During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
She's definitely not the kind of person in this movie right now who'd murder innocent puppies for a coat…and maybe she won't ever do that actually in this universe.
In The Stinger, she gifts Roger with Pongo and Anita with Purdita. Wait what!?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2021 at 9:31:59 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
43: Future is doing the writeup. I gave him my input.
Feels good, don't it?
Ultimate Moral Compass
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Cruella de Vil, Cruella de Vil. If she doesn’t scare you, no evil thing will.
I got ![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
ed a little while ago, so I moved my post to here.
Sky potholed and cleaned it up a bit for me after I wrote it and sent it to Sky:
- Cruella: Cruella de Vil is reimagined as a capable con artist and thief with excellent fashion sense. Born to the cold-hearted Baroness von Hellman—who wanted her dead—she was at first raised as Estella, the daughter of maid Catherine Miller, whose murder she witnessed as a child. Growing up orphaned, Estella had ended up pulling schemes with the Badun brothers Horace and Jasper—creating the costumes for each job as they go. Wanting to get into the fashion world, Estella gets hired and works closely under the Baroness—and also tries to steal back her family heirloom from the Baroness. Becoming Cruella, she also undermines the Baroness's own business while increasing her own and when Cruella learns of her true heritage, she then—as Estella—fakes her own murder at the Baroness's hands in order to set her up and make it so Cruella gets everything that was always meant to be hers.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2021 at 9:34:56 AM
Professor Gigachad
So, again... I wanted the Lupin stuff to finish the page. For the second time now, chill on the writeups. future I've told you before too I don't need things being submitted half an hour after they were effort posted. Put it in the drafts but I'm leaving this till next week.
@43 I saw you had her in Pending though. That made me think you were ready to get her. Sorry for going too fast anyway though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 10th 2021 at 9:49:31 AM
RIP Toriyama
Cruella sounds like a 'Yes', great work!
Another movie night, another Keeper, this time for this thread!
What's the work?
Hudson Hawk is a criminally underrated 90s action-comedy with a stacked cast including Bruce Willis, Andie MacDowell, Richard E. Grant and Sandra Bernhard, among others! The film follows the titular Hudson Hawk, a reformed cat burglar forced into helping a pair of wannabe-James Bond villains in their scheme to steal a variety of artifacts created by Leonardo Da Vinci that, when combined, become a machine that turns lead into gold. As Hawk works with his partner Tommy and Love Interest Vatican secret agent Anna, he tries to balance out doing the evil-doers' bidding while trying to take them down.
Who is George Kaplan? What makes him a candidate?
Played by James Coburn having the absolute time of his life, George Kaplan is an affable, upbeat CIA agent who serves as the main heavy lifter for the villainous Mayflower couple. Kaplan uses his Quirky Miniboss Squad the Candy Bar Brigade (Snickers, Kit Kat, Butterfinger and Almond Joy) to serve as his right-hand gang, carrying out his evil misdeeds.
Before the events of the movie, Kaplan manipulated master thief Hudson Hawk into pulling off a robbery destined to fail so Kaplan could use it as a distraction while he accomplished a personal sidegoal, leaving Hawk to be imprisoned. Later allying with the Mayflowers who have gotten Hawk out of prison and blackmailed him into pulling off a robbery, Kaplan secretly places cameras all over the museum Hawk robs, further giving the Mayflowers blackmail to use against him.
Cheerfully capturing Hawk for the Mayflowers to meet personally, Kaplan dispatches the Candy Bars to follow Hawk through Italy and get him anything he needs as he prepares to steal another item for the Mayflowers, Kaplan reminiscing nostalgically over Rome being the first place he killed someone barehanded. "Communist politician. God, I miss Communism. The Red threat. People were scared, the agency had respect, and I got laid every night!"
Continuing to serve as the Mayflowers go-getter, offering them unheeded advice several times that would have turned out in their favor to follow, Kaplan later outwits an attempt by Hawk to stage his own death alongside Tommy. He deduces the trickery and pulls off the latest robbery for the Mayflowers himself with the Candy Bars, noting that if Hawk hadn't tried to duck out, "Those Louvre guards might still be alive", as the Candy Bars went the route of "guns blazing" VS Hawk's stealthy approach.
Leaving Hawk and Tommy to die while kidnapping Anna for her knowledge about Da Vinci, Kaplan later gets into a personal duel with Hawk when the thief survived the previous threat and stages an assault with Tommy on the Mayflower castle...and, hilariously, despite his age? Kicks Hawk's ass with a damn nice set of martial arts skills, breaking a wooden block with spin kicks and just generally being awesome.
Kaplan meets his hilarious end when, by total accident, Hawk bends over during the fight and a sailing dropkick by Kaplan results in the CIA agent flying off the side of the castle, landing on a car moments away from careening off a cliff and exploding, and then belting out his Famous Last Words:
Is Kaplan magnificent?
Oh definitely, Kaplan's a terrific bad guy who's genuinely Affably Evil and cheerful about his villainy, plays as the straight man to the Mayflowers' zany psychosis, and does most of their heavy lifting for them with his own scheming and coolness...even when the Mayflowers plan to betray Kaplan? He catches on once it happens, then never actually gets negatively affected by it as he begins his duel with Hawk. Even his last words are too damn funny to be considered an actual breakdown ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Is Kaplan a bastard?
Yep, he's assisting the Mayflowers in forcing Hawk to their dirty work in a scheme to upheave the modern economy to get rich with infinite amounts of gold, and he personally tries to kill Hawk and his bud Tommy.
Final Verdict?
Rock solid Keeper! I wish I could also propose Alfred, the Mayflowers' Battle Butler full of snark, but he unfortunately has very little cunning to him except carrying out his bosses' orders with deadly competence, leaving him mostly an underdeveloped badass who comes...so close.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Looks hilarious and I'm definitely checking that out. Happy yes from me, great work!
@ user, I think the canon is loose enough from the animated 60s film and a live action reimagining of a villain from a movie this year.
Also, hmmmm... well is he a Hyper-Competent Sidekick? Could the case be made he's a tactician to his boss' strategist?
Edited by 43110 on Jun 10th 2021 at 1:02:47 PM
The wifi here sucks
Yes to Cruella and Kaplan (I need to watch this move at some point)
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Ultimate Moral Compass
Kaplan. To think this was once considered the worst Bruce Willis movie.
to Kaplan. Sad thing is, for all its faults, Hudson Hawk is probably a better live-action Lupin III movie than the one we actually got.
Goku Black
Cruella and kaplan.
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
RIP Toriyama
I legitimately had a blast with this movie, great fun for a 90s flick
@43: Alfred's definitely got major competence and snarky humor to how he carries things out, but I'd say the issue is he's usually following direct orders, just in a really, really competent way. Like being dispatched to collect one of the artifacts from a middleman between his employers and Hawk...he slapsticks the asshole middleman for being disrespectful, kills him afterwards with a pun to remove a loose end, and extends great courtesy to Hawk himself, even helping him from a fall to the floor.
Personal cunning is where he might fall a bit flat, but if you do happen to watch the film, I'd be happy to see if you think there's a case to be made, and if so you can definitely handle him! As Imperial said, the film is almost like a Lupin III Americanized version, so it'd be topical to the burst of discussion on that franchise
Edited by Ravok on Jun 10th 2021 at 10:21:09 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Cruella and Kaplan
to Kaplan
Yes to Kaplan (best last words ever lol).
E3's coming up and I'll prolly call dibs on a few games. Gonna start with Tiny Tina's Wonderlands that got announced today.
I'll abstain on Cruella because I haven't seen the film - and I admit I really dislike the idea of making her sympathetic, but I cannot, in good faith, downvote because of that. Hell, maybe they make it work.
Ok, so it's been officially two weeks since Lucifer (2016) Season 5B was released, and no one qualifies. Michael does have some MB-level manipulation and planning, but he's a gigantic Hate Sink. Might be good for a Complete Monster, but hey, I'm not the one who reserved the series on the CM forums.
I gotta say one thing, though: If Lucifer Morningstar himself would be a one-shot character, than he would absolutely qualify for "Daniel Espinoza: Naked and Afraid".
Also reserving Season 6, btw.
EDIT: However, I also think this is the best time to update the Sinnerman's draft.
From:
- The decoy of the Sinnerman served as The Dragon to the real Sinnerman, the immortal Cain aka "Marcus Pierce", knowing him since childhood before going rogue for unknown reasons, making favors and murdering people who worked with Cain. Knowing that Lucifer Morningstar is the Devil and seeking to expose Pierce's true identity as both Cain and the Sinnerman, the decoy murders people who Lucifer blessed with favors for to get the Devil's attention. Imprisoning Lucifer in a room with reinforced steel so he won't break the walls, the decoy talks to him through a TV and keeps his glasses on so Lucifer cannot use his powers to reveal the decoy's deepest desire. After being arrested by Pierce and Chloe Decker, gouging his eyes out with a pen so Lucifer won't find out his desire, and tricking an entire precinct by forcing a woman to fake her own abduction, Lucifer kidnaps him and has the demon Mazikeen torture him. Moments before death, the decoy reveals his deepest desire was for Lucifer to kill him, and successfully outs Pierce as the real Sinnerman. In a world with celestials, the decoy manages to make his own existence an urban legend, all while still a mortal.
To:
- The decoy of the Sinnerman served as The Dragon to the real Sinnerman, the immortal Cain aka "Marcus Pierce", knowing him since childhood before going rogue for unknown reasons, making favors and murdering people who worked with Cain. Knowing that Lucifer Morningstar is the Devil and seeking to expose Pierce's true identity as both Cain and the Sinnerman, the decoy murders people who Lucifer blessed with favors for to get the Devil's attention. Imprisoning Lucifer in a room with reinforced steel so he won't break the walls, the decoy talks to him through a TV and keeps his glasses on so Lucifer cannot use his powers to reveal the decoy's deepest desire. After gouging his eyes out with a pen so Lucifer won't find out what he desires and tricking an entire police precinct by forcing a woman to fake her own abduction, the decoy's last words were revealing that his true desire was to be killed, with the killer being Lucifer specifically. Although dead, the decoy still succeeds in his goal, as Lucifer managed to find out who Pierce truly is. In a world with celestials, the decoy manages to make the Sinnerman an urban legend and keep questions about him unanswered for the rest of the series, all while still a mortal.
Edited by RK93 on Jun 11th 2021 at 10:50:20 AM
Erinyes, Artemis, Cruella and Kaplan!
to Cruella de Vil and George Kaplan.
Gotta love Jaws!
to Cruella de Vil and George Kaplan.
Welp, I don't need to - those are some solid potholes, and the page is good to lock!