During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
Goku Black
Is their a general game series YMMV we could move it their to avoid that?
Edited by miraculous on Jul 18th 2022 at 8:47:11 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Yes to Nobunaga, Ranmaru and Ryoka!
Do what you think is necessary Zuxtron, I was tired and that one had a lot of errors to edit in it. No clue about the game, its spoilers or anything of the like. If they're in multiple games they should go on the franchise page. I just put them on the game's that was linked.
Yes to Ryuga and can we get a hearty "Fuck Yuda" in the chat?
also writeup
- Young Justice (2010): Shade is an Affably Evil member of the League of Shadows. After being brainwashed and forced to work for Stagg Industries, Shade proves himself an efficient and stylish criminal who never hesitates to save his teammates, creatively using his shadow manipulation to fight stronger opponents and make daring getaways. Upon being released from mind control by Cheshire, Shade wastes no time in assassinating Simon Stagg himself in the name of vengeance before continuing his exploits with the League of Shadows. When Cheshire and her allies are cornered by Lady Shiva, Shade dutifully pays back his debt to her by teleporting them to a beach and resigning from the League, saving Cheshire and ruining Lady Shiva's plan in the process.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jul 18th 2022 at 9:31:50 AM
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Ryuga
- The Sniper 2: Gabriel “Gabe” Armitage is a former CIA agent turned assassin who seeks revenge on those who ruined his life. Kidnapping C.A. during a gunfight and holding her hostage, Gabe creates a cure for the Tacklmacain virus using her special blood. Looking to stop the mafia’s plan to launch Tacklmacain across America with a warhead to sell fake vaccines, Gabe’s able to deduce that his former boss Robert Bernaldi and Senator Belini are behind everything, assisting Harry Spencer in taking them both out and dismantling the warhead. Using his final moments to locate his ex-girlfriend, traitorous CIA agent Abby, Gabe’s able to shrug off her bullets and kill her, concluding his revenge.
Lies and Violence!
Oda, Ranmaru, Ryuga.
The Spectacular Spider-Man. You all probably know the deal.
Who is Mysterio?
A master of special effects, Mysterio is introduced as a lackey to the Chameleon, alongside the Tinkerer. With their help, Chameleon is able to impersonate Spider-Man for a crime spree across New York—while Tinkerer provides the tech to replicate his powers, Mysterio provides his "spider-sense" (acting as a civilian and warning him of dangers from behind through an earpiece).
On a job to rob a party hosted by the mayor, Mysterio poses as a waiter and drugs the guards, then facilitates the Chameleon's dramatic entrance. He manages to delay Spider-Man once he finally shows up with some smoke bombs, and while captured by the Black Cat puts up a valiant effort to fight back.
Returning in Season 2 as a full-fledged supervillain, Mysterio, pretending to be a sorcerer with a hatred for technology, goes on another crime spree stealing tech for Doctor Octopus' master plan, using holograms projected on mist to disguise his drones as "spells." Dude has all kinds of neat tricks up his sleeves, from colorless sleep gas to goddamn disappearing swords, and when tracked back to his lair pulls out all the stops with a confusing combination of holograms (dragons) and very real threats (floating boxing gloves, giant killer teddy bears). Spidey has to use his spider-sense to stay ahead of it all, and after a brawl with an army of robot duplicates finally catches the "Master of the Arcane Arts"...
Only not. The real Mysterio, having successfully escaped with all of the stolen tech, left a lifelike robot duplicate in his place while he goes to join the new Sinister Six alongside Kraven as replacements for Shocker and Octavius. The two get the drop on Spidey after he beats the other four, using illusions of Shocker and Octavius to lure him into complacency, and Mysterio comes the closest to killing him with an explosive duplicate. Kraven fucks that up, but Mysterio once again escapes in the confusion, turning himself invisible and leaving another lifelike duplicate in his place.
Said duplicate is also apparently programmed with a complete supervillain mode, as when Spidey is locked in jail with all the villains he's put away, Shocker activates the bot to shoot lasers and release more of his robot demon bats, making an already dangerous situation even more tedious to survive through.
The bot is destroyed, but Mysterio never faces justice, leaving him free to do whatever he wants.
Any mitigating factors?
Dude's a suave, hammy bastard who gets away scot-free every time after his debut, with a litany of clever tricks to make him always a memorable standout. Making his robot duplicates resemble him so no one else gets the credit for his "performance" is a bit of a stupid move, but he's already a wanted criminal anyway and, again, he gets away every time, so I don't think it's too big a deal.
Goku Black
Mysterio (fun fact he's played by Xander Berkeley. Better known as Red John)
@Riley: So anyone else worth a look from the show? I know Deathstroke for example has his pedo stuff with Terra removed and is one of the more active bad guys. Ras is probably too lax to keep for now.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Deathstroke is maybe worth a look, issue is they manage to talk down Terra which scuttles his whole plan. Ra's is indeed a bit too passive and with his retirement and Hazy-Feel Turn he's probably never keeping (He's damn sharp though— man spotted Artemis through a glamor and wasted no time exposing her). Vandal Savage already keeps handily and will likely stay that way, Luthor is basically keeping by an inch ever since they derailed him by turning him into a Trump parody went places with the character. I can't be sure for the rest— I'd argue Dru-Zod might keep now (Nasty cult leader but A Father to His Men and very charismatic) but they left him imprisoned in the hands of the Light, so I can't really be sure until they give it another season.
There's probably others to find somewhere in there— hell, I have my eye on Cassandra Savage and if not for her still being on the board might have effortposted her... I think there's a case for a fun one in the form of Black Spider, but I'm not sure he does enough.
Edited by Riley1sCool on Jul 18th 2022 at 10:43:39 AM
Concerning Luard. I put him in Atelier Sophie because this is the game where he act the most as a Magnificent Bastard and i didn't know if it was worth it mentioning him in the 3 games.
After like @miraculous suggested, there is a link to the game serie in general : Atelier
Edited by Hayuki107 on Jul 18th 2022 at 8:27:08 PM
I have 501 children in my basement.
Just got a message from a good friend of mine on Discord about a candidate that I proposed who still doesn't have a writeup yet, soon here is it.
Bendy and the Ink Machine fan animation Welcome Home: The complete antithesis of his barbaric and feral canon counterpart, Bendy the Ink Demon uses playful tricks to deter Henry's escape, such as popping up behind him, using a trap door to get him tangled in rope, and creating a gaggle of clones to distract Henry while he's trying to leave the workshop, all while singing a snazzy tune and showing off his smooth dance moves. Though clearly a devious little devil, there is an air of sympathy in his nature, as his ultimate goal is to get back on Henry for abandoning him and his fellow toons.
Edited by RhinoBeloved on Jul 18th 2022 at 11:36:48 AM
"Everything looks smarter as a quote."
Based on the EP, to Mysterio. Too bad we never got to see Bruce Campbell fully in the role beyond the blurbs in the Raimi Trilogy (my friend and I were rewatching the first two Saturday night), but maybe that day will come with the interest in Spider-Man 4 spiking. Also, Xander Berkeley will not only go to the Played Both page now, but he was also Agent Gibbs (CM) and George Mason (not a CM and died in a Heroic Sacrifice).
Also, looking at the entry for the film version of Jackie again, this at the end of a sentence "and as he romances and marries Linnet" sounds really awkward.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jul 18th 2022 at 11:36:20 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That does make sense, I do think he is primarily a Sophie character so it's the place where he best fits.
Also, now that I think about it, the way the example is written is vague enough to not actually give away the big Lydie & Suelle twist; with the way it's currently worded, someone who hasn't played that game could easily interpret it as Luard just being a minor NPC that shows up at one point to give you a Plot Coupon or something, rather than him being the secret identity of one of the party members.
Edited by Zuxtron on Jul 18th 2022 at 2:38:34 PM
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Mysterio.
Feels good, don't it?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Raptor Red, Oda, Ranmaru, Ryuga, and Mysterio.
I have a question. On Star Wars wouldn't it make more sense to have Boba Fett in a sort of multiple works section rather simply The Book of Boba Fett? I mean both his write up include actions that happen before that series and I have little doubt that he will appear again.
Edited by Bullman on Jul 18th 2022 at 1:53:20 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Sherlock S2 E2 "The Hounds of Baskerville"
- Complete Monster: Bob Frankland. Conducted human experiments that drove the test subjects insane with the CIA, and after transferring back to England continues to work on it in secret. When Henry's father, a close friend of his, finds out he kills him without remorse and leaves his nine year old son orphaned and traumatized for the rest of his life, and continues to drug him with the compound to drive Henry insane to the point of almost committing suicide just so his crimes could never be discovered.
Unapproved entry. I haven't seen that episode in age so I don't know if he keeps.
EDIT: OO Ps ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by Silverblade2 on Jul 18th 2022 at 9:03:15 PM
Wrong thread but cutting.
to Mysterio
Woagh
@Rhino: Please ad the write up here and you should be good.
to Mysterio.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Mysterio
Mysterio
I was wondering if YJ Darkseid could have a chance, especially since he showed he wasn't as bad as Granny Goodness.
Yes to Mysterio.
Darkseid's arc is still ongoing. He hasn't done much yet and I think it's premature to try and get a read on him for either of these. Plus, while he doesn't personally get up to the shit Granny Goodness and Desaad do he's facilitating all of it.
Yes to Mysterio, edit what needs to be edited then future and I'll drop a fuck Yuda if there's the chance!
Yes to Mysterio
Work
The Scooby-Doo Show is one of the earlier Scooby-Doo series and is mostly like the original but with a little more effort at having multiple suspects and spookier monster costumes. Here’s the first of two characters I have in mind for the show.
Character
Julie Johnson is the alias of the culprit from “The Beast is Awake at a Bottomless Lake.” She and two partner last steal millions in gold from the Canadian government. To smuggle it over the border l, three go to the fishing town of Bottomless Lake and use plastic explosives to blow a whole through the earth between the lake and the river going across the border. Using scuba tanks and pontoons. Julie sends the gold through the tunnel one load at a time. She puts a lake monster costume over her scuba suit to avoid being spotted and use an old local legend to scare away the locals so they won’t investigate the lake shrinking or the explosions. As shown by an abandoned newspaper, hauntings start the same day the robbery is reported, if not earlier, implying a lot of advanced planning.
She scares away almost everyone in town but two people, one of whom is preparing to leave, by the beginning of the episode when the game shows up due to more water in the river flooding they are road and diverging them away from their original intention. Julie runs into them at the Johnson family market and makes up a quick lie that she is the daughter of the market owner and came back for her cat when she sees the cat they got left behind being there near the gang. The cat doesn’t know her and runs off when she approaches, but she covers this by claiming they must’ve been scared of their dog. Velma is suspicious but the others seem fooled. Julie warns them to avoid the lake.
She chases the gang a few times and once gets locked in a cabin but then escapes through a tunnel her gang dug to take the explosives into the lake. She chases them a few more times, especially when they find the tunnel. Shaggy and Scooby accidentally propel themselves, Julie, and a pontoon into the underwater tunnel with the suction on. She knocks them off the pontoon but outside the tunnel crashes into the other crooks, who call her the boss, and all three are tangled in the net used to stop the pontoons.
She is unmasked and stands there calmly and silently throughout the summation after a Mountie arrives.
Magnificent
Her plan is a pretty ambitious and well planned out one which comes close to success and she doesn’t break down or glare and sulk after being caught.
Bitch? Too much?
She steals a lot of gold and chases the gang. While being sucked through the tunnel she knocks Shaggy and Scooby off the pontoon she’s clinging to which is more dangerous but not terribly so since they come out ok, and might have just been to try and separate them from herself so she could escape.
Two points in her favor are that she never gets fooled by them doing a Paper-Thin Disguise (which happens a lot in this show to other people who might count otherwise, like the culprit in “The Creepy Case of Old Iron Face”) and she never seriously tries to hurt the gang except maybe after they’ve found the tunnel and are in serious danger of ruining her plan (the guy from “Don’t Go Near the Fortress of Fear” —who has a similarly crafty scheme to smuggle loot over a border—makes efforts to throw Shaggy and Scooby to their deaths well before they’re a serious threat to him and laughs about it).
Edited by Melinda on Jul 18th 2022 at 4:25:41 AM
Put the entry with the updated sentence in the drafts. I'll go fix it in each YMMV too.
Behind on EPs, but I'll say Mysterio and ![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Julie. If the characters aren't fooled than that's a point against.
I added a spoiler tag to Luard's example on YMMV.Atelier Sophie The Alchemist Of The Mysterious Book since he is a Walking Spoiler. I also noticed that the example has typos in it, at one point spelling Plachta's name as Platchta and at another point saying "500 years later, after Meklet and Atomina have befriend Sophie" when it should be "befriended".
Another thing I'm not sure what to do about is the mention that Luard becomes an ally to Lydie and Suelle, which is also a HUGE spoiler for a later game in the series. It feels strange to have that right there on the page for the first installment of that subseries.
Edited by Zuxtron on Jul 18th 2022 at 11:43:20 AM