During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm fine with that. I just wish Templesmith's art style wasn't so...unique, let's say.
EDIT: Also "For the Evulz is good enough, as long as they're a character and not just a threat"...definitely. Hell, The Joker's usual motive is that, and I'm pretty sure nobody would call HIM a GDV.
Edited by ACW on Mar 26th 2019 at 3:09:14 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Emilio Largo and King Deucalion.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
To Patrick
Also, may i suggest to put one of this quotes under image for "Fist of The North Star" page:
Edited by VeryVileVillian on Mar 26th 2019 at 10:15:52 PM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm okay with any of those.
EDIT: Oh, and since Lighty's okay, I'll reaffirm my yes for Deucalion.
Edited by ACW on Mar 26th 2019 at 3:24:40 PM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
@acw: You'd be suprisedd.
People have tried adding the dark knight joker to the main page of Generic Doomsday Villain quite a few times in the past.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2019 at 12:25:02 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Wait. The Dark Knight Joker. The one Heath Ledger won an Oscar for. That one????? I mean, he may not be the most COMPLEX character, or have the most NUANCED motive, but he sure as hell isn't a GDV.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Draftsman of Doom
I thought that in order to be a GDV, your motives had to be completely unclear, if not outright unexplored.
Also, to Largo.
On a different note, when is my Landis image going up?
Rawr.
Goku Black
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
You want bad. This was also there once
- Earlier episodes of Buffy play with the trope quite a bit. In "The Zeppo", the generic villains are never given enough screen time to explain their motivations as that's part of the joke. In "Doomed", like most of the show's baddies, they're a metaphor for something else. Most notably, in "Becoming", Angelus decides to destroy the world just because he can, and so Spike betrays him because he doesn't see how he would gain from the end of the world.
Like seriously angelus is lacking in a personailty (![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
). This trope seems to be throughly misunderstood on this site. Ive seen people try to add everyone from Emperor Maetus, Kefka, Joker, Xykon, zoom, Captain Vidal and other cm's as well as non-cm's who definitely arent lacking in personality like exdeath and Tohru adachi there.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2019 at 12:59:49 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Gentle Laborer
Largo and Deucalion.
I really like the Grinning Man as a villain, considering he is based on Randall Flagg. But that image has the same problem we had with Hellraiser's Stalker, i can barely understand what's going on, and the ridiculous artstyle doesn't help either.
Wait, Tohru Fucking Adachi? A GDV? He's the most complex character in all of Persona 4 lmao.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Mar 26th 2019 at 5:13:13 AM
Goku Black
Maybe go with holloway's drill. Its clear whats going on and hey its not too bad an idea for a pic.
People take the obstacle to he heroes part and confuse it with For the Evulz alot.
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2019 at 1:22:56 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'd be fine with using the drill. Crow, what say you?
Also, a reminder, tomorrow I'll request the folderizing of the Ace Attorney stuff, like so:
Ace Attorney franchise
- Phoenix Wright series:
- The first game: Manfred von Karma is an amoral prosecutor who uses underhanded tactics to maintain his perfect win streak. When defense attorney Gregory Edgeworth beats him by exposing his illegal tactics, Manfred becomes enraged, taking the chance given by an earthquake striking the courtroom to catch up with Gregory and his son in an elevator and murdering Gregory. Taking Gregory's son, Miles, under his wing, Manfred raises him to become a cold, ruthless prosecutor who cares for nothing but always winning a guilty verdict. Setting up a second murder, Manfred plans to frame Miles for both it and his own father's death, intending to see his adoptive son executed as the final act of his revenge against Gregory.
- Trials and Tribulations: Dahlia Hawthorne, the Big Bad, previously manipulated her boyfriend into assisting her in a crime, before framing him for murder and ensuring his suicide to cover her tracks. She later poisoned the lover of the prosecutor Mia Fey when he got too close to her crimes, before she seduced Phoenix Wright as well. When her twin sister Iris fell for Phoenix, she accelerated her plans to poison him. When an ex-lover of Dahlia's tried to warn Phoenix, she murdered him and tried to frame Phoenix. Despite being executed, she returned as a vengeful ghost, aiding her mother to kill Dahlia's cousin Maya Fey solely to spite her elder sister Mia's spirit. Taking steps to manipulate her twin again to help with the murder, she came back from the dead to possess Misty Fey—albeit due to Misty's desire to protect her niece Pearl—and attempted to murder Maya, being stopped only by the intervention of Godot who killed her host. But despite this she became convinced that she had forced Maya to murder her own mother and caused her to commit suicide, which she gloated over to their faces.
- Apollo Justice: The seemingly-helpful mentor, Kristoph Gavin, is really one half of the diabolical duo to usher in "The Dark Age of the Law" by disbarring Phoenix Wright. Kristoph did this out of a petty grudge for Phoenix being chosen as a lawyer for a client instead of him, and so murders said client and manipulates a shy artist and his own brother to enact his vengeance. Poisoning both the artist and her father, Kristoph intended for both to die, gloating to Apollo and Phoenix he knew their line of questioning would make her nervously bite her nails, where he had put the poison. Having started poisoning the artist when she was only twelve, Kristoph is happy to then sit back and watch her face conviction for her own father's murder committed by himself.
- Investigations: While initially seeming like a frail, kind old man, Quercus Alba turns out to be the hardened, cold-hearted boss of a large and powerful smuggling ring. Thanks to him putting many highly-convincing counterfeit bills into circulation, the country of Zheng Fa has been thrown into economic chaos due to his machinations. He also ordered the deaths of Cece Yew, Deid Mann, and Byrne Faraday due to their efforts in trying to expose his role in the smuggling ring, and personally murdered Mask*DeMasque II and his subordinate Manny Coachen: DeMasque II for stealing the fake statue that contained the plates used for creating counterfeit bills, and Coachen due to him seeking to steal power of the smuggling ring from under Alba's nose. Ruthless and rotten to the core, Alba will kill anyone without so much as a second thought for the sake of keeping his criminal empire running.
- Dual Destinies: The mysterious international super spy known only as "the phantom" is the other figure responsible for "The Dark Age of the Law". Murdering multiple people to assume their identities, the phantom has no qualms over the suffering his actions cause, allowing the neighbors of one of his victims to believe she had been killed by her eleven-year-old daughter. Sabotaging a rocket, the phantom nearly kills the astronaut aboard and years later bombs an entire space station; he later murdered yet another astronaut, Apollo's best friend, and framing the astronaut's coworker. Attempting to bomb a courtroom to destroy a piece of evidence, the phantom is willing to kill hundreds to get away and tries to frame Athena and her friend for his atrocities.
- Spirit of Justice: Ga'ran Sigatar Khura'in is the sadistic megalomaniac responsible for the Kingdom of Khura'in's draconic legal system. After being passed over for the throne in favor of her gentle sister Amara due to lacking spiritual power, jealously led to Ga'ran orchestrating multiple attempts on Amara's life in order to strong-arm her into going into hiding while framing her husband Dhurke for her apparent murder. After seizing the throne, Ga'ran passed the Defense Culpability Act, which would force a defense attorney to suffer the same fate as the accused upon losing a case; this led to hundreds, if not thousands, of unjust deaths of defendants and lawyers alike under Khura'in's one-sided court system. Completely uncaring towards her own family, Ga'ran forces Amara and her nephew Nahyuta to cater to her whims on threat of ruining her neice Rayfa's life, and doesn't hesitate to blackmail them into taking the fall for a murder she committed or secretly ordering for Amara to be shot in court. Heartless enough to leave the baby Apollo Justice to die in a fire which she started—and killing Apollo's father while leaving—and egomaniacal to the point of making standing up to her a crime worthy of execution, Ga'ran proved to be among Phoenix Wright and Apollo Justice's most depraved foes yet.
As well as the replacement quote for Ultra Series:
Haruo Kume : Belial? I thought he was dead!
Belial: My body will soon obtain supreme power. To celebrate, I will soon blow away your planet, demonstrating my might to those fools in the Land of Light!
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
Honestly, I think there's a General Issue with Alot of people thinking Pure evil means GDV.
While I haven't seen Cinder listed as a GDV. Ive seen many essentially accuse her of being one(Claiming she has no personality or goals. Even though she clearly has both)
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lord of Hell
I swear to god, we might need to have a Generic Doomsday Villain cleanup thread at this rate.
Lizzid people!
RIP Akira Toriyama
Largo. I vastly prefer the other Largo we've got up. Tentative to Deucalion.
The SQUIP is a no-kill CM. He's just evil enough for such a low-key setting he still qualifies.
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
I think the reason we don't have a GDV clenaup is that most of the charachters, by there very nature would be very boring. And it would be hard to keep interest.
So I think just deleting Misused examples for now works fine.
Things are really about to get Fun around here
Mmm... I have to say no. Other really nasty secondary villains like Harkon and the Archmage (the former's responsible for an outright massacre) failed our standard, so I don't see how he cuts above.
Gentle Laborer
to the above
huh... alright, guess we'll have to go with Margaret and her drill.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
A massacrer failed the heinous standard? Ah, 90s cartoons, what would we do without you?
EDIT: A massacrer apparently played by Clancy Brown nonetheless
Edited by ACW on Mar 26th 2019 at 6:14:28 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Hakon is one I've wanted to make a case for in the past, but... eugh.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Eugh...just not bad enough compared to the current trio?
Incidentally, Archmage was David Warner.
I'm sure I've asked this, but Sevarius: Not heinous enough either?
Found this on Warner's page:
- SS General Reinhard Heydrich - twice. First in the 1978 miniseries Holocaust, and later in the 1985 TV movie Hitler's SS: Portrait in Evil.
Warner as Heydrich...I'd be surprised if neither counted.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Goku Black
Anasi
Go ahead man. If you feel its possible than theres nothing stopping you.
Btw since Emilio Largo is going up? What about the version of him from the alternate contity film Never Say Never Again (Never seen it). Would he be worth an ep as well?
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2019 at 3:18:28 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Sevarius gets a redeeming quality later in the series. Granted, Weissman considers all but the first episode of the third season non-canon, but I don't think that was ever made official.
Hakon is tough. The massacre of the gargoyle clan in the beginning of the series is one of the defining crimes of the series and he's got some pretty nasty moments outside of that, but...
May i suggest the image of The Grinning Man
◊ for Silent Hill page?