Base Breaking Character Cleanup

Ah, hell, I could give it a go. It's probably not very good, but...

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • Catra is a polarizing figure. She is loved by many for her complex characterization, relationship with Adora, and sympathetic brand of villainy which is considered interesting. (Not to mention the fact she's a major draw for many fans) That said, she also has quite a number of detractors, who feel that her fans (And sometimes the show itself) try too hard to excuse her actions, and she has received accusations of favoritism toward her and her storylines.

Any thoughts?

Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 31st 2020 at 9:54:34 AM

That seems good to me.

Optimism is a duty.

I don't think "the show itself" can be guilty of Draco in Leather Pants, as that by definition requires a disconnect between the work and the fans. So I'd cut that pothole.

I'd just shift it to "Her fans" instead.

I think we should keep the focus on how some fans react to the character, not how some fans react to the character's fans.

Alright, let's try this again.

• Catra is a polarizing figure. She is loved by many for her complex characterization, relationship with Adora, and sympathetic brand of villainy which is considered interesting. (Not to mention the fact she's a major draw for many fans and tends to attract apologists.) That said, she also has quite a number of detractors, who feel that her actions are excused too easily, and she has received accusations of favoritism toward her and her storylines.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 31st 2020 at 11:49:13 AM

My own modified write up:

• Catra is a polarizing figure. She is loved by many for her complex characterization, relationship with Adora, and sympathetic brand of villainy which is considered interesting, to the point where she is considered a major draw for the series. That said, she also has quite a number of detractors, who feel that her actions are excused too easily, particularly finding her Heel–Face Turn and Relationship Upgrade with Adora unjustified. She has also attracted accusations of favoritism toward her storylines.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Aug 31st 2020 at 3:01:09 PM

Looks good, minus the typo on Foe Romance Subtext. (...Which you fixed during the 5 seconds I typed this up.) The only note I have on that is that I believe referencing the events of Season 5 may violate No Recent Examples, Please!, as Season 5 is not yet six months old. I could be entirely wrong there, though.

Edit: It also bears mention the Unintentionally Unsympathetic cleanup did remove the example for Catra, because it was bloated and bashy.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 31st 2020 at 12:05:18 PM

The reaction to how her arc ends is extremely relevant to how her character is perceived, so if it's too recent to discuss it, it's probably too early to discuss the reaction to her character at all.

Perhaps we could write it so that it reflects the changing nature of the conversation around Catra, in that while the series was airing there was debate over whether she should be redeemed, and after the series ended there was debate over whether her redemption was justified/done well.

Edited by TheMountainKing on Aug 31st 2020 at 3:07:28 PM

Catra can be handled however you guys want; she clearly counts as far as I can tell, but Base-Breaking Character requires a six-month waiting period and Season 5, which plays a major role in interpretations of Catra, came out in May. (Coincidentally, Unintentionally Unsympathetic also requires that waiting period.)

I'm still mostly looking for opinions on the entries currently there. Hordak and Swift Wind definitely count, but I'm still not clear on whether Double Trouble is genuinely a Base-Breaking Character or the complaints leveled against them come from a Vocal Minority.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Aug 31st 2020 at 12:22:09 PM

I just noticed that someone expanded on a previously-acceptable example for Candace of Phineas and Ferb to make it overly negative. Unsurprisingly, it's the same troper who made a questionable addition for the new movie that I brought up in the Unintentionally Unsympathetic cleanup thread. Given that both times they potholed to Sadist, I think they're too biased in their editing.

SoundCloud

Revert and report that troper in Ask The Tropers.

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Took care of the revert for now. I'd write up something for ATT, but for now I'm stuck typing on a phone.

SoundCloud

Bringing up the following example from the film section of Catwoman:

• Base-Breaking Character: This incarnation of Catwoman. Either you'll think she's a surprisingly great, entertaining original character or an insultingly cartoony replacement for an incredible comic book character.

I don't see an issue with it. The wording needs to be a bit more specific, though.

It's far too vague to be useful and borders on "some people love her some people hate her".

From YMMV.Yu Gi Oh GX:

• Base-Breaking Character:
  • Jesse Anderson/Johan Andersen. The fans seem to be divided on whether he's the best character in the entire show who deserves his own spin-off or a bland, spotlight-stealing Marty Stu, with not much middle ground. He has more fans than detractors though.
  • Yubel. They are either seen as a very well-written, formidable villain, or just a creepy, unlikeable Stalker with a Crush. But similar to Johan, Yubel also has more fans than haters.

Sooooo, if they both have more fans than haters, doesn't that disqualify them from this trope? I don't particularly see lots of arguments over these two, anyways. Johan is generally considered a Franchise Original Sin for other best friend characters that join later in the show at worst and Yubel has been Vindicated by History for most.

"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."

The size of the sides can be flexible if they show an abundance of the other criteria, but as you pointed out they don't really seem to fight, so you can probably just remove it.

On a related note, I'm tempted to remove the comment that prevents anyone from adding Base-Breaking Character entries to Marvel Cinematic Universe, as it was made in the middle of TRS for the trope, before we argued about then agreed to soften the hard requirement that the two camps be of exactly equal size and that no middle ground exist at all, because they're ridiculously stringent to the point of even impossible.

A discussion in another thread about Tony Stark reminded me of how, even though he's very well-liked by "casual" fans and is the face of the franchise, once you go slightly deeper into proper "enthusiast fandom", he is by far one of the most controversial characters and a walking controversy magnet wherever you go. He fulfills three of the criteria (low middle ground, vicious conflict, sustained) with flying colors, but whether he fits the bill for "two factions of the same size" is a little more subjective.

Edited by AlleyOop on Oct 2nd 2020 at 11:49:54 AM

Getting a lot of entries in Fire Emblem: Three Houses, which I'm not convinced are true.

• Byleth, or rather, their Heroic Mime and Supporting Protagonist nature compared to past Avatars, has led to many debates over whether they're a step forward from Robin and Corrin or a step back. Those for these traits argue that it helps prevent one of the major criticisms of past Avatars; them becoming a Spotlight-Stealing Squad to the main Lords, and that leaving their dialogue up to the imagination prevents them from suffering from bad writing. Others argue that Supports with a Heroic Mime, especially in a fully voice-acted game, feel awkward, and that it leads to a lot of unexplored opportunities (in particular, Byleth's past life with Jeralt as a mercenary is vaguely alluded to in supports and the main story, but is never elaborated on due to to their silence). Of particular contention is the Silver Snow route, where Byleth has to carry the story without another Lord to interact with.
• Edelgard has enough fans and detractors to fill whole essays with their arguments, to the point it's reported that a substantial number of devs took her side during the development phase. Her fans tend to see her as a Well-Intentioned Extremist Tragic Hero, and either argue she's completely right in her assessment of Rhea as a villain, or at least see her actions as understandable due to her exclusive knowledge of history portraying Seiros and the church in a more negative light, which only the imperial lineage has access to, and that she makes several valid points about the stagnation and problems in Fódlan and solutions. Her detractors, on the other hand, say that her overall methods (with the war that she kickstarts being the most stand-out example) makes her no better than those she opposes, and being allied with those who slither in the dark is unforgivable regardless of her end goal. In addition, her own route never reveals that Edelgard's version of history is missing key details and thus never reveals Seiros's true reasons for antagonizing Nemesis. Other routes also don't reveal her more sympathetic aspects nor the circumstances preventing her from ever learning the truth. Also, the possibility that Edelgard’s war may not have been entirely necessary to bring about change to Fódlan only further drives the rift between those who stand by Edelgard’s actions and those who loathe them. Due to how polarizing Edelgard is, she's more often than not the center of most heated discussions about the game, which leads to a lot of misinformation being spread around about the lore and aspects of her characterization, making her appear either more sympathetic or nastier in the process. The revelations added on the Abyssal Library only further muddle things for both sides, as it throws most things learned through the story into question, and the Nintendo Dream 2020 interview where Word of God confirmed that Edelgard has the Crest of Flames so she would serve as Byleth’s rival (but not the main villain, as Thales is presented as the bigger threat and outlives Edelgard on that route) for the Silver Snow route (which was the first path developed) threw the fanbase into debate in no time.
• Rhea is in a similar boat as Edelgard’s. Her fans argue that she has kept Fódlan relatively peaceful for generations, and under her lead, the monastery is far more inclusive than the rest of Fódlan, showing that she’d like the continent to be more open and less Crest-focused. And while she can be ruthless, she’s normally not the aggressor. Further, they note that many of her actions were done to suppress war and chaos rather than for the sake of power. Her detractors, meanwhile, see her as a zealot who has kept Fódlan's culture stagnant for too long (or at least doesn't do enough to promote societal reforms or directly oppose those stopping them), spreading isolation, racism, and crest superiority through Church tenets and is willing to be downright merciless to those opposing her violently, even if they have sympathetic reasons like Lonato. Not helping matters is some ambiguity surrounding Byleth’s status as Sothis’s vessel, such as whether Rhea thought Byleth’s and Sothis’s consciousness would fuse or whether Rhea intended for Sothis to completely take over Byleth. Like in Edelgard’s case, how she’s depicted varies from route to route; players who played Edelgard’s route first likely only know her as an insane monster, as Rhea’s past and reasoning is never explored there. On the Verdant Wind and Silver Snow routes, however, she comes across as more tragic and sympathetic, as her past trauma regarding the death of her mother and kin is touched upon (explaining her behavior in the Holy Tomb), and does not undergo Sanity Slippage with the exception of Silver Snow’s endgame, where she can even be saved via an A or S-rank support, allowing her to reflect on her actions, acknowledge her wrongdoing, and seek atonement. Just like Edelgard, the lore reveals of the abyssal library scramble things further from her side of the events. Specifically, Rhea's slowing the technological advancement of Fódlan's culture breaks the base further: On one side, it's considered bad by her detractors and an inexcusable thing to suppress it at the cost of mankind's betterment. On the other hand, it’s viewed by her supporters as necessary (though not necessarily good) as the last time the Nabateans allowed mankind (AKA the Agarthans) to advance without restriction, they ended up being too prideful and went on to wage huge wars and massacred her kinsmen.
• Bernadetta. Detractors cite her as annoying, one-note, or overly loud, arguing that she runs a single quirk into the ground and "justifies" it with her backstory while also feeling that the game plays her trauma for laughs way more than it should have. On the other side, defenders cite her as a scarily accurate (and possibly relatable) representation of someone who went through parentally-induced trauma, stating that someone as mentally-scarred as her shouldn't really be able to grow and lose her mindset so easily, while finding her to be endearing despite all her flaws. Additionally, almost all her supports end with her either not suffering from anxiety at all (showing she can change as a person) or even actively helping people, and in Crimson Flower, her anxiety is far more downplayed after the time skip.
• Gilbert. His detractors are quick to point out his abandonment of both his wife and Annette, and declare that his self-loathing is selfish and entitled, especially for someone who also abandoned Dimitri in a time of serious mental need. It doesn't help that the game rarely calls him out for this, with the exception of certain characters like Annette and Dedue (who once saw him as a role model). On the other hand, his supporters enjoy his character as a Failure Knight, see his Heroic Self-Deprecation as the entire point of the Character Development he gets in his supports, as well as said supports in general, especially between people like Ashe, Dimitri, and Annette. Gilbert is especially disliked among fans of Verdant Wind, who find it frustrating that the player can gain support points with him (gifts, lost items, and faculty training) on every single route even though he's only recruitable on Azure Moon, while Judith and Nader aren't playable on Verdant Wind. Dedue fans are also uniquely prone to dislike him, since he effectively replaces Dedue as a unit and in the story in Part II even if you did Dedue's paralogue and thus save his life. However, it should be noted that these conflicting opinions are mostly among the western fanbase.
• Ingrid. Her fans like her for being the Team Mom and Only Sane Man among the childhood friends, as well as her Family Versus Career character struggle and friendships with Ashe and Dorothea, as well as that she is able to move past her prejudices. However her detractors find her bossy, hypocritical and controlling, especially towards people supposedly her best friends (and Claude) and dislike her for her racism towards people of Duscur, which is justified in-universe as a result of Glenn's death, but notably Felix (who also lost Glenn) does not share the same viewpoint post-massacre. Ingrid also is almost always portrayed as in the right of any conflict she's in (like kicking down the door to Bernadetta's room and forcing her outside is depicted as comical and not invasive and potentially traumatic) and she rarely gets called out for her behavior. Her hitting Sylvain several times for fairly minor infractions also doesn't help.
• Sylvain. His fans like him as the archetypal ladykiller-with-hidden-depths character, citing his sympathetic reasons for mistreating women and how he matures beyond it, as well as his loyalty to Dimitri and Felix and his perceptiveness (i.e. a budding talent in Reason and his suspicions that the Tragedy of Duscur wasn't what it appeared to be). His detractors find the reasons for his behavior less-than-sympathetic in comparison to other characters, and don't consider him to have convincingly grown as a character by game's end. (It really doesn't help that he's at the center of shipping wars between those who want him with Felix, Mercedes, or Ingrid.)
• To fans of the character, Raphael is a loveable Big Fun guy who provides moments of levity and acts as a Cool Big Bro to the other Golden Deer, and people who don't find him an incredibly Flat Character who doesn't contribute anything interesting to the story and all he does is talk about either food, his muscles or his little sister and never grows as a person throughout the whole game despite having an incredibly gimmicky personality. It doesn't help he's in a house full of flawed, dynamic characters, especially Claude, Lorenz and Lysithea.
• Dimitri. On the one hand, he has a lot of fans who appreciate his complex character and Character Development over the course of his route, which is considered the most popular of the four. On the other hand, he has more than a few vocal detractors who don't like how he's rather unlikeable until the end of Chapter 17 of his route, and never undergoes any positive Character Development on the other routes (especially since he dies unceremoniously on Verdant Wind and Silver Snow). It doesn't help that like with Rhea, many Edelgard fans are somewhat predisposed to dislike him.

In my opinion, the only ones who really fit the criteria are Edelgard and Rhea, as talking about either of them will start an argument. None of the other characters here are nearly as contentious in the fandom; even their entries just list why people like them or not, or mention "a few vocal detractors", which isn't the same as constantly warring sides of equal size.

...And yes, Rhea and Edelgard's entries are probably too long, but there was a lot of edit warring going on with them and I think the compromise was just listing out all possible reasons why one would have qualms with them or not.

Agreed that Edelgard and Rhea are the only really strong contenders. The other characters, while they may have fierce contingents of passionate fans or haters, and can certainly be controversial, usually aren't both at the same time.

Thought so, thank you. Cutting.

Edited by Apocrypha on Oct 5th 2020 at 6:23:41 AM

Bringing up the following example from Batman Begins:

• Base-Breaking Character: Rachel Dawes. Is she the moral center of the film and justified in not dating Bruce until his time as Batman is done, or is she a preachy character who seems to be in love with an idealization of Bruce, not the real man (and vice versa – Bruce is in love with an idealization of Rachel but not the woman herself)? This only upped with The Dark Knight.

This one was added to YMMV.Infinity Train fairly recently:

• Grace and Simon has a splintered reaction. On one hand, Grace is blamed for causing Simon to be the way he is as a sociopath while some agreed that it was Simon's fault for not accepting the changes. A third party argued that Amelia and Tulip were both responsible for everything since they affected all the book's story.

Book 3 didn't come out that long ago (it has been 2 months?) and even if it didn't, the example is confusingly written and I really have trouble figuring out what it's saying.

It's seemingly about Grace and Simon, which I am okay with, but then it suddenly shifts to other characters? And Tulip was largely uninvolved with the story, since Book 1 was mostly self-contained, so... what does any of this even mean?

BaseBreakingCharacter.Steven Universe:

• Steven received this during the segments of "Steven Universe Future". While a majority of the fans could sympathize with him, some of the fans thought that he's becoming a jerk towards everyone despite that it was all his fault for doing those things in the first place and not to mention his behavior to his father in "Mr. Universe" where he angrily blames his father for not giving him a proper childhood which divides the fans even more.

Yet another "example" that implicitly blames Steven for his mental issues, not to mention the atrocious grammar and punctuation. Is this even accurate?

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