During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Yes to another Biggie and Selina.
Yes to Kariya, Biggie and Catwoman.
I will say I am more familiar with the 90s era Marvel novels than modern novels and there be a couple of MBs in it, Dr. Doom from a trilogy of Spidey team up novels and Baron Zemo from the Avenger's/Thunderbolts novel. Both have well-executed plans, outwit more cruel villains (both of them outwitted Baron Strucker), have enough redeeming qualities not be vile, but are still ruthless enough to count.
Also, I have been putting off proposing Q from Star Trek for a while due to the episode count he is, but I do have more time on my hands at the moment.
Edited by Overlord on Mar 26th 2020 at 12:05:11 PM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Biggie and Selina.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Selina Kyle.
I can imagine Catowoman counts in both Pre and Post Crisis, New 52 and DC Rebirth to be frank. A bit of Depending on the Writer. It's just a matter of someone going through the effort of doing the EP.
Similarly, I bet Black Cat/Felicia Hardy is an easy enough keep in Marvel Comics as well. I already got a game version of her listed. Pretty proud of that one.
Caesar
'Yes' to both of the Biggies and Selina.
@Georgie: Samurai Champloo is excellent, not on the caliber of Cowboy Bebop for me personally, but the animation, music, and fight scenes are amazing, and the watchability value is absurdly high given the episodic nature.
Next up, I've just watched these films and I think there's two candidates from 'em, so let's talk that!
What's the work?
The awesome film Sicario and its less-so sequel Sicario: Day of the Soldado are a pair of drama/thrillers, starring Emily Blunt (who didn't return for the sequel), Josh Brolin, and Benicio Del Toro.
Focusing on the growing enterprise of the Mexican cartels and the government's response to it, the first film follows Kate Macer (Blunt) as she is recruited by a pair of shady government operatives to assist in their scheme at taking down a powerful cartel, through means that Kate finds herself continually at odds with due to her morals.
Both of said governments operatives will be getting a proposal, but first and foremost? The easier Keep of the two.
Who is Graver? What makes him a candidate?
Matt Graver is a go-with-the-flow, sandals & crocs-wearing CIA operative with morals as dubious as his fashion sense. Played to laid-back excellence by Josh Brolin himself, Graver is quickly established as a mysterious, powerful man in the government, as he arrives on scene at an FBI headquarters and immediately cows the local director to his requests to meet one Kate Macer, a skilled FBI agent.
Recruiting her to his "Delta squad," Graver educates Kate on his mission to track down Manuel Diaz, a member of one of the most notorious Mexican cartels, responsible for daily torture and murder. Having..."obtained" Manuel's brother, Guillermo, Graver and his partner Alejandro work with Kate and an escort to transport Guillermo from Juarez, Mexico, back into the United States...though the escort comes under attack by cartel thugs, Graver never bats an eye, allowing Alejandro and his squad to ruthlessly execute the entire gang sent after them right on the streets without a second thought.
Once on American soil, Graver stands by cracking one-liners while a vengeful Alejandro tortures Guillermo for past crimes, extracting the information that the cartels have been using a tunnel system near Sonora to traffick guns and weapons.
Though confronted by a horrified Kate at his disregard for protocol and endangering civilians at the border, Graver brushes her off, urging her to "sponge all this up", to just watch and learn as he uses his connections to round up over a hundred illegal immigrants caught by border patrol, keeping them all pacified by ordering $8,000 worth of pizza, before selecting the groups who were caught near the area of Sonora and using them to help locate the tunnel system.
Then setting a trap and freezing Manuel's bank accounts, Graver takes note of Kate's rash behavior getting her caught on security tape and, suspecting that she'll be targeted by Manuel's forces, follows her as she goes on a date with a cop named Ted. Ted, revealed to be on Manuel's payroll, tries to kill Kate, to which Graver and Alejandro catch him in the act and, after a good bout of torture, learn that himself and other cops in the area are corrupt.
As all of these chinks in his system cause enough problems, Manuel goes on the move, Graver tracking his every move. Graver then reveals to Kate the truth that Manuel is just another step in the ladder to their true target, Fausto Alarcon, and Graver has shaken the tree enough for Manuel to be called straight to Alarcon to answer for these failings.
Staging an attack on the Sonora tunnel systems to cause enough of a distraction, Graver lets Alejandro loose to track down Alarcon through brutal means. When an outraged and irrational Kate, finally fed up with being kept in the dark, demands the truth, Graver forces her to calm down, then reveals his master plan: once Alejandro uses Manuel to find and eliminate Alarcon, Alarcon's competition will be able to swoop in and assume control of a massive portion of the cartels, ending a huge portion of the gang wars spilling over and killing countless people.
Graver boasts that the only way to stop so much death and destruction is to manage it with an instituted order of the CIA's choosing, and all of this was a ploy to eliminate Alarcon and bring all the cartels under one banner to eliminate gang wars for the foreseeable future. And Kate's presence? Was nothing but to serve as a "liaison" to allow the CIA to operate on American soil legally.
Though Kate loudly and angrily says that she'll expose Graver's crimes, Graver calmly and threateningly tells her that would be a "major mistake," and once Alejandro finishes his crusade against Alarcon, Graver has him pay a visit to Kate and make sure she signs a paper saying that everything Graver and his operatives did was perfectly legal, allowing Graver to get away scot-free with everything.
Next up, we move into Sicario: Day of the Soldado....a few years after the last movie, Graver is continuing his career of being a CIA spook, introduced capturing a Somali pirate.
A recent series of terrorist bombings in Kansas City have America on edge, and Graver, having deduced that some of the terrorists were smuggled to America via ship, interrogates the pirate to tell give him information on the ship that smuggled the terrorists. When the pirate claims he knows nothing, Graver pulls up a live feed of the pirate's brother and, after having another offer to the pirate for info rejected, Graver casually calls in an airstrike and kills the pirate's brother on the live feed, forcing the man to watch. Then changing the feed to another of the man's brothers driving in a car, Graver remarks that the pirate has plenty of brothers he can knock off one by one until he gets the info he wants. The pirate cracks, and Graver has what he needs.
As the Mexican cartels are declared a terrorist organization, giving Graver more reign than ever, Graver calls in some old buddies to craft himself a small army and, recruiting Alejandro once more (rather hilariously breaking into his house then leaving a sticky note for Alejandro to find before he enters stating "I'm in your living room, please don't fucking shoot me."), Graver reveals his new scheme: to kickstart a new war between Mexican cartels to destabilize their threat to America.
Letting Alejandro stage an attack on Matomoros cartel, Graver then arranges for the kidnapping of Isabel Reyes, teenage daughter of the head of the powerful Reyes cartel. Graver has the girl stashed in a safe house, then organizes a "rescue", saving her and planning to frame the entire kidnapping on the Matomoros cartel, hoping for this to spark a war between the Reyes and Matomoros cartels.
Unfortunately, as Graver is transporting Isabel back to Mexico, their Mexican police escort turns on them, revealed to be corrupt and working with the cartels, and open fire. Graver and his team wipe out the cops and, when backup cops arrive, Graver calmly tells them to lower their weapons, wary if they are corrupt as well. The second said cops open fire on them, revealing they too are working for the cartels, Graver's team guns them all down in seconds.
Isabel fleeing into the desert during the chaos, Graver lets Alejandro track her down, while he returns to base (personally halting an entire squad of corrupt cops tailing him by shooting out the lead cop car's wheels) and awaits Alejandro'd return. However, much to his annoyance, Graver's superiors back down from the operation, fearing the public appearance of Graver's team massacring two dozen Mexican police, and Graver is ordered to clean house and eliminate every trace of what they did.
Realizing Isabel is a loose end at his superiors' urgings, Graver gets in contact with Alejandro, telling him to either kill Isabel or abandon her in the desert. Alejandro refuses, his morals preventing him from doing such a thing, and Graver simply wishes Alejandro luck, knowing that now, he's going to have to personally hunt down and bring in Alejandro and Isabel.
Tracking the duo, Graver eventually finds them...and comes upon Alejandro's body, shot in the head and left in the desert by a group of cartel thugs. Flying into a Tranquil Fury at the seeming death of his only real friend in the world, Graver quickly tracks down the thugs—who also have Isabel—and, when his men ask for rules of engagement? Graver gives an apt "Fuck it all", proceeding to fucking slaughter the thugs, not just relying on his men as he strolls up to the gang and kills the ones going for their guns.
When one takes Isabel hostage.and begins screaming demands with a gun to her head, Graver doesn't even blink as he fires a very well placed round to blow the guy's brains out. Graver finishes his rampage as he approaches a group of the thugs, all unarmed, and viciously guns them all down without mercy.
Then grabbing up Isabel, Graver brings her aboard his helicopter, and as his men try to remind him that he was ordered to eliminate her, Graver firmly says that the superiors can fuck off, as he is taking Isabel to witness protection, seemingly as both a final honor to Alejandro and as a major middle finger to his superiors for indirectly getting Alejandro killed.
Is Graver magnificent in how he operates?
Very much so. Graver's got the attitude of a chill, laid-back, friendly slacker, but on the other side of that coin is a ruthlessly efficient, calculating government agent who manipulates the FBI into enabling his schemes, and systematically arranges a takeover of the cartels over one banner in the first film....and when that soon enough diminishes in usefulness, he goes the opposite direction and almost succeeds in kick-starting a war between the two most powerful cartels to destabilize the entire country.
Graver is smart, manipulative, chummy with everyone who doesn't cross him, and though he can be pretty blunt and matter-of-fact, this adds to his entertainment factor and unique character for a CIA "spook." He does have superiors and he does ultimately answer to them, but Graver has free autonomy 95% of the time, and can and does mouth off to said superiors if he believes his plans will be more fruitful.
Only time Graver's magnificence slips? When he thinks Alejandro has been murdered, drops all pretense of his friendly, Affably Evil persona, and goes on a Tranquil Fury massacre of the cartel gang responsible. Even this, though, only backs up Graver's impressiveness, as he kills a guy who tries to take Isabel hostage with an extremely well-placed shot, and rescues Isabel from potential death or worse to honor his fallen comrade and screw over his superiors.
Is Graver a bastard?
Definitely, Graver is for all intents and purposes the villain of the first film, and a Villain Protagonist of the second. Graver will stoop to damn near any lengths necessary to accomplish his goals, dealing in physical torture, killing a pirate's criminal family members until he gives up info, kick-starting wars, ordering the death of a teenage girl at the pressure of superiors, and even personally gunning down a group of unnarmed cartel thugs in a cold rage for their hand in Alejandro's seeming execution.
Nonetheless, Graver fully believes that he's doing what's best for his country, cares for Alejandro, and saves Isabel at the end despite direct orders from his government superiors.
Final Verdict?
I'd say Graver absolutely Keeps.
Edited by Ravok on Mar 26th 2020 at 12:32:35 PM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
The Draftsman of Doom
Yeah, there’s number one.
Goku Black
Graver
Anyway, got multiple potential candidates from JoJo coming. Specifically, Part 5.
What’s the work?
Vento Aureo is the fifth part of the manga JoJo's Bizarre Adventure. It follows one of the bastard sons of Dio, Giorno Giovanna, in his goal to take over mafia organization, Passione, and change it for the better. Soon after Giorno joins a team and Bucciarati (leader of said team) gets promoted, the team gets an important mission. To safely escort the Boss’ daughter, Trish, to him as the rogue assassination team of Passione is trying to capture the Boss’ daughter for leverage against the Boss, Diavolo. And two of its members I intend to propose, starting with the leader.
Who is he? What does he do?
Risotto Nero is the leader of the hitman team. Joining the mafia after killing a drunk driver who killed his cousin, Risotto, along with the other members of the Hitman Team, were annoyed by how poorly they were treated by The Boss. Finding out about the deaths and mutilation of two of their members who tried to find out The Boss’ identity didn’t exactly make things better. This pushes Risotto and the rest of the team to go renegade against The Boss, and when they find out how Diavolo had a child with a woman named Donatella, pushes them to kidnap Trish.
A few days before Trish is given to Bucciarati, Risotto and his group find a photo of Donatella that was taken in Sardinia. Risotto correctly surmises that it’s where Trish will return to at some point. He decides to hide out there to kidnap Trish if the heroes make it there, but not before he helps his crew track down the heroes’ route to the boss. After Pericolo, a member of Passione whose loyal to Diavolo, leaves a ‘recording’ (one of the stands of the heroes can replays of past events) a photo to the heroes of their next location (a statue with a disc to pick up) Pericolo burns the photo and kills himself so that Risotto and the hitman team can’t interrogate it out of him. However, Risotto breaks into the home of a Passione technician, and tortures him into digitally reconstructing the photo that Pericolo burned, allowing Risotto’s sole surviving subordinate, Ghiaccio, to track the disc down along with nearly killing Giorno and Mista for good measure (luckily, a combination of Mista’s tactics and Giorno’s recently gained healing abilities is enough for them to barely defeat and kill Ghiaccio)
Later hiding out in Sardinia when he finds out about the deaths of his comrades, Risotto comes across Doppio, the split personality of the Boss. At first, Risotto thinks Doppio is simply a scared boy, but then notices Doppio reacts to the noises of Narancia’s Aerosmith. Quickly realizing Doppio is a Stand User, Risotto uses his stand of manipulating iron to torture Doppio for information. During Risotto’s fight with Doppio, Risotto shows a variety of tactics, such as using iron to reflect light off himself and become invisible, and tricking Doppio (but not Diavolo...we’ll get to that) into attacking a severed foot of Risotto’s that he left behind to leave Doppio open to have his head sliced from the inside with a razor Risotto created.
Risotto is about to kill Doppio but is suddenly shot by Narancia’s Aerosmith. Diavolo takes over and explains that he wanted Doppio to throw knives in the wrong direction as that was where Bucciarati’s group was. Narancia would think they were being attacked, and due to the low amount of Iron, Aerosmith’s breath detection would only pick up Risotto’s breath. The Boss declares his victory, and at this point, Risotto realizes that Doppio isn’t simply a minion of Diavolo, but is Diavolo himself. but in one last gambit by Risotto, he uses his stand to stick to and manipulate Narancia’s Aerosmith. He then tricks Diavolo into leaning closer to him before grabbing him in place, intending to have Aerosmith shoot both him and The Boss to death. Unfortunately, Diavolo uses the newly revealed ability of King Crimson to erase himself from time for half a second and let the bullets phase through him and only kill Risotto. Diavolo praises Risotto, and notes how despite winning, he’s in a life threatening condition with all the iron stolen from his body, just as Risotto wanted.
How do his actions show that he’s a Magnificent Bastard?
Risotto proves himself to be a flexible tactician both in and out of combat. From finding out where the heroes will go even after he loses track of them on two different occasions, to quickly turning the tables on Doppio and Diavolo even when they get the upper hand during their fight (first when Doppio got Risotto’s leg severed, then when Diavolo got Aerosmith to shoot him) Risotto is great at adapting while almost always maintaining a calm and methodical yet cruel demeanor.
Any mitigating factors?
While Diavolo does trick him, it’s a genuinely understandable trap to fall into as opposed to him Risotto holding a Villain Ball (the severed foot he left behind happening to be in the direction where Bucciarati’s gang was) and he bounces back from it by nearly taking out both him and Diavolo out in a move that even Diavolo praises. Also, while his actions are primarily against Diavolo, he still sends his subordinates to kill the heroes and kidnap a teenage girl, so I’d say he’s enough of a bastard.
Also, while he does have a penchant for torture if his treatment of Doppio or the Passione technician have anything to say about, he hardly displays any actual sadism beyond a smile or two when fighting Doppio. Compared to people like Ciocolatta, DIO, or hell, other JoJo MBs like Kars or Kira, he’s nowhere near that level of sadistic.
Final Thoughts?
...Why couldn't Risotto be the Big Bad instead of Diavolo? If it's about his powers not involving time manipulation, he could've gotten a time manipulation power from the arrow like Kira or something.
Caesar
Yeah, Risotto counts I'd say, Diavolo outplays him at the very end, but it's only with help of outside sources, and Risotto had him on the ropes all the way until then. Especially notable given Diavolo is damn near impossible to beat unless you're name is Giorno.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Goku Black
Risotto
So how many does this make for Jojo ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
If Risotto goes up, that'll bring it up to 6. Though I have two other candidates from Vento Aureo coming up.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Sure to all the above candidates on that page.
@Ravok Then I'll check it out later. That being said, when Nujabes contributes heavily to the anime's soundtrack, the results had to be half-amazing at worst.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Mar 26th 2020 at 9:19:17 AM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Yes there Awesome and I’ll agree with Ravok that Champloo is fantastic.
Caesar
Actually, Risotto will bring the count to 7.
- Part 2: Kars and Esidisi
- Part 3: N'Doul
- Part 4: Kira
- Part 5: Risotto (and whoever comes next)
- Part 6: Pucci
- Part 7: Ringo
Completely forgot about Ringo.
Do you want a page when Awesome does this one or can I leave it until the rest are done?
Caesar
I'd say it can wait until Awesome does the rest, unlike G.I. Joe where I didn't know how many more candidates would be coming when we made it, JoJo is almost definitely drained dry after Awesome's candidates, so there's no rush to get a page up until he's done IMO
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That got me thinking: Of the works that have both CM and MB pages, I THINK the only crossovers are Dark Bakura/Yami Bakura; Darkrai; and the 2 Commanders. I'm especially surprised Star Wars doesn't have any crossovers, given how big a franchise it is.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Hell yes to Risotto, the man who should have been Big Bad.
The thing you run into there, ACW, is big franchises tend to like having big villains and hence flex with their rap sheets: for example Gihren is probably the closest a Gundam CM comes to being an MB but not only does his final scene prove him a Smug Snake but he's got a bodycount approaching half the human race because he wants power; Scirocco is probably the closest one of their MBs comes to CM but he's such a practitioner of Pragmatic Villainy that even ignoring the fact he's got possible redeeming qualities that can't be written off, he's not even interested in meeting the heinous standard that the resident sadists: Yazan and Bask, set.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'm curious, who's the closest for Star Wars for the other. Is Palpatine the closest to an MB despite all the reasons he doesn't count?
Paptimus: Does he know what Om does?
P.S. I don't know if for the franchise pages you wanna add the !All spoilers are unmarked. You Have Been Warned!
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
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Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that the Empire is responsible for the genocide of the Jedi Order, the destruction of Alderaan, and many other war crimes akin to the Nazis, Darth Sidious would have been the quintessential Magnificent Bastard of the Star Wars, even bigger than Thrawn considering the scope. It's just that he's too monstrous to count and TROS put the final nail in the coffin by not only adding more crimes to his list, but also giving him Villain Decay and a full blown Smug Snake plan (which is one of the reasons I did not like TROS in the end).
The same can be said about Makuta Teridax. He, like Sheev, would have been a Magnificent Bastard if it weren't for the fact that his crimes are so high and horrible that it somewhat overshadows his magnificent grand plan with back up plans and back up plans. A pity too since Teridax has some of the best lines that fit with the persona of Magnificent Bastard.
- "Little Toa, you have not yet begun to see even the barest outlines of my plans. I have schemes within schemes that would boggle your feeble mind. You may counter one, but there are a thousand more of which you know nothing. Even my ... setbacks ... are planned for, and so I shall win in the end."
Edited by Shadao on Mar 26th 2020 at 4:04:12 AM
The wifi here sucks
Now as promised. Selina Kyle from the ya book Catwoman: Soulstealer
Whats the work?
Catwoman: Soulstealer is a novel by Sarah J. Maas and part of a group of Ya novels which reinvision the origins of various DC heroes called DC Icons.
After years abroad, Selina Kyle returns to Gotham, pretending to be the rich heiress Holly Vanderhess. She's young, she's clever, she's dangerous.
Finding friends in Poison Ivy and Harley Quinn, she plans to take on the whole city!
Meanwhile, Luke Fox, son of Lucius Fox, wants to prove to Bruce Wayne that he can handle being the only vigilante in the city. Soon, he clashes with the mysterious Catwoman and her friends.
Who is Selina Kyle/Catwoman?
A true case of From Nobody to Nightmare. Selina is introduced to us as a member of the gang known as the leopards and an illegal fighter in Carmine Falcone's sewer fight clubs where she's managed to remain undefeated in 27 matches. Selina uses the money she earns as a way to pay for her ill sister Maggie's hospital bills, with her abusive mother having left them. Anyway the police find out and arrest her with her sister taken away. While in prison, she meets Talia al ghul who offers to let her join the league of assassin and provide her sister with a good adoptive home if she could prove herself by getting out of her cuffs which she does using a paperclip from the photos that Talia was showing her.
Anyway for two years, Selina excels under brutal training from the league and Nyssa Al Ghul, outsmarting her competition, killing her targets, eventually rising to the top as an al ghul (top assassin). Now in one of her assignments, she was sent to murder an innocent scientist dude who Nyssa had enslaved, he begged her to make sure his research into creating a lazarus pit formula which could be used over and over again rather then the currents which just are only able to be used once, he didn't want her to get her hands on it as she knew she'd sell it to some of the worst. Anyway after killing him and knowing this could be used to save her sister, Selina asks to use it save Maggie before getting shot down by Nyssa who laughed it off to her face. So Selina has all knowledge of it on Talia and Nyssa's computers destroyed before heading off with what she stole to Gotham city.
Gotham has 2 things: Poison Ivy (a brilliant biochemist and ecoterrorist who could help her recreate it) and Ivy's best friend/occasional lover Harley Quinn who will give her a way to Allie with joker where in return for his army for her next plan, she'll give him the immortality serum (she's not going too but yeah).
So beginning a crime wave by expertly targeting several of the rich socialites, Selina has the bat signal destroyed so that they wont be able to summon any batheroes to help immediately. Anyway Selina plans to recruit Ivy well "running" into her in one of these heists. Their surprised by Luke Fox aka Batwing (Who is in charge of protecting the city since Gordon now has to call him directly and Bruce is busy with stuff out of city) who selina defeats and uploads a video of his defeat and her escape to the internet. Panicking as this will now spur the city's underworld into rebelling, he becomes determined to beat her.
Anyway convincing Ivy to get Harley on their side by saying that she'll help her free joker if she helps, the two begin an elaborate crime spree to put themselves at the top of the criminal underworld, at their height with help from relased joker goons, Selina defeats and claws Carmine Falcone taking over as head. All while sending videos and pictures of their exploits to raise their attention. Sometimes a breakout of zoo animals, sometimes a robbery of socialites, making sure to keep it random but big in order to keep the cops and batwing busy.
Anyway in her normal disguise as Holly, she begins a relationship with luke and two begin to bond. Now Luke lays the next trap at his parents house, well their Selina is ambushed by one of the league of assasins Tigris who has been sent to get rid of her, the two fight and Selina breaks her spine with batwing convincing her to not kill her. Anyway she does so but tigris goes for the suicide pill, Luke makes a deal with her to let her go now if they take the body out of his parent's house since that will attract unwanted attention from the league to them, before the leave her, Selina gives her the league's last rites.
Anyway Selina helps convince Ivy to work on this before trying to fulfill her plan for Harley. So she lets herself get captured, Gotham sends its most uh famous and dangerous villains to Arkham which is where shes heading thanks to all the coverage and where joker is. Anyway Nyssa comes into her cell to try and kill her, only for her to spring her ace. Releasing joker and his gang who shes offered the immortality syndrome too in return for helping her. Joker and crew defeat Nyssa and gang and selina heads off to save her sister whose in the hospital, guarded by her old gang the leopards.
Meanwhile Luke has to deal with joker whose unleashed chaos on the city but got help with selina, while he was going to her location she gave a tip of where he was and they apprehend him. Harley in a rage comes to the hospital and tries to kill selina but with selina attempting to get through to her that she can be better without him, she doesn't listen to her and tries to kill her but is stopped by Ivy who poisons her and leaves her to be taken in by the cops.
Anyway luke, selina and ivy now race to the lazarus pit in order to bring her sister Maggie their with Selina bleeding to death in the meantime, their is only one shot since ivy's formula is still experimental so Selina sacrifices herself for her sister as the other two cover he back by battling assassins like onyx and cheshire who are guarding it. After shes dead, Maggie demands they try to bring her back and they use the formula to revive her.
Anyway Luke makes a deal with her that as the new gotham lady of crime since shes more or less in charge if she helps him take on the underworld, he'll let her go. Turns out all the stuff she stole was sold to either pay for her sister's medical bills or given to children's hospitals. Anyway the book ends with Ivy and Selina heading off for a new heist job.
Magnificent ?
Selina is a skilled fighter and thief. She pulls off expert Robberies and has luke and the cops more or less guessing the entire time, all in order to secure a spot in arkham on purpose. She also knows all off the league's activities and techniques and has prepared in advance to counter them. Selina is also a great fighter using intelligent tricks to defeat her enemies and plays Luke, Ivy and Harley into getting what she wants. Uses joker as a way to get a solid army against the league before backstabbing him, she is on top of things the entire book.
She's a very calm and seductive character. Having everyone fooled into thinking shes a Dumb Blonde in her civilian disguise well being an intelligent, sauve villain in truth.
Bastard ? Too much?
Selina is a skilled thief whose more ruthless then normal , being willing to kill and even killing an innocent scientist under Nyssa's orders as well as breaking Tigris spine in order to win and spring joker from prison despite the chaos. Yet none of this doesnt serve a purpose, this is all for her sister who she adores. She's honors Tigris in death despite them being rivals, she hands joker in and she does care about harley, Ivy and luke even if she started playing them.
And honestly compared to more creepy and gross stuff that other dc icon villains do , shes fairly tame in comparison. Ruthless but not the worst.
Conclusion?
Keeper
Edited by miraculous on Mar 26th 2020 at 12:01:53 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."