During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Mmm....the only thing that makes me hesitant is Azazel has come back quite a bit in flashback episodes that have expanded on him. Like his mass slaughter of the nuns in that one flashback. Also, he was the driving force behind a ton of operations that others took over after his death, so a lot of it can be imputed to him (like the Croatoa Virus)
Zachariah is more small scale, yeah, but he's also a cog in a large machine as opposed to a nigh invincible archangel. Even then, the guy is fond of using the souls of loved ones against his enemies, cold blooded torture and badly wants to cleanse the world in fire. What shoves him over the edge for me is he's willing to incinerate 6 billion souls for nothing more than a promotion to a cushier job. No other angel even compares to him.
The Leviathans were beings locked in Purgatory before creation. 'Dick Roman,' the leader (not his real name obviously, thename of his host), incorporates an idea to introduce additives to foods that make humans basically cattle.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Those were all awful things Azazel did, but I'm not sure that outweighs the general ambiguity. As for his plans being taken over by the likes of Lilith and Alistair, the problem there is trying to figure out is the plan evil because a CM wrote it? Or because a CM implemented it?
I'm cool with Roman. Regardless of whether he has to feed on people, making one of your own men cannibalise himself is uniqely awful.
EDIT: I forgot to mention this earlier—I would never deny that the three Horsemen who are listed (Pestilence, War, Famine) are bastards, but as Anthropomorphic Personifications shackled to Lucifer's will, I'm not sure how good their moral agency is.
EDIT: Pestilence cares about Famine and War. Should probably be cut. I'd also note that of the three, Famine's likely the worst, and might well exclude War through his own viciousness.
EDIT: Since no one else was posting one, here's my attempted rewrite for Hagatai from the manga for Bokurano. Keep in mind I haven't actually read it.
- The manga version of Hagatai from Bokurano seduces a middle school girl, convincing her that he loves her, only to then have her gangraped. He then blackmails her into staying silent, while he moves on to his next target. He may not have been an alien, or the operator of a Humongous Mecha, but when it comes to being just plain disgusting, no one else in the manga comes close.
edited 10th Mar '13 11:48:43 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
It's notable that Death is the only Horseman there against his will. The others are there quite willingy.
Looks good for Hatagai. What makes it worse is he's dating the girl's older sister
OK, Dr Psyche, after having read back the thread and watched Seconds from Disaster's episode on Anders Breivik to settle my mind on what to keep in mind when assigning Complete Monster, and I've decided that put of heinousness standards and the final outcome, only FilmLamia qualifies.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Avatar by Leafsnake
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Thank you
RE Supernatural: Ha! Beat you Ambar, I made it until season 7!... And yet I don't feel like much of a winner... Huh. Anyway, here are my opinions.
- Alistair and Lilith: Pretty solid keeps. He's the prime Torture Technician of hell, she's baby-eating succubus, together: they try to bring about the apocalypse.
- Azazel: I vote cut because, a) he does care about his children, b) he's not as heinous as Alistair and Lilith, and c) he genuinely is loyal to Lucifer whom he worships and sees as a god/pseudo-father figure, as seen in the flashback before and after he slaughters the nuns.
- Lucifer: I think I already voted cut for him, since he was willing to let Gabriel live and felt sorry for killing him, in addition to the whole, loving god thing. He also loves Michael and when the two finally meet to start their showdown which will herald the apocalypse, Lucifer, not Michael, is the one that says they don't have to accept this destiny.
- Four (Well, three) Horsemen: Cut. War, Famine and Pestilence don't really surpass the heinous standard. Besides, Death is just an aspect of the universe fulfilling his job, so I really see no reason why that isn't the same for the other three. Their entire purpose/job is: bring about end of world. Also Pestilence at least seems to care about his brothers, since he was enraged when the Winchesters "killed" War and Famine.
- Zachariah: I’d say cut for Zachariah. He wants to start the apocalypse but the problem is, so do most angels. Granted Zachariah’s the only one doing it out of ambition, but I'm not sure he's that much worse than any other angel, and he's definitely not as bad as Lilith and Alistair.
- Dick Roman: I'd say keep. While the Leviathans are Always Chaotic Evil, being their leader Dick comes across as the worst one. Plus he's the one with the plan to turn the planet into a slaughterhouse for humans while poisoning the other monsters so he won't have to share.
- Possessed Man: No. Cut. All of the women he murdered were offscreen and the worst thing we actually see him do is kill a puppy. Besides, he seems to "like" the demon that possessed him, and his entire motivation in the episode is to "get back together with it."
- Crowley: As I've said, I haven't seen all of season 8 so far, which is where he becomes the Big Bad. I've seen a few episodes and Crowley seems crueler and more bloodthirsty than earlier appearances, but from what I've seen he hasn't really surpassed the heinous standard in any memorable way. I'm leaning towards cut, but I can't give a solid opinion until I've seen, or am told about, what he does in season 8.
edited 8th Mar '13 2:57:50 PM by OccasionalExister
With Zachariah, he sees the Apocalypse as purely something for his own advancement. He's a Fantastic Racist who hates humanity and wants to see it burn. That puts him a cut above other angels in the series.
Not only that, Zachariah is the only one to use Cold-Blooded Torture. He also gets frighteningly creative and it's his idea to grab the souls of the Winchesters' loved ones for blackmail material. I mean, he fails, but still..
Even enemy angels have a sense of standards. As ice cold and cruel as he is, Raphael isn't as bad as him. Nor is Michael
Oh and his idea of fun is to go into a bar, burn out the peoples eyes there and then calmly chat with them as they die.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
So we got rid of Crossbones because he loves Sin and isn't as bad as Skull; what about Zola?
Also, Lighty, here's some info on Strucker: http://marvel.com/universe/Baron_Strucker
Oh, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_von_Strucker
Yeesh.
edited 8th Mar '13 5:31:17 PM by ACW
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Went thru the Cartoon Network YMMV pages and collected entries that aren't on the subpage:
- Sometimes Zorak and Moltar remind us all too well that they're dangerous criminals; Moltar mangled and ate Meatwad in "Baffler Meal" but treated it like a totally normal practical joke, and Zorak is so cruel he can eat his own nephew free of remorse.
- Although Moltar only killed Meatwad because Meatwad begged him to.
- Sister Thornley, by far the most evil character in the series, is responsible for many of the Dude, Not Funny! moments involving Otto.
- There is also J.T Laser and his partner Lance. In their only appearance, although they were a Time Squad unit too, they are showed being actually evil and these two didn't hesitate to sacrifice Tuddrussel, Larry and Otto to accomplish their mission.
- Calling J.T. Laser and the Lance Nine Trillion complete monsters is a bit much. At best, they were jerkasses who screwed over Larry and Tuddrussell.
- There is also J.T Laser and his partner Lance. In their only appearance, although they were a Time Squad unit too, they are showed being actually evil and these two didn't hesitate to sacrifice Tuddrussel, Larry and Otto to accomplish their mission.
- Ragnarok. He destroys suns for a living, not caring if planets in the system support life or not. And all for money at that. And apparently, he likes doing it, since he waited the entire time his sun destroyer was sealed away trying to find instead of moving on to something less omnicidal and threats killing Kevin's father like no big deal.
- Darkstar tends to go in this territory as well; it says something that he was one of the few actually evil villains introduced in the White-and-Grey Morality first season.
- Also, Addwagia in "Where the Magic Happens", who wiped out a whole species of magic users including Charmcaster's parents just so he could rule their dimension and be in control of all magic. Some in the Fan Dumb think Charmcaster falls into this trope too once she replaces Addwagia, by trying to sacrifice thousands of lives to a cthulu monster, but she's called on it by her father, is treated sympathetically in-story after her Villainous BSoD, and is trying to get her act together, so this, coupled with statments from Word of God saying she isn't truly evil and is supposed to be a gray-shaded Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds, makes it highly unlikely.
- Morgg from "Nor Iron Bars a Cage" also qualifies. He hates a guy for mentoring and reforming other prisoners in Incarcecon and just waits for an opportunity to murder him first chance he gets, intending to follow up by murdering the 11 year old boy the guy spent a long time reforming to dispose of a witness. After becoming warden, he turns the prison into a slave labor camp to mine drugs for him to sell, having no problem offing anyone who crosses him and making it look like an accident. The guy is such a monster that likely the only reason Ben and Gwen stop Kevin from killing him is to avoid Kevin held accountable for murder.
- Captain Nemesis became one when he returned for another episode. The first time, he merely tried to kill someone. This time, he actually succeeded. Several times. Charmcaster at least had her mess undone and Word of God states she's no longer evil and will now be looking to get better. His deeds are permanent, and though he does get a Pet the Dog moment at the end, he shows no actual remorse. Ben and Gwen outright call him a monster and pure evil several times.
- Malware. The guy is, in Ben's own words, a complete psychopath. And God does he show it. As if the fact he's been shown outright murdering members of his own race, he ends up destroying his own homeplanet.
Ben 10/Generator Rex: Heroes United
- Alpha; while he was initially feeding on Evos because he needed to in order to survive, he becomes more and more aggressive as the special goes on; when he turns into Alpha-Omega, he was actually about to destroy the whole city and kill everyone inside it.
- The janitor on the "Mutilation Ball" episode when it's revealed that the "balls" the robot kids use for Mutilation Ball are really the babies of a peaceful race of blue balls that were kidnapped from their parents and that robots who "go pro" (read: get sent to the formerly peaceful blue ball planet to fight the angry parents) aren't supposed to defeat them all; they're supposed to "get caught up in a pointless battle with no end."
Green Lantern: The Animated Series
- Drusa, especially in her second appearance. She merely knocked Aya out the first time to hijack the ship. The second time, she took over her motor functions to use her as a puppet, then practically reveled in the fact that she was going to destroy Aya's emotions to make her compliant.
- The Anti-Monitor: exterminated countless populations in the Steam universe, screws over one of the last surviving planets, and plans on doing the same to the Lantern universe. And just in case you might think he is merely feeding, he restrains Hal and forces him to watch his friends be eaten, so he clearly enjoys making people suffer.
Jonny Quest: The Real Adventures
- Several of the villains qualify, Jeremiah Surd perhaps most of all. Among other things, he prepares to unleash deadly nerve gas on Chicago and smugly compares it to crushing ants while crossing the road, and tries to terminate the Quest team in various horrific ways; one particularly cruel plan of his is detailed on the show's Nightmare Fuel page.
- Mr. Wacko, a character built around willingness to hurt minors. The first time he showed up, he just meant to imprison them in their rooms, but the second he wanted to give them exploding bubblegum and make their heads explode.
- Gotcha Grabmore from Fur-Gone Conclusion and Whale's Tales. She tries to skin a baby seal, kill a whale for it's blubber for cosmetics, kill it's baby for baby oil, and tries to saw Babs and Buster in half!
Phew... I also found some on Star Wars: The Clone Wars, but since we're working on a Star Wars page, I'll save it for that discussion.
edited 8th Mar '13 5:56:35 PM by TVRulezAgain
I nominate Leland Vanhorn, aka Serial Killer X from Condemned.
He's a serial killer who kills other serial killers with their own M.O. But unlike Dexter Morgan, he's no viglante seeking justice, as he kills plenty of innocence too. I won't count the serial killers because they deserved it, but his innocent victims include two police officers, his own uncle, the mayor, and a few unnamed members of the Oro (a 3000 year old cult). He attempts to kill protagonist Ethan Thomas slowly and painfully, starting with chopping off his finger. He also had killed his uncle after the latter had nursed him back to health. He does save Ethan's life at some point in the sequal, but it was a case of Pragmatic Villainy. The second game ends with him joining the Oro.
Keep in mind, that the games take place in a Crapsack World, but SKX stands out among everyone else. The Oro may be a cult, but it's implied they are trying to protect others like them. Even Dorland, the Big Bad of the second game, believes this. SKX on the other hand does it all For the Evulz.
PS: Anymore say regarding Alex?
Avatar by Leafsnake
Captain Nemesis: Pet the Dog, means he's cut.
Malware, I maintain a no, Alpha, I brought him up before, Psychotic Manchild who needs to kill other people to survive, cut.
Green Lantern TAS: Brought up Drusa before, not heinous enough, Anti-Monitor, Generic Doomsday Villain, but he's going to return in an episode tomorrow, and the series is ending next week, so I'm going to wait until then.
I find it odd that no one's suggested Ragnar, he murdered a lantern, took over his planet, enslaved the locals for the Red Lanterns and tried to have his sister executed. He doesn't count of course, but I'm surprised that Drusa was added and not him.
Sister Thornley: No, from what I remember she's just a cruel nun who runs an orphanage. JT and Lance, first off, natter, second, the natter is right, they are just jerkasses.
If that's what the heinous standard I'm leaning towards keep, I'll wait and see if there are any nay arguments.
edited 8th Mar '13 7:04:12 PM by DrPsyche
Just watched the Cold Case episode "Slipping", with the character Dan Patterson who is listed on the TV page. I'm going to say yes, keep him. I can describe this guy as basically a gaslighter Up To Eleven; if you've seen the MST 3 K episode "The Screaming Skull," he's like the villain in that movie, only actually scary.
@9760: That's not exactly true. Zachariah wasn't in the bar killing people for fun. He was there Drowning His Sorrows because he feared his bosses were going to kill him for failing them so many times, and he was actually chatting quite amiably with another of the bar's patrons. The angel who killed his drinking buddy and the bartender was one of his superiors, and even then these deaths weren't planned by either Zachariah or his superiors. Angel speech is fatal to most mortals except those "special" enough to be vessels for them. Zachariah does display a Lack of Empathy over the death of the human he had just been bonding with (both of them had been "fired"), but he wasn't the one who killed the man. This actually reminds me of a good point against Zachariah's inclusion. Zachariah's bosses are ordering him to procure Dean as a vessel for Michael to bring on the apocalypse, and they plan on killing Zachariah if he fails. His kidnapping the soul of the Winchesters' half-brother, Adam, was his last chance to have his life spared, and the idea was his superiors' not Zachariah's own. Zachariah is the worst angel we see, but he's not among the worst characters we see.
edited 8th Mar '13 8:13:08 PM by OccasionalExister
The only thing about that is Zachariah uses Adam rather gleefully and has no compunction doing horrible things to the Winchesters before he gets fired for screwing up once too many times.
I wouldn't put much stock in Zachariah bonding with that guy, either. He was mainly whining to anyone who'd hear him out and called the guy a pathetic monkey at one point.
edited 8th Mar '13 8:19:57 PM by Lightysnake
Being "gleeful" isn't enough though. Not when stacked against Lilith and Alistair.
Keep Serial Killer X
Cut Moltar and Zorak
I'll defer to Dr. Psyche for Ben 10
Robotomy I don't know
Cut the Green Lantern examples
Johnny Test no idea
Cut Tiny Toons Adventures
For Johnny Quest, keep Surd. Needs rewrite
@9767: Oh, I wasn't trying to say that "friendship" was anything redeeming. I just wanted to point out that he doesn't murder people For the Evulz. I know Zachariah also tortures people, but he only really does it to the Winchesters and Adam, and a lot of other villains torture people too. Lilith, Crowley, Alistair, etc. Compared to them, Zachariah doesn't seem too impressive at it.
@9762: Examples:
- Space Ghost Coast To Coast: I think Klavice brought up these examples before. I'll vote cut on them for Comedic Sociopathy.
- Time Squad: Sister Thornley's abuse is Played for Laughs and she's merely a Jerkass who doesn't meet a base level of heinousness. The same goes for J.T. Lazer and the Lance 9 Trillion. The joke of the episode is that Tudrussel and Larry keep hero-worshipping them without realizing what horrible people they are.
- Ben10:
- Ragnarok: If he wipes out planets for a living, I could see him counting but I'd need more detail.
- Darkstar: He's like an alien vampire right? He seduces then drains the beauty and life from girls, I think? Thinking he fails the heinous standard.
- Addwagia: Thinking he fails the heinous standard. Cut.
- Morgg: On-the-fence. Need more info.
- Captain Nemesis: Cut. Definitely fails the heinous standard and has good qualities.
- Malware: Cut for reasons Dr Psyche gave earlier.
- Alpha: Also cut for being kind of a woobie with skewed morals.
- Robotomy: Cut the Janitor. Seriously that show Crosses the Line Twice in every conceivable way. In general, robots in that show don't mind killing each other or being killed, since it seems a part of their culture or something. I mean, this is a species of robots that put peaceful/defective robots into the Sunshine class, which is deliberately based on a special kids' class, then kills them by shooting them into the sun. (God, that was a disturbing episode.) Anyway, since everyone on the planet the show is set on seems to be involved in perpetual war against literally every other robot, I doubt one character starting another war is sufficiently heinous enough to count.
- Green Lantern The Animated Series:
- Drusa: Cut, sounds like she fails the heinous standard compared to Atrocitus or the Anti-Monitor.
- Anti-Monitor: I'll wait for Dr Psyche to give his opinion next week before casting a vote.
- Jonny Quest The Real Adventures: I'd need more info but I wouldn't rule Jeremiah Surd out solely based on that entry. Trying to wipe out a city could be considered heinous enough provided other villains don't try to do worse.
- Johnny Test: Are you freaking kidding me? It's Played for Laughs, all of it. Cut Wacko damnit!
- Tiny Toon Adventures: I vote cut on Gotcha Grabmore for failing the heinous standard. She doesn't sound worse than most cartoon villains.
@9763: Based on that, I'd be alright with adding Leland from Condemned.
edited 8th Mar '13 9:05:47 PM by OccasionalExister
I would say that not only does Zacariah not seem that impressive, but as you noted, he's acting on behalf of his superiors. As I said before, I think the issue with Zacariah is that because he's nominally one the heroes' side, the fandom treats his bad acts as being far more severe than those of similar bad acts on the part of the villains. The Ethan Ryer discussion again comes to mind. He's a Smug Snake and Jerkass. He's got plenty of Kick the Dog moments. He may have crossed the Moral Event Horizon, and on a good day, would still be a Knight Templar. On the other hand, he's not nearly as bad as the people he's fighting against. If Lilith and/or Alistair are the ones we use as our standard, Zacariah comes up short.
Avatar by Leafsnake
Regarding the Ben 10 examples: I'm still watching Ultimate Alien so I don't know much about Addwagia (other than it may be spelled Adwaita), Morgg, Nemesis (It says Pet the Dog, so cut), Diagon, or Aggregor.
Ragnarok: He wipes out suns for a living, it's mentioned that he does it for systems with living planets dependent on them. It's all offscreen though. He fights Max and Devin Levin (Kevin's father), injures the former and kills the latter. They had stolen the key to his sun destroying machine when he revealed he was going to destroy earth's sun.
He's sent to prison, but escapes killing a guard or two, gets to earth and trashes Kevin's house.
He finds the key eventually, summons his ship and tries to drain The Solar System's sun. Kevin fights him, defeats him, and lets him fall to his death among pleas for mercy. That was his only appearance, one episode.
Why was Grandfather from Codename Kids Next Door removed?
All it ever said that his actions wasn't heinous enough.
Treating children like slaves Turning everyone into Citi-zombies Trying to kill his son without remorse
Iunno. When reading through the thread, I did find a lot of contradictory information.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Grandfather was cut because while he was the most heinous character in the show, his actions were too ridiculous to be treated seriously. The tone of the show was pretty bizarre in general, and Grandfather never broke free from the whackiness most villains fall prey to. I think Hamburger Time said it best, "Enslaving children in factories? Heinous. Enslaving children in factories to make tapioca pudding for only him to consume? It's too silly a concept to take seriously." Likewise turning everyone into zombies isn't taken that seriously because the zombies are still used as a source of humor not horror.
@9772: Thank you, Dr. Psyche. Based on that, I think I'd be willing to keep Ragnarrok since we see him attempt to destroy a sun onscreen, which confirms his Offscreen Villainy as a world-destroyer.
Also, I'll add the Xehanort entry here, to the sandbox later today, then request a cut for the Monster.Kingdom Hearts page. Thanks to Paireon and Footsteps for the feedback.
edited 9th Mar '13 9:39:03 AM by OccasionalExister
I think that ambiguity might be a reason to cut with Azazel, if only because there's no ambiguity with Lilith, Alistair, or from the sounds of it, Roman. If the show ended at Season 2, I'd say Yellow Eyes was a keep, but after seven seasons I'm not so sure.
Zacariah—again he's a total prick, and I won't be sorry if he stays. I'm just not sure if he measures up to the crimes Lucifer is engaged in though.
edited 8th Mar '13 12:13:31 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar