Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
That is a lot of good work there Water Blap.
Perusing your results it is not a promising indicator initially. The numbers may balance out a bit more if you really want to crunch the rest of the wicks.
Do the wicks include the sub-pages?
edited 15th Aug '17 7:39:01 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
Added YMMV.Chaosic Rune to the cut list since the only example is a zero context example
Blapper of Water
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Since there's over 14,000 wicks, 6 wicks aren't really gonna affect the set (that's less than 0.05% of the total wicks). Also, the last number in the random set is 14,045, so if I were to tack on those six wicks to the end to see if they'd be added there's, like a hundred wicks between.
'Kay but I'm still including that in the wick check, which is why I didn't cut it yet.
Total Wicks in this Tentative Check: 59
- Good
- Good : 4 ; 6.78% , ( 80.00% of Good wicks)
- Kids' show, particularly notable : 1 ; 1.69%
- Bad
- General Misuse : 6 ; 10.17% , ( 13.33% of Bad wicks)
- Didn't scare troper : 16 ; 27.12% , ( 35.56% of Bad wicks)
- Used as Verbal Tic : 2 ; 3.39%
- Hypothetical : 5 ; 8.47% , ( 11.11% of Bad wicks)
- Sinkhole : 9 ; 15.25% , ( 20.00% of Bad wicks)
- Fridge Horror : 1 ; 1.69%
- Adult Fear : 0 ; 0.00%
- Turned out to be harmless : 1 ; 1.69%
- Played for Laughs : 2 ; 3.39%
- Work Description : 1 ; 1.69%
- Awesome Moments : 2 ; 3.39%
- Phobia : 1 ; 1.69%
- Kids' show, unnotable : 1 ; 1.69%
- Kids Shouldn't Watch Horror Films : 1 ; 1.69%
- Neutral
- ZCE : 5 ; 8.47%
- As a side note, I wanted to document cases that seem more like "Scarier In Hindsight," which would be whenever some event makes an even more scary than it originally was. This is separate from the Good/Bad/Neutral wicks and is really only here because I noticed it twice and wanted to document it happening.
- "Scarier In Hindsight"-esque : 2 ; 3.39% (of total wicks)
I might not be able to finish this for a few more days, but I'll chip away at it. These are so much easier when it's just 50 wicks, lol.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Just a nitpick, but the statistical power of a sample is not a function of the ratio between the size of the sample and the size of the thing sampled. 6 is still too low, though.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
True but Water Blap is continuing work and it looks like the general trend for the 59 some odd wicks is holding. It is looking like the whole thing needs a work over period with all the other problematic wicks like sinkholes and ZCE.
edited 17th Aug '17 12:25:18 PM by TuefelHundenIV
Who watches the watchmen?
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Something I thought of about this rule:
- If something is initially presented as scary in the work but then revealed to be something harmless and Played for Laughs, it's most likely not Nightmare Fuel.
Perhaps we could reword it like this:
- Nightmare Fuel should stick to you even after you're done with the work. If something is initially presented as scary but turns out to be harmless, it's most likely not Nightmare Fuel since The Reveal makes the scariness vanish.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
I think that is a good add.
Who watches the watchmen?
Hi
Yes, that's a good qualifier.
I would like to point out that My Little Pony Friendship is Magic has many pages of Nightmare Fuel despite it being an all ages kids show. Look at this.
Long running or not, I doubt it should have that many examples. (Not that kid shows aren't with Nightmare Fuel but this doesn't make sense, that's more than Madoka or Evangelion)
Seems kind of odd and probably fulled with misuse. Not that I care about MLP much, I don't watch it.
edited 18th Aug '17 3:14:31 PM by ReynTime250
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
That was brought up on the first discussion thread, MLP FIM is absolutely overflowing with misuse and exaggerations. There are so many things that need to be cut from these pages, and I'd be happy to do it as soon as the rules are in place.
Looking at other pages, there's Pokémon Sun and Moon, so I've decided to review some examples.
- At the cemetery, you can fight a Pokémon Breeder who uses a Pikachu. Not nightmare fuel by itself, but if you talk to her after the battle, she reveals that the grave she's next to is Pikachu's grave. Assuming she's not messing with you or referring to another Pikachu, you probably just fought a Pikachu's ghost! Not only that, her name is Ikue! Freaky...
Honestly this one could be considered decently scary if you're younger considering the contrast between this and previous games (Namely referencing death properly) but the last part is just meant to be a reference to the voice actor of Pikachu. I don't see how that makes it any creepier.
- Plumeria's eyelids are covered in black eyeshadow, so when she closes her eyes, she abruptly looks like she has no eyes.
I don't think this is all that bad. That sounds weird but not something that would give me nightmares. Minor case of the Uncanny Valley at best.
- This particular example crosses with Funny Moment, but on the third phase of Kiawe's trial, Totem Salazzle appears during the pose. Right behind the Alolan Marowak and Hiker. Sort of weakened due to her goofy expression like a photobomb, though.
Straight up cut, nothing more to say here.
- A bit of Fridge Horror comes in when you consider that the game hints that the reason that the Totem Pokémon are considerably bigger and more intelligent that your average 'mon is because of the effects from the Ultra Wormholes, making them basically cousins to the incredibly powerful and dangerous Ultra Beasts. After learning that, it's not too hard to imagine that somewhere in Alola, or maybe in the rest of the world, there are Pokémon that have absorbed some of the Ultra Wormholes' radiation and are now wandering around as giant, aggressive, and intelligent wild animals.
Move to Fridge Horror page for the game.
Wall of Text incoming
- The villain of Sun and Moon's true colours. Lusamine as a kindly woman who genuinely wants to help Pokémon? It was all an act. The real Lusamine is a deranged, psychopathic Yandere who is so obsessed with the Ultra Beasts that she is more than willing to destroy the world (or at the very least severely damage it) in order to live out her twisted fantasies with them.
- Becomes Fridge Horror taking additional info into consideration. Gladion mentions that Lusamine, in her state of mania, would constantly lord over all aspects of his and Lillie's lives. She'd tell them how she wanted things done, and even tell them what to wear. With that in mind, look back to Nihilego. Remember the theories that came about because Nihilego looks like Lillie? It's the other way around. It's actually Lillie who looks like Nihilego. Lusamine has become so insane that she's gone and dressed up her own daughter as the object of her obsession. In fact; when you reach Hau'oli City, Lillie outright says that she wears the clothes her mother always made her wear (presumably as a sign of respect), which could explain why she wears that large hat no matter how cumbersome it is. It might also explain Lusamine's own resemblance to Pheromosa (UB-02 Beauty), and maybe even Guzma's resemblance to Xurkitree (UB-03 Lightning); as after all, he works for Lusamine.
- The only sound that Nihilego and Lusamine make after merging is screaming in pain.
- During the battle with Lusamine when she is fused with Nihilego. Almost all of her Pokémon are depicted with evil expressions (Notably Clefable and Lilligant). This is hinting that Nihilego's neurotoxins have also infected her Pokémon. It feels extremely unnerving to see a cute Pokémon like Clefable glaring evilly at you. The only exception is Bewear, as it doesn't have any expression on its face to begin with. Which is already unnerving as it is.
- When Guzma realizes that Lusamine has gone too far and at one point experiencing a Nihilego momentarily infecting him. It's treated as akin to Demonic Possession, albeit without any direct control on the part of the Nihilego.
- After she loses to you for the final time, Lusamine slips into a rage and tries to personally kill Lillie. Only the cover legendary's intervention prevents Lusamine from murdering her own daughter with her own two hands.
- When you confront her the first time in her room, you see frozen cases containing Pokémon like Pyukumuku, Slowpoke and Pikachu! She tells you that they will be contained here for eternity.
- The worst part is; you can see a few open cases on the walls. And then you realize that every single square on the walls and even the CEILING is a cryogenic cage each containing a Pokémon. The horror is mitigated a bit by how peaceful the Pokémon look, and how in the postgame an Aether Foundation employee states they will eventually be freed.
- Her second encounter theme
is extremely disturbing, even when compared to the likes of music such as "Drought" or "The Old Chateau". It's a slow, off-kilter version of her Leitmotif accompanied by weird, "alien"-sounding noises and an eerie One-Woman Wail, signifying how dangerous her plans are and just how far she's fallen off the deep end.
- One of your first major warning signs that something is off about Lusamine is her face after the first Ultra Beast fight: it suddenly shifts into a very unnerving Slasher Smile. It's particularly nightmarish because it's so unexpected. The change is so abrupt and evil looking that it would send a Gengar running for its mother.
- The buildup to her transformation into her Motherbeast form. She releases a Nihilego from the Beast Ball, which slowly caves down upon her as the screen fades to black. The camera then cuts to part of a black, blobby mass expanding from the corner of the screen. It then shows two gelatinous, taloned arms emerging from offscreen, each with vertically aligned, eyes on the hands, then shows her face in profile; her green eyes are now a bright yellow, her hair has turned completely black with blond streaks, and her skin paler than usual, and she appears to be within a transparent dome. Then the camera pans up her body as she hisses at the screen, and zooms out to reveal her in all her glory.
- The Ultra Beasts. They are horrifying Eldritch Abominations that hardly look like Pokémon however they are actually Pokémon from another dimension, and almost all of them are seemingly capable of immense destruction, directly or otherwise. Everything about them just defies typical Pokémon design and even some logic. They're incomprehensible, and everything about them just seems... wrong, at least compared to actual Pokémon.
- UB-01 Symbiont (also known as Nihilego) is a jellyfish-like creature that possesses human like movements resembling that of a child, but it might not have a will of its own. Possibly meaning that it's being controlled by something else. In fact, the opposite is true, as it's a parasitic creature. When it finds a fitting host, it injects them with neurotoxins that boost their natural abilities and make them act wild in hopes of protecting the Ultra Beast. This fate befell Lusamine.
- UB-02 Absorption (also known as Buzzwole). Real Life mosquitoes are already the deadliest animals around due to their ability to spread deadly diseases such as the Zika virus. Now imagine facing one that is almost eight feet tall, and has Super-Strength to boot. Its concept art has it attacking and draining energy from a hapless Pangoro.
- UB-02 Beauty (also known as Pheromosa), emits a pheromone that can cause anyone nearby to be awestruck by its beauty, one that science thought was impossible. Although it's one of the least aggressive of the Ultra Beasts, it also hates touching anything as though it hates the very concept and wrongness of this world to it. It's also able to hit speeds of 120 MPH instantly. Basically it's a cuter version of a Terraformer.
- UB-03 Lighting (also known as Xurkitree) is perhaps the most alien-looking of the Beasts. While a bunch of cables stuck together in the vague shape of a humanoid tree is not too outlandish an idea for a Pokémon in and of itself, the fact that UB-03 has nothing that would even remotely resemble a face makes it look extremely off in comparison with most Pokémon. Not helping matters either is how it uses some of the wires to stand up, and the others as... arms, but the lack of joints make it unclear whether they're supposed to be meant to be limbs, tentacles, or both.
- UB-04 Blaster (also known as Celesteela) might have a cute face up close◊, but it's a thirty-foot tall living spacecraft that has been stated to burn down entire forests. Imagine seeing something like that fly over you in real life.
- UB-04 Blade (also known as Kartana) might be super small and much more passive compared to other Ultra Beasts, but even when it's not attacking, its indescribably sharp body is extremely dangerous to the touch. And when it's angry? It's been known to destroy entire steel buildings with a single stroke of its blade.
- UB-05 Gluttony (also known as Guzzlord). It's a huge, monstrous creature with a cavernous mouth that looks like it could be the Final Boss in any other RPG. It has, what are apparently two tongues coming from the mouth that act as its arms, and they're basically two large pincers. If you look a little closely, you can even see a second hole inside its mouth that looks like some sort of spiky gate, and it also has a spiked tongue. It has been reported to eat entire mountains, swallow whole buildings, and even swallow entire oceans. It is also implied that it uses everything it eats as energy; it's basically a living black hole, and everything it eats ceases to exist. And the worst part? Looker mentions that 10 years ago, his team targeted an unnamed Ultra Beast, which was not known to be an Ultra Beast at the time. A member of their team, a Faller, was set up as bait, while Officer Nanu and Looker had to kill it. However, Looker felt sorry for the beast and hesitated to kill it; this delay ended up causing the third member of the team (who was apparently very inexperienced) to be "done in" by the UB. Considering what the Ultra Beasts can do to someone, this is horrific enough, but there's more. If you bring Guzzlord to Wicke, she mentions that the International Police previously targeted it on a top-secret mission. That's right, an innocent woman was eaten by this monstrosity, and was converted to energy, leaving behind no sign of her prior existence. Sweet dreams... Of course it is also likely she was simply killed by accident by Guzzlord, as its explained that the Ultra Beasts go after Fallers in the belief that they can use them to get back to their home dimension, but the result was horrible regardless of Guzzlord's motivations.
- The Ultra Beasts are implied to have attacked the universe prior to Gen VI off screen, with Anabel falling into the post-gen VI universe muttering about defending the Battle Tower. The exact depth is of event has fueled immense speculation of what the full outcome was.
- At one point in the story, the player visits what appears to be the dimension that the Ultra Beasts originate from. It is just very wrong in comparison to the regular landscapes you've seen in Pokémon, and Lillie even mentions that breathing is a little difficult. There are also multiple Nihilego just floating about, teleporting in and out of view. On top of that, the... music has what sounds like a pulsing heart beat playing throughout.
- The trailer for the Ultra Beasts introduction to the Trading Card Game. A Stonehenge-like monument is blanketed in darkness by a fiery cloud, and a meteor drops right into the middle of it, destroying the monument. A red blood-like substance crawls out of the crater and over some nearby slabs, and the message "THEY ARE COMING" appears twice.
The Ultra Beasts are mainly a minor case of Cosmic Horror Story so them being on the page is fair but there's a part of it that mentions Fridge Horror. I would cut that but leave the rest as it is. Also Lusamine is a complete psycho so her being there is very fair.
- Tumblr users kipine and rarefaction came up with a diverging evolutionary line for Mimikyu. One evolution has Mimikyu shedding its disguise when leveled up with maximum happiness. The other one? Well, we'll let the description do the talking:
kipine: [T]he other [evolution] is my idea - Mimikyu doesn’t learn to love itself and the grudge and sadness is just too much. It turns into an angry and bitter monster, who’s powerful but very alone.
I would cut this and put it in the Tear Jerker page.
Other than that I'm not seeing any others as problems. The games were dark for an E rated title.
edited 18th Aug '17 3:33:32 PM by ReynTime250
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
That last one doesn't belong on Tear Jerker since it doesn't even actually exist. It's a purely fan-made invention. Just cut it outright.
Roger that, doing it now.
The other ones (Except Salazze's trial) I want more opinions on.
edited 18th Aug '17 3:46:22 PM by ReynTime250
Perpetually Confused
- At the cemetery, you can fight a Pokémon Breeder who uses a Pikachu. Not nightmare fuel by itself, but if you talk to her after the battle, she reveals that the grave she's next to is Pikachu's grave. Assuming she's not messing with you or referring to another Pikachu, you probably just fought a Pikachu's ghost! Not only that, her name is Ikue! Freaky...
Honestly this one could be considered decently scary if you're younger considering the contrast between this and previous games (Namely referencing death properly) but the last part is just meant to be a reference to the voice actor of Pikachu. I don't see how that makes it any creepier.
I'd add that ghosts being a type of pokemon and thus a staple of the series, the (implied) existence of one shouldn't shock anyone.
Blapper of Water
After looking at those Pokemon examples, I'm wondering why spoiler markup even works on the Nightmare Fuel/ pages. I hadn't thought about it 'cause I always leave "Show Spoilers" on, but this seems like a page that you should expect to find spoilers for the work.
edited 18th Aug '17 4:26:54 PM by WaterBlap
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
That is a valid point, especially since Nightmare Fuel specifically says this:
...
- Spoiler-tag anything.
Going by this rule, we already have the right to remove all spoiler tags from these pages. So go ahead and purge the spoiler tags wherever you see them.
Doing it right now, this may take a while.
EDIT: Took a lot quicker than I expected but it's now done.
edited 18th Aug '17 5:10:04 PM by ReynTime250
The Lusamine entry is legit (she's pretty messed up) but seems exaggerated and overly dramatic. The Totem Salazzle and Pokemon Cemetary ones can be easily cut.
Just another day in the life of Jimmy Nutrin
Do you mean you manually removed all spoiler tags from the page? Because there's a tool for that on Itty Bitty Wiki Tools.
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
Wow, this is really useful, wish I knew about that before I manually removed them all from the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure pages.
EDIT: The tool seems to sometimes insert � symbols or replace certain characters with that. Be sure to check for them before saving the page.
SECOND EDIT: The tool also leaves plenty of broken wicks due to sometimes removing the wrong closing brackets, removing it from a Pot Hole or external link instead of the ending of the spoiler tag.
edited 18th Aug '17 8:13:15 PM by Zuxtron
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
I keep forgetting about those tools.
So we want add or make any changes to rules proposed or does anyone have any other ideas or thoughts to add? It would help finish that part up so we can point to something more concrete and transfer it to the main NF page.
Who watches the watchmen?
Just been checking out the Madoka page, not so bad except the abundance of spoilers and that there's a picture for every single episode. But that's Image Picking problems.
edited 19th Aug '17 6:37:09 AM by ReynTime250
Blapper of Water
There seems to be Nightmare Fuel/ subpages for Recap/ pages. Should those be moved to the main works page's own Nightmare Fuel page? I noticed that My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic had some of this. (There's also a devoted clean-up thread for that work's YMMV items).
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel
I really don't think that a single episode is worthy of having its own page. Cut them, and move the examples to the show's Nightmare Fuel page.
So I did a tentative wick check of about 35 wicks.
Here it is. I want to make sure the criteria I'm looking at works before I look at the other 100 wicks for the check.
I think this tentative wick check supports most of the rules in the OP. For the rule about kids shows, I'm not always certain about whether it is or not, especially if it's an anime, so that may skew the stats a bit.
I think we may want to discuss Awesome Moments as it relates to this trope, not because there's proof of it being a problem (the wick check ain't done, yo), but rather because some things can be awesome and scary, and other wicks might combine the two. idk it's just something to pull from this partial wick check.
Notes and Things
Technically, every wick from something other than the YMMV/ or Nightmare Fuel/ namespaces are misuse (according to the Nightmare Fuel page), but I'm specifically looking for that which can help us determine (a) if these rules are applicable and (b) what direction we should go for this rule-making process and the inevitable clean-up effort.
NOTE: Two of the randomly selected wicks needed to be replaced or compensated for, so I used the wicks immediately preceeding them in the related page.
NOTE x2: Some wicks had multiple responses (e.g. "On the whole page there are good examples and bad ones"), but I only included the largest example or the response that was in the majority (e.g. by bullet counts). You can view all the responses in the "Evidence" section. The following responses had to be modified for not being in the majority for that particular wick. Note that this was already taken into account for the "Descriptive Statistics" section so you don't need to change those numbers based on this list.
Criteria
A Good wick includes those that did not count as a Bad or Neutral wick. That seems like a no-brainer, but the way we've stated the rules and such make that sort of criterion a logical necessity. I included Ascended Fridge Horror if it showed up, and I also included those wicks from kids' shows if it's particularly notable. There was a comic, for example, that had a particularly terrifying issue, and I'd say that would count since nobody could have expected it, etc.
A Bad wick includes those that are normal for Bad wicks (from How To Do A Wick Check): Verbal Tics, Sinkholes, Gushing / Complaining, General Misuse (defined as "no clear explanation as to applicability"). I also included, as Bad examples, any of the following:
A neutral wick includes a Zero Context Example. That's always how I think of them for these things since it could be a good wick or a bad wick but there's no context to figure it out. Also, if the entry was written in first person or something like that. There weren't many of these.
Descriptive Statistics
Evidence
EDIT: This folder was messing with the other ones. I'll need to break this folder when I post the finished wick check.
edited 17th Aug '17 7:13:44 AM by WaterBlap
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty