the closest we're going to get to a confirmation. I do however think that it's a bit irresponsible as a voice actor to not remember what characters he played, but I digress.

To be fair to him, the recording session for that episode was years ago, and Dumbell was only a minor character, who apparently didn't even have a name in the script. Hell, John de Lancie didn't remember voicing Discord when Return Of Harmony aired.

Anyway, if you are satisfied, I vote that the voice credit be put back in.

It probably would've been better if you had directed him to Billy's entire voice clip on Bt VA rather than one measly line on You Tube. Regardless, if you want to put the credit back in, go ahead. On a side note, I'm rather miffed that he replied to your message instead of the one that I sent earlier :/

Not really. They're just like the other monsters of the Everfree forest they're less like actual characters and more like a force that moves the plot along.

He's already listed in the Celebrities page.

Cool, thanks!

Unicorns are bada** by default. They are unquestionably the most powerful of all the ponies. And they are adorable.

"Badass is an adjective used to describe a character who gets away with outright insane stunts (defusing a bomb with their teeth, conning a mob boss, getting into a firefight with the entire army, etc.) that would be VERY hard to pull off in real life, or would get the person trying it killed several times over. A Badass is a fantasy figure whom the audience roots for precisely because of how prone they are to awesome moments, to the point where they stretch or break the Willing Suspension of Disbelief."

Of course, magic is impossible to pull off in real life, but that's hardly what this means. It doesn't say anywhere that "Anyone above Super Weight class 1 is automatically badass." Twilight Sparkle only barely counts as Badass Adorable (if at all), Trixie certainly doesn't. I'd like to see someone pull off being badass and Miles Gloriosus at the same time. (The closest I can think of is Ciaphas Cain, and he fails at being Miles Gloriosus.)

I can see the point of wanting to apply this trope, depending on emphasis it seems to fit, but it just doesn't hold up on closer examination. I might like to put it there too, depending on how annoyed I'm feeling with Trixie at the moment, but I can't justify it.

(Also, I'm not sure unicorns are more powerful than pegasi, or at least that they are much more so. Just look at Rainbow Dash and Twilight Sparkle. But that's a whole other discussion.)

We are, and that's final. Background ponies are an exception cause most of them don't have names, but most fans ignore the toys anyways.

They've got pretty much the same coat color, the same eye color, and the same Cutie Mark. "Lulamoon" at least falls into the same category as "Selena" (Luna's name in the Novelization of the pilot episodes).

Selena was what Luna was going to be called, but was changed. Why it was kept in the story book we don't know, and there isn't any Word of God saying Lulamoon is Trixie's original name.

Have you read the story book, by the way? Nightmare Moon is shown once, and I forget if Luna appears at all. You keep saying Novelization like its an Expanded Universe novel when its not.

It doesn't matter that Selena is Luna's original name; what matters is that she's actually called Selena in official materials, whether in The Merch or in a Novelization—which I have read, and it's a direct Compressed Adaptation, not part of the Expanded Universe, but it still counts; if it had given a name to an unnamed pony (such as the Mayor or an unnamed background pony), that name would be on more or less the same level as most of the names from the toys.

And for the record, the latter two of Trixie's three appearances have been as a non-speaking generic background pony (in "Bridle Gossip" and "The Return of Harmony Part 1"), complete with clones and no Cutie Mark—if it wasn't for the fact that the two episodes use the same shot, one could say that she was actually Demoted to Extra.

And to clarify the edit reason about Beyond the Impossible, I looked at the page and then still didn't know what it was about, but I got enough out of it to see it very probably couldn't be said to apply here by any reasoning.

Considering what we learned about the inspiration for Discord from the Theissen interview, I'd say he should most likely be considered an Expy of Q, that was later turned into an Actor Allusion by them actually getting the actor for Q to play him.

Addressed by Lauren on her DA, so the point is moot. The link is in the page now.

That's good, then. Still a silly name.

Never mind. I didn't know we were splitting up the character page.