Old Complete Monster cleanup thread
Welcome to the Complete Monster proposal thread! This is the thread where new Complete Monster examples are vetted, approved, and written up. If you're looking for the general cleanup thread (for cuts, rewrites, expansions, and the like), please go here
Important: Before suggesting any new examples, please read the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List; if you have any questions, the odds are high they are answered there. Additionally, please check here for the earliest date a work can be discussed (usually two weeks from the U.S. release date) and whether the work has already been reserved by another user.
Here is how the process works:
- If you have a candidate to propose, you can simply come right in and propose them! If the character's run is brief, such as a single issue of a comic book, then a simple summary of their actions and any potential redeeming qualities will be enough; for longer-running candidates, an effortpost (EP) might be helpful for organizing the proposal. An EP is not outright required, but please be mindful that if a post becomes too clunky and unorganized, it can be very hard for other people to follow.
- After the proposal, there will be a 72-hour discussion and voting period, where people may ask questions and vote on the candidate. The number of upvotes must outnumber the downvotes by at least five for the character to be considered "approved".
- Three days after the proposal has been made, if the character has been approved, you may post the writeup (the text to be posted on the trope page itself) on the thread and send it to the drafts page. Your candidate will soon be added to the CM subpage. If the work has a page, you should add your candidate to the relevant YMMV page. Voila! It's that simple!
Outside of this process, we do have a few ground rules:
- To keep the thread moving at a reasonable pace, there are some restrictions on when a proposal can be made. There should only be a maximum of four EPs posted both per page and per hour to ensure that nothing gets lost in the shuffle; additionally, each individual troper should only be proposing or writing up characters from a maximum of three works at a time (from initial proposals to end of their voting period). If your proposal would fall outside of either of these guidelines, we'd like to ask you to please wait until they would fit within; feel free to type them up on an outside document, and then when the time comes, you can just copy, paste, and post!
- No plagiarism of any kind. This is a very serious matter site-wide, as the website could get in actual legal trouble over this; as a result, this can very quickly lead to mod intervention. This can take many different forms:
- Direct plagiarism, i.e. wholesale copying. This is not only the easiest to find, but is also the most likely to warrant quick moderator intervention. To be clear, quoting in some places is perfectly acceptable, but it has to be very clear you're quoting from something else and it cannot be anything longer than a sentence or two - if you're quoting an entire work summary from Wikipedia, no one is going to believe you've actually consumed the work, so even if you cite your source, your candidate will be downvoted anyway.
- Self-plagiarism. Even if you can prove that you wrote the same text in both places, the site itself can't contain any of the duplicated text. If you already wrote something once before, it's not too hard to write it a second time.
- Using another site's work as a template for a proposal. Just because you don't copy and paste something directly doesn't mean it's any harder to detect if you're basing parts or all of your proposal on text someone else wrote. To be clear, this doesn't violate site rules and won't lead to mod intervention, but just like if you directly plagiarize, no one will believe you've consumed the work if you're clearly basing your proposal on something else. This thread largely operates on the honor system, and tweaking someone else's work to pass it off as your own is one of the fastest ways to lose trust.
- Votes must be for specific candidates, meaning no blanket voting (i.e. "yes to everyone I missed").
- If you are the first person to downvote a candidate, please provide an explanation of why when you do so. We're here for discussions above all, and a hit-and-run downvote doesn't facilitate anything.
- If a work is already reserved by another user, please don't comment on the work or any potential characters worth discussion before the discussion date. We know how exciting it is when a work has a keeper that you're waiting to talk about, but it's not fair to the person who reserved the work who is just as excited to lead the discussion to see the discussion getting spoiled before they get to do it. On the other hand, if the reservation only has one name attached, shoot them a PM - they may be down for a collaboration, which will get you in on the fun as well!
- Please keep the thread on-topic. While discussing the trope is fun and we encourage people to enjoy it, questions like "who's your favorite CM" are off-topic and can lead to thumps. That's the kind of question to take to people's PMs if they're willing. Similarly, while we encourage friendliness and familiarity with other users, posts should always have some kind of thread-relevant purpose; for instance, if you want to wish someone a happy birthday, feel free to, but if it's the only thing in the post, it's off-topic and needs something else alongside it. Again, though, while we strive for a friendly atmosphere, this is not Facebook; life updates are fun, but unless they have some kind of impact on your thread participation, please do not bring it here - we have Yack Fest for that.
- Please refrain from asking anything along the lines of "How Did We Miss This One?" In almost every case, the answer is simply "No one thought about it before". This Is a Wiki where everyone has different interests, and the fact that people missed a particular candidate, even one that seems like a textbook example of a trope or a character who is particularly iconic in pop culture, means absolutely nothing. The question is disruptive, has a simple and consistent answer, and provides nothing to any discussion.
- If you are suspended from parts of the website, it is still possible to participate!
- For users who are suspended from editing the wiki, you still have full access to this thread. You can propose candidates and write them up with no issues whatsoever; while you will have to ask someone else to post the entry to the relevant pages once it is done, all write-ups are considered thread-approved - as in, done by consensus - and thus doing so does not violate any rules regarding meatpuppeting.
- If you are suspended from the forums, your participation is limited but not impossible. It is still possible for a forum-suspended user to assist in creating the write-up for a character who has already been approved; as previously mentioned, write-ups are inherently considered a consensus-based edit and thus not tied to any one particular user. However, you can not assist in the proposal of a character; as a proposal is based around the forum rather than the wiki, doing so with a forum suspension qualifies as meatpuppeting.
- Please keep all discussions "in-house".
- What other wikis use for CM equivalents is irrelevant here.
- Please be wary of using other wikis, Fandom or otherwise, as sources of information. They are just as fallible as a site like Wikipedia in regards to accuracy because they can be edited by any user, just as this site can.
- Do not attempt to force a communication with an author in an attempt to gather evidence or settle a debate; besides the fact that this is a YMMV trope and thus author intent has variable weight depending on the circumstance, doing so may cross the line into drama exportation, which is prohibited site-wide.
If you would like to use an EP for your candidate, here's the general format. This format does not have to be followed exactly, but these are the main topics that need to be covered:
What is the work?
This is a brief summary of the work you're going to discuss. We don't need a full plot summary here, just however much we need to understand going into the discussion — it can even be as simple as quoting the summary on the work's page.
Who is the candidate and what have they done?
This is essentially the character's biography — who they are, their story, the crimes they commit, and, preferably (though not required), what happens to the candidate at the end. It does not have to include every single thing they ever do — for some villains, we'd be here all day if that was the case — but it should include the highlights of their journey.
Any redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?
This is where any potential redeeming characteristics or tragic backstory should be discussed. Do they have a tragic past? Do they show that Even Evil Has Standards or Even Evil Has Loved Ones? Maybe a Pet the Dog moment or two? This is where these should be discussed in full. Not every potential redeeming moment is a clear-cut disqualifier, but we should hear of any potential issues to ensure the character is discussed in full.
Are they bad enough?
A Complete Monster has to be particularly vile by the standard of the work they appear in. Therefore, you should look at what the character does compared to similar characters in the same work. This takes into account things like:
- Their resource level (a human Serial Killer can't stand up to an alien Omnicidal Maniac, but they can be bad by the standard of other human serial killers)
- The amount of time they have to work with (such as a one-shot character versus long-running antagonists)
- The quantity vs. quality of their crimes compared to others (someone with a lower victim count but far more visceral and personal crimes could be considered as equally bad overall as someone with a higher body count but less horror involved)
Essentially, this section is an analysis of the kinds of villainy shown in the work and an explanation of why this particular character's villainy stands out within it.
Final verdict?
This is where you post your final conclusion on the character in question. You can continue elaborating on your reasons or even just say a simple "yes" or "no"; at this point, we've heard everything we need to hear.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: This thread tackles very serious and dark matters on a daily basis. We will be discussing things like murder, rape, torture, human trafficking, crimes against children, and in particularly dark cases, several of these issues at the same time. We keep a lighthearted air, but all candidates carry the general assumption that these are awful individuals committing disgusting crimes. We ask that if you participate, you do so with the requisite seriousness such dark topics require; exclamations of how gross something is, whether serious or sarcastic, are disrespectful to the topics at hand, and if you cannot handle such topics, please do not participate.
And that's everything you need to know. Welcome to the thread!
Edited by Twiddler on Jan 17th 2024 at 5:42:49 AM
- The Cosmere
- Mistborn
- The Original Trilogy: Straff Venture
- Wax and Wayne:Telsin Ladrian/Sequence is a ruthless member of the Set, and the very worst of their ranks, and is far from the sister Wax once knew. Overseeing the torture and experimentation of Malwish to try and find the Bands of Mourning, she fools her brother into thinking that she was an unwilling participant, even killing one of her own men to maintain the guise. She keeps up appearances until a critical moment to find the Bands of Mourning, where she shoots Wax. When the search for the Bands of Mourning turns against her, she promptly flees and leaves all her subordinates behind. Resurfacing six years later, Telsin masterminds a plot to destroy the entire city of Elendel and its millions of inhabitants, claiming that it is necessary to stop an invasion from the god Autonomy, when in reality, her plan will be nearly as destructive as the invasion and is actually intended to impress Autonomy enough to make Telsin a god. When it appears her plan will succeed, Telsin reveals to Wax that she has always hated him, and gloats about her success, revealing her to be nothing more than a petty and callous individual who only cares about proving herself superior to her brother, with no care to the countless lives that her plans take.
- The Stormlight Archive: Rayse/Odium
- Mistborn
Writeup good?
Also could I get a bit more feedback on the Odium quotes it seemed as though the second one was liked, but not so much the first.
Edited by Malginel on Sep 18th 2023 at 3:42:05 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Malginel, please add to the Drafts.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Emperor of Evil!
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Arthur Pryce
Added it
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Shes mentioned in all of them, but shes only in the last two, Bands of Mourning and The Lost Metal, however she is the overall Big Bad of the books.
Have somewhere to be so won't be able to respond for a few hours.
Arthur Pryce
for Arthur
for the Smaug quote.
Not the Eye
Okay, I said this guy dosen’t count. Buuut, recent disscusion about candidates with little character passing conviced me to give him a shot, so here goes nothing.
From Six’s Shield
Who is the Craftsman? What has he done?
Creepy old man who has to move using wheel chair to move because of his long limbs. He lives in basement of mansion owned by girl known as the Pretender, his job being to create new dolls for her because she constantly keeps breaking them. His method of doing it, he has mansion’s staff bring him children whom he skins alive and uses their skins for dolls.
When Six is brought to him, he was about to use her for new doll. Six however escapes and after failing to find her the Craftsman simply uses another child for the doll. Six spends two years hiding in the house, plagued by hearing screams of countless children the Craftsman uses for his dolls. Thought Six evetually escapes and kills the Pretender, the Craftsman gets away with his crimes.
Mitigating factors?
So reason I didn’t propose him is bacause he is “on screen” really briefly and only has one line where he informs the Butler that he didn’t find Six. However we see ghastly proces of creating dolls and Six’s naration after spending two years in mansion openly described him as sadistic.
He does serve the Pretender, but from what we see he has no objection to the Butler calling her screaming brat. He and Butler do appear to have functioning relathioship, but they simply work together.
Heinous Standard?
Easy pass. He has skinned countless children alive, with how easily and constantly the Pretender seems to break her dolls easily putting his victim count in hundreds.
Conclusion?
Not sure, but given how we already let characters with little personality pass I figured he is worth a shot.
Eh, sure there.
Give me a few days for everything. Need a break before Disenchantment etc
Craftsman.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sure thing, Lighty. Hope for the best for you. :)
Craftsman.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Can shapeshift (probably)
I don't think anybody's proposed this guy yet, but as someone who's rewatched Wind River recently (I can't stomach an uninterrupted watchthrough because the unrealistic parts are really unrealistic and That Makes Me Feel Angry, so I did it bit by it) I realized he might be overdue:
Who is Pete Mickens and what has he done?
In-universe he's treated as an Anti-Climax Boss of sorts, which works a lot in the film's favor since it's in an isolated area within an isolated area (a Neglected Rez in Wyoming), and it allows him to really take center stage regardless. He's introduced drunk off his ass, greeting the soon-to-be-murdered Natalie Hanson with what can best be described as a girdle-incised grin. He shoddily comes on to her while his oil rig buddies slowly step out of the trailer. Pete leads the group in perving on Token Good Teammate Matt to see if he had been having sex with Natalie, before attempting to yank the sheets she's under over her crotch, trying to restrain her into forced BDSM of some kind. Matt glocks Pete in the jaw, angering the latter into launching a full-on fistfight while spreading himself out right across Natalie. A fellow oil rig guard drops the N-slur, redirecting Natalie's rising anger onto him, which Pete uses to his advantage, pulling her by the ankles and yanking her on the floor. Pete's buddy Curtis knocks her out and they all gang-rape her, before Pete personally kills Matt for daring to intervene. The FBI shows up for demonstration purposes, only to hear the commotion themselves and set their priorities. Pete repeatedly tries to blast agent Jane with a shotgun, causing tons of collateral damage to his "friends", which he all but ignores. While he gets a couple drops on Jane, she's too numb from the cold to notice any of them, aided by the fact that they go right through her. Pete doesn't bother to pull any of his mates outta there, running away like a coward before getting startled by a porcupine and Pistol Whipped by agent Jane. Protagonist Cory drags him off.
When Pete awakens, he finds his feet frostbitten, with Cory mentioning to him that they're on the highest peak in Wyoming while it's to cool to snow despite it being August. Pete cusses and sobs in confusion and fear, leading to Cory letting out all his pent up anger on him — while practically whispering. He rebukes Pete for being too scared to even let him talk like the former initially wanted, him taking things from everybody on and off the rez, and forces him to say "I raped her" and "we beat them to death", the latter of which he simply cuts off with "we did beat him..." After that, he gives Pete the same chance Natalie got: having to run barefoot in somewhere around -11 Fahrenheit while drowning from the blood in his lungs (again, not super realistic, but whatever) six miles to the highway. He scares him off with a gun, watching him making it 3 yards or so before succumbing to his Karmic Death like the animal he is.
Mitigating factors or Freudian Excuse?
He claims to Cory that they all only lasted so long before they involuntarily were forced to Go Mad from the Isolation. While I can just barely excuse this for his group's general stupidity, Pete knew what he was doing the entire time, didn't risk going back or protecting his friends for anything—which they themselves did for each other, if nothing else—and wouldn't admit to his crimes until Cory essentially spoonfed him the words himself, shrieking in confused anger, sobbing, cussing, and generally freaking out instead of even pretending that he could change his ways and go to jail instead, showing that he's more or less Believing Their Own Lies.
Heinous Standard?
It should be obvious that this isn't a lighthearted work in the first place, but there's at least some degree of humanity in the other characters; even his fellow oil rig guys held some sort of Honor Among Rapists and maybe went mad (which doesn't excuse the rape, but it's mitigating enough on its own). The fact that he's not even in the film until the end suggests that he's been doing much worse for a while, or at least that's definitely close what the narrative wants us to think.
Sentenced to CM?
I'm going with a yes, though I don't think it's impossible that there's a technicality for him not to count (like his short appearance or the fact that the film doesn't necessarily ascertain the idea that he's a Politically Incorrect Villain like the others, even if it's still likely that he is).
Edited by Coachpill on Sep 19th 2023 at 11:57:55 AM
Silver and gold, silver and gold
No to Pete. He has one rape, but everything else is done via his friends on their own initiative. Pete doesn't order or lead Matt being beaten to death, nor the death of the tribal police.
Can shapeshift (probably)
He did start it (Matt's murder) by being the first to fight him, though, which I factored in. He didn't kill the tribal police, either, but they all tried to.
ETA: He kicks off the gunfight as well. Clearly he didn't lead it but he's semi-directly responsible for all those lives lost once he ran for the hills.
Edited by Coachpill on Sep 19th 2023 at 12:12:48 PM
Silver and gold, silver and gold
He didn't intend to kill Matt. The other guys did that on their own initiative.
Pete's not at baseline
Lizzid people!
Goku Black
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_down_emote.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Pete
Unfortunately having seen this amazing film. He doesn't really. "Lead this gang". They do most of the other stuff on their own initiative which kinda kills the heinousness.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Abstain on the Craftsman. Not sure if there's enough personality.
for Pete. The rest of the crew (sans Matt) are just as bad as him.
A Girl, Just One of Many Kinds
Yes to Cratsman but no to Pete.
Still have plans on another (possibly contentious) candidate that was rejected a few years ago, considering the new material releases. Could possibly make him count, I’ll have to see,
Edited by MermaidEyes15 on Sep 19th 2023 at 3:31:26 PM
Keep Fighting. Keep Loving.
Unofficial co-Wiki Curator for Magnificent Bastard
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I don't know who's doing what, or who left, or whatever, but pending:
- The Bill: Peter Williams (Atlantis)
- Open Windows: Simon Chord (JoeBertInc)
- Lionel Phipps (Lighty)
- 976-EVIL: Satan (Lighty)
- Last Shift: John Michael Paymon (Lighty)
- Magic: The Gathering: Ashiok (Lore)
- Malone & Smitty (Ravok)
- Inheritance: Carson (Ravok)
- Kamen Rider Geats: Suel (Reddish)
- Parallel (umaprasis)
Edited by MGD107 on Sep 18th 2023 at 3:07:30 AM