During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
- Why do a cleanup?: This trope definitely exists and has a well documented history of use. That being said, it frequently gets misused to a character who meets one of the components, namely that they are smart, charming while not necessarily even being a villain, or create good plans. While these are components, there is also a certain personality required, not to mention that all of the above are required to be present for a character to be a true Magnificent Bastard. As the trope attracts interest, it unfortunately brings in a lot of misuse and I thought the best way to rectify this would be a Perpetual Cleanup Thread, as is being done and has seen success with Complete Monster.
- What makes a Magnificent Bastard: Below is a list of the individual components to make this character. Note that they must all be present, not just some, which has lead to frequent misuse:
- Must be intelligent: Goes without saying, to be a Magnificent Bastard, the character has to be smart in the first place and use their brain to work towards whatever their end goal may be;
- Must be a Bastard: While going overboard in how vile the character is can be detrimental, a key aspect is the Bastard part of the trope, whether the character is an out-and-out antagonist in the work, some manner of Villain Protagonist, or something in between, they at least have some unscrupulous qualities to qualify for this trope;
- Must not be too detestable: Again, there is a ceiling on how bad the character can be before they just become too nefarious, blocking out the Magnificent part of the trope. A genocidal racist or child-raping Sadist aren't going to make the cut;
- Think on their feet: In addition to being a Chessmaster, a Magnificent Bastard, if the character deals with situations in which their initial plan is ruined, has to be able to pull a Xanatos Speed Chess and at least come up with a competent strategy to make up for lost time, otherwise they fail for being unable to think in tough spots;
- Have charm: Even if they don't necessarily make every character they meet fall in love with them and can even be detested by others, the audience has to find an amicable social relation to the character, or they are failing to make the impact required for this trope.
- What to do if a character is listed on a page but has not been approved?: They need to be removed, all candidates need to come through the cleanup thread first. The character could well count but they need to be analyzed properly and voted on first.
- Do we list Playing With this trope?: No; as a YMMV trope, this cannot be Played With, so we only want examples that are Played Straight.
- What do I do if I want a character to be listed as a Magnificent Bastard?: The greatest success Complete Monster saw for its cleanup effort was from the invention of the effort post format, so, borrowing from that, a troper wishing to propose a Magnificent Bastard will create such a post in the following format:
- Begin by describing The work, this will help establish the setting the character is in and for the reader to understand what kind of a scenario they are in;
- Summarize The character's actions, this will provide a listing for readers to understand what they do and how it applies to this trope because charm and lack of smugness are so crucial, this is a good time to be incorporating exactly the flavor of how they operate to explain this;
- List circumstances in which the character must Think on their feet, these are times where a wrench might be thrown in their initial plan and they have to adapt on the spot or even come up with a new scheme all together, this is also a good time to explain how the villain reacts to defeat when they have to face it, a true Magnificent Bastard won't break down into tears at the thought of death, they should have known such a possibility could occur and be able to handle it with more dignity;
- The competition, similar to the Heinous Standard dealt with for a Complete Monster, this section is to deal with how successful the character is in carrying out their plans compared to other characters. While, as a villain, they probably are going to lose in the end, it is good to explain how other characters handle the same situation. There is no exceptionalism case to be made for this trope but explaining the variety helps the reader have a better understanding of the proposal.
- How do you know when the character's arc is done so they can be proposed? When their tenure as a villain or antagonist finishes. This could happen in a single Story Arc in an entire work, a single work of a franchise, or the whole series in general. We'll show lenience to Long-Runners with constantly recurring candidates or series with outstanding continuities (ex. comic books), and it's entirely possible to count in a work or two but not in general for a reason like Depending on the Writer.
- What about candidates evil because of external sources? Those Made of Evil can qualify if they show enough individuality and tactical acumen — in other words, they have the personality to fulfill the magnificence requirement. Conversely, those brainwashed, especially if they're a better person without it, may fail the individuality aspect and cannot count.
- What if they are under orders from a higher-up? Depends. If the boss created the plans down to the letter and the candidate is just following them, sounds like we should discuss the boss instead. However, if the candidate takes creative liberties with the orders, adds their own charm and flair to them, fills in holes in the orders, and/or actively deals with obstacles their boss did not talk about, the candidate shows enough individual thinking to qualify.
- What about Character Development? An MB is something a character can develop into... a nice person who plots well might become more morally gray as the work goes on and hits the "Bastard" criteria, thus making them viable. Likewise, a Smug Snake might shed their ego, become more understanding of the threat others pose and gain the personality or "Magnificent" criteria, likewise making them viable. Conversely, a character who looks like this trope might suffer from a Sanity Slippage or just get outed as not being as smart as they thought they were and become incompatible with MB.
- Can an MB be a good guy? Not in the conventional sense... it is required they have at least some dubious traits lest they fail the "Bastard" criteria. That being said, a character who pulls a Heel–Face Turn or eventually stops taking villainous actions is still fair game: as there was a point in time where they were both "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and they've merely adapted as time goes on. Now... if such a character begins showing other issues (i.e.: becomes prone to freak outs or starts getting outwitted) then they're compromising their Magnificence and will probably be deemed a cut. What's important is stylishly operating while at least for some time being willing to take at best underhanded methods to see a job done. A Heel–Face Turn in itself isn't a disqualifier but they do have to have been "Magnificent" and a "Bastard" at the same time and afterwards can't start slipping on the former front.
- What about characters whose stories can take different routes?: When proposing a character in a form of media that has them in multiple story routes. Said character must be consistent with their characteristics in all routes. (ex.: Can't have an example who shows promise on one route yet fails in another.) The only exception is if a later installment of the series confirms the character's actions which made them worth proposing are the canon route.
- Is there a timeframe rule like with Complete Monster?: Yes, please wait two weeks until after the work has concluded before proposing a character (again, usually using the North American air date). As is the case with CM, we want to give a reasonable time frame so that everyone interested in seeing the work has done so and can participate in the discussion without having anything spoiled.
- What about groups like with Complete Monster?: This is a point of divergence between the two tropes. While CM does not allow for a single entry encompassing more than three characters lest their heinousness for crimes becomes too watered down, with MB as long as they are treated as one "unit" it is acceptable to lump all characters provided they share acts of charm and intelligence.
- Can I propose my own work's character as a Magnificent Bastard?: No, this is a YMMV subject and the creator of a content is way too biased to be able to evaluate the criteria we're looking for without a second opinion taking over. That being said, you are more than welcome to encourage someone to consume your creation and if they feel a character counts, are more than welcome to suggest them.
- My example/edit has been approved, but the example subpage is locked! How do I get it added?: The moderators do not add examples to locked example subpages in the MagnificentBastard/ namespace directly. Rather, you need to do the edit to a sandbox page that follows the format Sandbox.MagnificentBastard<Name of the example subpage> (e.g for MagnificentBastard.Fullmetal Alchemist it's Sandbox.Magnificent Bastard Fullmetal Alchemist) and on a Friday, ask in the locked pages edit requests thread for the content to be swapped in.
Thread rules
When voting a troper must specify the effort post they're voting on and cannot merely vote on "Everything I missed" as in the past it has indicated the poster didn't read the effort post and is guessing instead of analyzing.
Resolved items
In general, a character listed on this trope is considered "settled". This means they should not be challenged unless information used to list them was incorrect or information was missed in the initial discussion.
However, when re-litigating a candidate, the same rules apply for when they were originally proposed. If they do not have five or more upvotes than downvotes for approval upon a re-litigation, including votes from the initial discussion if they do not change, then they are a cut.
This especially applies to the characters listed below, who have been discussed excessively and repeated attempts to get them listed/cut may result in punitive action for bogging down the thread.
Definitely an MB
- Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers: Any sadism Darkrai displays is limited in effect thanks to the game's nature and any cowardice which can be inferred about him is Alternative Character Interpretation about his tactical retreats.
- Avatar: The Last Airbender: Azula's Villainous Breakdown is undone in the sequel comic Smoke & Shadow where she regains her composure and ends up stable and in control enough to count.
Definitely not an MB
- South Park: The show's frequent use of vulgar comedy and mean-spirited humor leaves any potential candidates devoid of the dignity or charm to qualify.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:15:22 AM
I've watched the show and I have to say put Hiram in the waitlist, since his arc is still going and it will obviously a major plot in the 3rd season.
Also before I write up the Luteces, I was wondering on whether or not if Frank Fontaine from the original Bioshock game qualifies, since he was previously listed as one before he was cut?
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 21st 2018 at 10:16:20 PM
I think Fontaine's a bit too evil and has a pretty hard breakdown
Goku Black
I think Fontaine's death and what he does in Burial in sea pretty much destroy any chance of him counting.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I also believe Fontaine referred to the Asian doctor who worked with him as a “slant”...
Hiram could well shape into one, he’s been kinda like a GSV so far so we’ll see how he behaves when he’s at the forefront and has to deal with wrenches in his plan and the like.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
sorry, missed that. Yes there.
Edited by 43110 on Aug 22nd 2018 at 6:37:58 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
Anybody other than Lighty, Doc Sharp and G want to vote for my candidate in the previous page?
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Nami
Cutting from Final Fight due to a lack of context: Father Bella.
Edited by MasterJoseph on Aug 22nd 2018 at 3:13:43 AM
IPP Wick Check created.
Alright with that out here's the Luteces' write-up:
- Bioshock Infinite: The Luteces are two mysterious twins frequently encountered, before revealing themselves to have set the plot in motion. Encountered by Zachary Hale Comstock, Rosalind Lutece agreed to help him build his floating city, Colombia and in return Comstock would fund her research on alternate realities; with these resources she made a contraption that allowed her Alternate Self Robert Lutece to come into her world. Together, the Luteces helped Comstock kidnap Booker DeWitt's daughter, though Robert regretted his part in the kidnapping as well as the state of Colombia and the Bad Future coming after so he decides to plot against Comstock, forcing Rosalind to help him on the threat that he'll leave her if she doesn't. Though seemingly killed by Comstock, they have in fact survived and involved Booker DeWitt in their plan, guiding him throughout Colombia, while also convincing Daisy Fitzroy to ignite her revolution and let Elizabeth kill her ensuring the downfall of Colombia and Comstock. After the death of Comstock and the destruction of his city, the Luteces collaborated with Elizabeth to kill off all the other Comstocks in different realities before leaving her after killing the last Comstock in Rapture completely satisfied with their end results.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:37:15 AM
I'm going to have to remove my claim for the Danganronpa series, as the sound card for my computer has broken.
Namikoshi
The Luteces? Huh. Won't lie, reading their names here made me wary. Didn't think they were bastardly enough, but having my memory refreshed, I suppose I shall them. Stange, though, since I don't get much of a... "AH HOW COULD YOU!" vibe from them, but maybe I have screwed up morals? Yeah, probably. Yeah, they're bad enough, even if I can see their point of view.
Frank on the other hand is an utter piece of trash. I think he fails the magnificence part by a bit for many reasons already mentioned, but one of them I don't think has been is how Elizabeth has the last laugh on him after he begs her for the code phrase after he acted rather hastily. His death is ignominious and karmic.
Now, can anyone else count? I dunno. Andrew Ryan, Sofia Lamb, they got some of it down but a lot goes wrong for them. Andrew's whole dream falls apart and that's kind of a big deal. Sofia might be an easier keep, but she has her own issues. Other than them, no one else seems like a good keep.
Hey guys for those who don't go to the CM forum, I've mentioned there that a Hurricane is coming to the state where I live, Hawaii. It'll will hit the Big Island tomorrow as a category 4 before its hits the island where I live Oahu on Friday. My family and I are preparing for Hurricane and are hoping that we'll be okay. I hope that you aren't where I'm at and if you are, I hope that you'll be safe.
Edited by G-Editor on Aug 22nd 2018 at 6:47:00 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yikes. Please be safe.
Remain safe, G. I'm in Florida. I feel your pain.
I wish you safety, G!
Okay, so I was originally gonna do an EP for Shadowtrap before I wrote up Zarpedon so that they could go together, but as I was doing it I found a piece of information that's making me think twice, so I'm gonna hold off on him for a moment. In the meantime, here's Zarpdy-darp:
- Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel!: Colonel Tungsteena Zarpedon is the Commander of the Lost Legion, and the head of the assault on Helios. After her forces corner Jack and his Vault Hunters, forcing the latter to flee to Elpis, Zarpedon monitors their movements and attempts to sabotage their efforts to stop her at every opportunity, all the while showing them sincere respect and offering to help them leave Elpis should they no longer wish to fight. Zarpedon is a valorous woman who earned the love and respect of her soldiers, to the point where they will follow her cause even after she's killed, and her ultimate goal—to destroy Elpis with the Eye of Helios— is purely to prevent a worse fate from befalling the universe at large.
Writer for Pierce from Winter Soldier.
- Alexander Pierce is the US Secretary of Defense, a member of the World Security Council, and a commanding member of HYDRA, who have evolved from a Nazi science Cult to a facist conspiracy group dedicated to bringing about One World Order under their banner. Pierce had the Winter Soldier assassinate his old friend Nick Fury so Pierce can take control of SHIELD and Project Insight, intending to use the project to massacre hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of people, who could stand in HYDRA's way. Along the way he frames Captain America as a rogue agent who has to go on the run, kills his fellow members of the World Security Council, and shoots his housekeeper just for walking in on a meeting he has with the Winter Soldier. And he does all of this with calm, affable composure towards his enemies, attempting to make them understand that Utopia Justifies the Means.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Aug 23rd 2018 at 11:24:07 AM
Me in a nutshell (Coping with Depression)
And since he got more than 5/6 upvotes. Here's Namikoshi writeup:
Ranpo Kitan: Game of Laplace: Namikoshi, or better known as the original Twenty-Faces, is the pioneer of the Twenty-Faces phenomenon that happened in present. Growing up abused and bullied in his childhood years, he then made friends with the smartest boy in school, Kogoro Akechi, and teamed up with him to create a formula known as the “Dark Star”. When the abuse take a turn for the worse for Namikoshi, he then accelerates the coding of the formula that he and Akechi created and uses the coding to murder not only his abusers, but also the people who are abusing their powers. When Akechi found out the formula is a failed one and could kill one of them, Namikoshi then plans on faking his death by burning a decoy of him. In the present, it was revealed that Namikoshi teamed up with the medical examiner that worked with Akechi so that the latter could avenge her brother’s death. He then kidnaps Akechi’s assistant, Kobayashi, into the clock-tower and then plans to murder around ten children by letting them jumping from the clock-tower in five minutes intervals. Although Namikoshi is a man with a relentless methods, he did all of this so that he could change the society for the better future by trying to make the corrupted people, abusers and criminals who got off scot free repent for their crimes in the hard way.
I'll add this to the drafts. And @43110, You know the drill! Also, I intentionally spoil-tag Namikoshi's name considered that not only he also comes from the mystery genre. But he appeared in like the last 4 episodes and his existence is truly a walking spoiler so yeah...
Edited by ElfenLiedFan90 on Aug 24th 2018 at 12:24:25 AM
"Making screw-ups and mistakes was I ever really good at. Because everything I touch went to hell."
Goku Black
Oh right. This got lost, last page I asked if you'd mind if I did a rewrite for Emily Thorne from Series/Revenge but never got a response.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Go for it.
Has anyone EP'd Magneto from the X-Men films? Stryker is also a good candidate, I think. Not Sebastian Shaw, though, for much the same reasons as Frank Underwood.
Edited by DrakeClawfang on Aug 23rd 2018 at 12:23:47 PM
Uh to everyone I missed.
Yeah, I have been missing for the past week about. This is because I just started college, and did not want to stress myself too much. But tomorrow, I might give another effort post.
V
I actually think Shaw might count. But yeah, I get why someone would think that he doesn't.
Found this on Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas
- Mike Toreno, an undercover government agent who fakes his own death at your hands while infiltrating a drug cartel, only to show up out of nowhere with your brother's life over your head so he can get you to do some of his dirty work for him. Between having eyes and ears everywhere he needs or knows you will be, and talking you out of shooting him without even flinching, he definitely qualifies for the trope.
- Carl himself becomes no slouch, either. In addition to his Memetic Badass (see below) actions, he manages to become the Triads' Heavy and invoke Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu? on both the Loco Syndicate note and the Leone Family note .
While I am a big fan of GTA, I haven't actually played San Andreas, so I don't have any opinions. I know for sure that there are no other candidates , atleast that I am aware of. Dmitri Rascalov from the fourth game, while a good manipulator is ultimately way to smug over his actions. The Villain Protagonist of that game, Niko Bellic, I'd say isn't manipulative enough and even if he was kind of misses the trope by being backstabbed by Dmitri for basically the entire game. No one counts in the fifth game either, as basically everyone is satirical, deliberately annoying and unpleasant versions of real life stereotypes or even people. For example, Avon Hertz. Could have qualified for this if his goal was well-intentioned and he was more charming, but his character is intentionally annoying as shit and is essentially a parody on Elon Musk (skipping the fact that he wants to cause a genocide on humans, of course...).
The three protagonists are not smart enough to count. Michael manages to get away with a huge robbery, goes undercover and gets even more money from it and later even witness protection, is genuinely affable, but he has obvious anger issues and it is obvious that he isn't fully mentally well. Trevor... is as far away from this trope as possible, he's overly violent, psychotic, implied to be a rapist, eats people, etc. And finally Franklin, who is surprisingly friendly for a gangster, but doesn't do anything necessarily magnificent in the entire game and honestly misses the 'bastard' criteria. Devin Weston, the Big Bad is very similar to Avon; greedy and self-absorbed billionares who are constantly arrogant and use their positions to kill. Simeon Yetarian, a corrupt car seller who makes poor people buy his expensive cars and then demand money isn't near-smart enough and when Michael prepares to kill him he simply runs away in fear.
Just because I haven't played San Andreas doesn't mean I've watched playthroughs of it though. Now I don't remember how magnificent those already listed are, but I know no other primary villain counts. Big Smoke, while he has an Alas, Poor Villain moment at the end and is deeply Affably Evil, is dumb as hell and has very, very little magnificence if any at all. Tenpenny, while very manipulative, is an utter Hate Sink who is the definition of a Dirty Cop. There is that Motorcycle Club leader in the fourth game who I forgot the name of, but I think he may be a good candidate anyway due to how affable he is.
That's my thoughts anyway.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
This guy is listed in as a MB in the page of his work. He's too evil but in hindsight? He might make the cut.
Seiji Haitani from Zetman, I read that manga like...one or two years ago?
Seiji ultimately passes the Charisma and Smart passes with a extra pass in Bastard, he is a clear Complete Monster. However, I really don't remind any particularly disgusting crime of him, I remember a lot of Kick the Dog moments, but most of them were parts of his plan that he happen to enjoy instead of just random sadism.
Like, he seemingly commiting a particularly disgusting crime only to it be revealed fake and part of Seiji' plans to drive the MC to the Despair Event Horizon. I do an EP or just cut it if anyone have read it too?
Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 24th 2018 at 9:36:26 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Goku Black
You could ask G-Editor. There the person who approved him on the Complete Monster thread.
Weird example I found under Moral Event Horizon in Series/Riverdale:
Hiram was already a very shady person, but any Affably Evil and/or Magnificent Bastard pretenses are dropped like a hot rock in "Shadow of a Doubt" and "Judgment Night", when not one, but three major bombs are dropped:
I dont watch the show. But Is Hiriam a MB ?
Edited by miraculous on Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:51:12 PM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."