Old Magnificent Bastard thread
Welcome to the Magnificent Bastard proposal thread! This is the thread where new Magnificent Bastard examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential mitigating features will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the MB subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite MB" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from other parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for MB equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, their goals and methodology, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some characters, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
How are they Magnificent?
This is the point where you highlight the character's brilliance. How to they convey their intelligence and charm to the audience? What makes them stand out among the crowd? What are their goals and how do they go about accomplishing them? This part welcomes a lot of creative thinking — not everyone has to be a Machiavellian Diabolical Mastermind to be worth considering here! This is also the time to showcase how the character can think on their feet if it's necessary.
How are they a Bastard? How are they not too bad?
What kinds of moral lines is this character willing to cross for the sake of their goal? Are they willing to let innocents die? Start wars? Commit crimes? The character has to show some kind of unscrupulousness in order to count as a "Bastard". Notably, this character does not necessarily have to be the villain, and an Anti-Hero can cross the line if they're immoral enough, but they have to be immoral somehow.
This is also the section where you then state your case for why they're not too bad. Perhaps their good intentions help mitigate their crimes. Perhaps others are shown to be much worse than them. Perhaps they're prone to Pet the Dog moments or are even fighting on behalf of loved ones. Whatever the case, there are certain lines that an MB can't cross, but as long as their villainy is reasonable for their goal, they can be considered.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:40:56 AM
Barb / Temporary Kylo
Not going to vote on Cyrus myself.
The First man
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Not voting on Cyrus out of principal but yes to Hayes
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
I just woke up to and not sure what happened since Ravok's post got thumped. I'm making the assumption that he said he reserved Cyrus or something, but he wrote nowhere in his Richton effort post that he was doing Cyrus. I even P Med him asking if he thought Cyrus would be a good candidate, and his response was simply that he agreed. Nowhere has he made me aware he wanted to Cyrus.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Showtime!
Looking over the PM messages sent, I can see the confusion. I did specifically just say I've been thinking on Cyrus for a while and asked Ravok if he thought he had potential, but I never specifically said I planned on doing an effort post myself. Ravok's PM response also didn't specifically say he was doing an effort post.
It had been several days since the CM and I honestly don't see Ravok posting on here much anymore. Thus I thought it was fair game with no indication otherwise.
I'm assuming with a thumped post, choice words were said, so I will retract the effort post and let Ravok do it if that will maintain civility and a positive working relationship.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
RIP Toriyama
EP can be left up and folks can vote based on its merits, I've lost the desire to do it and have already deleted the EP I had written up, so it's fine. Yes to Cyrus and Hayes.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Do you still want to discuss things in PM or do you want to move on from the matter? I don't want there to be any bad blood.
Edited by LoreDeluxe on Jan 18th 2024 at 11:56:40 AM
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
RIP Toriyama
Let's just move on. Breakdown of communication is all it falls down to, let's just let it lie.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Woagh
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Hayes and Cyrus.
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
Jogo
Cyrus
I think I have finally decided that I’m ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
-ing not only Willie, but Al too, because those 2 actions I mentioned are really the only things he does on his own, and they don’t really stand out to everything else Joe does.
(Well I guess there’s too how when Joe proposes giving Pete a part of their money, Al is the one who comes up with saying that it’s Willie’s life insurance, but this is still coming out of an idea from Joe, so it still doesn’t feel like it stands out)
Edited by Rhino8888 on Jan 18th 2024 at 11:15:23 AM
Goku Black
Alright. I'll switch to Al as well.
Hayes, Cyrus.
I've decided to give a try to a Spirited Young Lady... a Paleolithic Spirited Young Lady. Katu, Plutonia.
The Work
Plutonia is a 1924 sci-fi novel by geologist and geographer Vladimir Obruchev. In it, a group of explorers discover a prehistoric Hollow World (that they dub Plutonia) inside the Earth.The Character
Katu is a Paleolithic-level teenage girl. Her tribe lives in Plutonia and, one day, captures two of the explorers, Borovoy and Igolkin. Seeing their clearly very advanced technology and the well-built yurt, they decide to idolize them. Literally - as in "revere them immensely but not let them go".Katu develops a crush on Borovoy and often brings him extra food. After the rest of the explorers catch up with the tribe and Borovoy and Igolkin (having learned their language) announce their departure, the women of the tribe follow them and try to persuade the two of them to go back. The negotiations escalate to a fight after Katu throws a dart and nearly kills one of the explorers. The explorers shoot at the women with small shrapnel, intending to scare them off rather than hurt them seriously, but one of them accidentally grabs the gun loaded with bullets and wounds Katu in the leg.
At first Katu thinks she'll get eaten (her people deal with the severely wounded this way) and pleads with the explorers to leave her to die by herself instead. Igolkin manages to convince her they're not planning to eat her. When she realizes they are taking her further away from her tribe's settlement, she tries to flee, and even with her injured leg, they barely manage to recapture her.
However, after it becomes clear to her that they're not going to eat her anyway, she soon gains a lot of confidence and backbone. A few days later, she promises not to try to escape anymore and gets untied (but one of the explorers always keeps watch over her). She learns some Russian and listens to the explorers' stories about the 20th-century world, but when they try to persuade her to accompany them to the mainland, she firmly tells them no, she prefers it at home with her mother (in Russian, if broken, no less).
One day, the explorers save one of them left to watch Katu leave on a hunt, and the watcher dozes off. He wakes up to find out that: 1) Katu has escaped 2) on his skis (the narrative reveals she has learned to ski) 3) having also stolen her blanket, a knife, a large piece of ham, and a matchbox (the narrative reveals she has learned to use matches too).
The explorers realize that it would be both cruel and impractical to look for Katu now, and leave Plutonia without any Paleolithic company.
Is she magnificent?
Obruchev's heroines somehow manage to out-badass the heroes (considering the male Chromosome Casting of the central characters in his books and his general Excuse Plot writing - it's the geology that really mattered to him - it was probably unintentional). A teenage Paleolithic girl learns a language way more difficult than her own in mere weeks (even though she only speaks at You No Take Candle level, it's said she still can talk about abstract matters with the explorers), overcomes her tribe's fear of fire (in the months that Borovoy and Igolkin spend among the tribe, nobody even dares to mimic their ability to create fire) and learns to light the matches, and learns to ski.She is extremely scared after her capture, but that's pretty justified since she is in a lot of pain due to her wound and she thinks she's about to get eaten. Nevertheless, rather than meekly accept her fate, she first begs the explorers to let her Face Death with Dignity and then attempts an escape. Later, though she grows even more respectful towards the explorers as she sees firsthand their "magical abilities" with technology, guns, cooking etc., she remains determined to return home and doesn't hesitate to flee at the first opportunity.
Is she a bitch?
For all the What Measure Is a Non-Human? attitude of the explorers (along with them judging the sapience level by the facial features which, um, is uncomfortable to read today), the tribe attacked and captured them first (they weren't even aware of its existence before that) and the women, Katu included, tried to recapture them despite Igolkin telling them they needed to leave. It was Katu throwing a dart at the explorers that led to the latter grabbing their guns.Conclusion?
You decide.Edited by AutumnLeaves on Jan 18th 2024 at 1:39:45 PM
Here is a writeup:
- Dave Norton is a corrupt FIB agent and the brains of Steve Haines' unit. Making a deal with Michael to get him into witness protection if he betrays Trevor and Brad, Dave successfully kills Brad and uses him to fake Michael's death and then poses as Brad through emailing Trevor to keep tabs on him for the next 10 years. In the present day, he plans out the majority of the FIB's secret missions that involve raiding other government buildings and stealing valuable cargo that the protagonists take part in. Being the last member left of his unit by the end of the game, Dave gets away with everything he does and even reaps a couple of benefits through the death of Steve, ending things off with Michael by telling him to live his life and not return to being a criminal.
A Child from the Stars
for Cyrus. for Al.
Anyway, here's my second write-up:
Man on the Internet: Undertale the Musical: W.D. Gaster is the former royal scientist of the Underground who watched the human's every move throughout the Underground from the Void. After they killed his two sons, Gaster would return to the physical world to confront Chara to stop their genocidal rampage, fighting them across time and space before eventually tricking them into stabbing themself. After trapping Chara in the Void, he would use their DETERMINATION to end the war between humans and monsters, resetting reality itself by changing the past for the better. In this new timeline, Gaster would have the SOUL create a vessel, only to discard it as he believed that choices didn't matter in this world, indirectly leading to the SOUL becoming part of Kris. At some point, he would speak to Spamton and drive him mad, telling him that he's "alone" which would lead him to become the mad businessman he is now. It is also implied that he may indeed be the mysterious Knight, creating several fountains that could have led to the destruction of the Balance between Light and Dark.
"If we're gonna play Owl House, we're gonna NEED an Owl House!"
Abstain on Cyrus.
Edited by Vrx04 on Jan 18th 2024 at 8:36:13 AM
Never Ask Me For Anything Ever Again
The Work
Final Fantasy XVI is the latest mainline title in the Final Fantasy series, where the setting of Valisthea is home to two continents - "Storm", shared by several different nations and states, and "Ash", controlled fully by the Kingdom of Waloed.The Candidate
Barnabas Tharmr is the current King of Waloed and the Dominant of Odin, having reigned for decades ever since arriving on Ash from distant lands and never having aged a day in terms of his physical appearance. Since his arrival, he conquered Ash single-handedly through his own skill and force, and has been its King ever since then, leading to him gaining the moniker of "The Last King''.In reality, Barnabas Tharmr is actually an undead Akashic who is serving Ultima, but between the two is generally the one who gets his hands dirty while Ultima generally remains in the background. His motivations for serving Ultima have to do with his misanthropy for the rest of the world, believing that humans are beyond saving in their current form and working with Ultima to transform the rest of them into Akashic.
Barnabas is an excellent manipulator, playing many power players in Valisthea against one another for his own benefit. He uses Benedikta Harmann to control Hugo Kupka and the region of Dhalmekia, and when Benedikta is killed, sends Hugo her head in a box under the guise that it was Cidolfus Telamon who did it, leading to Hugo Kupka attacking The Hideaway and setting Clive Rosfield, Ultima's chosen vessel, on the path to killing Kupka and taking his power as the Dominant of Titan. During this, he also provides Kupka with the manpower to attack Rosalith and capture it so that Clive will gain Kupka's power, and fights on the frontlines of Waloed's war with the Sanbreque Empire, coming into conflict with Dion Lesage, the Dominant of Bahamut more than once, who is Barnabas' main rival as the strongest Dominant in Valisthea. He also directly manipulates Kupka into madness through manifesting an extension of himself called Sleipnir Habard, allowing him to further manipulate Kupka under the impression that Sleipnir is a separate person entirely.
Eventually, Barnabas comes into direct conflict with Clive by turning the people of Dhalmekia's capital into Akashic while Clive's allies are in the city, manipulating Clive into going to the capital himself and fighting him one-on-one as both Sleipnir and Barnabas' regular self. The latter fight ends in a sounding defeat for Clive and forces his Love Interest Jill Warrick to stay behind and hold Barnabas off while everyone else makes their escape, causing Warrick to be capture - which is all according to Barnabas' own plan to break Clive. He then has his forces pursue Clive and his allies until they attack the main ship of Waloed's fleet and rescue Jill, only for Barnabas to do battle with the Phoenix and cause Clive and Jill to be separate from their allies. He then battles Clive again, and hands him another defeat that forces him and Jill to flee from Barnabas once again.
In his final confrontation with Clive, Barnabas ends up being met with a much more determined Clive, and ends up taking much more sadistic glee in fighting him once he realizes that he has finally met a Worthy Opponent in Clive. Savoring his last fight and enjoying it to its fullest extent, Barnabas never breaks or despairs over Clive beating him, fully planning on dying to Clive's sword to further Ultima's plans. When Clive mortally wounds him, Barnabas forcibly transfers Odin's power to Clive despite the latter's attempt at resisting, putting him one step closer to becoming Ultima's vessel. Satisfied at bringing his master's plan closer to fruition, Barnabas Tharmr dies peacefully and accepting of his death, looking forward to being reunited in the afterlife with his mother.
Is he magnificent?
The bulk of Barnabas' screentime has him playing major players and faction in Valisthea against each other for the benefit of his master's plan that he wholeheartedly supports. Powerful politicians and deadly assassins become pawns to him as they die or go insane, while still challenging Clive Rosfield to his absolute limits and even beating him twice before Clive is strong enough to defeat Barnabas. In addition, Barnabas is one of the most intimidating characters of the setting, being The Stoic who pretty much scares everyone else into submission or takes things by force, and in terms of raw power, his eikon Odin is among the most feared in Valisthea.
When Barnabas finally meets an equal match in Clive, he ends up going insane in glee at finally having someone who can measure up to him, but never loses control of Odin the way other Dominants lost control of their Eikons throughout the game, instead being fully in command of Odin the entire time during his final confrontation while still providing Clive a challenge whenever he isn't manifesting Odin. His last moments are spent scoring a final victory over Clive, and even post-mortem Clive admits to Barnabas being a sincere believer in what he was aiming for, earning some begrudging respect from his foe.
Is he a bastard?
Absolutely. Barnabas is all in on Ultima's plans to destroy all life in Valisthea, the bulk of which consists of turning humans into the completely mindless Akashic against their will. In addition, he relies on deceit and trickery to manipulate the various power players of Valisthea against each other, usually resulting in many innocent people paying the price for his manipulations without expressing a shred of regret. Near the end of the game, he even allows for the people of his own Kingdom to be turned into Akashic, fully content on leading them to their deaths. He's also much more of a bastard than Clive, Jill, Cid, and Dion, all of whom are currently classified as magnificent bastards despite ultimately fighting for a good cause and being decent people in the long run - whereas Barnabas is worse of a person and is willing to use even worse ends to achieve his goals.
Conclusion?
Up to you guys.
Edited by TimeLordVictorious on Jan 18th 2024 at 8:54:47 AM
"Shout, shout, let it all out These are the things I can do without, come on I'm talking to you, come on!" -Tears For Fears
I'd say Barnabas is too much of Ultima's pawn, and Ultima ultimately intended to wipe out humanity rather than honour his promise of letting them live with him so long as they forsake their free will. So for Barnabas it was All for Nothing. If Ultima was genuine, I might be more forgiving.
Barny, for me, comes off as a bit too tragic, a bit too pitiful and a bit too gullible.
I am a no, but it's a good EP.
If people want I go more in depth on why I think Barny doesn't count later; right now I am gonna try and nap.
EDIT: I'd also argue he's too much of a bastard - the treatment of Bearers in the Kingdom of Waloed is among the worst in Valisthea, only rivalled by the Iron Kingdom. There is an Orphanage of Fear where children regularly die from the training they undergo and a prison where Bearers are forced to fight an experimental monster or simply fed to it, for starters.
I actually think his Right Hand, Sleipnir, is closer, and I even have an EP in the wings for him.
Edited by PolarPhantom on Jan 19th 2024 at 8:11:03 AM
I'm gonna give a yes to Cyrus as Ravok has expressed he's no longer interested in handling the proposal, yes to Katu to but no to Barnabas.
for Katu.
for Barnabas.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Katu
She doesn't sound like a "bastard" for standards of this trope at all, to be honest.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 19th 2024 at 5:21:48 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Classy, Refined, Unstable
Right to get this out the way.
- What If…? S2E1 "What If… Nebula Joined the Nova Corps?": Nebula, a child of Thanos, keeps her mainline counterpart's efficiency but also lacks the tragic machinations of her mental state. Joining the Nova Corps, Nebula aims to keep to the side of peace, a job she repeated holds to even when Xandar has been turned to a Wretched Hive. Investigating a plot of the possible threat of an invasion, Nebula uses both ingenuity and combat efficiency to advance with her eventually breaking the criminal Yon Rogg free and releasing the other prisoners to initiate a riot to allow them to escape. Despite being betrayed by Nova Prime and Yon Rogg and almost killed, it's revealed their betrayal would've been for naught as Nebula had rigged the key that would've allowed Ronan to invade to instead backfire and destroy his ship.
RIP Toriyama
Yeah sadly don't think Barnabas quite hits, he's cool but he's very much a puppet of Ultima who is being used and manipulated with the image of his mother to do Ultima's bidding. Even if Barnabas never necessarily suffers for it onscreen, it's still a bit too much of an example of him being an Unwitting Pawn to a megalomaniacal bastard who isn't going to fulfill his end of the bargain.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
...The moment I recover from my illness I see this. I'm personally feel ashamed that it had to escalate to this. Because of the increased amount of incidents, I'm not going to switch profiles this week and will instead focus on maintaining the civility of both MB threads.
MB Pending | MB Drafts | MB Dates